Revamping the failed Augment system

[Dairaion]

I have to be quick because im in a state of zen right now designing maps in Infinite and i don't want to ruin it by thinking about Warfrum. So new augments coming out, neat, great job guys high fives all around you did wonderful.

 

But why would we use them? Either they're for frames we don't have or we do have them and they're built for a specific form of gameplay that losing one of our current mods would ruin. So how about instead of the current mod augment system which is itself a holdover from the ancient and outdated system where warframe specials were attached to the mod slot system what if we, and by we i mean pablo or who ever else is doing the heavy lifting as far as coding goes, what if we instead of using the mod system the augments are items we can feed to the helminth and have it graft onto that specific warframe in return for resources similar to the sentient rock candy?

i because unless someone else has a better idea i think whoever put all that work in did it for nothing.

[trst]

What you're describing as a "failure" of the augment system is the entire point of the modding system itself.

You've made the choice to build/play a frame in such a way that you can't afford to slot an augment. Therefor the modding system has forced you to make a decision of running your specific build vs running a new build vs altering your build to accommodate an augment. That decision making step is the entire reason we have all the mods/upgrades we do.

Other players may choose to incorporate an augment into their existing build or may even make an entirely new build centered around the augment itself. Meanwhile you and those who will choose to not use the new augments have made the decision to not utilize those mods. And making the system one where you just slap the augment onto a frame for free entirely removes that decision making step.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Augment slot thread in disguise 🥸

[Merkranire]

I got no problem changing mods around

[Marvelous_A]

Some of the new augment mods are great, still most of the augment mod options isn't worth 1 mod slot out of 8.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

hoenstly, i think the newer ones don't look that bad. DE have gotten better at augment design over the years, and now instead of being niche at the absolute best, some augments offer a viable new way to use a frame, or are just a straight upgrade over the regular ability. (notice how in both Hydroid and Inaros' reworks, their most used augments were added into their base abilities?).

I get people wanting a dedicated augment slot, but no, modding is supposed to be something you actually put a couple of brain cells into, deciding what works for you and what doesn't, and if an augment is making you consider dropping another mod for it, then that means it's a good augment. 

[UnstarPrime]

13 hours ago, Dairaion said:

But why would we use them? Either they're for frames we don't have or we do have them and they're built for a specific form of gameplay that losing one of our current mods would ruin.

This seems like an argument for never adding anything to the game ever again.  No new mods, no new Warframes, no new weapons.  Any of that would displace or undermine the builds we've already created.

The point of Augments is to give you new ways to play.  If you don't want to use them, that's fine, you don't have to; they're optional mods for a reason.  But many players will be excited by new ways to play, because we like having new toys to explore and new ways to engage with the game.

With respect, I hope that helps you understand a perspective that you don't have, but many of your fellow Tenno do.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Some things in the game aren't for you. They are for someone else to use. 

[RyllusPurple]

yes

18 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Augment slot thread in disguise 🥸

 

[Aerikx]

6 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

The point of Augments is to give you new ways to play.  If you don't want to use them, that's fine, you don't have to; they're optional mods for a reason.

True but let's be honest, let's be Real honest...

A LOT of the Augment are bandaids to many frames and need to be reworked and the current Augment merged into the actual ability.

Fatal Teleport, Serene Storm (Yes it's powerful but his ability should be that way to begin with), Chilling Globe, Icy Avalanche, Biting Frost, Furious Javelin, Hall of Malevolence, Phoenix Renewal, Infiltrate...

I can go on...

At least 25% if not 50% of the augments in game are bandaids for frames. They should just be merged. 

Until that happens I'll always disagree with the "It's an alternate way to play." Argument. While yes that was the intention/concept. The final product came out very, very, different.

[trst]

10 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

True but let's be honest, let's be Real honest...

A LOT of the Augment are bandaids to many frames and need to be reworked and the current Augment merged into the actual ability.

Fatal Teleport, Serene Storm (Yes it's powerful but his ability should be that way to begin with), Chilling Globe, Icy Avalanche, Biting Frost, Furious Javelin, Hall of Malevolence, Phoenix Renewal, Infiltrate...

I can go on...

At least 25% if not 50% of the augments in game are bandaids for frames. They should just be merged. 

Until that happens I'll always disagree with the "It's an alternate way to play." Argument. While yes that was the intention/concept. The final product came out very, very, different.

There has literally not been a single compelling argument for how any augments are bandaids. All of those augments either enable different gameplay options and/or serve as ways to min-max a specific ability beyond what regular modding can do. Saying they should be innate is no different, while just as nonsensical, as saying that all power strength mods should be innate.

The only exceptions at all are the few augments that're genuinely too weak and unimpactful to justify a slot into any build. Things like Resonating Quake, Afterburn, or Mind Freak that tried to buff underwhelming abilities by only adding an underwhelming amount of damage onto them. In these situations the augments themselves need reworks/buffs instead of being rolled into the frame for no reason.

[Kaiga]

22 minutes ago, trst said:

There has literally not been a single compelling argument for how any augments are bandaids.

Just because you do not find something personally compelling, doesn't make it or the mountains of supporting evidence any less true. But let's go through some:

Baruuk is at about a third of his potential without the augment.

Nekros's augment(s) are so numerous and mandatory for the way he's played that you might as well add at least one to his kit.

Same thing with Atlas, Titania, Khora, Ash, Garuda, Styanax, Zephyr, and Hildryn. All of these frames are brought into meta strength with augments, so yes, they are being held up by the augment mods, i.e. a bandaid. We can debate every one if you like, there's more i haven't mentioned too.

The sheer amount of wasted mod space taken up by augments that really should have just been buffs, is a disservice to the player (hi Loki!). Even simple crap like iron shrapnel enabling the basic QoL of being able to recast iron skin while active on Rhino, speaks volumes to just adding them to the kit or at the very least giving them their own separate mod slot.

Edited February 24 by Kaiga

[trst]

3 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Just because you do not find something personally compelling, doesn't make it or the mountains of supporting evidence any less true. But let's go through some:

Baruuk is at about a third of his potential without the augment.

Nekros's augment(s) are so numerous and mandatory for the way he's played that you might as well add at least one to his kit.

Same thing with Atlas, Titania, Khora, Ash, Garuda, Styanax, Zephyr, and Hildryn. All of these frames are brought into meta strength with augments, so yes, they are being held up by the augment mods, i.e. a bandaid. We can debate every one if you like, there's more i haven't mentioned too.

The sheer amount of wasted mod space taken up by augments that really should have just been buffs, is a disservice to the player (hi Loki!). Even simple crap like iron shrapnel enabling the basic QoL of being able to recast iron skin while active on Rhino, speaks volumes to just adding them to the kit or at the very least giving them their own separate mod slot.

A frame having greater potential with an augment is kinda the whole point of augments and modding in general? By that logic mods should be deleted and every stat increase rolled into every frame for free.

No they're not mandatory. Soul Survivor was a neat utility in days of yore and is just a meme now needing a rework. Terrify can be annoying with enemies running away but that doesn't mandate the use of Creeping to remove a potential annoyance. Despoil isn't remotely mandatory if you use other sources of energy generation/value or just slot some ability efficiency. And Shield of Shadows isn't required when there's plenty of other ways to manage survivability.

And the rest of those fall under the same argument as with Baruuk. A frame being better with an augment is the whole point while at the same time none of those augments are required to take those frames into any part of the actual game.

Also the whole Rhino Iron Skin thing isn't an issue of the augment. Players want that QoL on Rhino for some reason and should be pestering DE for that functionality instead of pretending like it justifies augments being rolled into frames. Instead try asking for what's actually being asked for there with Rhino getting a QoL pass and his augments getting changed.

[Aerikx]

25 minutes ago, trst said:

There has literally not been a single compelling argument for how any augments are bandaids.

Oh?

26 minutes ago, trst said:

The only exceptions at all are

I'mma stop you right there. If there's exceptions then that means...

27 minutes ago, trst said:

the few augments that're genuinely too weak and unimpactful to justify a slot into any build. Things like Resonating Quake, Afterburn, or Mind Freak that tried to buff underwhelming abilities by only adding an underwhelming amount of damage onto them. In these situations the augments themselves need reworks/buffs instead of being rolled into the frame for no reason.

Ah...thank you for answering yourself and providing a compelling argument for me. 

You named a few that would have made my list but the list is EXTENSIVE...as ..

6 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Baruuk is at about a third of his potential without the augment.

Nekros's augment(s) are so numerous and mandatory for the way he's played that you might as well add at least one to his kit.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

If an Augment is MANDATORY on a Frame then that is a problem. Additionally and I'm literally quoting DE when I say:

"We're releasing some new augment mods for some frames. These should address some areas where players find a few frames lacking." 

Like...they even say it on the devstreams. 

Seeing as we don't have an Augment Slot (another strange hill DE has chosen to die on...) Then it's honestly ridiculous that players have to sacrifice to fix a frame.

What I'd give for Helminth to have a "Upgrade" feature where you permanently fuse an Augment to a Warframe's ability. But it costs a fully ranked augment, some resources, and some unique bonding agent or infusion you have to craft/attain. 

There....the players can fix the frames.

[trst]

13 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Oh?

I'mma stop you right there. If there's exceptions then that means...

Ah...thank you for answering yourself and providing a compelling argument for me. 

You named a few that would have made my list but the list is EXTENSIVE...as ..

Couldn't have said it better myself.

If an Augment is MANDATORY on a Frame then that is a problem. Additionally and I'm literally quoting DE when I say:

"We're releasing some new augment mods for some frames. These should address some areas where players find a few frames lacking." 

Like...they even say it on the devstreams. 

Seeing as we don't have an Augment Slot (another strange hill DE has chosen to die on...) Then it's honestly ridiculous that players have to sacrifice to fix a frame.

What I'd give for Helminth to have a "Upgrade" feature where you permanently fuse an Augment to a Warframe's ability. But it costs a fully ranked augment, some resources, and some unique bonding agent or infusion you have to craft/attain. 

There....the players can fix the frames.

Again an augment being weak isn't justification for making it an innate part of the frame. It's justification for arguing in favor of buffs/reworks to those augments. As well that and augment slots don't even solve the issue of underperforming augments. As you'd then just have an underwhelming effect rolled into a frame to be forgotten about or you have the same mod space problem but competing for a stand alone slot. In the end the only solution to bad augments is buffs.

And yet again no augment is mandatory for a frame to function. The only thing that makes an augment mandatory is the build/playstyle that a player chooses to use. And none of those are mandatory when every frame has numerous viable uses/builds/playstyles.

 

As for the Helminth idea that's close to the compromise I've brought up in similar threads. Making an augment innate at the cost of a Helminth ability swap at least makes it a trade off and adds to the whole decision making aspect of modding. While also preventing the issues that free augments and augment slots would create.

Edited February 25 by trst

[Aldain]

The problem with Augments imo is that they run the gamut of being insanely strong to being a singular band-aid/excuse to not improve a frame like with Loki's Switch Teleport Augment.

Augments just are so massively inconsistent in what they enable and the benefits they give.

[Xzorn]

Majority of augments aren't worth the mod slot. Plain and simple.

Half the ones that are worth a slot don't really do anything but make the frame more reliable in it's playstyle. Poor Nova got two augments that do the same thing. Voruna needs her 4th or she can't reliable use it. Nyx needs Assimilate now or she'll just randomly pop. There's only a handful of augments I use because they're actually good. I think that says something about augment designs and their value. Not to mention the time potentially wasted making them.

[Graavarg]

On 2024-02-24 at 4:58 AM, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Augment slot thread in disguise 🥸

Great!

I want an augment slot!!! Or even more than one.

[Reitrix]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

The problem with Augments imo is that they run the gamut of being insanely strong to being a singular band-aid/excuse to not improve a frame like with Loki's Switch Teleport Augment.

Augments just are so massively inconsistent in what they enable and the benefits they give.

A simple solution is just moving the lesser augments to Helminth as upgrades. 

An easy example of an Augment that is absolutely not worth the mod slot is for Well of Life. The ability heals everyone while active, and EV restores energy to the squad. 
So what value is there at all in wasting a mod slot to generate health orbs and a singular Energy Orb?
There is some niche use for the augment when subsumed to other frames specifically for its interaction with Equilibrium, But it has nearly no value to Trinity herself. 

But as an upgrade to the base ability from Helminth? Sure, I'd pay some resources for it to just passively make Well of Life a bit less crap. But a Mod Slot? Hell no.  
Trinity isn't even alone in having augments that are just not worth the mod slot sacrifice. 
So much so that DE felt it necessary to go back and buff the hell out of some of those augments to make them appealing to use. That alone is evidence that a revamp to ability augments as a system is something they really should look into. 

If they're dead set on leaving ALL augments as mods, Then they need to go to every single augment in the game and make them all strong enough to be worth sacrificing a mod slot for.

[Hexerin]

14 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

A simple solution is just moving the lesser augments to Helminth as upgrades. 

An easy example of an Augment that is absolutely not worth the mod slot is for Well of Life. The ability heals everyone while active, and EV restores energy to the squad. 
So what value is there at all in wasting a mod slot to generate health orbs and a singular Energy Orb?
There is some niche use for the augment when subsumed to other frames specifically for its interaction with Equilibrium, But it has nearly no value to Trinity herself. 

But as an upgrade to the base ability from Helminth? Sure, I'd pay some resources for it to just passively make Well of Life a bit less crap. But a Mod Slot? Hell no.  
Trinity isn't even alone in having augments that are just not worth the mod slot sacrifice. 
So much so that DE felt it necessary to go back and buff the hell out of some of those augments to make them appealing to use. That alone is evidence that a revamp to ability augments as a system is something they really should look into. 

If they're dead set on leaving ALL augments as mods, Then they need to go to every single augment in the game and make them all strong enough to be worth sacrificing a mod slot for.

Any Trinity player with even a single functional brain cell will inject something else entirely over Well of Life. Well of Life is a slow trickle heal over time, and that's assuming you can even find an enemy to target with it in the first place (more and more enemies are becoming immune to it as time goes on). Why bother with that jank, when you can just hit Blessing for a total full restore of health (and shields), along with a bit of DR, for your whole team that requires no interaction from them?

Personally, of late I've been running Spectrorage. Trinity's main weakness is a lack of ability to deal with crowds, making her extremely weak for mission types like Defense. Spectrorage gives her a solid way to shore up that weakness, and I've found it to be extremely effective at this. Prior to Spectrorage, I was using Nourish for its damage (didn't have access to other sources of damage buffing at the time), with the energy gain boost just being nice QoL to reduce EV spam.

Anyways, side tangent over.

[Aerikx]

5 hours ago, trst said:

And yet again no augment is mandatory for a frame to function.

*Nekros and Frost's entire kit raise their hand in objection* 

Can they be played without the augments? Obviously. But once the augments are attainable just like Serration, Hornet Strike, etc....they become mandatory.

But because they could be played without them they aren't needed? By that logic all weapons are optional too. 

5 hours ago, trst said:

While also preventing the issues that free augments and augment slots would create.

I want to know how an Augment Slot causes issues. Seriously. How does freeing up a mod slot, and encouraging players to use augments a bad thing? 

The fact folks are so opposed to the fixes to their favorite characters is also mind boggling. 

What triggers me about the augments is...

The Augment is a fix for the abilities...so DE programmed in a fix but instead of buffing/fixing the ability, they release it a mod that so weak it isn't worth being used as a coaster. 

Just say it was a buff update the ability and call it a day. 

[Reitrix]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Any Trinity player with even a single functional brain cell will inject something else entirely over Well of Life. Well of Life is a slow trickle heal over time, and that's assuming you can even find an enemy to target with it in the first place (more and more enemies are becoming immune to it as time goes on). Why bother with that jank, when you can just hit Blessing for a total full restore of health (and shields), along with a bit of DR, for your whole team that requires no interaction from them?

Personally, of late I've been running Spectrorage. Trinity's main weakness is a lack of ability to deal with crowds, making her extremely weak for mission types like Defense. Spectrorage gives her a solid way to shore up that weakness, and I've found it to be extremely effective at this. Prior to Spectrorage, I was using Nourish for its damage (didn't have access to other sources of damage buffing at the time), with the energy gain boost just being nice QoL to reduce EV spam.

Anyways, side tangent over.

My preference is Roar with Piercing Roar augment and max cast speed. On demand roomwide AoE knockdowns is fun. Dont need to heal folks if the enemies cant even  shoot lol. It even comes with some bonus damage buffs XD

But thanks for proving my point lol. Pool of Life as an augment should really make Trinity players actually want to use Well of Life ... But here we are. The ability sucks to the point that removing it is a no brainer and the augment is so pointless that even if you somehow dont subsume it off, still isnt worth the mod slot. 

Some augments really should just be either baseline to the ability, or at least the player given the choice in having it be an upgrade done at Helminth. 
Pool of Life was just the one i used as an example of just how worthless augment mods can get.

[Waeleto]

On 2024-02-24 at 5:58 AM, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Augment slot thread in disguise 🥸

Good because we need an augment slot

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

4 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Great!

I want an augment slot!!! Or even more than one.

 

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

Good because we need an augment slot

No we don't, you just want more power creep. We play just fine, maybe even way too strong, with an augment taking a slot. 

[trst]

2 hours ago, Aerikx said:

*Nekros and Frost's entire kit raise their hand in objection* 

Can they be played without the augments? Obviously. But once the augments are attainable just like Serration, Hornet Strike, etc....they become mandatory.

But because they could be played without them they aren't needed? By that logic all weapons are optional too. 

No, still not mandatory.

Frost doesn't require extra crit on Frozen enemies, doesn't need extra cold damage on weapons, doesn't need Ice Wave to slow enemies, doesn't need to freeze enemies that enter Snow Globe, and doesn't require Overguard.

And the reasons for that being: The passive augment is too conditional and unnecessary with how overpowered weapons are plus Cold status buffs crits. Freeze still serves as a way to detonate Snow Globe and the damage has the same issue as the passive. Ice Wave doesn't require an additional slow when Cold status already does that. Snow Globe still serves it's purpose of stopping enemy damage without the added freeze. And he doesn't need Overguard when there's other ways for him to have survivability.

 

And Nekros doesn't need a ranged revive, doesn't require a slow on already CC'd enemies, doesn't need Desecrate to cost health, and doesn't require DR.

And again the reasons being: Revives are an outdated system with how rare downs are and how plentiful instant revives are. Terrify already reduced armor and fleeing enemies die quickly enough to not require the slow. Desecrate's energy cost is manageable with energy generation methods and/or just running efficiency. And he doesn't need DR when again there's other ways to get survivability.

 

These are all entirely optional because their abilities still serve their purposes while their augments are adding effects you can get elsewhere or are unnecessary due to being underpowered and/or are just outdated. And just because some players can't/refuse to play without these effects doesn't make them mandatory to the frame itself.

It's just like whenever someone claims that shield gating is mandatory. Is it strong? Yes. Is it overpowered when fully abused? Absolutely yes. Is it mandatory? No, case in point being that players were doing level cap content years before shield gating was even a concept. Just because some players want to use the most broken/lazy option for something doesn't magically make it mandatory.

3 hours ago, Aerikx said:

I want to know how an Augment Slot causes issues. Seriously. How does freeing up a mod slot, and encouraging players to use augments a bad thing? 

The fact folks are so opposed to the fixes to their favorite characters is also mind boggling. 

What triggers me about the augments is...

The Augment is a fix for the abilities...so DE programmed in a fix but instead of buffing/fixing the ability, they release it a mod that so weak it isn't worth being used as a coaster. 

Just say it was a buff update the ability and call it a day. 

It creates the issue of adding unnecessary powercreep. Plus it doesn't resolve the issue of underperforming augments and even adds incentive for DE to put off buffing them even longer. As well it creates a considerably power disparity between frames with how long it tends to take for them to get any augments like in Caliban's case.

Abilities don't require augments in the first place. As well if an ability itself is underperforming then the correct argument would be to ask for buffs to that frame itself instead of asking for an entirely separate system to be reworked; the same goes for underperforming augments. And even if the desired buff is to make an augment innate there still needs to be a new augment to replace it.