Warframe in 2024, is it really worth it?

[Bravoryus]

Hello tennos, my name is Bravoryus.
The first time I played Warframe was in 2013 when it was released in March of that year.
I'm a player from Brazil, so my English is not perfect.

Everyone who is really dedicated to playing Warframe knows how the mechanics of this game work, it is exactly focused on farming, or gathering items to advance in your game.
Warframe changed its engine, graphics, and platforms a lot and significantly.
This is a notable point within the game, seeking to expand it to new players.
What captivates me about this game is its story, whether you like it or not, Warframe is a story RPG.
The evolution of your main character until the end of the game is a great journey if you pay attention to your game, but when this journey ends, what do you do?

You already become significant in the games, having items that make you stronger, and a new challenge presents the so-called steel route.
Then begins the decline of everything you did in the game, the game has a big problem with becoming stagnant, forcing the player to simply stay, farming, or gathering items, the main item of this game being ENDO.
Yes, whether you understand it or not, ENDO is the main feature of this game,
There's no point in having the best weapon, best warframe, best mods, if you don't have ENDO to level up your mods, and the ENDO mechanism is ridiculous, you spend around 40 thousand ENDOS to level up 1 mod, and you pass almost 1 hour in arbitration to farm between 5 or 6 thousand endo, that is, for you to simply upload a MOD in this game you spend almost 10 hours of gameplay just farming, that is if you are playing in cooperative mode, with a good team.
that every day it is becoming very rare to have a closed team.
Furthermore, it is almost impossible to play the steel course alone, or try to farm alone. The game is cooperative, the developer's intention was to make a game to play with friends or other players, but in Warframe this is what happens least often.
Another question is credits, what are they really for?
It practically serves as nothing significant, it doesn't buy space in your slots, it doesn't buy significant items.
I believe that platinum is making the game P2W, anything to make you stronger either spend 10 hours playing, or buy platinum and become strong in 10 minutes.
Therefore, this game is not free, it is platinum.
This is my third account in this game, I always played and gave up at a certain point, at this point

April 2024 I started playing again, I was in doubt between Warframe and the released Dragon Dogmas 2, I believe that both games suffer from the same problem, but Warframe can survive in 2024 with an evolution in its farming and coins mechanism. Attracting new players and mainly making the player stay in the game.

[Mr.Holyroller]

Play it if piques your interest.
The game is free.
You'll never get a pure experience doing anything if all of it is weighted on people telling you if you should or shouldn't play it.
It has the best F2P system of any free to play game, but the game is just a very aesthetically pleasing collect-a-thon 

 

[Chewarette]

Endo is barely a problem really...

Warframe has problems, but Endo ain't one

[Rathalio]

41 minutes ago, Bravoryus said:

I believe that platinum is making the game P2W, anything to make you stronger either spend 10 hours playing, or buy platinum and become strong in 10 minutes.
Therefore, this game is not free, it is platinum.

Your are describing "pay to fast" or "pay to skip". And this clearly the opposite of "pay to win". Warframes is game that involves a lot of farming. If you don't like spending time to gather resources at all, the game just isn't for you. Yet, you still can't call it P2W because you don't like farming. Farming is a core element of this game. And when you get to the point you realise you need to farm for some endo, it's just the beginning. That's far from being the one and only thing you need to get to play the game, and at some point you'll have enough endo for everything anyways. Then you'll need another resource for other activities in the game. If you really can't stand this, I can see why you stopped playing and remade an account twice already, you just don't like the core gameplay of the game. Farming resources is always one of the reasons why you go on a mission and do something on Warframe.

[UnstarPrime]

22 hours ago, Bravoryus said:

I believe that platinum is making the game P2W, anything to make you stronger either spend 10 hours playing, or buy platinum and become strong in 10 minutes.  Therefore, this game is not free, it is platinum.

It's both.

• Warframe is a free-to-play game because you can acquire everything except for cosmetics by simply playing the game.
• Warframe is a pay-to-win game where you can give the developers money to obtain power now instead of having to earn it in the game.

These terms are not mutually exclusive.

While pay-to-win is generally a (justifiably) maligned term, I don't think it's innately bad, especially not in a free-to-play game.  There are better and worse ways to monetize power, and in my opinion Warframe overall does it fairly well.

For example, let's say I want Dante.  I could pay for him, or I could farm him.  And I feel like it's a pretty non-controversial statement to say that Dante's farm is very fast and requires playing a game mode that is one of the most beloved in Warframe.  So I can earn Dante and have fun while doing so, without paying a cent.  You could buy Dante, but there's far from any need to.

Which isn't to say that there aren't certain farms in Warframe that are terrible.  The drop rates for the Tome mods make acquiring them in-game a tedious grind, and statistical analysis of these drop rates show that most players are better off simply buying these mods from the market because of how lengthy that grind is.  It's fairly obvious that most players will stop having fun long before they've earned all of the Tome mods, which makes this farm feel a bit unfair, like it's intentionally pressuring players to purchase the mods in the market.

In my estimation, however, these terrible farms are the exception to the rule.  And in general, the ability for players to trade just about anything actually reduces demand and thus the price of earnable goods.  If I don't like a specific farm but another player does, we can trade and everyone wins.

Endo and credits are a bit different than these other farms I've already mentioned, in that these are evergreen rewards.  Most players will never reach a place where they can no longer benefit from additional Endo and credits, especially because as new content is released, more Endo and credits will be needed to fuel new rewards.  And beyond that, the other major difference is that no matter what activity you are doing, you are probably earning both Endo and credits while doing it (especially because extra mods can be converted into Endo or credits).  Thus, there's generally no need to specifically farm Endo and credits.  If you get a new mod or something and you love it so much that you need to level it now, sure, there are some good farms that can help you with that.  But generally speaking, I've found that a far better strategy is to just be prudent with how you spend your resources.  I have plenty of Primed mods that I haven't leveled up because I don't need to use them.  And the more I play the game in any way, the more Endo and credits I accumulate to spend on the mods I actually do want to use.  It's a marathon, not a sprint; so pace yourself!

Edited April 18 by UnstarPrime
forgot the word "never" in the last paragraph...totally changed the meaning without it!

[Smiky]

1 hour ago, Bravoryus said:

I believe that platinum is making the game P2W, anything to make you stronger either spend 10 hours playing, or buy platinum and become strong in 10 minutes.

Therefore, this game is not free, it is platinum.

You know you can farm prime parts from relics right? Then sell them on market for plat and then buy whatever max rank mods? You don't have to buy plat packs from games website...

[Lord_Drod]

Endo is hardly the main feature of this game.  Most of the endo cost is just on the last rank or two which doesn't really provide that much performance increase.  You shouldn't really max mods early on and only invest in mods you know are going to be used all the time.  Endo is awarded in so many different ways now, railjack, bounties, selling all your duplicates etc.  If you play the game doing other stuff you enjoy, the endo accumulates naturally.  Just go at your own pace and don't feel rushed to max mods or get to a certain point quickly and you'll enjoy it a lot more.

[PrideB4TheFall]

To get over the endo hurdles sell your duplicate mods.

ps. Don't use your plat for anything other than inventory slots.

[TennoPain]

Hi I am an OLD fart who was here from the start 

No its not pay to win becasue there is no win and there is no WALL that you have to invest your money into 

Yes the GRIND is harder (Kuva,Sister) but no its not Pay to win because there is NO win if you can obtain everything in game with time.

Power is not win you can obtain everything and you dont have to grind 10h (but if you play warframe and cant understand reality of things you can run in circles forever) 

TBH I dont think OP understands what Pay to win means its weird since u state you are one of us from the start and by this age you should be able to know what pay to win means.

THERE IS NO WALL (well you know there is that guy) but no NO WALL.

 

[quxier]

3 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

4 hours ago, Bravoryus said:

I believe that platinum is making the game P2W, anything to make you stronger either spend 10 hours playing, or buy platinum and become strong in 10 minutes.  Therefore, this game is not free, it is platinum.

It's both.

• Warframe is a free-to-play game because you can acquire everything except for cosmetics by simply playing the game.
• Warframe is a pay-to-win game where you can give the developers money to obtain power now instead of having to earn it in the game.

These terms are not mutually exclusive.

While pay-to-win is generally a (justifiably) maligned term, I don't think it's innately bad, especially not in a free-to-play game.  There are better and worse ways to monetize power, and in my opinion Warframe overall does it fairly well.

I think usage of Pay to win with non competitive game like Warframe is not good. Even in player-vs-enviroment games it's still not great.

Pay to win is when you are buying power much faster than other player can earn (in game). The key aspect is speed. You are getting so big advantage over non-paying player that you are "winning". Non-paying player cannot or it's VERY hard to rise to paying-player "strength". So taking aside that warframe's power level is more nuanced (e.g. old frame can beat newer frame), there is no "winning" if you are "just faster".

Why not just use "micro transaction" or "pay to SKIP"?

5 hours ago, Bravoryus said:

April 2024 I started playing again, I was in doubt between Warframe and the released Dragon Dogmas 2, I believe that both games suffer from the same problem, but Warframe can survive in 2024 with an evolution in its farming and coins mechanism. Attracting new players and mainly making the player stay in the game.

As many said, game is grind (aka GrindFrame). You grind for endo, you grind for Frame/weapon X, You grind for cats. So on and so forth. If you don't like that aspect then it's not game for you. If you are ok with grind, grind still can be bad sometimes. Sometiems grind is just long. Sometimes randomness makes certain items to not drop. Sometimes you have time gate (e.g. Wait X weeks to get item Y).  In general it's from almost free (aka no grind needed), through some grind, ending at "I will just buy it" horrible grind.

 

As for game itself, it expanded A LOT. You have 50+ frames, hundreds if not thousand of weapons, many companions (but I just use 1, lol), Necramech, railjack, Duviri, melee slams (some recent update make your slam damage big), game modes, ways to play so on and so forth.

Now new players (or old too) can start with Duviri. It's more melee focused so it may be more fun for some time. You can go back to "normal gameplay" somehow (I don't remember details). And you can earn frames, augments and some other stuff. It's good if e.g. boss don't give you all frame's parts. It's however timegated (1 frame per week, 3 frames to pick from per week, changes after each week, only part of all frames).

[vixenpixel]

30 minutes ago, quxier said:

As many said, game is grind (aka GrindFrame).

Warfarm is another good one :)

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Bravoryus:

Hello tennos, my name is Bravoryus.
The first time I played Warframe was in 2013 when it was released in March of that year.
I'm a player from Brazil, so my English is not perfect.

Everyone who is really dedicated to playing Warframe knows how the mechanics of this game work, it is exactly focused on farming, or gathering items to advance in your game.
Warframe changed its engine, graphics, and platforms a lot and significantly.
This is a notable point within the game, seeking to expand it to new players.
What captivates me about this game is its story, whether you like it or not, Warframe is a story RPG.
The evolution of your main character until the end of the game is a great journey if you pay attention to your game, but when this journey ends, what do you do?

You already become significant in the games, having items that make you stronger, and a new challenge presents the so-called steel route.
Then begins the decline of everything you did in the game, the game has a big problem with becoming stagnant, forcing the player to simply stay, farming, or gathering items, the main item of this game being ENDO.
Yes, whether you understand it or not, ENDO is the main feature of this game,
There's no point in having the best weapon, best warframe, best mods, if you don't have ENDO to level up your mods, and the ENDO mechanism is ridiculous, you spend around 40 thousand ENDOS to level up 1 mod, and you pass almost 1 hour in arbitration to farm between 5 or 6 thousand endo, that is, for you to simply upload a MOD in this game you spend almost 10 hours of gameplay just farming, that is if you are playing in cooperative mode, with a good team.
that every day it is becoming very rare to have a closed team.
Furthermore, it is almost impossible to play the steel course alone, or try to farm alone. The game is cooperative, the developer's intention was to make a game to play with friends or other players, but in Warframe this is what happens least often.
Another question is credits, what are they really for?
It practically serves as nothing significant, it doesn't buy space in your slots, it doesn't buy significant items.
I believe that platinum is making the game P2W, anything to make you stronger either spend 10 hours playing, or buy platinum and become strong in 10 minutes.
Therefore, this game is not free, it is platinum.
This is my third account in this game, I always played and gave up at a certain point, at this point

April 2024 I started playing again, I was in doubt between Warframe and the released Dragon Dogmas 2, I believe that both games suffer from the same problem, but Warframe can survive in 2024 with an evolution in its farming and coins mechanism. Attracting new players and mainly making the player stay in the game.

as a new starter? well... it couldn't be more pointless. I've been playing since 2013 and have all the items. the best ones are maxed with formas. and in the last few days i have spent over 6k platinum on formas etc so i can play sp circuit and lab weekly.

I can't recommend the game to anyone. There's no fun here with rubbish gear. Unless you have goals in life like a snail

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Warframe is the kind of game, that knows what it is doing, and does that well, even if what it is trying to do, is a little odd compared to most other games. Which also means, that players that are good at picking up and learning the game and its general systems, if they decide that they like them? You can be pretty efficient, if you don't like its deal, which is going to be common, better to avoid. There can be some friction/conflict that occurs if a player doesn't pick up the broad vibe of the game well, or fast enough, and or they do, and they like it, but their enjoyment/appreciation is sort of split or conditional, and counter weighed by what they find as many negatives/issues with the game they hope re fixed/changed. 

Like Endo, Credits and Platinum are essentially the same thing, they just have some important differences, that influence how different players may interact with them. Their are lots of smaller strategies and approaches that can either diminish or amplify such interactions. As a small example, I personally never had issues with Credits or Endo, because in games I am pretty observant and diligent in my approach. Like when the game is giving you hundreds of Mods, and many have different maximum upgrade levels, and whether they are Bronze, Silver, Gold or higher (like Primed or Sacrificial, Amalgram etc), then you cross reference that with how many weapons are in the game, and how by default they have limited capacity depending on how much you invest on them (Catalyst + Forma)... well probably could be cost effective to only upgrade important mods, but also not necessarily to maximum. Not only that, sometimes could even be more efficient if you have certain mods at different levels, none being at the max (like a rank 4 and a rank 6 Serration), since some weapons capacity difference)... My smaller example is getting a little large, my main point is, this is a way to save a lot of Endo in the early game. Invest large in gear that carries you, and gear you really have fun with and enjoy, and then eventually you will likely end up with a lot of excess. 

So its like many real life scenarios, as far as effective cost management. Likewise, being a FTP is going to very different from someone who has more disposable income and can spend real money on the game, because it can greatly speed up several of the games systems. That being said, that can also be somewhat simulated by being willing to grind and trade for Plat... but depending on the kind of person you are, you might not like having to trade or rely on others that much and or navigating trading practices, websites, dealing with people, having to put time into grinding, especially since by default, people will tend to trade for stuff they don't have or are finding hard to get, which usually also means, you may also face that same issue, (unless for example you have been around in the game so long you have a lot of vaulted items to sell, but thats also a time investment too)... This is also why good framing around the idea of paying to win, can fall apart, because games are so diverse now, and context matters. Like a free to pay game, is different to a full price paid game. PVP is different to PVE. Like there are a lot of other details that become relevant. Like this is also a "grind to win" game, and generally a grindy game. Its one of the core gameplay loops. Not the only one, but attitudes and perceptions matter here too. For example, for some people the fun bit is getting the eventual reward. For some, its the actions in getting the reward, and for some its both. Also, variables exist within those too, like I like Disruption, so getting Dante recently was a breeze. Some people don't like Disruption, and I saw someone annoyed that the Dante farm "takes too long", and "doesn't respect players time", which sure, fair as far as their preference, even if I think objectively Dante's grind is one of the most relatively time efficient. 

I often get recommended quite a few Youtuber games content creators playing Warframe for the first time, and most are usually pretty favourable and impressed by the game being FTP and having pretty good monetisation. Also just impressed, by how much is in the game, for free. Again, though Warframe isn't going to be for everyone. I probably would have bounced off this game really hard if I was a FTP player or younger. Its my chill background game now, that I can spend money on now and then, for cool cosmetics etc (Though originally, it was to just give myself breathing room with slots). 

I also personally think Warframe is at its strongest right now (well based on the criteria I would set for the game). As far as content you can do right now, so many systems, tools, gear, quests, missions, collectibles, so much for one to do. Again though, if you enjoy that, you can eat rich, if you are more particular, more doesn't always mean better. 

[UnstarPrime]

17 hours ago, quxier said:

Why not just use "micro transaction" or "pay to SKIP"?

I'm definitely aware that different people sometimes seem to have different operational definitions of "pay-to-win".  The reason I use that term the way I do is two-fold:

1. In the vast majority of the interactions and reading I've done throughout my lifetime, the term pay-to-win has been used to refer to all types of games, whether single-player, multiplayer, etc.  So that's my experience with the term.
2. Because I feel like that's the most accurate way to way to use the term "pay-to-win".  If you "pay" and it gets you closer to "winning", then intuitively that should fall under the umbrella of "pay-to-win".

Personally, I would categorize both "pay-to-skip" and "pay-to-win" as different — and at times overlapping — sub-categories of "microtransactions"  But if others want to frame things differently, that's fine.  Different people having different understandings of terms is far from a new problem, and we've got plenty of conversational tools to address it! ^^

Edited April 18 by UnstarPrime
adjusted sub-category explanation

[helioth137]

definitely one of the best free to play games around, with the fairest microtransaction system & trading & positive long term development that you can look back on.

Just not amazing on the pvp front, but hey, who knows what will happen ? :P 

[Xzorn]

Warframe is P2W now? Man that term has really diluted itself.

You really should see some veteran plat hoards. Cuz there's a big difference base on time periods you played. I've sold multiple Rivens for 7-9k gladly. Because plat is the ultimate equalizer since it's the premium currency. Before that I was selling my extra progress for 400-600p per maxed Mod and before that Event mods right before they went core. You don't actually have to spend a lot of time or money. Just know what's worth plat and be around at the right time.

Yea, it's notably slower to make plat now. Sorta. I came back with 15 Soma Prime sets that were previously worthless. Overal DE has saturated the game with Endo and other progression based resources so players like myself can't sell it to others but there's still plat to be had.

The only things I buy in Warframe is Tennogen and Prime Accessories because paying to skip content just means you hit that dead-end quicker.
Seriously. I took a 5 year break and caught up in 6 weeks. MR 27 to 32. They've always been fairly poor with sustained content but it's gotten worse.

[Cram_Duahcim]

[XorianShadow]

20 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

It's both.

• Warframe is a free-to-play game because you can acquire everything except for cosmetics by simply playing the game.
• Warframe is a pay-to-win game where you can give the developers money to obtain power now instead of having to earn it in the game.

These terms are not mutually exclusive.

While pay-to-win is generally a (justifiably) maligned term, I don't think it's innately bad, especially not in a free-to-play game.  There are better and worse ways to monetize power, and in my opinion Warframe overall does it fairly well.

For example, let's say I want Dante.  I could pay for him, or I could farm him.  And I feel like it's a pretty non-controversial statement to say that Dante's farm is very fast and requires playing a game mode that is one of the most beloved in Warframe.  So I can earn Dante and have fun while doing so, without paying a cent.  You could buy Dante, but there's far from any need to.

Which isn't to say that there aren't certain farms in Warframe that are terrible.  The drop rates for the Tome mods make acquiring them in-game a tedious grind, and statistical analysis of these drop rates show that most players are better off simply buying these mods from the market because of how lengthy that grind is.  It's fairly obvious that most players will stop having fun long before they've earned all of the Tome mods, which makes this farm feel a bit unfair, like it's intentionally pressuring players to purchase the mods in the market.

In my estimation, however, these terrible farms are the exception to the rule.  And in general, the ability for players to trade just about anything actually reduces demand and thus the price of earnable goods.  If I don't like a specific farm but another player does, we can trade and everyone wins.

Endo and credits are a bit different than these other farms I've already mentioned, in that these are evergreen rewards.  Most players will reach a place where they can no longer benefit from additional Endo and credits, especially because as new content is released, more Endo and credits will be needed to fuel new rewards.  And beyond that, the other major difference is that no matter what activity you are doing, you are probably earning both Endo and credits while doing it (especially because extra mods can be converted into Endo or credits).  Thus, there's generally no need to specifically farm Endo and credits.  If you get a new mod or something and you love it so much that you need to level it now, sure, there are some good farms that can help you with that.  But generally speaking, I've found that a far better strategy is to just be prudent with how you spend your resources.  I have plenty of Primed mods that I haven't leveled up because I don't need to use them.  And the more I play the game in any way, the more Endo and credits I accumulate to spend on the mods I actually do want to use.  It's a marathon, not a sprint; so pace yourself!

This makes way more sense, I was doubting if I wanted to invest more time into warframe right now, and people need to understand time is not free, your time is not free, this narrative that people should just play the game and find out is silly when it comes to huge investments like warframe or any mmo like game to be honest, even single player rpgs should be questioned if its worth the time.  And your right on what pay to win actually is, and it seems so many still refuse to see it as we see in the comments here, these are the facts of pay to win people should learn to cope with it instead of fighting against every little comment they disagree with.

[(PSN)Caerith]

On 2024-04-17 at 10:40 AM, Bravoryus said:

April 2024 I started playing again, I was in doubt between Warframe and the released Dragon Dogmas 2, I believe that both games suffer from the same problem, but Warframe can survive in 2024 with an evolution in its farming and coins mechanism. Attracting new players and mainly making the player stay in the game.

Dragon's Dogma 2 suffers the same problems as Warframe?  Most of your post is about Endo, so... I guess it's technically true that you can't farm endo in Dragon's Dogma 2.

Then again, do you really need to farm Endo in Dragon's Dogma 2?  You certainly don't need to farm it in Warframe nowadays: you get thousands of it just playing normally.

Most of Dragon's Dogma 2's problems are that a vocal subset of gamers are lazy idiots who think they know everything and therefore don't read, don't pay attention, and don't learn.  Warframe players are industrious innovators with excellent hygiene and keen judgement.  They're very different communities and very different games.

Anyway, Dragon's Dogma 2 doesn't have railjack as far as I know (no spoilers).

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-18 at 1:48 AM, UnstarPrime said:

I'm definitely aware that different people sometimes seem to have different operational definitions of "pay-to-win".  The reason I use that term the way I do is two-fold:

1. In the vast majority of the interactions and reading I've done throughout my lifetime, the term pay-to-win has been used to refer to all types of games, whether single-player, multiplayer, etc.  So that's my experience with the term.
2. Because I feel like that's the most accurate way to way to use the term "pay-to-win".  If you "pay" and it gets you closer to "winning", then intuitively that should fall under the umbrella of "pay-to-win".

Personally, I would categorize both "pay-to-skip" and "pay-to-win" as different — and at times overlapping — sub-categories of "microtransactions"  But if others want to frame things differently, that's fine.  Different people having different understandings of terms is far from a new problem, and we've got plenty of conversational tools to address it! ^^

There is only one real definition of it since it was created to seperate one thing from another. What your first point highlights is that people are absolutely clueless since they havent experienced what P2W is and why it was created. Like, single-player P2W? That makes absolutely zero sense, it is quite literally impossible for anyhting single player to be P2W since it is... well... single player.

Point two just means you dont get it. The "win" part or P2W is in relation to other players, you paying real cash to gain a significant advantage over other players. This was a term created when competiative games started to monetize the competative part through their cash shops. When you use this term on WF you are also using it on every game that exsisted before there was a need for this specific term to be created in the first place. Since games back then worked like WF monetization and sold shortcuts not tied to competative systems within the games, or they had no competative systems at all. This means that through your reasoning regarding P2W, those games also became P2W when that term was created even though that term was created to seperate those games from P2W games. There were already terms that described the monetization model of those games, aswell as later games that followed that model, like WF, PoE, MH and others. Those terms were P2S, PfC and similar, where they sold either skips, or convenciance items, like expanded stashes or similar that were cut since the game was otherwise free.

The term has nothing to do with "winning" over anything but other players through paying real cash. Hence why it is impossible for it to apply to single player games, because it is just you that is the sole player.

On 2024-04-17 at 9:30 PM, UnstarPrime said:

While pay-to-win is generally a (justifiably) maligned term, I don't think it's innately bad, especially not in a free-to-play game.  There are better and worse ways to monetize power, and in my opinion Warframe overall does it fairly well.

This part also shows you dont know what the term imples. P2W is innately a bad term, it was created for that reason, to be used as a red flag or black mark on games that allowed people to pay for significant advantages over others in competative settings. As I said to Voltage in another thread about this same misconception, it is like calling Bob a bigot but then saying it isnt positively a bad thing. Just monetizing power does not mean it becomes P2W. There is no competative aspect in WF where paying cash grants you a significant advantage over other players. Everyone benefits from what you purchase if you purchase something tied to power the moment you play with them using whatever it is you purchased. 

You are right though, pay-to-skip can overlap, or well transform into pay-to-win if the systems of the game and whatever is monetized results in significant advantages over other players. But the game needs to have competative aspects for that to happen. WF simply doesnt have that since we are never competing when we play with others. Everything is shared between the group etc. with a common end goal for the activity. If WF had public zones with personal loot and kill tagging etc. it could potentially be close to P2W territory, but even then it would be a massive leap due to how progression and items work in WF. We dont have strict linear progression. For instance somone in a setting as the one mentioned would not increase his chances of tagging mobs by spending on the latest things in this game. Someone grabbing Onos or Ruvox (that is the name right?) for cash right out the door would not positively improve their dominance at a public farm spot compared to someone without those weapons. Since power isnt linear in that way where the latest is the best so that skipping results in an instant power gain over others. In the end though, we dont even have those "competative" PvE systems, since we all share whatever someone else manages to squeeze out of a mob, or that you help that person squeeze out of the mob by having a rare item booster.

I've been through plenty of P2S and P2W games, both F2P and B2P versions. And I see it as a slap in the face of both DE (and other developers) aswell as players when people throw this term around in WF and similar games. It completely removes all meaning from the term and the reason for why it was created in the first place. I mean, what was the reason to create this term when it is going to end up getting used to describe games that it was never intended to be used on? You and others practically brought us back to the time before, since you use the term P2W to mean P2S.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

I enjoy this game. I play it a lot. I never recommend anyone play this game due to the sheer investment required to get to a comfortable place in the game and how much RNG can inflate that.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

There is only one real definition of it since it was created to seperate one thing from another. What your first point highlights is that people are absolutely clueless since they havent experienced what P2W is and why it was created. Like, single-player P2W? That makes absolutely zero sense, it is quite literally impossible for anyhting single player to be P2W since it is... well... single player.

Point two just means you dont get it. The "win" part or P2W is in relation to other players, you paying real cash to gain a significant advantage over other players. This was a term created when competiative games started to monetize the competative part through their cash shops. When you use this term on WF you are also using it on every game that exsisted before there was a need for this specific term to be created in the first place. Since games back then worked like WF monetization and sold shortcuts not tied to competative systems within the games, or they had no competative systems at all. This means that through your reasoning regarding P2W, those games also became P2W when that term was created even though that term was created to seperate those games from P2W games. There were already terms that described the monetization model of those games, aswell as later games that followed that model, like WF, PoE, MH and others. Those terms were P2S, PfC and similar, where they sold either skips, or convenciance items, like expanded stashes or similar that were cut since the game was otherwise free.

The term has nothing to do with "winning" over anything but other players through paying real cash. Hence why it is impossible for it to apply to single player games, because it is just you that is the sole player.

This part also shows you dont know what the term imples. P2W is innately a bad term, it was created for that reason, to be used as a red flag or black mark on games that allowed people to pay for significant advantages over others in competative settings. As I said to Voltage in another thread about this same misconception, it is like calling Bob a bigot but then saying it isnt positively a bad thing. Just monetizing power does not mean it becomes P2W. There is no competative aspect in WF where paying cash grants you a significant advantage over other players. Everyone benefits from what you purchase if you purchase something tied to power the moment you play with them using whatever it is you purchased. 

You are right though, pay-to-skip can overlap, or well transform into pay-to-win if the systems of the game and whatever is monetized results in significant advantages over other players. But the game needs to have competative aspects for that to happen. WF simply doesnt have that since we are never competing when we play with others. Everything is shared between the group etc. with a common end goal for the activity. If WF had public zones with personal loot and kill tagging etc. it could potentially be close to P2W territory, but even then it would be a massive leap due to how progression and items work in WF. We dont have strict linear progression. For instance somone in a setting as the one mentioned would not increase his chances of tagging mobs by spending on the latest things in this game. Someone grabbing Onos or Ruvox (that is the name right?) for cash right out the door would not positively improve their dominance at a public farm spot compared to someone without those weapons. Since power isnt linear in that way where the latest is the best so that skipping results in an instant power gain over others. In the end though, we dont even have those "competative" PvE systems, since we all share whatever someone else manages to squeeze out of a mob, or that you help that person squeeze out of the mob by having a rare item booster.

I've been through plenty of P2S and P2W games, both F2P and B2P versions. And I see it as a slap in the face of both DE (and other developers) aswell as players when people throw this term around in WF and similar games. It completely removes all meaning from the term and the reason for why it was created in the first place. I mean, what was the reason to create this term when it is going to end up getting used to describe games that it was never intended to be used on? You and others practically brought us back to the time before, since you use the term P2W to mean P2S.

p2w makes sense now and is absolutely applicable these days.
Of course, someone can fantasize embarrassing fairy tales about F2P. but the fact is that new player has to waste more than year of his life to enjoy new content and not be constantly frustrated........

THERE IS NO CATCH UP MECHANIC HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

p2w makes sense now and is absolutely applicable these days.
Of course, someone can fantasize embarrassing fairy tales about F2P. but the fact is that new player has to waste more than year of his life to enjoy new content and not be constantly frustrated........

THERE IS NO CATCH UP MECHANIC HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is still not P2W, that would just be Pay-to-Skip, since there is in the end no competition or objective need to catch up to anyone. And the "significant advantage" in this case comes from having played the game for a long time, so not positively through spending, and that "advantage" is over that new player, that would not gain an advantage over someone by paying. He'd just skip to get to whatever point it is he wants to go but faster. In the end it is also just subjective, since another new player wants to experience it all by playing and he isnt at a competative disadvantage by doing so, since there is no competition in the game. He might even opt to avoid public to experience as much as possible as he plays at his own pace.

I mean, I explained P2W in the post you quoted and you still completely miss the main parts of what makes something P2W instead of P2S.