Jade is making me and a lot of other people uncomfortable

[C11H22O1]

17 minutes ago, Golden_Tatsuo said:

Ahh, I didnt see any when I took a quick look, as most posts were either lore or new content related. Must have missed them. 

And while, yes, it IS a game, thats quite reductive. 

We, the Tenno, are effectively child-soldiers, but we cant "die" on the battlefield. If Jade goes down and dies, the little orb's light is out. 

Not like that matters, she already had the baby the belly is just part of her design since that's what she had when she was turned into a frame, baby or not it's part of her now

[SneakyErvin]

Jade in her current visual state shouldnt even be an issue if you have the phobia you claim. Since the phobia is not one that takes shape like something such as arachnophobia.

You are talking about a phobia that is rooted in the fear of going through a specific potentially health harming state on a personal level, not a phobia regarding pregnant women. So this is a phobia on the same levels like fear of flying or fear of large bodies of water. Which in reality has no impact when those things are experienced at a virtual levels (except for an extreme fraction of those having the phobias), unlike fear of spiders or other creatures, where the visual aspects leads to thoughts of dread, since they arent things you need to engage with willingly in order for them to exsist.

Since with the fear of creatures, when you see them on the screen the mind starts to think not only of that, but that they might crawl under your desk, or up the chair you currently sit in and you get these odd feelings across your body. With fear of flying, water and pregnancy etc. it is a phobia that occurs when you are in that moment or go into it IRL. You are for instance not afraid of the airplane itself for what it represents, or the body of water, you fear what happens if you enter that "state". And when experienced virtually, the fears arent there since the dangers are not there as a risk.

Hence why people can enjoy virtual flight simulators (games or advanced ones) very much even if they fear traveling with an airplane. Or like how someone like me, that would never freely go into larger bodies of water can enjoy sharkwing in this game without a problem, or even things like swiming/diving in Valheim or ArchAge, games where you can actually also drown.

So if you are actually basing this on how Jade looks, then it is some completely different phobia, since you are at that point fearing pregnant looking women in general no matter if they are pregnant or not. Much like how someone with arachnophobia fears Daddy Longlegs, a recluse and a tarantula near equally even though there is no sense in it.

[Slayer-.]

Yet no one is bothered taking a small child into battle. (spacekid) 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Slayer-. said:

It's a game.  

 

 

How I see it,  what the fuss is about.

[Slayer-.]

25 minutes ago, C11H22O1 said:

Not like that matters, she already had the baby the belly is just part of her design since that's what she had when she was turned into a frame, baby or not it's part of her now

Are you saying she couldn't lose the baby bump through diet and exercise before becoming a Warframe?    

[TheCursedUltima]

I doubt that they would have made a design, with an associated story that sets up further story elements, that they themselves would feel the discomfort that you imply - they would have had months to plan and actually create this story with Jade. The “P” word being censored is in line with the current spoiler embargo, as it is a major element of both the story and Jade’s design.

Edited Sunday at 02:47 PM by TheCursedUltima
Added final sentence.

[quxier]

55 minutes ago, Golden_Tatsuo said:

We, the Tenno, are effectively child-soldiers, but we cant "die" on the battlefield. If Jade goes down and dies, the little orb's light is out. 

That's not a problem. Helminth can rebuild her. No problem here.

[fo3nixz]

nope

[WanderingJoe]

Yes, I meant to imply that. I was trying, and seem to have failed, to point out the irony that would occur if the opinion was that people should not be uncomfortable about something, but then are not allowed to talk about it. My post was meant to be kind of tongue in cheek but I'm not that adept in being funny.

[SneakyErvin]

46 minutes ago, Golden_Tatsuo said:

Ahh, I didnt see any when I took a quick look, as most posts were either lore or new content related. Must have missed them. 

And while, yes, it IS a game, thats quite reductive. 

We, the Tenno, are effectively child-soldiers, but we cant "die" on the battlefield. If Jade goes down and dies, the little orb's light is out. 

Which isnt an issue, since that light is just light when you actually play her, and nothing else. Did you not do the quest, or didnt you skip through it all? Her belly is a jade light mote container, there is nothing else in it when you are playing the frame made from the blueprint Hunhow managed to save and give to you.

The whole child soldier thing aswell as us using ways to kill and maim that are today effectively illegal in wars would imo be more of a concern if someone wants to highlight "issues" with Warframes, weapons or the whole lore of the game incase it doesnt go inline with their moral standards.

We have a frame that would make Pinhead ashamed, one that also feeds her enemies to her pet most likely.

We have a frame that utilizes mechanical dispensers that vomit flechettes across a room. Not legal.

We have a couple of frames that utilize chemical warfare, from gases, to toxins and acids. Not legal.

We have frames that burn people to death. You guessed it, not legal either.

We have frames that freeze (and shatter) people to death. That wasnt even legal during WW2.

We have frames that effectively sand blaster people to death. Very likely not legal either.

We have a frame that suffocates people to death, while dressing up as a school girl. Not legal on any level at all, not when it comes to methods of killing or the choice of aestethics!

We have one frame that used to drown people, no he settles with inflicting biological microbes onto the target aswell as raining acid on them. While potentially also at times feeding people to his pet squid. Not legal.

We have frames that make sculptures out of enemies. Fairly sure that would be considered torture, so not legal either.

We have a frame that eats people...

And that is just the frames. Nevermind the arsenal of illegal weaponry we use in combination with that. In addition to us somehow being the authority of the system, where we cull the natives as needed to keep order and balance. Or that we have no loyalty whatsoever. Changing our allegiance to syndicates as we see fit, cos who #*!%ing cares right? Or that lich or sister that we eventually got over to our side, that guy/gal whom have come to aid us without us asking time and time again, that guy/gal we just sold out to the highest bidder because another Tenno wanted to obtain their weapon for a pretty penny. Or worse, we sold them out for a pretty penny just because a fellow Tenno wanted a piece of their fashion.

A system this #*!%ed up (read glorious) yet you and some others decide to uhm worry about a frame looking pregnant, or some was called for puns sake gemussy? Yes, clearly moral priorities are all on point... not.

[(PSN)BAM-BAM-73]

No I don't. I think it adds a nod to realism. Imagine your county is invaded and you reply "can you come back in 9 months?"

Edited Sunday at 06:18 PM by (PSN)BAM-BAM-73
Typo

[Vaalyah]

4 hours ago, BlackKisa said:

I also happen to have pregnancy phobia.

Sending you a huge hug!

 

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Jade in her current visual state shouldnt even be an issue if you have the phobia you claim

It is, because if you are playing "as her", it means you ARE in that state. 1) don't expect to be able to understand others' phobia 2) especially in this case if you don't have an uterus.

Again: guys, this thread is "Devs, this is a problem to some users, can we have a different 3D models to avoid it?". Not a "please, come here and do me a random online psychological evaluation".

Thanks.

[ReddyDisco]

I don't play jade, wouldn't know

[SirKeksalot]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Jade in her current visual state shouldnt even be an issue if you have the phobia you claim. Since the phobia is not one that takes shape like something such as arachnophobia.

"I have tokophobia and seeing a pregnant character triggers it because pregnancy and birth are inextricable."

"NUH UH"

[(PSN)MYKK678]

4 hours ago, Golden_Tatsuo said:

I get that its just a glowing orb in her stomach but theres something deeply unsettling about going into battle with a visibly pregnant warframe (to me, at least).

That means that you don't get that it's just a glowing orb.

Babies in the third trimester don't typically show up on scans as glowing orbs. Meaning it's not a baby. So realistically you just have an issue with women with a prominent stomach being in battle. If you however have no problem with Grendal being in battle, it might be time to ask why there's a difference to you. But that's a thought-process between you and you, not a conversation to be had here.

[MutoManiac]

Maybe it’s just a beer belly since I’d be drinking a lot too if I couldn’t for 9 months.

[Trollocaustic]

Gotta admit that the dev team has been upping the overall edginess factor with female frames especially over the past 2-3 years,...

[trst]

We already have child soldiers that were forced to kill their own parents after being forced to go through a Void experiment.

An infested child that formed a cult-like following to spread their strain of Infestation.

An entire faction of people, including children, who're forced to sell off their organs, and have them repossessed, to work the jobs they're forced to do. Plus anyone who doesn't pay their due is left as a head on a shelf until they or someone else can pay for them.

An entire faction who regularly commits familicide on anyone they deem to be "defective" and who actively hunt down anyone who tries to flee from this fate.

Then we have all the things the frames went through. Which include one who was tortured and experimented on. One who was turned into a frame, had their horse murdered, was killed by their former masters, then killed their former masters while wearing the remains of said horse. One who was turned into a frame, forced to kill their own son, and forced to relive that memory for the rest of their days. And so on.

 

But yeah a frame that just appears pregnant is "weird".

[3xt1inct]

22 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

Well, this is where it would be nice to get some response from DE. It may be a bit of an ask but no one has told us anything about our worries. I personally am going to wait and see if it takes them a dev stream or two after Tennocon. Until then, this is neither a yes or no situation. Its up to them to decide if the trouble of changing things is worth it, so why not make our opinion known until then?

OP sadly posted in the wrong forum for this to happen i think, this stuff belongs more in general feedback then known issues, known issues is mostly for bugs and technical failures of the update.

[3xt1inct]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Jade in her current visual state shouldnt even be an issue if you have the phobia you claim. Since the phobia is not one that takes shape like something such as arachnophobia.

You are talking about a phobia that is rooted in the fear of going through a specific potentially health harming state on a personal level, not a phobia regarding pregnant women. So this is a phobia on the same levels like fear of flying or fear of large bodies of water. Which in reality has no impact when those things are experienced at a virtual levels (except for an extreme fraction of those having the phobias), unlike fear of spiders or other creatures, where the visual aspects leads to thoughts of dread, since they arent things you need to engage with willingly in order for them to exsist.

Since with the fear of creatures, when you see them on the screen the mind starts to think not only of that, but that they might crawl under your desk, or up the chair you currently sit in and you get these odd feelings across your body. With fear of flying, water and pregnancy etc. it is a phobia that occurs when you are in that moment or go into it IRL. You are for instance not afraid of the airplane itself for what it represents, or the body of water, you fear what happens if you enter that "state". And when experienced virtually, the fears arent there since the dangers are not there as a risk.

Hence why people can enjoy virtual flight simulators (games or advanced ones) very much even if they fear traveling with an airplane. Or like how someone like me, that would never freely go into larger bodies of water can enjoy sharkwing in this game without a problem, or even things like swiming/diving in Valheim or ArchAge, games where you can actually also drown.

So if you are actually basing this on how Jade looks, then it is some completely different phobia, since you are at that point fearing pregnant looking women in general no matter if they are pregnant or not. Much like how someone with arachnophobia fears Daddy Longlegs, a recluse and a tarantula near equally even though there is no sense in it.

First of all are you a qualified professional (psychiatrist, neurologist, etc.), that has knowledge in these matters? Otherwise this is a very S#&$ty message dunking on someone's fear and experience. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

So I wanted to leave my personal opinion somewhere on this subject, but there are so many threads, so I guess this one shall be it. 

Firstly though, and most of all, I want to make one thing super transparent, I am not here to personally invalidate, downplay, minimise anyone else's interpretation, feelings, thoughts, criticisms, issues, to downplay, reduce or disregard anyones trauma. The subject can carry with it a lot of sensitivity, it can differ from person to person, in many ways. I am fully aware that my interpretation and opinion, and perspective and experiences, are just those, mine. Not inherently or innately right or correct, more than anyone else's. 

I do think a reason why such threads can end up getting a bit heated though, is because of how we as individuals can conflate and assume. After all thats accurate of much conflict and tension just in general. Like a difference of opinion, can be pretty cut and dry, but insinuations about allotment of resources, actions, post or pre situation can create complexity and then be more than just about opinions. 

My personal interpretation of the quest and Jade, was positive to neutral. I didn't expect a large quest, or even a medium sized quest, but an interesting one, and I did find it interesting. I do think that it had some cliche aspects, (protective guardian figure, protects young child/baby through a war zone or dangerous situation, and is badass in doing it), but it was executed well enough that I also enjoyed it, and it also had some relatively novel and unique aspects, in a way that Warframe often delivers. 

Do I think that some could be uncomfortable with Jade and the quest? Yes, and I would sympathise. Regardless of intent. Do I think that was the intent or messaging? Ehh, not really, again, interpretation and experiences and all that. Like I don't view any child as being at risk as far as Jade the Warframe, being taken into Warframe missions. Her design to myself, is much more symbolic. I don't think we are playing as a "pregnant Warframe", or that we are playing as callous and cold Tenno, who would endanger a fetus and pregnant person. For myself, Jade the original, had the child, just her unique circumstance, (within the narrative) and artistic design outside it, mean the Warframe we use, has motherhood, pregnancy as a symbolic theme. Not the only one mind you, they also have themes of a nurturer, angelic figure, with ties to Stalker.

Now, do I think that some people, even people who might also have a similar interpretation, may find it hard to shake off the idea of the Warframe, looking pregnant, and the anxiety, tension, negativity, discomfort that comes with that. Or not just the design, but the mission itself, or both, or something else related to the Warframe or theme. I do, as in I can understand that some will feel uncomfortable, will feel negative feelings and thoughts, and that those are valid. 

To myself its a bit tricky though, because trauma and personal experiences often usually are. In parts of my career and life, and volunteering, I have had to learn to try and understand and help other people with their trauma. Which often sometimes overlapped with my own. How people hurt and experience trauma, can be very different. 

A lot of the trauma I have had, some of it does get generally used in fiction/media, some of it is less portrayed. I will often have some small criticisms, but personally, I am usually more positive on it actually being explored and depicted, even if I may be critical. I also know many people who feel differently, and I can respect that, and think thats valid too. Usually specifically though, its more about them not wanting to relive, experience, or be subject to such trauma issues in that particular way, so they opt out. So then, an extra layer thats relevant and specific here, is the idea of anticipation, assumption, forewarning, fairness around opting in or out, so on... Since Warframe isn't really a one off movie, or even game, its a long running frequently updated game, thats over a decade old... I can see why it would cause distress to some, in a way thats not relatively easy to avoid or control. Even with the pre quest disclaimer (which I have seen some people say wasn't adequate or descriptive enough, and some say was too much of a spoiler, said too much, entirely not necessary at all...)

I think there are a few other tricky aspects to this. For example, personally, I think there is a relative scale, even a spectrum to criticisms, praise, objections, evaluations, neutral assessments about such things. As preferences, opinions, on an individual level, all valid, but in a larger scope, considerate to including others, and how that shapes media and products, well thats where it gets more nuanced. 

Lets say that you have two hypothetical people, both have trauma around miscarriages, and losing a child. Both play Jades Shadows, one person has a negative experience, one person has a positive experience. One views Jade as a neat and important reminder that pregnancy isn't some disgusting gross process that needs to be hidden behind closed doors, that pregnant woman are often overlooked, treated with stigma, taboo, attempted to be controlled politically, and appearing in more fiction, in themes, even if it includes trauma, loss, conflict, its okay. That as a theme for a Warframe, its neat, and empowering and cool. Then for the other, its just a negative, sad, and horrible reminder of trauma, with no upsides or benefits. 

Which person do we accomodate? I personally think we can have empathy, sympathy and compassion for both, but as far as practicalities within the game, the addition of the quest, the design of the Warframe... Would one person not want the quest or Warframe to exist, to deny the other person's positive experience? How does the person who had the positive experience, reconcile the hurt and pain of the others negative experience, whilst still thinking that such experiences, art etc should exist regardless. 

You can even have additional individuals... like those who had the negative experience, but are fine with it existing for others... Those who might have had a positive experience, but don't think such themes or ideas as executed should exist... 

I also want to be transparent. Personally and I acknowledge this as anecdotal and strictly something that I have experienced and not representative of others experiences or even necessarily a small minority, but... I grew up with a lot of people around me, with some pretty regressive and close minded views. You shouldn't talk or depict mental health issues, as thats morally wrong and a personal failure. Men should always be tough and strong, and silent, woman pretty, submissive, obedient. Depression doesn't exist, let alone more complex mental health issues. Everything was much more rigid, as far as how you wear clothes, interact with others. Pregnancy? Very quiet, personal family matter, sex as well. Not something for stories or fiction, or to be discussed. Let alone potential trauma around pregnancy. So stories and fiction that actually breached (no pun intended) such subject matter, was often innately and inherently bad. Since it raised "too many questions", confused the children", was "immoral", "taboo", put out for public that which was ONLY to ever be a personal, private family matter.. and such ideas were very aggressively forced onto younger generations as well... So guilt, shame, etc were used as weapons, and something people who escaped such dynamics often had to carry and struggle with... 

Now again, to be super super clear, I am not saying, insinuating, claiming that all people who have objections or issues to Jade, Jade's Shadow quest are these types of people. At all. I again, already know for many people its really sincerely just more of a personal matter and nothing to do with trying to control others beliefs, or to shame or guilt others, its much more genuine, sincere and to their with actual lived experiences and trauma, and if I wasn't already aware of that personally, there are also enough comments and reactions from people in various threads that I take on good faith as well. Its just something I wanted to touch on, because I am personally aware of some people who have issues with DE and Warframe making them feel uncomfortable, because of reasons to do with more socio-political reasons and ideology, and on an individual level, I mean sure, but greater than that... ehhhh... Personally I have much more sympathy for the people who may have had actual trauma with related subject matter, and felt distress, and aren't quite sure how to process such feelings, than someone who thinks DE is perpetually screwing up because "DE's woke agenda is icky, and pregnant woman should stay behind closed doors". 

In short, my personal impression and interpretation of the quest is mostly neutral to positive. I talked about the situation to some of my friends, including two that have trauma around childbirth. Most thought it was interesting, but would have to see the execution. Most seemed positive on the idea as far as representation and actually having the dare to cover such subject matter. A few are a bit meh on children/family centred stories in general, but the fact that its "robots". "cyborgs", "mechanical angel" stuff, interesting. Oh, and none are actually that familiar with Warframe unfortunately, don't have too many friends that are. Also obviously again, to be clear, since this topic can get heated and have miscommunication, I am not claiming my friends takes are the right ones, or representative of anything greater or grander either... We all generally just tend to think certain ideas that many consider "taboo" actually make for good ideas and themes to be explored, especially if the basis for why it was considered taboo is outdated and determined because of certain power structures that erode with time, or conflict with healthier attitudes. Which also sometimes come with some growing pains. 

Then lastly, about the idea of a toggle. I am personally not against it, and this is DE, they do tend to listen a lot. I do think people need to be a bit more careful about what they claim is easy and simple though... Also optically, well things are different. I personally don't think that Kullervo's Knives are a good comparison necessarily. Its not like an armour attachment either, where a design already exists and they are just removing an attachment, so you can have two different polished states. Its not like say, Citrine's design was different, and you remove her front and her geode like design cavity was there all along, just waiting to be seen. Having a toggle would require substantially more work, effort and resources. How much? Well that bit I don't personally know, or would claim to. I would be personally reluctant to claim it would be easy or simple though. So to myself its more of a question of value, accomodation etc and thats where feedback is important, and good. I think if people want a toggle, they should voice that view. I would say there is somewhat of a complexion though... Its kind of about optics. Again, and not to oversimplify what is a fairly complex and nuance situation, but people wanting a toggle for super serious trauma related reasons is one thing... people wanting it for aesthetic visual reasons or gameplay reasons is another, and people wanting them for arguably less "reasonable" reasons, is another. What is a relatively or arguably less reasonable reason? Just as an example, but "I don't like pregnant woman. Warframes should be gender neutral robots. I am okay with them being sexy (well the woman ones, sexy men are weird lol, and pregnancy isn't sexy, its gross". Now you shouldn't take the worst reason and apply it broadly, but lets say that DE has 100 people take issue with Jade? 10 of them its for trauma reasons around very personal issues, but 90 its for "pregnant woman being icky"... ehhh... Again though to be clear, thats a strict hypothetical, but this is where I think good feedback is really important, to give context to certain issues, as well as some general self awareness. I personally think a toggle should be fine and considered even if hypothetically it was just a low percentage of people whose issues were more to do with actual trauma, just because I think such people should be accommodated if its relatively easy to do so. I also don't necessarily think the issue is that urgent or pressing though, as some others may think it is. Which I don't say to discredit such objections or sentiment, its more of a framing issue and how one puts their own perspectives into the broader larger groups and reconciles them. I myself fall into minority perspectives on many things, so its a sort of issue that needs to be addressed as opposed to glossed over or avoided. 

Take care all, stay safe! 

(Oh and one other general thing. I personally generally enjoy and like that DE is willing to explore and cover some traditionally taboo or stigmatised or tense subject matter and themes. Don't always think the writing or execution is revolutionary or perfect, but regardless I like and appreciate it. The intent always seems sincere and good, like Rell with Autism, the small insertions of LGBQT+ aspects, and although like say, to some self-flagellation is just something that happened in the Da Vinci code, it is actually a more nuanced and serious topic for some, depending on culture. Ballas manipulation and abuse techniques and tactics, psychological abuse, coping mechanisms around pain, loss, memory. Trauma, survivors guilt, projection (sometimes more literal than others) are all things Warframe has touched on. Getting more specific and brazen about pregnancy and not just allusions/allegory about motherhood, I actually think is pretty interesting, in the context of Warframe, and it says a lot about Ballas as well mind you. Stuff we already generally knew but...)

[Trollocaustic]

4 hours ago, trst said:

We already have child soldiers that were forced to kill their own parents after being forced to go through a Void experiment.

An infested child that formed a cult-like following to spread their strain of Infestation.

An entire faction of people, including children, who're forced to sell off their organs, and have them repossessed, to work the jobs they're forced to do. Plus anyone who doesn't pay their due is left as a head on a shelf until they or someone else can pay for them.

An entire faction who regularly commits familicide on anyone they deem to be "defective" and who actively hunt down anyone who tries to flee from this fate.

Then we have all the things the frames went through. Which include one who was tortured and experimented on. One who was turned into a frame, had their horse murdered, was killed by their former masters, then killed their former masters while wearing the remains of said horse. One who was turned into a frame, forced to kill their own son, and forced to relive that memory for the rest of their days. And so on.

 

But yeah a frame that just appears pregnant is "weird".

Like I said, edge factor dialed to 11.

[Yamazuki]

It "feels weird" because you want it to. Admitting that you know she's not pregnant and then complaining that she is... This is no different to people who complain about larger bodies like Grendel or Hildryn or even the gender of characters in a game. Even if the quest had no mother theme going for it, but retained the appearance some people would complain regardless.

I personally don't understand how people can tolerate multiple forms of extreme violence, especially with how detailed some games are, but then are bothered by the shape of a character's body.

[PublikDomain]

It's a bit weird. From the latest devshort it seems like DE's aware of the request so once the spoiler notice is lifted I suspect we'll get an official response. Pregnancy is one of those sensitive cultural subjects so having an alternate skin is really not an unreasonable request.

[ShogunGunshow]

There's a guy that vores people with his stomach. So no, a frame that has a pregnant look to it doesn't really register as weird to me. It's all pixels anyway.

I mean, if the Boss can do it, a warframe definitely can. 

Spoiler

 

[Kaiga]

14 hours ago, Xycelium said:

Reminder guys; Jade isn't literally pregnant when she's rebuilt as our own Warframe, only that she has the shape and appearance of such.

Then why do her idle animations cradle her not-pregnant belly and stand like she's pregnant, hold her guns around it like she's still pregnant, and rub her middle like she's still pregnant.

Come on now, they're obviously selling this as pregnant-frame, which imo is whack and perfectly allowed to be criticized from a design standpoint.

This is a game about esthetics. You're supposed to be a cool space ninja frame. Monsters? Horrors? Sure. But the frames are not humans for a reason. I am surrounded by pregnant women rubbing their wombs in the relay, in the game about being a space ninja. Hello? Did anyone even remotely artpass or QC this idea with actual humans?

You cant just turn devstream memes and community jokes into major part of the warframe lore and gameplay. People will stop taking it seriously and stop caring, what, are we getting wheelchair frame next? Elderly frame next? A frame for every possible mundane reality that the point of a video game is to escape from?

This is ridiculous, and should be allowed to be called as such.

Edited Monday at 05:00 AM by Kaiga