Frost: 2/5/2014

[kubbi]

I'm not liking the change to his globe but it hasnt been tested yet so i'll keep an open mind about it for now. I'll post my feedback about it once i've seen the changes.

[GIMO]

[Phoenix86]

About time, let's prepare to the rage wave

[Zhoyzu]

That's not what you use Snow Globe mainly for...

people who main frosts outside of defense missions know how to utilize snow globe for more then just its ability to block damage plz refrain from shooting something down without thinking first.

 

idk about you but 60% slow is more useful then the globe itself is sometimes

[SabreUr]

Please, contain your drama and post it in relevant thread.

[Brasten]

tweaked

 

Yes, tweaked, adjusted, refined.

 

NOT GUTTED

 

Which is what they did. Which is why its a Nerf, not a "balance".

[edryuu]

All in all Snow Globe what they are doing is pretty much a bad idea to it....well Grineer....why did you do this....either way some how i knew this is going happen....so its whatever for me at this point lost faith in them.....DE nerfing the good one while the bad ones being ignored...WOW DE just Wow

[Clawtank96]

Ok i will. Its just health based abilites arnt any good end game. It should a percentage not hp that way it scales to the difficulty.

[RoboDoge]

This was mentioned 6 months ago also. DE had enough of time to rework Frost into something useful, but no. Now they are nerfing his only useful ability into oblivion.

 

Ash, Oberon and Valkyr will have new drinking buddy at the "Meh" bar.

[Archistopheles]

agree, ready to discuss blessing and molecular prime?

 

Once Frost has been reworked properly.

 

3500hp on a globe is failure, and people say use maxed blind rage? yes 10k hp BUT the energy cost will be stupid high, and people say to stack the globes, you can't with a super high energy cost..

 

That's great feedback! Don't worry, everyone in the original thread is saying the same thing. It's a wait and see thing, now.

 

How many times did they have to rework Rhino to make him usable?

 

 

Exactly.

[Coripeta]

If u are going this way, maybe u could remove the duration factor of the skill, that way we can use efficience builds on it (snowglobe was the only power duration/related..so..) and a little bit high base health could be appreciated too.

 

I personally don't like this changes, but it's just my opinion.

[Skyrazer]

A Frost / Trinity player rant : 

 

Firstly, the two changes to Avalanche and Freeze (Ice Blast is a nice name) are kind of overdue, Frost's powers have been quite underpowered for a while now (even after Damage 2.0), so that's a welcome change. Wooo!

However... The whole change to Snowglobe looks like a huge hit under the belt for Frost. He's primarily used as a defensive frame, and snowglobe is esential for any defense mission that wants to last the onslawt at mid-high levels. Making snowglobe a health based ability like Iron skin is going to make it useless in the few places it actually shines. As someone said in the first page "warframes can run around and avoid fire while the snowglobe is a huge target" and that's as true as it gets.

Let's compare it with Iron skin because that's probably what you guys were looking at when this change came to mind (Mind you, I'm no Rhino player so correct me if I'm wrong anywhere) :

 

Iron skin has 2500 health and is deployed on Rhino with no debuffs or limitations and lasts untill destroyed. Said skill works well for low-mid levels but is quickly destroyed in higher levels due to high damage output by enemies. It also still allows Rhino to walk about unhindered and avoid fire / take cover / blindly demolish enemies.

 

Snowglobe on the other hand sticks to wherever Frost created it and just sits there patiently untill it runs out. It doesn't have a very long duration (unless highly modded) and serves as the best area defensive skill, complementing Frost's overall "Defense and light crowd control over bulk damage or utility". The globe is also large, sure with a few mods you can make it a person sized shield that lasts for ages, but that's not very practical is it? You've got to get out of it sooner or later, and enemies can always ocupy it and use it against you. The only places Frost does bloom are defenses and survivals, primarily because those require staying put for a long while and the globe is good at that. Giving it health pool however will destroy most of that remaining practical use at high levels where Frost is esential for survival.

 

Imagine doing a Tier 3 Defense, where you're down to the final few waves, your team is tired, maybe low on ammo and likely having poor performance or latency, as is ususaly the case. Frost's globe shows its full potentual in those situations but even then things like Corrupted Moas or Aincients manage to get in the globe and bring the pain on poor sleeping Naked Nick. You've all likely done one of those missions where you have 5 or more gunners mowing down at you while you scramble to destroy those few Moas or Drones that managed to rush into the Globe. Now imagine that the Snowglobe had a health pool and has to be redeployed constantly because that 50+ level gunner is chugging more bullets than the poor thing can handle. How frustrating would that be to fail in the final waves because that -one- thing holding off the hoards of enemies from destroying your objective suddently became useless? A lot, that's how much.

 

So unless more features are added to the globe ( for instance blocking enemies from entry / freeze DoT / becoming frozen solid like being hit from a "Freeze" projectile after being inside of it for X ammount of time, etc.. ) this change seems to be very uncalled for.

 

*inhales*

 

Thank you for reading and have a great day. 
- Skyrazer

Edited February 5, 2014 by Skyrazer

[Allenaattori]

Is Snow Globe going to be changed? Who said it and when? D:

[Gravefire]

*sigh*

What can we do? Frost mains will be mad no matter what is said or done.

I wasn't there but this is probably how the Rhinos felt when Iron Skin was nerfed.

 

Good for you! You should've moved on a while ago. ;)

There difference is with Iron Skin you could not die while it was on making it the most powerful spell in any situation. While with globe you still have to worry about melee units coming in.

[Cemges]

Fleeting expertise. Because snow globe isnt time based anymore, instead of narrow minded, thats what you'll use and you will have to press the button a little bit more. Thats how we dealt with iron skin nerf as rhinos.

You dont need to rage or hype over that really guys. It is a simple matter of changing your mod dynamics.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Cemges

[(PSN)InstaShark]

Good for you! You should've moved on a while ago. ;)

 

I did, but Frost was my favorite.

[NanoDecerto]

I would agree. If anyhting, Frost needed a massive buff. Before damage 2.0, his offensive abilities were useless. Now, they are still just as bad. Their solution: take away Frost's only redeeming power that makes him played. Now, Frost will fall into obscurity with the ranks of Banshee....

[Gravefire]

Exactly.

 

You don't outright just go into a nerf that huge for globe.

[DJSmash]

Hey everyone,

 

Making this post prior to U12 on PC's release (coming soon!), because as everything is coming together, there have been changes made to Frost's powers that ought to be shared and discussed for further review.

 

Changes:

Freeze (Codename Ice Blast internally): Comparable to Ember's Fireball in casting time and result of impact/damage.

Avalanche: Increased casting speed and increased damage.

Snowglobe: Now has health that is increased with fusion (currently: 1500,2500,3000,3500)

Snowglobe being a solely duration based skill created issues of viability of other frames in the "Defense" mission types, as well as a skew towards pace of gameplay.

 

The goal is to get Snowglobe, and Frost overall, in a place of power and action, but does not render gameplay optional, but we need everyone's experiences to get it right as we continue to make changes. 

 

Please discuss below your experiences with Frost and how you would balance his abilities with these changes in mind, as well as prepare to return to this thread after the Update has been deployed with further feedback.

 

Thanks, Tenno.

 

Clarification/FAQ 1: Will Strength Mods positively affect Snowglobes health after this change? Yes, they will!

 

Dear DE Rebecca,

 

Can you share what are the reason(s) that lead the devs wanting to change how the snowglobe function?

 

There are a lot of questions pertaining to this change of snowglobe:

1) How will power mod affect it?

2) Will duration mod affect it? & how?

3) Will strech mod affect it? & How?

 

Are you able to list down the full details?

 

 

Also, have you ever tried playing high level defence games vs the grineer/corpus past wave level 40 without a frost? or how about a T3 defense? The reason I had to ask this question because a snowglobe with a 3.5k hp? will get torn to shreads in a matter of seconds when facing with hordes of high level enemies. Someone here posted that the dev's should not have proposed with a FLAT value change instead it should be percentage % base.

 

 

I just want the dev's to give us the full details on how the existing mods will affect the "proposed" change on snowglobe - so that we players can understand clearly before throwing our opinions all over this posting. Please do not be hasty in this implementation towards U12 .. please take your time to think this through else it will be like the "stamina" issue.

 

 

#edit1: Typo's.

Edited February 5, 2014 by DJSmash

[Archistopheles]

All you're going to accomplish here is beating the bees-nest that is players who are upset by the potential change.

[Archwizard]

Here's the thing: They buffed Freeze. If they made it so it has a minimum duration before it's broken by Health damage, it could give Frost a much more active and fun playstyle.

 

Yes, they removed his ability to singlehandedly destroy Defenses. In case you haven't noticed, they did that to Vauban too, and he's still probably the most-requested frame for Derelicts.

 

We've all known the day would come when they would have to nerf his ability to artificially extend Grineer/Corpus Defenses. They'll do the same one day to Molecular Prime, and perhaps even Desecrate. They need to have more frames capable of pulling their weight in all fields, and when you have tier systems coming out every two weeks claiming that only Frost and a handful of others are viable, it discourages the diversity of the game.

 

Sometimes, crutches need to get nerfed to encourage skillful play.

 

Deal with it.

[RedPrimed]

wait where does it say that its not no duration

[Hyrath]

I completely disagree with the change done to Frost's snow globe on the basis that Warframe abilities do not scale with damage ever. Scaling, not in any sense of the word does a Warframe power stay useful for any given amount of time in this a defense or survival (end game) if it's based around damage. As such it is a horrible game design to go through with Frost in your current intended implementation but I highly recommend changing snow globe to instead reduce incoming damage by a percentage. Which in my opinion needs to happen to all damage based abilities for frames in Warframe and I'm surprised I don't see it discussed more often.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Um.. what?

 

I'm sorry, really? This is a considered a rework? I'm sorry, but copypasting Fireball onto Freeze, slightly buffing Avalanche and nerfing Frost's defining skill into the ground does not sound like a rework to me..

 

Snowglobe being a solely duration based skill created issues of viability of other frames in the "Defense" mission types, as well as a skew towards pace of gameplay.

I respectfully disagree. Anyone who's played T3 Defense or high level defense in general knows that Snow Globe goes a long way towards allowing frames to survive into higher waves - the globe isn't perfect, either, and can be worked around by enemies such as Shockwave Moas and Grineer Bombards. At the later waves, any frame that isn't a Nyx or Loki is generally trying to stay inside the globe and frantically fire at things, and sometimes that doesn't even cut it when 5-10 Corrupted Moas are running in and downing everyone, anyway, leaving the Frost to put up 2 or 3 Snow Globes as an insurance.

 

That being said, Snow Globe certainly isn't necesssary to do well on defense, either : a properly coordinated team of frames can adapt to defense environments in question (the most notable example being Vauban in ODD); I'm quite certain for example, a Trinity/Loki/Nova/Nyx group go could a long way on defense, no globe needed. (Blessing keeps Tenno invincible, Radial Disarm to stop enemy DPS dead in their tracks, Molecular Prime + Chaos/Absorb to wipe out crowds). As a result, I fail to see how Snow Globe has ever "skewed" the gameplay pace.

 

The goal is to get Snowglobe, and Frost overall, in a place of power and action, but does not render gameplay optional, but we need everyone's experiences to get it right as we continue to make changes.

As I've already explained above, a team of properly coordinated/built frames does not need a Snow Globe to carry Defense missions. I also fail to see how spamming a Globe over and over instead of just putting one up every wave gives a feel of "power and action", it sounds more like I'm being encouraged to play 1-button spam instead.

 

For those that want to compare to Iron Skin - there's a difference between Snow Globe and Iron Skin, and that is the fact the globe doesn't move with you. You can't really "godmode" your way past things, as Frost is still affected by status effects, enemies can swarm the globe, and a bunch of various other issues can occur, unlike old style Iron Skin which basically read "hit 2, ignore everything for a while".

 

Iron Skin as it currently is happens to get shredded at higher levels, anyway, but at least a Rhino can compensate by instead building toward Stomp stunlocking or Roar mass buff. Frost on the other hand is left with some AoE damage skills, and I'd use Mag/Ember/Nova/Saryn for AoE damage seeing as that's what they were designed to do.

 

Please discuss below your experiences with Frost and how you would balance his abilities with these changes in mind, as well as prepare to return to this thread after the Update has been deployed with further feedback.

I think I've made my point clear, DE, but I'll say it straight out since you considered even doing this in the first place : remove the HP cap from Snow Globe and leave it alone. This supposed "skew" in gameplay seems more like you've mistaken a popular frame or "OP" because everyone in recruiting usually wants a Frost on their defense missions; as I've already stated above, there are ways to do a defense mission without Snow Globe - all it takes is a little creativity and skill. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

 

One last thing : don't say it's Buff Day then hit us with this nerf disguised behind what would normally be some very helpful buffs. That's just lame.

Edited February 5, 2014 by ZephyrPhantom

[Verryn]

There difference is with Iron Skin you could not die while it was on making it the most powerful spell in any situation. While with globe you still have to worry about melee units coming in.

I never felt that way with everyone moving in slower. I would generally go around and start stabbing them.

I would have liked to use Iron Skin when it made you immune to all bullets/missiles/lasers/etc.