Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[Cpl_Facehugger]

A proper multishot fix is to just flat out nerf the chance % like Archwing's dual rounds. So that the low dmg per shot bullet hose weapons gets the benefit of multishot mods while high damage pack a punch weapon does not.

 

But archwing multishot is a joke that nobody actually uses, so that's not much of a solution at all.

 

Maybe if multishot cost like five points or something it could be viable with your proposed change, but...

 

By the end of the game, a fully modded player dies a bit faster than that, but enemies are slaughtered in droves.

 

I take it you don't play high level content? Because even with the current god tier I wouldn't exactly call level 80 heavy gunners "slaughtered in droves."

A proper multishot fix is to just flat out nerf the chance % like Archwing's dual rounds. So that the low dmg per shot bullet hose weapons gets the benefit of multishot mods while high damage pack a punch weapon does not.

 

But archwing multishot is a joke that nobody actually uses, so that's not much of a solution at all.

 

Maybe if multishot cost like five points or something it could be viable with your proposed change, but using up a slot and fifteen mod points?

 

By the end of the game, a fully modded player dies a bit faster than that, but enemies are slaughtered in droves.

 

I take it you don't play high level content? Because even with the current god tier I wouldn't exactly call level 80 heavy gunners "slaughtered in droves."

[OcelotVampire]

Since a number of pointless rant topics were made, mulitshot mod is gettin a pointless nerf. Happy now? This doesn't really do anything good for the game. Not to mention all the wasted time on the devs side for having to rebalance ALL the guns in the game. Time the devs could be using to flesh out the game more. Just to have mulitshot consume more ammo. Awesome, thanks so much guys.

 

This changes nothing since we're all still going to use multishot mods. In reality there really wasn't a problem with the way it was. Sure there's mods that will always be a "must have" for weapons. Removing or nerfing them is only going to make way for some other mod to become the next "must have". So there really isn't any point to doing so. It just angers many of the community.

 

A better option to relieve the the burden of having to use up 2 slots for damage + multishot mods would be to give us a aura and utility slot for weapons. Many things could be used as weapon auras that would affect the whole team like maybe a ammo regen aura or the ammo mutation mods. Weapon utility mods could be clip size,reload, punch through and fire rate.

 

This upcoming nerf to multishot mods makes me a sad panda.... Thanks for reading.

[Mac2492]

This is a step in the right direction. There are two more mod changes that need to be considered:

1) Base damage mods - Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point. Give them a separate slot in the weapon, akin to stances. Capacity adjusted to account for this. I'd suggest adding capacity to account for the upcoming Multishot change, but it depends on the weapon rework. Change Point Blank effects into Primed Point Blank's and give owners of PPB a new mod to compensate.

2) Mod underclocking. Allow higher rank mods to be temporarily drop down to lower ranks.

 

Right now everyone is up in arms because Multishot is MANDATORY.

Base Damage, Multishot, Element Damage all scale separately from each other and form the basis of weapon modding.

Currently, every weapon has at least 4 slots that absolutely must be dedicated to these mods.

 

Pistols: Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Elemental Mod (x2)

Shotguns: (Primed) Point Blank, Hell's Chamber, Blaze, Elemental Mod

Rifle: Serration, Split Chamber, Shred, Elemental Mod (x2)

Melee: Pressure Point, Fury or Berserker, Elemental Mod (x2)

 

This leaves at most 4 slots to truly customize your weapon. If you can break dependence on Base Damage and Multishot, you free up two slots for interesting Corrupted mods, Nightmare mods, and special mods like Covert Lethality/Combustion Beam. Weapons will be rebalanced to compensate, most likely meaning an overall DPS increase.

 

Imagine if you didn't HAVE to put Split Chamber on your rifle and Serration didn't take up a slot, just like Melee stances. Now you truly have space to customize your weapon. Do you want to focus on elemental procs and damage? Increase your magazine size then pair it with multishot? This is the first step towards a better mod system.

[Acidulant]

But archwing multishot is a joke that nobody actually uses, so that's not much of a solution at all.

Maybe if multishot cost like five points or something it could be viable with your proposed change, but...

I take it you don't play high level content? Because even with the current god tier I wouldn't exactly call level 80 heavy gunners "slaughtered in droves."

Because the one and only bullethose archwing weapon is the imperator

And dual rounds works just fine on it

Edited September 4, 2015 by Acidulant

[Kasumi-]

This literally does nothing good for the mods.

 

Multishot will still be mandatory. This won't fix anything.

[Rankii]

Well they did say they're going to re-balance weapons to account for the changes...  Which will probably come in the form of adjusting clip sizes, etc.

 

BUT!!!!

 

What I want to know is why they heck would they want to go back and adjust/rebalance a hundred or so weapons just because a few forumers found something new to pick on a few weeks ago.

 

Seems a bit like re-inventing the wheel, and hugely redundant work.

 

I'm not commenting on multi-shots specifically, just this whole exercise.  I figured the devs would be busy with something else.  =/

To be fair, the idea of them rebalancing somethign makes me think of Ember. I'd much rather that they just left things as they were.

[ZhurZhur]

Mult shot is mathmaticly going to turn into expensive fire rate mods they already kinda are.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

its possible thjat it might just NOT work because there isnt 2 bullets.

multishot is a general mod meaning that it is usable on all weps, so now theyre gonna limit the use on only certain weps?..

[EetNotErn]

Well they did say they're going to re-balance weapons to account for the changes...  Which will probably come in the form of adjusting clip sizes, etc.

 

BUT!!!!

 

What I want to know is why they heck would they want to go back and adjust/rebalance a hundred or so weapons just because a few forumers found something new to pick on a few weeks ago.

 

Seems a bit like re-inventing the wheel, and hugely redundant work.

 

I'm not commenting on multi-shots specifically, just this whole exercise.  I figured the devs would be busy with something else.  =/

 

 

I'm all for this multishot change but I do agree with you that this is a lot of work and it seems weird that they chose this to finally rework on all the weapons when there's a lot of other stuff that needed to be rebalanced as well. 

 

But maybe this isn't the only change, maybe while they're rebalancing all the weapons for the new multishot change they're also rebalancing the weapons in general. Two birds one stone thing? 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Because the one and only bullethose archwing weapon is the imperator

 

Yes? And? Imperator is arguably the best archgun around.

 

 

 

And dual rounds works just fine on it

 

Except for the part where it's not worth mounting compared to, well, just about anything since it has such a low effect and high cost.

 

 

Imagine if you didn't HAVE to put Split Chamber on your rifle and Serration didn't take up a slot, just like Melee stances. Now you truly have space to customize your weapon. Do you want to focus on elemental procs and damage? Increase your magazine size then pair it with multishot? This is the first step towards a better mod system.

 

Sounds cool. Except nerfing Split Chamber and the like into the ground isn't really a solution to this.

I think the issue here is that DE's saying they're trying to fix one problem, when their actions show they're trying to fix another.

 

They say this is to fix the idea that certain mods are mandatory. And yes this is a problem. But, the trouble with this is that these mods are mandatory because enemy scaling at high levels is such that you need a large amount of DPS to kill effectively. So in effect, this is just a nerf to the usability of every automatic and some semi-automatic guns since we still need that DPS. At the absolute best, this just switches "mandatory" mod from split chamber to the next best mod, perhaps an elemental or event IPS mod.

 

What this "fix" actually fixes is "player damage is too high, let's encourage players to do less damage." Which could be a valid point... Except the player damage needs to be that high to deal with armor and health scaling at later levels. So unless this change is accompanied by a massive rework of enemy scaling, those of us who play high level content are going to be hanging in limbo where our guns are less effective by far but enemies are still just as high damage and high durability as always.

 

And even then, I'm still opposed to making a neat mechanic that isn't present in very many other games into a glorified +ROF boost that most games with weapon customization have on principle, because it takes away part of Warframe's unique flavor.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[IggySnow]

You mean just like coptering, which was also unintended and was around for a long time?

Coptering was a bug that they decided to keep because they liked it.

It might have technically been a "bug" but after it was discovered they kept it and if I remember right actually made it a feature.

So the Coptering excuse is really lame and actually pretty BS. They could have just as easily said"this is a change we have wanted to make for a long time" rather than making an excuse to try and take a little bit of blame off if themselves.

[SanicManic]

Wait, does that mean Synoid Gammacor gets more rate of fire? Lel gitrekt

[Vargras]

Devs did say in the stream that multishot mods were originally intended to consume extra ammo, and the fact that they didn't was just a bug that they rolled with for over two years... like coptering.

[Acidulant]

Yes? And? Imperator is arguably the best archgun around.

Except for the part where it's not worth mounting compared to, well, just about anything since it has such a low effect and high cost.

I didnt say nerf it to 30% just equal to dual rounds

40%-50% is a fine value where people will steer away from using it all the time on hard punchers

And ofc, lower the mod drain

Devs did say in the stream that multishot mods were originally intended to consume extra ammo, and the fact that they didn't was just a bug that they rolled with for over two years... like coptering.

Lol if you really believe that Edited September 4, 2015 by Acidulant

[Grekkatarq]

I suppose this mean we won't use multishot anymore. I haven't problem with the idea the mandatory mods should rebalance but then the other choices needs tweaks and the enemy scaling should be changed because then a fun called game will be a stress run game.

[FelisImpurrator]

I didnt say nerf it to 30% just equal to dual rounds

40%-50% is a fine value where people will steer away from using it on a hard punchers

And ofc, lower the mod drain

This. Make the mod cost of all multishots (including Dual Rounds) ~9 (really, 7-11 range, but to be safe, 9) points. Make them all max out at 50%. Problem more or less solved.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

So if the new multishot applied on a tigris, how will it work? Tigris only have 2 rounds in mag, and since multishot will eat more ammo from mags so it will fire both rounds in 1 shot? What the difference with tigris primary fire? It already fire both rounds without multishot....

[Cubewano]

Devs did say in the stream that multishot mods were originally intended to consume extra ammo, and the fact that they didn't was just a bug that they rolled with for over two years... like coptering.

is that supposed to somehow invalidate the negative repercussions of this change? a bad idea is bad idea even if it was meant to be that way from the start. 

[MJ12]

Okay, devs. We all know there's a problem with the game and how modding works. There are mandatory mods, because you need to mod a weapon to deal more damage to keep up with scaling.

 

This means that we get cookie-cutter builds of multishot/damage/elemental mods. Yes. This is a problem. So let's look at potential solutions to fix this problem.

 

1. Drastically reduce enemy scaling, and reduce the benefit of damage mods significantly while improving the power of the relatively weak utility mods, so that damage mods are no longer superior in all cases to utility mods. If maxed serration only gave you +30% damage like Intensify did, while Fast Hands gave you +120% reload speed, someone might actually choose the latter once in a while.

2. Create dedicated slots for utility mods like the Exilius slot for Warframes. This is the most 'band-aid'y fix, but it would at least fix the issue by letting people use utility mods.

3. Integrate base damage increases into the weapons themselves, so that you no longer have to run a mandatory damage mod to gain any form of effectiveness, like back before "Mods 2.0" came out and you leveled up weapon attributes. Remember back in the day of Mods 1.0 where people didn't just stack +base damage endlessly onto their weapons because a maxed out lv30 weapon with no mods was... I wouldn't say good in the endgame, but it was at least considered viable.

 

All of these actually deal directly with the problem, one might notice. What is not actually a solution:

 

Nerfing one damage mod-the most interesting damage mod out of the group, in fact (because it actually changes weapon behavior while adding damage)-so that it becomes a glorified fire rate mod. Multishot is something unique to Warframe. Other games don't let you make guns which shoot out twice the bullet per bullet. It's as iconic as Excalibur. Nerfing multishot is not a solution to any actual problems, but it is going to remove character from the game.

 

If you want to fix the issue of cookie-cutter +damage builds, it might be better to actually directly address the issue, which is a complex one that nerfing one type of mods will not, in fact, improve. A better solution, as many people have already clamored for, is integrating base damage improvements into the weapons themselves, which would instantly remove the need for the one mod which is actually eternally necessary on every build no matter what it is-Serration/Point Blank/Hornet Strike/Pressure Point.

 

Maybe after that's done, you can look at multishot and find ways to make it more interesting or balanced, but right now, this is like painting the walls of the room when the problem is that there is no roof.

[Eldnacpeek]

They need to fix the infinite scaling and superfluous enemy armor/health/DAMAGE before they can even consider doing this to multishot. It should not even be on their minds right now.

 

If they actually change it without changes to scaling, there's going to be equal to more of an outrage than the PWE announcement.

Edited September 5, 2015 by LazerSkink

[Invalid_Infinity]

Lol if you really believe that

Indeed, it is a very poor excuse.

[Xiusa]

That reach in the title tho

[EetNotErn]

is that supposed to somehow invalidate the negative repercussions of this change? a bad idea is bad idea even if it was meant to be that way from the start. 

 

I can guarantee you that if it were this way from the start there would be hardly a peep from anyone complaining about it. It's just that people don't like change, especially change that boots them from their easy comfort zone.  

 

And it's like your opinion man, that it's a bad idea.

Edited September 4, 2015 by EetNotErn

[DSkred]

I would rather they spend more time on creating content which justifies the immense power our guns possess than to have it be spent in having to go and rework 100+ weapons to compensate a change to a single mod. At this point, multishot mods are a foundation of the game, and changing them means having to potentially change the entire game's foundation. Considering how much content has been added in two years, that is no small feat, and will absolutely take more than a few updates to accomplish. That precious time could be better spent making more trials, mission types, or some form of new and rewarding content.

 

Yes, it would be nice if the mod system allowed for more build diversity, but this is not the way to go about it. A change like this will just cause more trouble than it's worth. 

[WilYen]

you could of just tied multi-shot chance to status chance. would of ended with a better result