Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

[DarkOvion]

8 minutes ago, Zoracraft said:

I believe it says "Open Beta" next to the version/date on the login screen. 

 

Legally, Warframe is technically an open beta, as DE makes that decision to cover their rear when they blow stuff up (like they did here).

 

In operation, it's not a "true" beta. We have a cash shop, the game has been in open beta for around 3 years. It does not deserve, nor should it be given, the same leeway as "true" betas. Anyone who thinks it does apparently thinks it's not a good idea to hold DE to the same standards as full game developers, which is a mistake that leads to the hubris that produced this update. 

It is not.

I checked.

It is listed nowhere, apart from that one forum thread, and within other posts.

I didn't learn it was supposedly a beta for months after I started playing.

[Drufo]

I'm looking forward to the day Balance 2.0 comes.

Still I think you guys are doing a great job, despite some questionable choices. Keep up the good work :)

[Silverton]

So I guess you need to really figure out what content you are trying to "balance" around. Every Warframe trivializes early game content. Around half of all Warframes trivialize "mid" game content. Only a handful of Warframes trivialize what can be called end game content. Early game content is what I consider nodes of level 20 and below and every Warframe can combat at this level and almost every weapon can be used at this level. Mid game content is anything above level 20, but below say 40. Just about half of all frames are considered useful here. End game content would be t3 void, t4 void, sorties, and raids. Not a lot of frames excel here, but some excel pretty good in the right hands. Some end game frames would be Nova and Loki. They are frames that are equipped for all levels of content with a kit that is actually good with powers that don't end up gimped trying to maximize powers.

AT what level of this game are the masses wanting to balance around? Early level content can be shredded by just about anything and will make it all trivialized. I loved old Mag's Pull in this situation as it allowed me to wipe a field of enemies that were below level 16 (this was just with intensify and reach). Mag couldn't wipe mid game content with her two, but the cc was super nice at that level. Ember is an example of a Warframe that can be used in most mid level content. Her 4th ability does decent enough damage and does a good enough job hitting enemies, but isn't good enough for higher level content as the damage falls of pretty hard above level 40. 

Of course them are just a few examples of what Warframes in this game can do in content that is suited for the enemies level. Some Warframes that aren't so good in Mid game though are Warframes that need some major looking at. Limbo's kit is just a mess and has been since day one, Oberon really needs some scaling and isn't much of the paladin anymore and might as well be called a druid with his passive. Mirage had one nice quality and that was Prism. Full map lock down isn't much fun, but she still has the most useless ability in the game Sleight of Hand. 

Back to the topic at hand though. What should be balancing around. Honestly enemy scaling needs to be adjusted. We wouldn't be needing to cheese things if the enemies didn't make 99% of all weapons in the game useless at the end game level. Sorties where the enemies are vastly immune to physical damage or elemental damage drops the weapons I can use to 1 or 2 weapons and makes it to where I need to bring that cheese frame (corpus was Mag and Nova for anything else). Next weapons need a good looking at. This game has over 200 weapons and the vast majority of them aren't worth writing home about. Stradavar was a fun weapon, but the damage on it just sucks. Finally, Warframes as a whole need to be looked at. All Warframes need to have some sort of balance with with it's 4 power stats. To many Warframes are being maximized to their potential and that leads to powers getting gimped. Ash for instance to get Damage and Efficiency up you have to gimp duration which gimps his smokescreen to unusable levels.

Of course any balancing that you do will make early game super easy, mid game more playable, but end game is getting further and further away from being done with a wide range of Warframes. Taking away Mags Polarize usefulness you have taken her off of being viable for end game and the same thing happened with Saryn and to some extent Mesa. Saryn you guys took away her surviveability and then expected me to get within melee range of enemies that'll knock me down and kill my &#! on top of having to have me do a dozen combos that the mods in the game don't make easy to do. I can't add efficiency to her without gimping something, but she needs it. Mesa was always a rocky slope and you guys made her usefullness considerably worse with the changes to her peacemakers. Sure she has shattershield, but I can bring Rhino and be more useful than her and more protected. Saryn I can just substitute with Nova and be more useful. You guys try to make Warframes better all around, but you begin to limit what they can be used in when you do it.

Finally, I want to talk about the Mag changes in particular and I guess this covers all single target abilities. Mag's new flavor seems to be her magnetize ability. What is the point of me focusing on one enemy when I can just as easily aim and kill my enemies. Mag's magnetize is an on the field inconvenience that draws all fire to one enemy and any enemy within the bubble. In any mission where I'd need to focus on one enemy, because of them being dangerous there are other frames I can use that makes the enemy trivial without messing up all of my allies weapons. Making all of her abilities deal a flat damage instead of scaling damage though has limited her for the most part early game and some mid game. When it takes 3+ casts to strip an enemy of all their shields when a few days ago it took one, than she has lost the flavor that made her useful.

[-Temp0-]

4 hours ago, Fifield said:

I agree re: Ballistas but where else do enemies one-hit players?  Melee sure, but where else?  Even level 120 Bursas don't one hit you if you modded properly.

Yes, they don't one-hit kill you with the "right mods" i.e. quick thinking and vitalities stucking on top of vitalities. With the first hit they get your health to 2. With the second, you're a corpse.

Now. Combine this knowledge with the fact that the only true end-game mode that we have now is stupid-*** raids where the whole team should either a) stand on the pads and can't leave them no matter what or they fail b) in case of nightmare or JV (mostly JV but nm has god d*mn nullifiers) the damage dealt to your healt is so high that once again, you're a corpse with both vitality and quick thinking, your mods don't matter.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[ArchPhaeton]

Honestly this kind of updates have killed my interest in the game.

Overall lately, the focus is calling anything that eased the grind pain "an exploit" and nerfing it. Almost nothing has been done to ease the grind, void droptables dilution was a lie, we now have less tools against LV100+ enemies... I've loved the game and stuff like the second dream but we all reach a limit.

[Fait]

So far from testing the skills.

Trinity :

Trinity's blessing rework now only promotes "greedy" trinity. Staying away from the team so they can get their 99% damage reduction. Which completely separates Trinity from being useful anymore on a team. Personally, the range wasn't necessary and I would rather have a reduction be placed as a cap of 75% instead of 99% as a whole (idea taken by h3dsh0t). So right now the only use for trinity is Energy Vampire.

Mag :

Mag's rework is ok at best, her 2nd ability yet again is her strongest ability, making her 3rd a bit of a waste of 75 energy. The only useful skills I can see is yet again, her 1st, 2nd, and 4th ability. Since they are great CC abilities. As a caster warframe, she is one of the weakest when it comes to damage but her CC is pretty nice.

 

Excalibur :

Excalibur still using exalted blade as a beam sword defeats the purpose of using any of the other abilities. Making exalted blade as the most useful/used skill while the other skills become useless. That beam is what promotes "cheese" in this game along with press 4 to win.

 

Volt :

The only issue I can say is the speed's little energy wiggle thing that he leaves for the players, it's not really noticeable, though I can only assume that it could just be a template for what is being done for it. There's also a bit of an issue to seeing the volt shield, especially those with colorblindness.

 

Other than that, the update is pretty good. Just needs some major tweaking.

[H3dsh0t]

1 minute ago, Fait said:

So far from testing the skills.

Trinity :

Trinity's blessing rework now only promotes "greedy" trinity. Staying away from the team so they can get their 99% damage reduction. Which completely separates Trinity from being useful anymore on a team. Personally, the range wasn't necessary and I would rather have a reduction be placed as a cap of 75% instead of 99% as a whole (idea taken by h3dsh0t). So right now the only use for trinity is Energy Vampire.

Mag :

Mag's rework is ok at best, her 2nd ability yet again is her strongest ability, making her 3rd a bit of a waste of 75 energy. The only useful skills I can see is yet again, her 1st, 2nd, and 4th ability. Since they are great CC abilities. As a caster warframe, she is one of the weakest when it comes to damage but her CC is pretty nice.

 

Excalibur :

Excalibur still using exalted blade as a beam sword defeats the purpose of using any of the other abilities. Making exalted blade as the most useful/used skill while the other skills become useless. That beam is what promotes "cheese" in this game along with press 4 to win.

 

Volt :

The only issue I can say is the speed's little energy wiggle thing that he leaves for the players, it's not really noticeable, though I can only assume that it could just be a template for what is being done for it. There's also a bit of an issue to seeing the volt shield, especially those with colorblindness.

 

Other than that, the update is pretty good. Just needs some major tweaking.

I agree with everything here!

[Fifield]

50 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Yes, they don't one-hit kill you with the "right mods" i.e. quick thinking and vitalities stucking on top of vitalities.

No, but if you want help with how to mod, feel free to ask.

[-Temp0-]

7 minutes ago, Fifield said:

No, but if you want help with how to mod, feel free to ask.

I think you need help with understanding what end-game content even means, because lvl 50 enemies aren't "end game".Unless you're invisible or invincible (any form of it, including reliable cc) you will die. If you want to argue, save your "git gud" attitude and false courtesy for someone else who will actually buy it.

[(PSN)StarDustKillah]

You are very good at... words?

Thanks Rebecca

[Evanescent]

BREAK ALL THE EGGS!

[SirWolfen]

@[DE]Rebecca So I know we're not supposed to talk about DC stuff but my proposed change/action to the mesa augment to please those who want the gimmick that is the walk and an augment that would actually benefit peacemaker and you guys just make mesa's waltz open to pve.

[AdunSaveMe]

-You guys put these passives and changes in the game to begin with, despite the feedback.

-You didn't tell us about everything. Like the Voltimate damage cap, for example.

-You've made poor and rushed decisions in the past, and some of those things have not been improved yet.

Sorry, but I'll believe it when I see it. Actions speak louder than words, and I personally find it hard to believe the game will go in a shining new direction and everything will be properly balanced just because of 24 hours of angry threads. I want to believe it'll change, but I can't until it happens. You guys keep making these decisions like putting a damage cap AND a duration on Volt's 4, what's going to suddenly ''fix'' (subjectively) bad design choices? How can people believe things are going to be so vastly improved when a "controls wildlife for a few seconds" passive actually made it into the game in the first place? I've been trying to see the good side and hold out hope for the future of the game's mechanical design for a long, long time, because I KNOW you guys can make it perfect, but it's just getting frustrating now.

Not trying to devbash. Just my opinion.

Edited May 29, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[SteelBlade17x]

One of the reason why i prefer Warframe is the co-op gameplay.

Able to help new players in game is more meaningful than mindless pvps.

Mag Shield Polarize was one of the powers than allows us to crowd control effectively in tough situations when one or more squad mates are down. 

Maybe add more stun or disorientate enemies for Shield Polarize?

 

 

[Aquasurge]

17 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

-You guys put these passives and changes in the game to begin with, despite the feedback.

-You didn't tell us about everything. Like the Voltimate damage cap, for example.

-You've made poor and rushed decisions in the past, and some of those things have not been improved yet.

Sorry, but I'll believe it when I see it. Actions speak louder than words, and I personally find it hard to believe the game will go in a shining new direction and everything will be properly balanced just because of 24 hours of angry threads. I want to believe it'll change, but I can't until it happens. You guys keep making these decisions like putting a damage cap AND a duration on Volt's 4, what's going to suddenly ''fix'' (subjectively) bad design choices? How are some of us supposed to believe things are going to be so vastly improved when a "gives energy and damage if you take a fire proc and survive it" passive actually made it into the game in the first place?

Just my opinion. Not trying to devbash. Mostly just frustrated.

in DE's defense, they were only trying to put passives on all the frames first and then reviewing them after. it didn't really matter how good or bad they were. just remeber that concepts evolve all the time into new and better things.

IMO volt's passive should work backwards, forcing you to keep moving in order to keep up the buff. that, plus lightning dash (maybe passive energy siphon that can apply to team mates??). but the passive should encourage players to keep moving to survive which is great because it teaches newer players how not to die (partially).

[AdunSaveMe]

Just now, Aquasurge said:

in DE's defense, they were only trying to put passives on all the frames first and then reviewing them after.

Which was a bad decision, if true.

They've put work into things that will no doubt be scrapped or reworked entirely if they take our feedback on board. Instead of waiting for good ideas, they rushed out very, very average and underwhelming (and occasionally bad) ideas and spent time actually making them work ingame. So it's not just a disappointment; it's a waste of resources. That's how it looks to me, personally.

[Fifield]

2 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

I think you need help with understanding what end-game content even means, because lvl 50 enemies aren't "end game".Unless you're invisible or invincible (any form of it, including reliable cc) you will die.

Nope, that's just you.  Any frame can have over 1000 EHP with only 2 or 3 mods.  Even without maxed mods.

[Aexic]

I'll believe it when I see it. I await your turn.

Edited May 29, 2016 by ZaeXithos

[akira_him]

when you notice most people out there requires cheese to properly play your game, you know your basic game mechanics went wrong

in every nerf-the-cheese thread in last year there will be post saying the root of evil is enemy scaling and tedious grind, seems none of these post was taken seriously, I will keep login but I guess I will play overwatch and fallout for this moment until things get changed

[AdunSaveMe]

4 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Nope, that's just you.  Any frame can have over 1000 EHP with only 2 or 3 mods.  Even without maxed mods.

A number that quickly becomes worthless, and maxing out EHP is far from a viable option on some frames as it takes up multiple slots and a bunch of points trying to boost very low base stats.

[voltocitygel]

9 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

Someone told me I have blind faith in you guys, the devs. I said I have objective optimism. That hasn't changed. I'm glad you guys are still looking into reducing cheese and making Warframe a fun escape. Looking forward to the next line of updates and I'll be sure to keep bringing feedback.

Then they'd probably say the same to me. I love the game for the content, the community, the gameplay, but most of all for an amazing team who works day and night to keep their game the best game out there. I go through phases with what games I play most often, and in my three years of playing warframe, I've only stopped playing regularly for a month or two combined. No matter how hyped I am to play another game (or read another book), warframe has, and will always come first when it comes to my entertainment. (Except maaaaaaybe swordplay. Maybe.) 

anyway, the point is, keep up the great work DE, and I look forward to seeing you all at tennocon! <3 

[Fifield]

5 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

A number that quickly becomes worthless

Stops you from being one-shot, which is what this conversation is about.

5 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

maxing out EHP is far from a viable option on some frames as it takes up multiple slots and a bunch of points trying to boost very low base stats.

I know it's late but I said " with only 2 or 3 mods".

[HalfDarkShadow]

9 hours ago, Phatose said:

Anybody wanna label that graph's peaks?  Molecular Prime Nerf, Greedy Pull Nerf, Synoid Gammacor Nerf, etc?

For a specific weapon/ability? A few but not that many. It's usually (as the OP mentions) when it's more of a larger game-changing functionality is reviewed and updated.

I will say though the conversations this time around have been pretty constructive, and more-or-less respectful of other perspectives.
At least comparatively to when (for example) when they changed the mod system regarding abilities (when we could only use a Warframe's abilities if we had the mod(s) equipped). Geez were the people here livid...

I remember this one stranger got super upset with me just briefly mentioned how I was pretty excited to see how the new mod system change is going to work out, and boy did they person message me to no end lol. It was borderline harassment, well until I eventually logged out of the game lol. It didn't actually bother me too bad, and only if I was aware of the 'block player' feature.

But back on topic, in all, I still feel generally the same as with every major changes, if it seems like it's heading to the right direction, the more reactionary ones will calm down / forget about it and continue to move on (not about the change persay, but those who have the more "angry" urges to post the night of an update before even giving it a chance lol), and as time passes things get more refined, and everything gets put into place.
As long as the discussion continues and the more player-testing topics/posts comes in, then everything will be fine. As well as those same groups don't get over drowned by the sea of those....other interesting topics/posts of course lol.

Edited May 29, 2016 by HalfDarkShadow

[CandyDragon]

The core problem with this update versus the other changes, is that many of the previous changes were QOL improvements. This is a radical redesign and nerf without addressing the rest of the game.

The general feel of this update is "well you will find another way to break the harder unbalanced and unfun missions". Disregarding any of the reasons people in particular played that way. Or generally any of the games flaws that require you to.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Nariala

[Shemarria]

9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

In direct respect to what is 'familiar' with these surges:

There was a time we changed Stamina, voices surged (so sayeth the graph), and then we completely redid our entire Parkour & Melee System. Every time we shake things up – no matter how lightly - the impact is objectively better. We see more people are interested in the game, and more people realize the impact their collective constructive views have on the game. There are a few counter-narratives that often indicate the end of times, I've seen it a lot over the years, but ultimately things come out better and bigger as a result. I'm not saying it doesn't have growing pains, though!

It bears repeating that more changes are coming soon. We will be hotfixing like mad next week, and getting deeper into difficulty discussions in terms of the enemy. It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it.

I honestly can't think of anything I'd like to be doing more than playing Warframe right now, hashing out feedback together, and getting things ready for the next Hotfix. So if you see me in game all weekend, that's what I'm up to!

Please accept our experimentation - the messy and the clean - and be open to iteration – it's been a big part of Warframe's development and community history. Over the course of each release, you'll find so many of the changes, additions, and fixes exist because of these moments.

-[DE]Rebecca

Sorry lotus, but the nerf to Valkyr, though un-needed and honestly mean-spirited (her armour is useless against things like level 30+ Balistae Grineer, and don't get me started on the [expletive deleted] Corpus nulifiers; which are a pox on the game since introduction) wasn't nearly as horrible as what the coders did to poor Trinity.

Excalibro who had FINALLY become useful and playable for end-game missions; now he's back to being -meh- and only good for low end mission regardless of multi-forma builds.  Then there is what the company did to Mag.  NOT an improvement.  Not one bit.  I've filed tested and she is nothing more than a blue-tinted target.  There is NO synergy with her 'tweaked' abilities and flattening everything to a flat damage as opposed to sliding scale?!  Who's small-minded myopic decsion was that?

Though I WILL say I like 80% of the passives included, but they do not in any way mitigate ruining (yes, ruining) several suits which were FINE as-is.
Full-stop.  End of line. 

Saying players were "trivilizing" is like saying that breathing regularly is tantamount to spamming; Valkyr IS a rage fuled tank: it's in her bloody (pun intended) lore description.  Mag was anti-Corpus; heck, with the number of nulifiers in later stage missions or endless-runs, her polarization power barely netted more than a handfull of kills, IF that... why punish players for using that power (lower the radius, not the scaling damage output)?  Trinity... my gods, WHY!?  She was the ONLY frame capable of keeping a team alive on those nerve wracking and rage-inducing interception and even survival missions with numerous leech / parasite eximus.  50m max? total radius to help players who might, just might DESPERATELY need a boost to shields and health on a spy mission.  Sorry, not everyone wants to bunch up.

We, many of the players will NOT accept the "party line" excuses for this.  Call it like it is; it is mean spirited punishment... unless... UNLESS the next patch is a REDUCTION on enemy powers and the removal of things like energy leeching eximus and the reviled nulifiers.  In which case, fine.
 

Do not expect the majority of us to take this sitting down or sliently.

I know you, personally, really didn't have anything to do with the final decison to implement the recent scatt-storm of un-needed & unwelcome changes, but please do inform the rest of the devs that this is inexcusable as it stands presently.