The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Shockwave-]

12 minutes ago, -Unscripted- said:

You forgot the fact that this is THEIR game and they have every rights to change things they see fit. They just can't give in to everything the community wanted. 

Well they can have a game with zero players in it too. It's not their game it's our game really. We paid for it right? Making it fari and balanced is fine, but QOL items like vacuum are not over powered and didn't deserve a nerf. They COULD have given vacuum to all the other sentinels at 6m and left carrier 100% as it was. As a carrier user I would not have begrudged you getting to use Helios with 6m vacuum and all carrier has is just vacuum because I prefer the 12.5 meters. I have yet to hear a good reason why it shouldn't have been done that way. Why the new precept for carrier?

[Chipputer]

Just now, Imaru said:

having not touched carrier for months (been using kubrows and kavats) I'm not seeing it as a negative change. In fact, quite the contrary. 

This is the main issue.

People are so quick to complain about the range changes instead of taking the time to see why those of us who don't regularly use Carrier made the choice not to by experimenting with other sentinels. It's insanity.

[Brane_Ded]

I've been here since closed beta and I've never felt the need to say anything about an update until today.  This update is bloody pǝpɹɐʇǝɹ and I will wait until Vacuum is corrected or undone to bother with the game anymore. 

Edited cause apparently a certain musical term is censored in Canada.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Brane_Ded

[Kaotyke]

11 minutes ago, Racter said:

No, they are aware this is a nerf. They just want to get a consolidated list of reasons from pro-nerf people that amounts to more than mockery. Surely some of these people have some kind of logical position they can defend, right?

I can only put the pluses and the minuses:

Before,

It was exclusive for 1 Sentinel (-)

It had 12m Radius (+)

It was a Mod (-)

After:

Its a freature for all Sentinels (+)

It has a 6m Radius (-)

Its NOT a Mod (+)

I believed that there would be a counter balance because of the changes, before, the 12m was acceptable because only Carrier could use it, it limited yourself to use 1 Sentinel should you want to grab loot faster, the fact that it would be reduced when it was made a passive and was not a mod was something at I knew was comming.

I'm still on the fence about the radius, I would have liked it to be 7m, but honestly? I see a lot of those who are unsatisfied with the changes that DE stated to be a WIP to be cause of "RIP Carrier, you are no longer useful", "Its completely useless", "Game is ruined, I quit Warframe" (This last one made me roll my eyes so bad I was able to see I had a lizard on my roof)...

I try to find a good feedback as for why it should be changed back or be bigger and so far the only one I've seen do some constructive critscism was LoKor because of his calculations and analisis and he IS against the current radius.

Am I against it? No, people who want to vacuum loot up can use all sentinels now. Am I happy with the current radius? Not much, but I need to test more, however I dont have much time this week to be in-game.

Being an impartial critic is a pain...

[YUNoJump]

12 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

The solution was actually quite simple. Don't give carrier anything new. It's new precept SHOULD have been a 6.5m range increase for vacuum. That would have satisfied everyone. Then if helios with 6m vacuum was really worth it, DE would know from usage statistics, if everyone still used carrier then they would know it wasn't worth it.

If Carrier kept the same range, while every other sentinel had a smaller range, then the issue of Carrier being overused isn't solved. Vacuum range is clearly the most valued effect of sentinels, or else we wouldn't see the storm of anger that's currently happening.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

37 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

I like it, too.

Funny thing is that it ended up this way cause of the flipout over the break up to 3 mods.

funny thing is, the community's been asking for universal carrier for a long time, the flip out was because it was a bad way to do it, and the continued unhappiness is because they still gave us a bad implementation of the idea. Lesson, DE still isn't listening to its community in a real way.

[Barely_Ironic]

I used Carrier all the time for Vacuum, but always wished It actually did something. Now I have Helios doing exactly the same job but now putting weak points on enemies and scanning rare eximus units that I haven't finished in my codex yet. I seriously cannot comprehend how people are complaining, Vacuum doesn't even take up a precept slot any more, and all I have to do is take a step closer to the object? It's amazing!

[notlamprey]

Disagree.

I'm having to stop and deliberately move towards individual pieces of loot, which feels functionally the same as not having vacuum at all.

I haven't even tested how it feels in squads, and I'm not looking forward to it.

In the interest of disclosure, I had a very efficient system for looting entire maps quickly in search of Ayatan Sculptures / Stars / Syndicate tokens. With the decreased range of vacuum, that system no longer works. I'm reduced to hunting at the speed of 'no vacuum,' which takes several times as long.

Unsurprisingly, I don't feel very good about the change right now.

[Xzorn]

I have no idea how you're playing where you get that the higher concentration of items is near the player.

Second the radius is exponentially worse because of the activation timing associated with Vacuum. When an item enters the area of effect it becomes subject to a timer that pulls it in. This timer was recently reduced a month or so ago which is why Vacuum was already ignoring items at times. Given the lower range it now more frequently ignores items since they're within the radius for less time.

Vacuum outclasses everything else because of scaling and the current damage system. Something good is better than complete crap. It's as simple as that. As an endurance runner nothing but a Sentinel will suffice. Cats and Dogs get one shot and you loose damage output reviving them all the time. They're useless even with their buffs. Other Sentinels are unreliable and die far easier.

Carrier was always useful beyond Vacuum because he has 2,874 eHP allowing him to live longer than other sentinels when you make a mistake. This means more Guardian procs, more Medi-Ray and more close range CC that's far more dependable than any other Sentinel abilities.

[Xekrin]

27 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

my orthos prime range currently. And a lot less than the hexis boltace slide. It's even less than my galatine.

You mention 3 of the highest ranged melee weapons in the game and have primed reach on them to boot.  

YES THE VACUUM RANGE ON LOWER THAN CARRIER VERSION, HERE'S A THOUGHT USE ANOTHER SENTINEL THAT HAD 0 VACUUM RANGE PRIOR TO TODAY AND SEE HOW IT FEELS???????

People are just going to have to break their dependency on carrier and branch the frak out.  

31 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

I don't really want to dash about in circles grabbing loot I miss when I've dashed into a hoarde of enemies and all the loot ends up behind me. 

I was one of the highest advocates of having vacuum on more than just carrier (yes on the frame is still my hope), to allow us more choices.  I despised those who constantly argued anyone who used carrier were just lazy, but my gods the complaints that people have to move a couple more steps is just soaring beyond any rationale.

I used Telos Boltace constantly the past couple weeks with my smeeta kavat.  I had to actually WALK ON TOP OF LOOT to pick it up.  I miss TONS.  Now I can use ANY SENTINEL I CHOOSE and only have to get within 6 meters?  How terrible OMGOSH!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOO*stopsforsmoke*OOOOOOOOOOO.......

[Shockwave-]

4 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

If Carrier kept the same range, while every other sentinel had a smaller range, then the issue of Carrier being overused isn't solved. Vacuum range is clearly the most valued effect of sentinels, or else we wouldn't see the storm of anger that's currently happening.

So you are admitting that people still prefer old carrier to the new sentinels with a 6m vac. So DE gave us all the finger. We weren't using their other sentinels enough so they took away our toy. It wasn't a game breaking toy, or an OP toy, just something everyone seemed to like. It's like Coke realizing 80% of their customers drink coke and only 20% drink sunkist and A&W and Diet Coke. So they make coke taste TERRIBLE so more people will choose the other ones.

Why is it important to DE to make sure all the sentinels get used? who cares? we evaluated all the sentinels and we all seemed to prefer one. If that one isn't Overpowered game wise, we just like it, then what is the problem? Come out with new sentinels that compete.

If sentinel equality was all important, then they should all get a 12.5 meter range. If equality between sentinels is the issue then fine. There is still no solid reasoning for the nerf of the range. If the range was OP to being with, then it should have been nerfed on carrier regardless. However nobody has ever said the range was too big. Tying it to universal vacuum and calling it a player driven change is drivel.

 

[Mak_Gohae]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

funny thing is, the community's been asking for universal carrier for a long time, the flip out was because it was a bad way to do it, and the continued unhappiness is because they still gave us a bad implementation of the idea. Lesson, DE still isn't listening to its community in a real way.

they have to juggle a lot of stuff and this was the best way after players didnt like the previous idea.

Vac on everyone hit several things they have to balance, it's not just picking up items.

[Chipputer]

4 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

more close range CC that's far more dependable than any other Sentinel abilities.

Wyrm, Diriga, and Djinn say hi. Along with being able to shoot enemies for CC effects, they frequently trigger CC effects that affect a wide range of enemies in certain numbers and distances. I can't think of a single time I'd have preferred my Carrier shooting that one enemy near me over Wyrm knocking the entire group down, then shooting the stragglers.

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

You mention 3 of the highest ranged melee weapons in the game and have primed reach on them to boot.  

YES THE VACUUM RANGE ON LOWER THAN CARRIER VERSION, HERE'S A THOUGHT USE ANOTHER SENTINEL THAT HAD 0 VACUUM RANGE PRIOR TO TODAY AND SEE HOW IT FEELS???????

People are just going to have to break their dependency on carrier and branch the frak out. 

 

Except Carrier is still the best support Companion due to it's surviveability at high levels. There's still no reason to use other Sentinels beyond a gimmick mission.

Companion damage is garbage and Dogs/Cats run head first into rockets and get one shot. So due to the faults of the game, not Vacuum, the best role for companions is utility and support. Of which Carrier is still the best choice because he survives the longest.

More Guardian procs, more Medi-Ray, more Sweeper CC (which is far more reliable than other abilities).

[Neihoyea]

The way I see this is different. I believe that making it universal on sentinels are a step in the right direction, but why not just make it simply as a passive on all Warframes? That way you are allowed to choose any sentinels or PETS you like to. DE can put a key bind toggle just for the 0.1% of players that actually doesn't like to have vacuum. Make the range 5 meters by default, and a universal companion mod that can increase it to 12 meters, and everyone would be happy. For people who doesn't mind the 5 meters you save a slot for other mods on your companion. For those who are already used to 12 meters (80%+ of player base tbh), now they can use other companions. For those who enjoy spending quality time picking up loot by walking and not killing things in a game like Warframe, just toggle it off. Win for everyone.

The problem of this change is that for those who actually do not like vacuum, they would not be able use sentinels at all. And the problem is this has been suggested so many times I cannot think of any reasons not to have it as a warframe passive other than the devs being stubborn.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Neihoyea

[shyguyk]

4 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

they have to juggle a lot of stuff and this was the best way after players didnt like the previous idea.

Vac on everyone hit several things they have to balance, it's not just picking up items.

I personally think the pickup range for energy orbs in particular is too big (eh, maybe not with how EV currently is)

They should move it to warframes tho so cats and doges can be used with it.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

Just now, Mak_Gohae said:

they have to juggle a lot of stuff and this was the best way after players didnt like the previous idea.

Vac on everyone hit several things they have to balance, it's not just picking up items.

dont make excuses for them, this wasn't the best way, as evidenced by... Well look at the forums... and a passive 12m pick up doesn't effect the game any differently than everyone using carrier, and it literally is JUST picking up items, thats what it does, we're taking vacuum here not fomorian technology, and all the stuff they had to juggle was a bunch of ideas by the community on how to do it better, which DE apparently dropped close to all of them.

[-TSA-TimSin]

1 hour ago, CCamp88 said:

And people complaing the range isnt far enough... hell, the only time where more range would help you is when its pulling objects through the terrain. Yeah, thats realistic (detect the sarcasm there)

You play warframe because it's realistic? (detect sarcasm there)

I am just talking about the range nerf here. You think it's just right. I don't.

Would you be mad if it was still at 12m?

I sure am mad that it's just 6m. It's ... ... ... ... ... ... ... (Those points protect me from warning points!)

[Obviousclone]

why isn't vacuum 12m

 

why isn't vacuum 100m

 

why does loot even drop from enemies

 

why do I even have to level up gear

 

why do I even have to kill enemies to begin with

 

why do I even have to download this game

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Ammo mutation is nice...but a +range mod for Vacuum...yes? 

Or would it simply relegate non-carriers to storage (again?)

[Monsterwithin]

40 minutes ago, ComCray said:

Oh, you think filling up the forum with thousands of the same posts is helpful? Or will people just ignore the whole forum because of this?

Really bro, the issue is not as important as you all make it out to be. Whiney little such and so...

Uh okay, wouldn't say thousands, that's a bit extreme.
Also I'm not whiny, if you was trying to do a insult towards me.

Anyhow, I just think Megathreads are worse because they are usually ignored more, because who wants to read 200+ confusing pages long.
Atleast if a Megathread was more organized with the merging of topics, It wouldn't be too bad.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Monsterwithin

[--AJ-Larkhans]

[LuckyCharm]

6 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

I was one of the highest advocates of having vacuum on more than just carrier (yes on the frame is still my hope), to allow us more choices.  I despised those who constantly argued anyone who used carrier were just lazy, but my gods the complaints that people have to move a couple more steps is just soaring beyond any rationale.

I was an advocate of putting carriers on warframes, I can see why they kept it just for sentinels since noone would ever use a sentinel when they had a cat or dog that survived longer. 

Yes I use primed reach, on everything except fists, and I'm sure a lot of people do. Even though I named the long range melee's, but there's a lot of them, and more with every update since most things added lately have been heavy blade, or hammers. 

I don't like missing loot. Especially when it leaves a marker on my minimap showing a chest (because resources still seem to mark as unopened chests on the minimap) and I really don't see how an increase to what we already had with old carrier is a bad thing. 

 

Also I have a 8 forma'd kubrow named sprinkles so I'm used to running around without a vaccuum. But it doesn't always mean when I want to farm resources that I'd be taking sprinkles with me. 5m is too short when I'm dashing about in survivals killing for life support. 

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

4 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

why isn't vacuum 12m

 

why isn't vacuum 100m

 

why does loot even drop from enemies

 

why do I even have to level up gear

 

why do I even have to kill enemies to begin with

 

why do I even have to download this game

what is the meaning of life?

[Loswaith]

2 hours ago, Cyandana said:

... all but eliminated the core PvE experience of "picking up your loot". ...

The core of PvE (Player vs Environment) isn't collecting loot (loot isn't your environment, it is a mechanic), it is about shooting, stabbing, eviscerating and otherwise neutralizing the enemies and traversing through the levels (enemies and mission levels are the enviroment).

Edited October 6, 2016 by Loswaith