[The Index] General Feedback

[Ny_Soro]

In height of the recent reviews on the index. I have come to some conclusion that should be done with the 'Higher risk = Better reward' deal here. Once a player completes the operation and is doing endurance for the mission. They should be able to choose how many credits should be applied as sort of a 'buy-in' ((Note we should have it capped at a certain number to prevent massive credit farming)) but have it much higher than 6k creds for the highest risk. 

On another note of the drop rates of said mods maybe you could have it to sink extra credits to allow an increase on drop rate.

[Hayabusa97]

Enemies are pretty neat though at the Sortie and Beyond levels, they become ridiculous.

 

Someone compiled an album of all the Index enemies in the codex: http://imgur.com/a/vNEiR

[VampirePirate]

This is the only time in my years of playing warframe when i actually felt pain from losing.

Point stealing is a problem, and it makes the team members work against each other instead of being co-op.

This game does not need this and seriously needs to promote teamwork.

[Babellon]

question: what are you referring to about not being able to carry more than 5 points? I just did a run and dropped 10 at a time 3 times in a row....perhaps I had a bonus on at the time, but I haven't noticed any situation. Perhaps its different in team play as there are more dynamics I may not be encountering.

@VampirePirate yes I can agree that would be a problem, even when I'm solo having the spectres pick up points keeps me from getting to my goal and I can imagine it being much more trouble with actual players doing it, all trying to get their points and no one working together. Teamwork is the idea and something I think DE needs to work on more in all of Warframes missions, as it seems everyone runs amok freestyle in every map because there are no risks and the reward is the same regardless.

Now, as to how we can make people play well together in a more team friendly COOPerative way I do not know. but good luck to al you team players on figuring that out,,,I do how ever agree with the premise.

[DarkOvion]

This is incredibly easy.

It's 5 in the morning, I've been up all day, I've worked for quite some time, then after some other stuff and playing Starcraft for a while, I played this, I'm barely awake.

It's too easy.

I set myself the challenge of only entering the goal once, either when ironskin ran out, or I had enough to win the game.

Ironskin never ran out.

This was the average result.

I could have got more.

I don't think I saw the Anyo Corp get more than 6 points.

The Endurance ones Timer added a little something, a little bit of something to work towards, but even then the AI isn't that bright.

[Shockwave-]

2 minutes ago, Babellon said:

question: what are you referring to about not being able to carry more than 5 points? I just did a run and dropped 10 at a time 3 times in a row....perhaps I had a bonus on at the time, but I haven't noticed any situation. Perhaps its different in team play as there are more dynamics I may not be encountering.

@VampirePirate yes I can agree that would be a problem, even when I'm solo having the spectres pick up points keeps me from getting to my goal and I can imagine it being much more trouble with actual players doing it, all trying to get their points and no one working together. Teamwork is the idea and something I think DE needs to work on more in all of Warframes missions, as it seems everyone runs amok freestyle in every map because there are no risks and the reward is the same regardless.

Now, as to how we can make people play well together in a more team friendly COOPerative way I do not know. but good luck to al you team players on figuring that out,,,I do how ever agree with the premise.

not can't, doesn't matter.

1ont = 1pnt, 2=2, 3=5, 4=6, 5=10.

I think that is the progression but i know 5=10 so at carrying 5 you get 5 more bonus.

At carrying 10 you get 10 bonus. So dumping in 5 twice is the same as dumping in ten.

So there is no point to carrying more than 5. You can, it's just dumb.

[Babellon]

Just now, Shockwave- said:

snip

oh I see, so its capped and carrying over that wont actually add to the total...gotcha

well that's interesting. I hadn't noticed it so much probably because I'm solo and usually run to bank it when I have a few without really paying attention to my actual count, I only noticed it this time as I was thinking about this thread.

[LuckyCharm]

I'm having a good time with this one, I've only played solo since I really don't want people to cheese me out of my credit bonus. However, this mode does showcase that the corpus can be fun without cheesy nullifiers, even if you can't really spam abilities here.  I'd much prefer these enemies to be thrown into normal missions instead of nullifiers and the annoying sapping/mine ospreys

[Perekta]

Long term the game mode doesn't feel very rewarding to play. There's lower hassle credit farms on the starchart and most of the mods don't feel worth farming for, since they're for weapons that are just too weak to use. Please buff the weapons so we can actually use them. I'd hate to see these mods added only to gather dust in our inventories.

[Xiusa]

Pretty fun. Robotic enemies are kinda way too tanky though

[Vali]

Index and Index 2 aren't that difficult, though I had a few 'oh sh1t!' moments during Index 2. 

Endurance really needs a tweak since it goes from lv50 to 500 in a blink of an eye, where our weapons literally only tickle the enemy.

 

A good middle ground hasn't been reached. Also the mods given out are pretty meh, Prova could do with a better mod, Detron seems to be the only one to prove useful. I'm hoping the rest of the mods (in a probable future release) don't disappoint. 

 

Also the pickup radius for the Index points are a bit annoying, but just a bit. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by Agentawesome

[xxseedlexx]

I like the MOAs that have guns for heads

[ssh83]

Problem 1: In Endurance, enemy levels don’t increase until capitalization happens. So players can bank up on points with level 50 enemies and then turn-in all at once to skip difficulty scaling. With 4 players all doing this, you can easily jump from 0 to 100 with relative ease. (or more importantly, jumping from 50 to 150 with ease and not needing to deal with lvl 200+ enemies to get to 150).

Do NOT just remove this completely. Rather, it is cool to allow players to have this strategy, but there needs to be passive time-based enemy scaling in Endurance on top of score-based scaling. Maybe also cap the number of points one can hold to 12. (2 unit of margin on top of maximum bonus).

 

Problem 2: Difficulty fluctuates wildly based on enemy team’s draft. Competitively, this automatically means cheapskate strategy of restarting game until they get an easy draft before going for long haul.

Instead, endurance should increase the size of enemy team until all the enemy types are present. This allows randomness for regular play in early game, but in long-duration competitive endurance, the difficulty will equalize in the long run. So one team’s 200 point finish is equally respectable as another team’s 200 point finish.

 

Problem 3: The way personal point quota works is anti-cooperative. It is extremely easy for good players to screw other people over by getting to the victory quota (intentionally or unintentionally). It is also near impossible for all four players to get 20 points when the game ends after around 45. Current system makes players feel like losers even when the team won. It encourage player to solo the event and it’s a griefer paradise at worst case. To maintain a positive community, there should not be system that create unavoidable animosity between players.

 

Problem 4: Betting reward vs difficulty scaling is broken for Endurance. Linear increase in reward is not fitting with the doubling difficulty. Lower challenge requirement to 20, 35, 50. If requirement is changed to team-based, then it can be 40, 60, 80.

 

Problem 5: AI’s current tendency to hang around with points is good default behavior to allow player time to catch up to them. However, when the players have stronger and stronger lead, the AI should be more and more aggressive at capitalizing points quickly.

[Zarozian]

Where is the trophy for the clans.

And the leader boards for Index?

And the Operation with the number of points you scored on your profile status?

Edited October 21, 2016 by Zarozian

[That1Cactus]

As the title says. Once we spawn from capturing points or dying, the enemies and their "balanced insta-kill" always shoot immediately upon spawning, making it impossible to counter.

Please consider fixing the spawns so that it prevents spawn killing.

[AdunSaveMe]

Players should have invincibility when respawning for three seconds, or until they take an action. That'd solve it.

[Fearless_Observer]

57 minutes ago, VampirePirate said:

This is the only time in my years of playing warframe when i actually felt pain from losing.

Point stealing is a problem, and it makes the team members work against each other instead of being co-op.

This game does not need this and seriously needs to promote teamwork.

Point stealing from my teammates was like having a personal stalker the whole mission, but i didn't care too much because I was scanning the enemies. But I understand how that could be annoying if you liked the mission and wanted to do more runs in the future. I had a Mirage that was following me all the way through the mission until karma instant killed her and I got my index points back. I was lmao until the end of the mission.

I have to say that this event is a little troll friendly in that regard.

[Neofaucheur]

Some issues I've notice :

The Bursa Broker (Auditor, I think) sometime into an invincible turret that goes on rampage and kill everyone around without even the slightest chance of retaliate or even survive. It's... almost a major issue to the game mode balance, if it were not for a few other things...

Currently it's impossible to actually lose in this game mode since the enemies can't score, at worst you'll lose a few credit if you can't even manage to "cash in" 5 points.

If you consider a full team of average player it's impossible to meet the "hard" mode requirement, so it has no real incentive to play it because it's :
- statistically to hard, unless you're way more skilled than all your team mates
- it's not rewarding (Appear not relevant, since I didn't played through all the different Index level)
- the "normal" mode is pretty much safe

By the way rewards are very low. Even if you are able to meet the hard requirement on every game you play, by the time you earned 6k credit by risking to lose 6k you could have gained 20k by playing another game mode. (Appear not relevant, since I didn't played through all the different Index level)

These are the points I think need a serious review to make this game mode interesting.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Neofaucheur
Since I didn't played through all the different Index nodes some things I pointed out were irrelevant

[Midnim]

too many people are posting based on the basic mode rather than the absurdity that is endurance

 

75k buy in, 75k profit if you get 100 points. if that isn't enough, by time the team cashes in 25 points, you're looking at level 200 enemies and being 1 shot by stray bullets or splash damage

[Babellon]

That's all info they need, theres a mega thread for feedback to go to devs for final build, this was the 'preview' the test phase in which we give them all the bits n pieces to work at for actual release later.

[Miser_able]

Don't forgot how the enemy so seems to avoid your teams so and go after you instead and how your team (AI) steal points from you

[Raidax]

Gracious Lotus, I bring you news. Good news, in fact. And a grievance. 

It's not a big grievance? But it somehow managed to worm its way beneath my armor plating and simply cannot be ignored. Ah, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

First and foremost, I am not a Tenno that shies away from conflict. In fact, I thrive on it! I am forever looking to my next conquest whether it be blundering my way through infiltrating well defended Corpus vaults or incinerating everything in sight when boarding an errant Grineer galleon. From time to time, I'm even in the Void to help trim the phosphorescent plants or sabotage the enemy's efforts to bolster the Corrupted ranks. I have even shown you this and told you of my time in the field before. I should hope that my dedication to our cause of maintaining peace and stability goes as unquestioned as the knowledge that there is no air in space. I will gladly be the first into a battlefield and the last to leave when that battle is done. However, there is one caveat.

I am no fan of Teshin. Or his idealism.

Indeed, I do not share his philosophy that the Tenno should seek to hone their skills on one another. What happens if we have an accident and someone falls on a Nikana blade? Or takes a face full of buckshot while their shields are down? They'd be wasting a perfectly good suit of armor! Can you imagine what the Operators would feel like after the fact? What they would do? Group missions would begin with apologies for lost limbs followed by - ...but I digress. The Tenno are masters of blade, gun, and self. Some must learn to wield certain weapons, that much is true, but with a seemingly inexhaustible supply of Grineer floating around the Black, (You like that? I heard about that term from an ancient video series.) a Tenno can become fully realized with any weapon. Therefore, it goes without saying that you will never see me enter the Conclave. Especially not when my opponents will be fellow Tenno. I would prefer to see our ingenuity put to better use. I don't want to use another's warframe as a whetstone. Then again, I suppose this is why I'm no faction leader or a free thinking idealist.

 

Having said that, I was in the process of deciding which warframe to employ for a couple of important missions to Pluto when Ordis informed me of a message to reach my inbox. Immediately, I was filled with dread. Did you finally answer one of my love letters? Or was it someone stating that I'd double parked my Orbiter? I opened the missive to find it was neither! It seems as though He-with-no-fashion-sense has concocted some new money making scheme that would work in tandem with everyone's goal to see the Tenno eliminated. It was an invitation to something he called "The Index," and it would be equal opportunity. Bet money, shoot things... I'm sure you know the deal. You can imagine my apprehension though... word on the Void says it takes place in the Arenas. Having done all I could to avoid that place to begin with, I decided to swallow my insecurities about stepping foot in the Arena in order to put boot to butt to Nef Anyo ... Wait. Does he even have a butt? He looks like a giant blue void key. Does he have to plug himself in every night? I wonder who polishes his ... exterior.

Anyway. 

After consulting with a close ally of mine about this Index, I armed myself with a pair of weapons close to my heart and ventured into the Arena. Once I placed my bet and was given a brief tutorial on how to participate, it was off to the races and boy oh boy, was it ever a blast.

 

I'm not quite sure how to adequately word the entirety of my experience. (Strange, given I seem to be chock full of words, right?) I was paired with other Tenno and pitted against a Corpus sub-faction called "The Brokers." Fitting, given that I broke them. The match was over in minutes. What I figured was going to be a slog was instead a waltz through the dragon lilies. The Brokers had no idea what hit them! While my team of Tenno performed admirably, I daresay it was my unfathomably deadly skill with akimbo weaponry and the time I've spent in the field that really gave our team the edge it needed to win. Before I knew it, I ducked back into the Arena, betting an even higher sum of money. This time, my valued ally joined me and together we utterly annihilated the Brokers! Through fire and fury we triumphed, drawing more from Nef Anyo's emptying bank account. (The winnings have to come from somewhere and he is the host. I can only assume it's coming from him. Which was ...not smart? Well thought out? I dunno.) 

It was only in the afterglow of the second match (It was a really amazing match, don't judge me,) that the grievance came to light. My ally pointed out to me, in that zen-like moment between a firefight and the immediate aftermath, our teammate in the Frost warframe was dual wielding Hek shotguns! "You're kidding!" I had said. "Nope," my ally replied, "He was definitely dual wielding Heks."

BACK IN WE WENT!

I knew that, regardless of how much was bet, we'd come out on top. It was like these Brokers were recent graduates of Neptunean Clown College. The AI in the robotics was shabby at best. I think the one they called the Auditor proved to be the more challenging one but being bullet proof from the front side would make anyone formidable. I didn't encounter our friend in the Frost immediately, but then again, when you're in and out in two and a half minutes... We entered in twice more and sure enough, come our fifth match, I saw it. The Frost with the arms of oxium. He was in a battle with the robots they called Azoth and the Raptor RX. With one gun to either robot, he squeezed the triggers and blew them both to shreds before my very eyes ...face. Imagine my surprise!

My darling Lotus, have you been holding out on us? We turned to the almighty Clem in order to learn how to efficiently wield a pair of Grakatas. Who must we talk to in order to learn this Frost's secret? I would train with that master of mayhem atop the snow capped peaks of Europa if it meant I could bring the power of a pair of Heks - even Vaykor Heks - to bear against our enemies. The Sentients wouldn't stand a chance!

*ahem*

At any rate. This latest scheme of Nef Anyo's serves to be a distraction at best. While entertaining, and a great way for a Tenno to deepen their own credit collection, our focus should remain with the system as a whole. Mr. Void Key's sub-faction are but a speed bump on the road to our distant victory. That said, I find myself strangely drawn into this event despite my best efforts to remain impartial. I should also remark that Cephalon Sark's commentary was on point. I wasn't too keen on it every time it mentioned that one of us was carrying a remarkable number of index points but then again, it wouldn't be very fair if one of the Brokers discovered this the hard way only to die from a biblical amount of gunfire. In the spirit of fair play, Cephalon Sark is in the right and I don't begrudge it the duty it performs.

 

(TL;DR: Pity you missed the fun. Go read it, you might like it. The Index was easy to complete and the AI wasn't challenging save for when the Bursa got itself into a hallway. I'm sure if a player wasn't supremely adept at bullet jumping, aiming and whatnot, they'd have a bit harder a time but all in all, good times. It's a great thing to jump into for a quick couple minutes, grease the enemy team and jump back out again. I love how we have Tenno specters to help us out in the match, by the by. Not only do they give the player a chance to get in and screw something up but they also provide great bonuses like the Volt periodically casting speed and the Mag casting magnetize. This would be an excellent mainstay to the game. It'd be great practice for people to warm up to the Conclave since it's a similar environment and lacking in truly vicious opponents.)

[Xekrin]

I think one major concern for this new mode is going to be "this isn't pvp".  If it is, put it there, call it that, make it use conclave rules and so on.  But as it stands now it isn't and there is (going to be) a lot of strife between players, especially (or primarily) in random public squads.

Main thing is Point stealing - You kill something, or using the vastly assorted array of aoe abilities/weapons, lots of somethings.  Someone swoops in and takes your green glowing diamond things.  On more than one match, my points are far far lower than my kills.

Solution (if this pitting us against each other thing must remain), freeze the green affinity point things against anyone else picking it up for like 5 seconds.  If I kill something I should be given a few seconds to finish my animations, reorient myself and collect my winnings.  Instead all someone has to do is stand back, wait for me or it to die and hop in to collect.

Also the number of points required NEEDS to allow some wiggle room for everyone to get all points required.  Even in a completely friendly clan only match with 4 people.  Someone isn't getting their 20 points.  20 x 4 != 50

I don't know about solo or duo matches, so its probably easier to just do it that way for people who don't want to fight over points.  I saw a few times that points went above 50 as well, so it may very well be possible to just hold off on the 50th point UNTIL everyone has 20 circling them but again, there is this bonus thing, what THAT does, and the fear that if I die someone gets my points.

I know Nef Anyo would love to see us tear each other apart or whatever, and if that is the case, then by all means, let him encroach his new game mode on teshin's toes and put it in conclave.

Until then, this is PvE game mode and we shouldn't have to worry about the selfish pvp mentality here please.  I'm happy this is just a preview, and that bugs and so on are going to be closely looked at before the official permanant release of this game mode.  I only hope this is taken into consideration as well.

I like the concept, and its quite fun,, especially with the (albeit minor) risk of losing credits, but I hate that feeling of anger I get in the pit of my stomach when another player takes my points and I fall short of my goal, even if all I am losing is a few (thousand) credits.  It is the same feeling I get when I play conclave and a particularly annoying player kills me over and over and seems to feed his kill streak on just me alone and just doesn't seem able to be killed by anyone else.

I don't want that feeling in pve content at all.  OP kill steals by ash, spamulor mirage or augment4th banshee is annoying enough but at least I dont actually "lose" anything to them in normal gameplay.  Here I am quite literally losing progress in the game just because someone wants to get the most points even if I do all the work.

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Zarozian said:

Where is the trophy for the clans.

And the leader boards for Index?

And the Operation with the number of points you scored on your profile status?

This is a preview event of the game mode, the clan stuff is not in yet.

Note that this is a Preview of The Index. Greater rewards, Clan Trophies and Leaderboards will come later when the full variant of The Index goes live. We welcome your constructive feedback so we can prepare a proper Operation on a polished version- enjoy!

^ from the update notes, here, on this very forum.  Take a look.

[Azrael]

Okay, number one issue is please stop the spectres from stealing player points. Also, the Mag spectre CC's players when using Polarize, and that needs to change.

The endurance mission scales insanely fast. After just a few minutes we were facing level 200 enemies. They quickly get so tanky that it takes a minute or two to kill a single one, and I was using a 100% status Tigris Prime. But I am okay with this! It's fun being able to fight such dangerous enemies. Although I feel like the scaling should be a *little* slower.

The endurance mission isn't actually endless. Once everybody has their goal there is no longer any reason to stay. Additional points accomplish nothing. If you're going to have clan trophies for going certain distances, you need to provide rewards for going farther than necessary.

Missions one and two need to be tweaked so that players are no longer competing as much for points. Right now it is impossible for more than 2 players to get their personal goal in a public match, and that is simply insane.

Overall, though, I find it fun. I just want some rewards for going farther. And tweaks to missions one and two so that public play is viable.