Changing Riven Disposition a huge middle finger to players

[Shockwave-]

So you get a riven for a gun you didn't like and never liked but you decide to try it, like the AKlex. Wasn't ever a great side arm and the Lex was just plain better but you got the riven. So you do what DE said you were SUPPOSED TO DO. You farm Kuva, you reroll it 10 times, you finally get a good mod for the AKLex that you can slot. Say it has 100% toxin damage and reload speed and something else (whatever). But you figure you can slot it instead of your normal 90% toxin damage mod and it will be viable for the 18 power it takes.

Now out comes the AKlex prime. Sure it's more powerful than the Aklex, so it doesn't NEED a riven, but your riven just went from 100% toxin to like 50% toxin, and the other attributes now make it not viable to replace your 90% toxin mod. Sure the AKlex prime is so good you don't need a riven to make it better than your AKlex was with the riven, but you just lost all that RNG to get the riven, ALL that kuva farming to reroll it, the FORMA or TWO to slot the 18 power riven, etc.  What DE told you to do - go back and use an older less used weapon just blew up in your face!

All that work evaporates overnight because DE released a new prime gun. How is this anything but screwing players over? I have no idea if the AKlex riven change will do this, but something like Galatine Prime which the Prime was very very strong just might. At some point this scenario WILL happen to players. The fact that your hard earned mod that you had to farm to reroll can change overnight because DE releases a new weapon is INSANE. It just spits in the face of players.

This is one more example of just how terrible the entire concept of riven mods are. If you want to keep rivens, fine. Get rid of dispositions, and then go back and actually balance older weapons (or nerf the stronger ones so they are balanced with a riven). DE, you can not have your cake and eat it too. You can not have rivens and then claim you are not balancing content around rivens. They HAVE to be balanced around, or the game can't be balanced at all...

[TheChaotic1]

Decent weapons, and even some feint weapons still get good stats and rolls, Riven is meant to reward people who don't use the meta

I think all variants should get their own disposition, that way you can't lose your boss mod just because of a new prime.

Plus I'd get to use a riven for muralist cernos

[Cyborg-Rox]

Riven Disposition should really be specific to each variant of a weapon.

[rapt0rman]

1 minute ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Plus I'd get to use a riven for muralist cernos

Mutalist cernos already has it's own riven that's unaffected by other cernos variants.

[AXCrusnik]

2 minutes ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

Riven Disposition should really be specific to each variant of a weapon.

Agreed. Instead have variant weapon's disposition reduce or increase the mods stats rather than the stats be dependent on the weapon family's disposition period.

Edited January 27, 2017 by AXCrusnik

[TheChaotic1]

3 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Mutalist cernos already has it's own riven that's unaffected by other cernos variants.

Wait it's not counted as a variant?

:^D brb doing sorties

[DeMonkey]

I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

DE care about player investment, they said so themselves when they 180'd on mutagen sample changes.

/s

[Skaleek]

17 minutes ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

Riven Disposition should really be specific to each variant of a weapon.

Don't understand why they don't just do this. Would make life so much easier.

Also, unrelated, AkLex P disposition should be 0.5, same as Lex P, otherwise they are making the weapon an upgrade of the other via riven disposition which they said they would not do.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Skaleek

[TrinityPrime]

13 minutes ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

Riven Disposition should really be specific to each variant of a weapon.

Saw a topic proposing that a few weeks back, did not appear to be a popular idea.

[Tsukinoki]

57 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

This is one more example of just how terrible the entire concept of riven mods are. If you want to keep rivens, fine. Get rid of dispositions, and then go back and actually balance older weapons (or nerf the stronger ones so they are balanced with a riven). DE, you can not have your cake and eat it too. You can not have rivens and then claim you are not balancing content around rivens. They HAVE to be balanced around, or the game can't be balanced at all.

Problem with this:
You (and a lot of other people) keep on saying and claiming and assuming that Riven disposition is based off of weapon strength.
When DE has said and done nothing to that effect!

They have stated the goal for Riven Disposition was that underused weapons would get a better disposition and be used more while overused weapons would get a weaker disposition to discourage using them.  Not that "weak" weapons would get a better disposition while "strong" weapons would get a weaker disposition.

Lets just look at a few of the "Strong" disposition weapons shall we?
Ogris, Opticor, Penta, Phage, and Angstrum.
All of these weapons are pretty strong, right?
Especially the Ogris, Opticor and Penta.
Yet they have a "Strong" disposition, why?  Because they are rarely used even though they are really powerful.

Lets look at some "Neutral" disposition weapons?
Latron, Braton, Grakata, and Javlok.
None of these are really that strong, yet they have neutral dispositions, and none of them would be broken by having a strong disposition.
And why do they have a Neutral disposition?  Because plenty of people use them even if they aren't the strongest (especially the braton/latron which are basically starter guns).

Lets look at some "Faint" disposition weapons?
Akbolto, Atomos, Ignis, and Paris.
Theese aren't the strongest weapons, but they all have faint dispositions.
Why?  Because they are popular and used by everyone.

(And yes, I just grabbed some of the most blatant examples but there are more among the 'strong' disposition list...)

Sure most of the Faint Disposition weapons are strong weapons, but thats only because the community loves overusing strong gear.
Because does anyone really consider the Akbolto or its Telos to be so strong that a neutral or strong disposition on them would really be game breaking in any way, shape or form?
Or the ignis?
But they are popular, especially among newer players, and therefore get a faint disposition due to that.

But again, DE has stated the goal was to reward using the underused weapons by giving them stronger rivens verses the overused weapons.  And that is what they are doing here.
Sure its a tiny bit pre-emptive with them moving the aklex to neutral as a guess for how many people use it but its still within their stated goals for the disposition system.

I would even go so far as to imagine that DE would actually prefer if all the weapons started drifting towards neutral disposition over time as the weapon usage shifts.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[Shockwave-]

8 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

But again, DE has stated the goal was to reward using the underused weapons by giving them stronger rivens verses the overused weapons.  And that is what they are doing here.
Sure its a tiny bit pre-emptive with them moving the aklex to neutral as a guess for how many people use it but its still within their stated goals for the disposition system.

I would even go so far as to imagine that DE would actually prefer if all the weapons started drifting towards neutral disposition over time as the weapon usage shifts.

Ok,. but the AKlex is an underused weapon. Now add in that the AKlex prime is in BARO... if you were away for this weekend you CAN NOT GET THE AKLEX PRIME (without buying it from another player). Which means that DE is saying that you did what they wanted, they rewarded you for using an lesser used weapons  with a nice  riven mod and you worked hard to reroll it a number of times,  but they  have now taken away that reward and hard work you put in, because some OTHER people are using the AKlex prime, which you don't have, and can't get.... If the nerf to dispotion makes your particular riven mod go from worth a slot to not worth a slot (it may not have been uber rolled) and you don't get the AKlex Prime, how is this at all fair given DE's promise to reward you if you used an underused weapon?

[TheChaotic1]

Was Aklex your fav secondary? Or did you just have a really cheesy riven?

[RistN]

Can someone quote me on this and explain to me why they even changed disposition on that Riven?I thought that lvl of disposition is based on usage of its weapon and this is a new weapon.I doubt that many will even use Aklex Prime much,me for certain.

[-Fe-McHamm3rShot]

4 minutes ago, RistN said:

Can someone quote me on this and explain to me why they even changed disposition on that Riven?I thought that lvl of disposition is based on usage of its weapon and this is a new weapon.I doubt that many will even use Aklex Prime much,me for certain.

 

I think if you look at the 'raw stats' the primed version probably seemed to them as a 'huge' upgrade to the basic Aklex.

25%  base status 25% base crit is really nice, although not sure it deserved a change in disposition to neutral.

DE has a relatively new system on their hands here w/ Rivens, and I bet in the name of game balance, they played it easy.

Albeit maybe a bit too easy on this one, if you see numbers of users dwindle, and if enough peeps get whiny internet pants.

Then they will cave to keep the player base happy, and re-adjust it back to strong.

I say we start asking for an "extra strong" Riven disposition; I'm personally getting kinda of bored.

I'm ready for the next level :)

[AcceptYourDeath]

55 minutes ago, RistN said:

Can someone quote me on this and explain to me why they even changed disposition on that Riven?I thought that lvl of disposition is based on usage of its weapon and this is a new weapon.I doubt that many will even use Aklex Prime much,me for certain.

I think it is a mix of both, popularity of a weapon and/or strength of a weapon and they judge it for each weapon in its own. Telos Akbolto has "Faint" I could be wrong but I don`t think they are in use very often, nor they are crazy strong. So I guess DE thinks Telos Akbolto are strong weapons (where they are wrong ^^) and shouldn`t have a strong riven mod therefore. But I can`t see everybody run around with them constantly, so overused can`t be the reason for "faint". Must be DE`s power ranking for Telos AkboIto I guess?

Sybaris is "Faint"! Oversued? Surely not, but Dex Sybaris exists which is a powerful weapon and causing the same problem with this AkLex example. Because a good version exists the weaker version gets screwed over. Afaik Cernos has "Faint" since Cernos Prime is around now. 

They really have to differentiate individual versions of a weapon!  AKLex = strong, AKLex Prime = neutral/faint. 

[-Fe-McHamm3rShot]

4 minutes ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

I think it is a mix of both, popularity of a weapon and/or strength of a weapon and they judge it for each weapon in its own. Telos Akbolto has "Faint" I could be wrong but I don`t think they are in use very often, nor they are crazy strong. So I guess DE thinks Telos Akbolto are strong weapons (where they are wrong ^^) and shouldn`t have a strong riven mod therefore. But I can`t see everybody run around with them constantly, so overused can`t be the reason for "faint". Must be DE`s power ranking for Telos AkboIto I guess?

Sybaris is "Faint"! Oversued? Surely not, but Dex Sybaris exists which is a powerful weapon and causing the same problem with this AkLex example. Because a good version exists the weaker version gets screwed over. Afaik Cernos has "Faint" since Cernos Prime is around now. 

They really have to differentiate individual versions of a weapon!  AKLex = strong, AKLex Prime = neutral/faint. 

 

^ This brings up a great point. 2 things actually.

1stly, although I agree for the most part; we will probably NEVER get a separate or individual Riven strength within a weapon group.  That is more work than I expect they will pursue, unfortunately.  

2ndly, the term 'underused weapons' in regards to weapons given a 'strong' disposition. Or at the same time the weapons they see used the 'most'.  I'd kinda like DE to be a bit more transparent, and maybe share with us a metric on these stats.

Maybe the top 20% of the most used weapons get the 'faint' disposition

The next level, 30% lets say most used/ less used group would get the 'neutral' disposition

The next 30% less used group gets the 'strong' disposition

And reward players using the 20% non-meta lowest used weapons a 'very strong' disposition

*They already stated that the Riven disposition was going to be fluid and based on certain factors in the game.  I say they go full tilt, and change them as we the player base are using these weapons.

 

 

[Zebiko]

The worst part of this is that DE knows which weapons that need the buff or nerf. They choose the dispositions to their liking (or disliking), exactly how they changed it for the aklex. Instead of choosing dispositions, they should balance the weapons. There is no need for dispositions this way.

(Or they could remove all rivens from the game. That would be great.)

[bubbabenali]

17 hours ago, TrinityPrime said:

Saw a topic proposing that a few weeks back, did not appear to be a popular idea.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Of course not, who want's to farm a specific riven for each weapon variant?

For example Gorgon, Grakata, Burst Laser Rivens are instantly worthless. No one care about that S#&$ tier weapons - their prisma variants tho get nice buffs. I don't think even internal submultiplicators would change much - the mods would be still stronger than the original or hampered so much that the rivens would be useless.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

17 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Problem with this:
You (and a lot of other people) keep on saying and claiming and assuming that Riven disposition is based off of weapon strength.
When DE has said and done nothing to that effect!

They have stated the goal for Riven Disposition was that underused weapons would get a better disposition and be used more while overused weapons would get a weaker disposition to discourage using them.  Not that "weak" weapons would get a better disposition while "strong" weapons would get a weaker disposition.

Lets just look at a few of the "Strong" disposition weapons shall we?
Ogris, Opticor, Penta, Phage, and Angstrum.
All of these weapons are pretty strong, right?
Especially the Ogris, Opticor and Penta.
Yet they have a "Strong" disposition, why?  Because they are rarely used even though they are really powerful.

Lets look at some "Neutral" disposition weapons?
Latron, Braton, Grakata, and Javlok.
None of these are really that strong, yet they have neutral dispositions, and none of them would be broken by having a strong disposition.
And why do they have a Neutral disposition?  Because plenty of people use them even if they aren't the strongest (especially the braton/latron which are basically starter guns).

Lets look at some "Faint" disposition weapons?
Akbolto, Atomos, Ignis, and Paris.
Theese aren't the strongest weapons, but they all have faint dispositions.
Why?  Because they are popular and used by everyone.

(And yes, I just grabbed some of the most blatant examples but there are more among the 'strong' disposition list...)

Sure most of the Faint Disposition weapons are strong weapons, but thats only because the community loves overusing strong gear.
Because does anyone really consider the Akbolto or its Telos to be so strong that a neutral or strong disposition on them would really be game breaking in any way, shape or form?
Or the ignis?
But they are popular, especially among newer players, and therefore get a faint disposition due to that.

But again, DE has stated the goal was to reward using the underused weapons by giving them stronger rivens verses the overused weapons.  And that is what they are doing here.
Sure its a tiny bit pre-emptive with them moving the aklex to neutral as a guess for how many people use it but its still within their stated goals for the disposition system.

I would even go so far as to imagine that DE would actually prefer if all the weapons started drifting towards neutral disposition over time as the weapon usage shifts.

If we are going to have games go for a neutral position this might as well be a BF4 alternate release then. I am sorry I disagree with you here. However, identifying weapons that are stronger or weaker really have a roll to play in this game that you don't really see in other games.

 

Once you start to go towards mediocrity on weapons in general then there is no real point in having any particular weapon. Like in all honest prime weapons should be the better variants of the normal counterpart. If we start going down this route this will spell the doom of weapons as I have seen the last several releases and bad state weapons are in.

 

They release new weapons that are mediocre and not even usable as good weapons then say oh here's a prime variant of that weapon. Would you suggest that weapon have the same effectiveness? Weapons should get stronger, this is what this games about. Getting stronger, I mean it is easy to put enemys and obstacles in front of the player but giving players options to defeat challenges seems to make some players feel as if that is a power creep. Power creep occurs when you have few weapons that are strong and most are not comparable.

This problem would be resolved if weapons had some viability. This problem exists now in warframe. How many weapons are useless beyond content lvl 26? Honestly, the way to eliminate this problem is really would be giving weapons a growth stat. I have noticed this problem within Warframe as well.

 

Why are weapons not growing in strength when leveled? Basic problem there this creates the problems with the whole mod base as a whole. You can't specialize in a weapon you really enjoy. In order to assist with this problem players are experiencing there needs to be a way to make weapons stronger based on time with the weapon. Give weapons the infinite ability to scale based on usage and leveling almost like the Focus System. This would eliminate alot of issues in Warframe and your thought is well appreciated, but I don't believe would resolve or assist the problem.

[Voltage]

19 hours ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Decent weapons, and even some feint weapons still get good stats and rolls, Riven is meant to reward people who don't use the meta

I think all variants should get their own disposition, that way you can't lose your boss mod just because of a new prime.

Plus I'd get to use a riven for muralist cernos

Ask Dread, Sybaris, Soma, Akstiletto, Tonkor, and Simulor rivens... These mods just REINFORCE meta and create a cash grab so people buy them.

When that pump action shotgun comes out, I want a riven for it, but I know it will only become "faint" in time, so why bother?

[-Fe-McHamm3rShot]

2 hours ago, BloodArmoredApostle said:

Why are weapons not growing in strength when leveled? Basic problem there this creates the problems with the whole mod base as a whole. You can't specialize in a weapon you really enjoy. In order to assist with this problem players are experiencing there needs to be a way to make weapons stronger based on time with the weapon. Give weapons the infinite ability to scale based on usage and leveling almost like the Focus System. This would eliminate alot of issues in Warframe and your thought is well appreciated, but I don't believe would resolve or assist the problem.

 

Oh shnit, weapon specialization through focus exp maybe?

That would sure make the other 2 schools game viable.   Maybe certain schools specialize in certain weapons, you spend earned focus on "weapon specialization".

Now instead of worrying about power creep given to the masses, it has to be earned, and for the weapon of your choice.

And when you get bored, guess what? you have to focus farm for your new specialized weapon.  I dunno, I need coffee..

[BloodArmoredApostle]

4 hours ago, -Fe-McHamm3rShot said:

Oh shnit, weapon specialization through focus exp maybe?

That would sure make the other 2 schools game viable.   Maybe certain schools specialize in certain weapons, you spend earned focus on "weapon specialization".

Now instead of worrying about power creep given to the masses, it has to be earned, and for the weapon of your choice.

And when you get bored, guess what? you have to focus farm for your new specialized weapon.  I dunno, I need coffee..

I motion to agree on this method.  

The very basic of leveling anything is for it to get stronger. The problem of the mod system has really been in this one fact (Weapons have no growth stat the as they level or the more you use them). This one basic truth really. I don't know how this was overlooked or not taken into account in beta, but if you have no progress in strength during levels or usage then whats the point of said weapon? I have yet to understand this mechanic in Warframe to that wouldn't allow a weapon to gain strength based on player usage and input. There should be things that let me customize my weapons overall strength and viability in combat. 

This would open up the windows for anyone to enjoy whatever weapon but in order to get it to the level required power wise. They would need to use the weapon more. Simple and eliminates power creep to the masses. 

 

[deothor]

On 27.01.2017 at 7:28 PM, Shockwave- said:

Snip

Guess who has been added to Devs "players ignored" list :D

I think I haven't seen any Dev visiting feedback forums even once, they work hard on patching, updating and making fun red-text stories.

But If they do their work while ignoring players? I guess they must have worked in goverment before, or EA.

 

Seriously, what's the point of having like 40 different feedback subforums (other than diluting playerbase) if none are ever checked?

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, deothor said:

I think I haven't seen any Dev visiting feedback forums even once

Devs have commented in the feedback forums before and continue to do so on simple matters. More complicated ones need more developer attention. Them not responding is not them ignoring you. That's like assuming that all of the accounts that read the forums but don't post aren't actually reading something. It's called lurking.

[Shockwave-]

20 hours ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Was Aklex your fav secondary? Or did you just have a really cheesy riven?

I used the Aklex exactly long enough to level it to 30 a year ago or more and deleted it. I doubt i even have any kills with the weapon. I'm sorry you can only see the world through self-centeredness. I am arguing the principle, not out of any self interest in the AKlex. Regardless, of what use is such a comment. The principle is either valid or not, it woudln't matter if I loved the Aklex or never used it, that has no bearing on whether a point is a good point or a bad one. As I said this will happen to someone at some point, if not the Aklex then the next prime or the next one, it's a can of worms that's impossible to balance given DE is 100% dead set against doing anything that might undermine what a player has already put effort into (Hema, ^cough ^cough) even to balance the game for the other 95% of players