Warframe has just established a two class clan community

[Xzorn]

12 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Hema does hardly create a two-clas system, since you can always buy it with plat. It's pay to save time, which is one of the two corner-stones of Warframes financing.

 

There's a degree of difference between typical practice and Hema though.

Typical Free2Play Is when you live 5 miles away from work and decide whether to ride a bike or pay a Taxi.

Hema is more like a dark alley mugging. You could fight the armed robber and save your wallet or you could give them what they want and not risk dying.

It's your own line of tolerance in the end. Some might try to save money in both cases but majority are not going to fight an armed robber for their wallet.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, k05h said:

This is just wrong. Even when all clans did cooperate to their best 90% of the clans would not receive the research.

But what drags clans down in a competitive event like this is new players. If a clan actually takes in a large number of new players to help them in the game this clan will have no chance in the current event. If your clan does something for the community it will be punished by an event like this. 

Well, if your clan wants that sweet research, you better get to work on scoring as much as possible. After all, the permanent research is for the clans that work harder or smarter on each tier. If your clan doesn't consist of people who actually cooperate to achieve a common goal and are there just for the hema or whatever, then you in for some bad news.

It's a competitive event, you can sit there and complain about it, or you can start chatting and mobilizing your clan to get that research.

[Flirk2]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

After all, the permanent research is for the clans that work harder or smarter on each tier.

There is nothing smart in finding an exploit and sitting in the mission for 5 hours straight.

It's hard? Maybe. Smart? No. By half an hour of that mission there is no brain involved.

Nothing smart about setting up a ''Not logged in for 2 days? Begone!'' clan either.

Sorry, but draconian policies are not smart, nor are they that hard to implement.

If this is what we should expect, the in-game message:

''You have been playing for over an hour. Don't forget to take a break.''

should be changed to:

''You have not played for 8 hours yet. Forget breaks!''

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

It's a competitive event, you can sit there and complain about it, or you can start chatting and mobilizing your clan to get that research.

Yes, sure. And deny it to someone else, less mobilized.

Because setting up a system that will bar 90% of players from a reward it so much fun!

 

p.s. And the ''victory tier'' is another thing.

Does it not bother you that now less than 5% of people participating in the event will get the event weapon with a slot and a catalyst, like every other event weapon was given out?

I guess it doesn't. ''It's just another weapon'' after all. Like Hema is ''just another weapon''.

I wonder, will there be a point where people who defend this course will say: ''this is not right''? Or will it always be ''just another weapon''?

Edited March 8, 2017 by Flirk2

[Buff00n]

As we've been discussing in another thread, what happens when the next event has tangible, real-game benefits that go only to the top 10% clans?  Then the next, then the next, and so on.  More clans are going to fall behind until there are only a few left that "have everything".  The end game for this is a few try hard clans at the top, impossible to compete with, difficult to join, and generally not that fun to be a part of.  Everyone else is stuck in "lesser" clans just to get some benefits but are locked out of others.

 

15 hours ago, Excalibur said:

...wow.  That's even worse than I imagined.  Not only do the "winner" clans get access to real-game weapon that nobody else can get, but all their members get a free source of plat because of it.  And the rich get richer.

The Hema was clearly a mistake, but it's still technically obtainable by any clan given enough time.  Being tied to a time-limited event makes the Ignis Wraith case a whole new level of clan stratification.  The only way out is to provide some way for clans to obtain the Ignis Wraith BP after the fact, maybe as a reward in the "kingpin" system.  

Having some "early" access to real-game content is fine, but it needs to be *temporary*.  If there's no way for other clans to catch up then you've essentially turned PvE into PvP, and that's no good for anybody.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Don't forget about Aklex relic sold by baro for two days and not even Rebecca knows when it will return....

So we basically have 3 exclusive weapons for only the hardcore and only the players in the know? That's 9000 MR rank..hmm what's next? Is DE trying to run off the casual gamer and only reward the hardcore?! 

Edited March 9, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

There is nothing smart in finding an exploit and sitting in the mission for 5 hours straight.

It's hard? Maybe. Smart? No. By half an hour of that mission there is no brain involved.

Finding that requires either acute attention to detail, lateral thinking, deep knowledge of game mechanics or all 3, so it's smart work.

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

Yes, sure. And deny it to someone else, less mobilized.

Because setting up a system that will bar 90% of players from a reward it so much fun!

It's a competitive event.

Deal. With. It.

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

 

p.s. And the ''victory tier'' is another thing.

Does it not bother you that now less than 5% of people participating in the event will get the event weapon with a slot and a catalyst, like every other event weapon was given out?

I guess it doesn't. ''It's just another weapon'' after all. Like Hema is ''just another weapon''.

I wonder, will there be a point where people who defend this course will say: ''this is not right''? Or will it always be ''just another weapon''?

Well, I'm a fairly realistic person, so for me anything is "just another weapon" which I may or may not bother to get. I would like to have Venka Prime, but haven't gotten to farm it because it's another weapon, and that's for a weapon I like, let alone one I don't care about.

As for the Ignis Wraith, I made my contribution to my clan for the participation reward, and that's all. I don't need the research nor the weap with slot&potato.

[k05h]

12 hours ago, Buff00n said:

...wow.  That's even worse than I imagined.  Not only do the "winner" clans get access to real-game weapon that nobody else can get, but all their members get a free source of plat because of it.  And the rich get richer.

You just read my mind. When I saw this on reddit I was baffled. 

I can see the good intentions on DE's side for such a move. But they clearly do not understand the economics they have created in Warframe. This will be no issue now and for next 6-8 weeks. But for new players getting into Warframe they only way to get the Ignis Wraith is to "acquire" the blueprint from a lucky minority. 

12 hours ago, Buff00n said:

If there's no way for other clans to catch up then you've essentially turned PvE into PvP, and that's no good for anybody.

Lately the word competition has been coming up frequently in dev streams. You might be on the right track that DE wants to make Warframe more competitve because there are vocal people in the community that prefer PvP. 

I do like the occasional PvP game but only in small doses. I have a job that gives me real life PvP. I play Warframe to get away from my normal life for a short time. If Warframe turns into yet another toxic F2P PvP I will just move on. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by k05h

[Nyaa314]

23 hours ago, WolfTitan said:

active clans players to profit off of less active players

Literally warframe trade ideology.

Disclaimer: it doesn't mean I like it or ignis w requirements.

[JalakBali]

11 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Come now, the requirements are per number of players. Right now, if 10% of the players complete the event, then it's done. The opportunity was equal for everyone, each had one week. 

No, it's not that requirement that's the problem. After this event, you will have a number of clans where their members, old and new, can get the weapon from them. Other clans, new or old, has no way to achieve this. Before this, new players can pick between clans that already researched everything or clans that don't yet but can work towards that goal. After this event, new players will pick between clans that have an extra weapon and clans that will never have this weapons, no matter how much they work for it.

[Walkampf]

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Hema is more like a dark alley mugging. You could fight the armed robber and save your wallet or you could give them what they want and not risk dying.

It's your own line of tolerance in the end. Some might try to save money in both cases but majority are not going to fight an armed robber for their wallet.

Way to overreact...

Also, way to lie about facts.

Hema is JUST LIKE any other item before. The only difference is, that the needed effort is bigger.

To stick to your Taxi metaphor, it's basically like when the distance to your work place becomes larger, but the Taxis price stays the same.

Nobody is mugging you. At WORST it's like a guy following you and trying to sell you a watch or something.

[-N7-Leonhart]

23 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

No, it's not that requirement that's the problem. After this event, you will have a number of clans where their members, old and new, can get the weapon from them. Other clans, new or old, has no way to achieve this. Before this, new players can pick between clans that already researched everything or clans that don't yet but can work towards that goal. After this event, new players will pick between clans that have an extra weapon and clans that will never have this weapons, no matter how much they work for it.

However, if their clan has played at least a tiny bit, ALL the players will get at least the weapon's BP at the end. So the participating players in the event will get the weapon, isn't that how the events work? Sure there may be those that will get building rights for it, but the ones that did the event won't have to care about that.

[Reifnir]

16 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

However, if their clan has played at least a tiny bit, ALL the players will get at least the weapon's BP at the end.

Nope, they won't.

Participation tier clan reward is Ignis BP only for participants (duh). If they missed the event for whatever reasons, they will not be getting Ignis Wraith BP just like that unless their clan made it into the top 10%. 

[(PSN)auwsomestgamer]

Seriously though why would players join clans with Ignis wraith research if they can win it from the event themselves. Ignis wraith research means nothing but bragging rights. It would only be new players (really, really new) wanting this research and they are not much of an asset to a clan anyway. 

[--Nef-Anyo--]

At the end of the day something needed to change with regards to clans other than a trade post and the research. DE will never please everyone, it's impossible that's a fact. But whether this is right direction in the longer run we'll just have to see. If clans make plat out of selling the bp then so be it, but considering there will be clans out there that will offer it for free the prices of the bp will tank anyway so i wouldn't even be concerned by it. From personal experience I've had tenno come in to my clan just to steal the research then go back to where ever they came from. For me these types of players are the worst leechers in the game. I've seen many posts about people being afk in a mission but never about the leechers that literally steal the clan's research because they cant be bothered to farm or play the game. If you don't want to farm, then pay. You can't have it both ways. I wonder If there was a system that punishes players that did this how it would effect clans in general and the inactivity? 

[JalakBali]

3 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

However, if their clan has played at least a tiny bit, ALL the players will get at least the weapon's BP at the end. So the participating players in the event will get the weapon, isn't that how the events work? Sure there may be those that will get building rights for it, but the ones that did the event won't have to care about that.

You're still missing it. This goes beyond the event if some clans can produce weapons that other clans cannot. This put the value of those clans into a spot that the other clans and any new clans can't ever reach. If your clan doesn't have the Hema research done, that's only because you haven't put enough work into it. After this event is done and your clan doesn't get the Ignis Wraith research, that makes your clan unable to ever reach the level of the clans that did.

[k05h]

3 hours ago, (PS4)auwsomestgamer said:

Seriously though why would players join clans with Ignis wraith research if they can win it from the event themselves.

because

3 hours ago, (PS4)auwsomestgamer said:

It would only be new players (really, really new) wanting this research and they are not much of an asset to a clan anyway. 

"they are not much of an asset to a clan anyway"  ... this really hurts me and this sentence pretty much sums up my fears. 

Warframe always was (and still is) a game where vets care(d) for new players. I do care about new players and try to help them whenever I can (donate mods, gift boosters or run Archwing/LimboTheorem/JordasGolem). This event degrades new players to an inconvenient burden for clans. 

[Tsukinoki]

3 hours ago, (PS4)auwsomestgamer said:

Seriously though why would players join clans with Ignis wraith research if they can win it from the event themselves. Ignis wraith research means nothing but bragging rights. It would only be new players (really, really new) wanting this research and they are not much of an asset to a clan anyway. 

It's not just a temporary grab, and also there are a surprising amount of older players not in clans that formed a temporary 1-man clan to get the basic participation goal.  Having the research will also attract those players who aren't new which is an asset for clans.
Think of how things will be in 6+ months when the only way to get the Ignis Wraith BP is to either buy it or join a clan that has it.  With those options why would anyone join a clan that doesn't have the Ignis Wraith Research when they can join a clan that has it?

This gives the 10% of clans that have the research an essentially permanent attraction that other clans can't overcome.
Because lets be honest: If one clan has the Ignis Wraith BP and another clan will not be able to get it in the foreseeable future which one would you want to join?

Also you're ignoring the amount of clans that are in danger of falling apart if their members decide to leave to join a clan with the research.

4 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

However, if their clan has played at least a tiny bit, ALL the players will get at least the weapon's BP at the end. So the participating players in the event will get the weapon, isn't that how the events work? Sure there may be those that will get building rights for it, but the ones that did the event won't have to care about that.

The thing you're missing is that this creates a situation where the majority of clans simply can't catch up.
Because imagine the clans want to grow and get more people for the next clan event.  Now tell me which clans are people going to be trying to join: the clans that have the Ignis Wraith research?  Or the clans that don't?
Now say that event hits.  The clans that were in the top 10% of this event have an advantage because there were able to attract more and better people than the other 90% of the clans.  Who has a clear and distinct advantage to win that and get into the top 10% again?
Now say this goes on a while.  Soon you'll have the top 10% of clans that pretty much no one else is able to even attempt to keep up with or compete against because they have the advantage of winning over and over again.

This reward scheme is bad because it creates a massive can't catch up scenario and an unstable equilibrium.  The clans that "win" this event are now more likely to "win" the next event and so on.  This is not a good thing to have going.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

So I would like to propose question...Let's be honest, clans with hena, Ignis Wraith, and a aklex bps/links can and will have a clear path way to exploit plat from small newer players/clans. 

Is DE promoting plat sales unknowingly and indirectly, by using clan competition as an excuse? 

[Vox_Preliator]

5 hours ago, Reifnir said:

Nope, they won't.

Participation tier clan reward is Ignis BP only for participants (duh). If they missed the event for whatever reasons, they will not be getting Ignis Wraith BP just like that unless their clan made it into the top 10%. 

Then they missed the event.

Which is... different from every other event how?

If anything, this means there is a theoretically infinite supply of Ignis Wraiths and a new or inactive-during-this-time player can trade for one at any time, unlike before where after a Sortie season was over there were no new parts entering the market, and there's still literally no evidence that the Ignis Wraith definitely won't be put in the Invasion pool at some point down the line.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Vox_Preliator

[Flirk2]

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Finding that requires either acute attention to detail, lateral thinking, deep knowledge of game mechanics or all 3, so it's smart work.

Not really.

I don't find sitting in a mission for hours on end smart.

''Inventing'' the strategy that will let you ignore enemies takes half an hour at most.

Then it's up to reflex. 4 people got together and went to rescue 3000 Kavor.

Was it hard? I'm sure it was. Sitting in a chair for about 4 or 5 hours and pushing buttons, taking technical breaks in shifts is hard, no way around that.

Keeping the connection stable was hard, I'm sure.

But sorry, I'll still insist that there was no brain involved after 30 minutes.

And sorry, but I am most put out that this is what we are expected to do from now on.

Let's look at ''Victory Tier'' again. 40300 score for a Storm clan means that in a 100% populated clan every single player has to reach 403 score, 100.75 Kavor rescued in a single mission. Not that much, right?

But let's look at 50% full clan?

Every single one needs to save 201.5 Kavor in a single mission. That's about an hour long mission.

Let's say, half the clan didn't show up for the event? It's life after all.

403 saved for each of 25 people.

Quite frankly, it's an insane goal to set. It just won't happen. Not everyone has stable enough connection to play 1 mission for 2 hours. Not everyone can stay for 2 hours in a single mission. And not everyone is MR23 with most if not every frame, weapon and mod in their arsenal, backed up with more than 1k hours of play time.

Not everyone will want to stay 2 hours in a brain killing slog of an endless escort mission. I'm sure there will be quite a few people who will like that. But they are not the majority.

And without 2 trinity 2 CC frames tactic, or without a Limbo tactic... Saving 403 Kavor is impossible. By the 200 saved enemies reach level 100+, and the toxic clouds they produce will kill those Kavor in a second. No amount of ''lateral thinking'' will save you from a level 100 Toxic Ancient's breath of death.

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

It's a competitive event.

Deal. With. It.

That's the problem. And

No I won't.

Because the main thing that was attractive in this game for me was lack of competition.

Everything else was a nice bonus.

But now it seems like competition is what I'll get more and more.

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

As for the Ignis Wraith, I made my contribution to my clan for the participation reward, and that's all. I don't need the research nor the weap with slot&potato.

A nice position to have, sure. Now, tell me, please, why do you defend the obviously less valuable rewards for an obviously more grindy event?

I mean, event weapons (apart from Quanta Vandal and, maybe, Strun Wraith) are not worth putting a catalyst in them.

Now, when the weapon will come as a blueprint, how many people will keep it in their arsenal, I wonder?

I'm sure I won't. I have an Ignis already. Why would I spend a catalyst, 5-6 forma and a weapon slot on something that I won't ever use after leveling it up?

At least when event weapon has a catalyst in it, and comes with a slot, I'm tempted to see how far I can take it. Without those things? Why would I bother?

And with a BP available at any time... I wouldn't even bother to keep it, like I do with the rest of them.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Flirk2

[Troll_Logic]

On 3/8/2017 at 2:25 AM, WhiteMarker said:

If the Hema seperates things so does every other research.
And so does everything in the game. Either you have the credits/ressources/time to do something or you don't.
And with that the Hema doesn't seperate anything...

Not really.  Hema is pretty bad due to the onerous research requirements.  I've played for three years, had a solo clan for a little over one,  and I've had zero problem researching everything in the dojo, including colors, except for the hema.  People can argue over the merits of the hema, but no one can reasonably argue that researching the hema is the same as everything else.

 

On 3/8/2017 at 2:27 AM, Volinus7 said:

My little tenno, Capitalism is magic

Capitalism has nothing to do with the ignis wraith.  It does have everything to do with Hema.

[Reifnir]

35 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Which is... different from every other event how?

By being added as a Research for top farmers and no-lifers only. 

I spend time in Warframe precisely because it used to be game where, sooner or later, I could get everywhere given time. And the fact that it's becoming another one of "must sit through 4-5 hour sessions in one go" games WITHOUT actually having any meaningful content for hardcore players is a rather bad sign for me. And no, mindless grind is NOT content. 

[WhiteMarker]

14 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

People can argue over the merits of the hema, but no one can reasonably argue that researching the hema is the same as everything else.

I never said anything like that. But everyone can research the Hema. It takes quite some time, yeah. But everyone is able to.
And the Ignis is the same as every other Event-Weapon. Give it some time and it will come back. One way or another. Or people just don't want it anymore.
But the statement of the OP is just plain incorrect.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 hour ago, Reifnir said:

I spend time in Warframe precisely because it used to be game where, sooner or later, I could get everywhere given time. And the fact that it's becoming another one of "must sit through 4-5 hour sessions in one go" games WITHOUT actually having any meaningful content for hardcore players is a rather bad sign for me. And no, mindless grind is NOT content.

this so very, very much.

the game (for its kind) used to be relatively attractive to casuals. casual players are the majority of players. lots of player = lots of potential plat purchases. i really can't fathom the exact reasoning behind DE's strategies regarding clans as of late. my best guess is they wanna push dedication and emotional investment by rivalry to make players more loyal to the game (analogous to the loyality to their clans)... but is that really optimal from an economic perspective? i'm not sure...

after having collected experience in various hardcore mmos in the past at first i never wanted to risk getting addicted to something similar sucking away so much precious life time again, then real life friends introduced me to warframe and after inital hesitation i joined. i really dug the art style and sci fi athmosphere, the grind seemed very tame in comparison, starting out was fun and exciting and here i am now, mr23 having purched prime access (when my fav frame volt was primed) and all... ironically 90% of those friends don't play anymore and it's their clan i'm still in which i don't wanna leave mainly for sentimental reasons... but this isnt about that.

fact is it's the first time i kinda feel left out after an event ends. tbqh after 2000 ingame hours completionist urges somewhat outweigh genuine enjoyment of the game (not saying it's not there), that's probably only natural. and only now after all that time things start getting out of reach with my usual playing habits (1~2 hours a day) i'm not sure how long my attention will last anymore. i mean if have no chance but to stop caring about getting this stuff, then that next stuff might as well not seem quite as tempting anymore and finally you give up completely because, well, after all getting stuff is the main incentive in warframe.

just some thoughts... this isn't meant to be a "do it my way or i'll quit" post, just... some thoughts.

leave dedicated clans their e-peen leaderboards for all i care, but exclusive stuff like research or even just getting a weapon potatoed like we were used to? i just don't understand why we had to cross that line...

Edited March 9, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Chroia]

On 3/8/2017 at 10:05 AM, Hemmo67 said:

blaa blaa blaa wraiths aren't even that strong that everyone would use them 24/7

Given that - at this point - I use the Ignis pretty much all the time, and (with a crit build) the Ignis W is a net damage increase despite the ~8% lower base damage)... yeah, I kinda will.

Also, with the exception of the melee wraiths, iirc all of them are quite good.
Latron Wraith and Strun Wraith are very good and best in their respective niches, Karak Wraith is a better Karak (granted there are (much) better assault rifles), and - with the with the Vulkar Synd aug, the Vulkar W's very damn nice.
(Poor, poor, Gorgon W.)