[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[SoldierOS]

That's why we can't have good things

[jmthebigman]

14 minutes ago, brainjelly2g0 said:

The problem with just nerfing Cataclysm is that then suddenly, he still has the most powerful CC in the game, and can maintain invulnerability indefinitely, at no cost to his energy. A strong melee basically does the work of Cataclysm, in just a slightly slower time. Even were Cataclysm to heal enemies, the CC Stasis provides at no cost to yourself completely outweighs it. The second Cataclysm is nerfed, people will only realize how broken Stasis is, and Excavations, Defenses, Interceptions, and Survivals will be plagued by it. 

I looooove Limbo, but if someone doesn't suggest a better fix for him, DE will nerf him way too hard.

nullifiers say hi...

[felipe3402]

12 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Additional thoughts on Limbo after further play:

Problems:

1)Stasis is disruptive to team play and gunplay. 

In a solo situation and for a melee player it's great stuff. In public matches, it gets overloaded in the blink of an eye, and often has teammates screeching in frustration because suddenly their guns don't work. Ideally they should know they can just use melee, but most people are not listening/don't know.

Trying to use guns in stasis is cute when you are fooling around in the simulcrum but in the actual 'field' it quickly becomes frustrating because there is no way to know when an enemy will die. You either overshoot and waste ammo or don't shoot enough. 

Solution Proposal:

For the teamplay thing, there is no solution except communication and a willingness to learn game mechanics. Nothing the devs can do.

For gunplay, and in general:

For hitscan and melee, make an indicator when an enemy will receive enough damage to deplete their HP, for example: greying and dulling them out.em

2)RIft Surge is clunky and needs a reason to use:

So, Rift surge is super clunky. 

How it works:

You have to have at least 1 enemy in the rift to use it, you have to target it at enemies, killing them is supposed to transfer charge, banishing charged enemies should transfer charge to nearby enemies and also banish them.

It's supposed to help with banishing a lot of enemies, but in my opinion it's overcomplicated. Too many requirements, having to do this over and over sucks.

Solution Proposal:

1)Charged enemies should be able to be banished across the rift, and rift enemies around them too.

2)Banishing charged enemies should increase the range of your banish.

3)Rift surge should be able to be cast without having enemies in the rift

Just this change will make surge worthwhile to use and less finnicky. This will allow Limbo to spread banish and rift enemies rapidly with chain reactions.

With this, Banish can be turned back into single target to give him choice between singling out targets and going on crowd rampages, and also make him more smooth to use.

 

3)Cataclym unrifts Limbo

Makes no sense, and puts Limbo in unnecessary danger.

Solution Proposal:

Unrift other players but keep Limbo in.

 

Thoughts on Cataclysm:

I keep repeating myself on this but I urge people not to take simulcrum testings as actual examples of power. Cataclysm is not the god killing aoe nuke it is being made out to be. Simulcrum testings do not take into account different health types, and varying armor. Like any AoE ability Cataclysm can in most cases clear trash mobs. 

Outside of camped playstyles like in certain small and narrow defense maps where high concentrations of enemies are funneled to the players this ability does not perform as people would have you think.

 

Closing thoughts:

Give me a Limbo Deluxe skin pls.

This...

This is all my opinions in one thread.

Thanks mate, Hope the devs take a quick look at that.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

I like to think Limbo needs this since his 4th is technically is only dmg ability and enemies dont take increased dmg by default from rift surge anymore. But now im afraid Limbo 4th will be toned down because players act like once they discover a nuke ability. Thats all they use and will use it to the ground and then share it either on youtube or the forums. Limbo is about to go back to collecting dust again. 

This is just great

[Brynslustafir]

49 minutes ago, Xardis said:

Could do the same with Nova AMD. Lua is low level. Try to reproduce it on Sedna interception, then you can tell people that Limbo is OP.

I have used him on Sedna. A lot. He still nukes almost everything there.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

24 minutes ago, jmthebigman said:

nullifiers say hi...

Nullifiers always say hi, to everyone. 

[Nox_Terminus]

Cataclysm doesn't scale off of armor, it scales off of HP and shields. However if you and your squad all bring CP, he can one-shot groups of enemies regardless of level, especially when the cataclysm is maximum range. Testing on level 135 Corpus Techs and Ancient Healers killed in one shot every single time. This is equivalent to doing the damage of an Equinox nuke, except instead of taking minutes to build up that damage over time (and your team can contribute) you just press 4 twice, and watch the world burn.

I dont want to see him nerfed into oblivion, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that 10% HP+Shields dealt as damage is a bit nuts, especially when you consider that even with 40% power strength, you will still regularly nuke entire maps with 2 button presses. This also incentivizes the abject neglect of his 1 and 2, because why would you even need that? You're already one-shotting za warudo, because Dio said so.

Now Ill be perfectly clear here, I think powers which scale vs enemies are actually a step in the right direction as far as scaling is concerned. Lore-wise warframes are supposed to be these god-like humanoid weapons with the ability to channel void energy which is basically the force. The issue comes when you have to make this all happen within a reasonable spectrum as a game mechanic. So if one player in a group of 4 is killing everything by himself in a matter of milliseconds what is the point for the other people? Certainly some individuals dont mind being carried (especially when already half asleep) but there is a reasonable way and a silly one. Limbo's 4 is currently silly.

 

You'll say...

'Bladestorm can do it, and you're invincible for the whole cast', except Bladestorm was heavily nerfed via targeting mechanics, and most people now just focus on using Fatal Teleport, or just not using Ash at all. Additionally his 4 has a set number of attacks per target, which will only scale so far. Honestly if anyone should've had a reliable nuke it should be Ash, Limbo is supposed to be Bill Nye the Voidspace guy, but instead its Dio. Requires targeting of each and every target, and marks dont build up by themselves after marking them once, you have to continue staring at them, wasting your extremely short stealth duration. The Time-to-kill is so high that in most cases the rest of your squad will have killed most if not all of the enemies you were planning on slide-show simulating.

'World on Fire does the same thing', except World on Fire scales poorly and takes a long time to kill most things of a moderate level. Long Time-to-kill except for very early tilesets, at higher levels people use Firequake because the CC vastly outweighs its DPS.

'Maim is unbelievably overpowered', except it requires build up and isn't an instantaneously refreshable nuke which also completely refills your energy bar. Requires significant build up, and active gameplay to work effectively.

'Soundquake is just as broken', except it requires you to become completely immobile and you have to build specifically for it in that you basically have no other skills other than 4, and maybe 1 if you want to see enemies flop like a fish. Additionally because it deals blast damage, armor will almost completely negate it at high enough levels. At which point CP squads become viable, but at that point you're ignoring the fact that against Infested you may deal more damage, but ancients will negate massive swathes of your damage output. Corpus nullifiers, combas, and every other disrupting unit they have all laugh at you. Takes a long time depending on level, and only works on 1 faction consistently.

So let me break that all down for you. Limbo's 4 is currently the only skill in the game which scales infinitely and can effect massive swathes of the map, it also boasts the absolute shortest time-to-kill of any Ult in the game above starting levels.

Highest damage - Infinite just keeps going.

Fastest time-to-kill - Pressing 4 twice is extremely easy.

Massive radius - Has a massive radius, which is also cast at a point you are aiming at. This is akin to being a Lv. 20 wizard in DnD and using a max level fireball on a Lv.1 1-legged rat. Except the rat never gets to become resistant to you, because his 9 brothers are also getting hit, and dealing 100% HP damage to each other.

CC +Invincibility frames - Because of the plane shift enemies are stunned, in that time they cannot react, because when are they dropped out, they are already dead.

 

Jokes aside, fix limbo please, do not nerf limbo, fix him. It'd be a shame for such a good re-work to be completely undone.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Nox_Terminus

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Lookin fwd to this rework!

[yles9056]

I was confused when DE added more damage to Cataclysm. Not that I don't like it, but I thought Limbo was not meant to be a nuker frame.

[Nox_Terminus]

1 hour ago, yles9056 said:

I was confused when DE added more damage to Cataclysm. Not that I don't like it, but I thought Limbo was not meant to be a nuker frame.

I dont think it was entirely intentional, but we'll have to wait and see how they handle it.

[Synville]

WEHHH MY FAVORITE FRAME IS DOING ACTUAL DAMAGE NOW!

IT MUST BE NERFED, WEHHH.

Dude, it's PvE, and "balance" has proven time and time again that it just turns into "can't be used past Venus."

Think on that and be careful what you wish for.

[Nox_Terminus]

1 hour ago, Synville said:

WEHHH MY FAVORITE FRAME IS DOING ACTUAL DAMAGE NOW!

IT MUST BE NERFED, WEHHH.

Dude, it's PvE, and "balance" has proven time and time again that it just turns into "can't be used past Venus."

Think on that and be careful what you wish for.

Strawmen are terrible practice targets, they dont fight back.

[Silarious]

Reply to the person with all the videos spamming 4, I would like to say this.
Yes that looks hella op but you only showed it against infested and corpus.
If you could kill Grineer like you did with the corpus and infested then is would be completely and totally broken... but it's not.
Corpus and Infested are the 2 weakest factions in the game, try killing high-level grineer or corrupted enemies with their upscaling armor and tell me he is op.

P.S. Oh and thanks for suggesting that we nerf him so much that's he is worse than before re-work THANKS.

[jmthebigman]

9 minutes ago, Nox_Terminus said:

Cataclysm doesn't scale off of armor, it scales off of HP and shields. However if you and your squad all bring CP, he can one-shot groups of enemies regardless of level, especially when the cataclysm is maximum range. Testing on level 135 Corpus Techs and Ancient Healers killed in one shot every single time. This is equivalent to doing the damage of an Equinox nuke, except instead of taking minutes to build up that damage over time (and your team can contribute) you just press 4 twice, and watch the world burn.

I dont want to see him nerfed into oblivion, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that 10% HP+Shields dealt as damage is a bit nuts, especially when you consider that even with 40% power strength, you will still regularly nuke entire maps with 2 button presses. This also incentivizes the neglect of his 1 and 2, because why would you even need that? You're already one-shotting za warudo, because Dio said so.

Now Ill be perfectly clear here, I think powers which scale vs enemies are actually a step in the right direction as far as scaling is concerned. Lore-wise warframes are supposed to be these god-like humanoid weapons with the ability to channel void energy which is basically the force. The issue comes when you have to make this all happen within a reasonable spectrum as a game mechanic. So if one player in a group of 4 is killing everything by himself in a matter of milliseconds what is the point for the other people? Certainly some individuals dont mind being carried (especially when already half asleep) but there is a reasonable way and a silly one. Limbo's 4 is currently silly.

 

You'll say...

'Bladestorm can do it, and you're invincible for the whole cast', except Bladestorm was heavily nerfed via targeting mechanics, and most people now just focus on using Fatal Teleport, or just not using Ash at all. Additionally his 4 has a set number of attacks per target, which will only scale so far. Honestly if anyone should've had a reliable nuke it should be Ash, Limbo is supposed to be Bill Nye the Voidspace guy, but instead its Dio. Requires targeting of each and every target, and marks dont build up by themselves after marking them once, you have to continue starting at them, wasting your extremely short stealth duration. The Time-to-kill is so high that in most cases the rest of your squad will have killed most if not all of the enemies you were planning on slide-show simulating.

'World on Fire does the same thing', except World on Fire scales poorly and takes a long time to kill most things of a moderate level. Long Time-to-kill except for very early tilesets, at higher levels people use Firequake because the CC vastly outweighs its DPS.

'Maim is unbelievably overpowered', except it requires build up and isn't an instantaneously refreshable nuke which also completely refills your energy bar. Requires significant build up, and active gameplay to work effectively.

'Soundquake is just as broken', except it requires you to become completely immobile and you have to build specifically for it in that you basically have no other skills other than 4, and maybe 1 if you want to see enemies flop like a fish. Additionally because it deals blast damage, armor will almost completely negate it at high enough levels. At which point CP squads become viable, but at that point you're ignoring the fact that against Infested you may deal more damage, but ancients will negate massive swathes of your damage output. Corpus nullifiers, combas, and every other disrupting unit they have all laugh at you. Takes a long time depending on level, and only works on 1 faction consistently.

So let me break that all down for you. Limbo's 4 is currently the only skill in the game which scales infinitely and can effect massive swathes of the map, it also boasts the absolute highest time-to-kill of any Ult in the game above starting levels.

Highest damage - Infinite just keeps going.

Fastest time-to-kill - Pressing 4 twice is extremely easy.

Massive radius - Has a massive radius, which is also cast at a point you are aiming at. This is akin to being a Lv. 20 wizard in DnD and using a max level fireball on a Lv.1 1-legged rat. Except the rat never gets to become resistant to you, because his 9 brothers are also getting hit, and dealing 100% HP damage to each other.

CC +Invincibility frames - Because of the plane shift enemies are stunned, in that time they cannot react, because when are they dropped out, they are already dead.

 

Jokes aside, fix limbo please, do not nerf limbo, fix him. It'd be a shame for such a good re-work to be completely undone.

 

Aka change cataclysm

[Nox_Terminus]

1 hour ago, jmthebigman said:

Aka change cataclysm

They could make the HP/Shields% dealt scale off of power strength instead of being a separate modifier, and then all they'd need to do is either cap the max off at a respectable point or make the bonus take time to build up, like similar abilities, i.e. Maim. That way you actually have to build for that kind of niche, and it leaves the time-stop shenanigans intact.

1 hour ago, Silarious said:

Reply to the person with all the videos spamming 4, I would like to say this.
Yes that looks hella op but you only showed it against infested and corpus.
If you could kill Grineer like you did with the corpus and infested then is would be completely and totally broken... but it's not.
Corpus and Infested are the 2 weakest factions in the game, try killing high-level grineer or corrupted enemies with their upscaling armor and tell me he is op.

P.S. Oh and thanks for suggesting that we nerf him so much that's he is worse than before re-work THANKS.

As soon as I noticed the effectiveness against Corpus and Infested I immediately went to Berehynia with a 4 CP team, and it worked the exact same way there too. Mind you I only noticed it when I was derping around in the simulacrum with various projectile weapons (Za Warudo memes are quite fun ).

Edited April 3, 2017 by Nox_Terminus

[TaylorsContraction]

Cataclysm is definitely extremely powerful right now and imo op.  The only argument people make is that it doesn't ignore armor but 4x cp has been meta since its introduction so it hardly affects his ability to wipe entire tile sets of enemies.

[--Q--Savokki]

Most of you dont understand what it means to have a frame like trinity that deals % dmg but not on single target but as AoE, scaleable frame abilities has been a thing for long time but only few frames possess these abilities and for that im little sad. 

There is players that wanna shoot, yes rivens give extra dmg, but eventualy  that dmg will fall off as the enemy lvl rises.

There is players who like to hack'n slash with various melee weapons, melee rivens are coming wich  is nice and all, but it will fall off eventualy  ofc naramon helps with surviving even if you can't kill.

Then there is players who like to cast abilities, rumors of unheard rumors, about frame rivens are whispered in the void. They most likely work the same way as other rivens and add dmg, well frame abilities carry  a long way when the enemy lvl rises and even further IF theres rivens for frames.

 

but back to topic, as i love playing caster frames and use my abilities as my main source of destruction and safety, limbo fit's there perfectly. he is now a frame that deals % dmg on cataclysm collapse. It is not as easy that it might sound, to play limbo in lvls that one shot you you cant just spam 4 and hope for the best, you will die trying. To get all out of Limbo one has to utilize 3/4 of the abilities just for basic ability  rotation  to keep you alive and kill or keep enemies at bay.  ppl call nerf on this because ppl see him OP, well i can say if thats true then nerf all AoE frames...      everybody can 1 shot LOW lvl mobs...

To properly use Limbo is much trickier im talking about lvl's beyond sortie lvl and up to lvl cap 9999  the sheer ammount of casting required to play caster limbo in high lvl takes more coordination and keeping eye on battlefield than pressing 1 button over and over. ranting again... ok so most dmg will fall off except % word for it is scale-able abilities. To use these abilities one has to accept the hate from most of tenno, they dont like that there is a way to live without max str builds...  well most of them haven't even tasted the wrath of lvl 3000 lancer  or even how trinity one shots them, because it wont suite their playstyle.  well im not one to argue wich play style is best *Cough* abilities *Cough*   but i am not going to around yelling nerf on things in don't like or want to play,    but hey thats just me ranting on ranters.

either way i welcome Limbo to my family of scale-able abilities, together we wish that some day lvl 2000 enemies pop up in navigation and watch the solar system burn, a little  just before Limbo saves it with few well placed catalysm and equinox on cleaner duty.

ps. in Team, Limbos role is support Dps. not main no, why?  well if you havent tested i can tell that he doesn't do that well against "HEAVY units"   he is very good against trash mobs. well sure he can be build that way but i see equinox much better for reasons ofc.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by --Q--Savokki

[FoxyKabam]

11 minutes ago, Synville said:

"balance" has proven time and time again that it just turns into "can't be used past Venus."

when has a balance pass ever turned anything into "can't be used past venus"?

[FoxyKabam]

inb4 cataclysm nerf

[Nox_Terminus]

1 hour ago, FoxyKabam said:

when has a balance pass ever turned anything into "can't be used past venus"?

That is a good question.

[Ketec]

Dif it already get a stealth nerf? played  a intercept for syndicate and had grineer often wander inside my cataclysm and not get frozen by stasis.

[Yaerion]

5 minutes ago, --Q--Savokki said:

-

Banished from the General Discussion dimension to the Feedback]Warframes&Abilities one.

[main_antagonist]

What about Nova antimatter drop?

Saryn?

Equinox?

Ember?

People are gonna be salty about nuke frames regardless /thread

[Tsukinoki]

9 minutes ago, Nox_Terminus said:

As soon as I noticed the effectiveness against Corpus and Infested I immediately went to Berehynia with a 4 CP team, and it worked the exact same way there too. Mind you I only noticed it when I was derping around in the simulacrum with various projectile weapon

Could you try it without the most broken aura in the game(yes CP is needed to fight the broken grineer armor scaling but the fact is that it is hands down the most broken aura as it completely removes armor and therefore utterly strips away an entire scaling mechanic) and see what happens?

Yes it nukes things when they have zero armor to defend against it.  What about when enemies actually have armor to shrug off most of that damage?

So yes, we've found that "It can one-shot large groups of mobs when they have zero armor" but what happens when armor is thrown in?
Especially since the majority of random groups wont have 4 CPs equipped.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[main_antagonist]

Speaking of nukers the only time I've been in game so far and see people complain were people playing other nuke frame who were mad that I did more damage everyone else who played support frames etc had no problem.