[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[-CM-NineFingers]

22 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

@-CM-Limbo You say they can always shoot, but completely ignore the fact that the ability takes away all feedback for those shots. Do you know if you have fired enough to kill the target? No. Do you know if you hit? No. Do you know if someone else has already fired enough to kill that target? No. You act like just anyone can override that 300 projectile limit as well. Tell someone stuck in their with a Dread and their Lex Prime that they aren't being forced to melee. Hope they don't have a rank 6 ceramic dagger equipped. Pretending there aren't massive problems with his kit doesn't make them go away. 

People know how much damage they deal per usual. If you're not sure, just give it a couple extra shots (or a mag if it's an auto weapon). It's not like ammo is scarce in warframe, I legit never ran out of ammo in my entire life, and Amprex is my most used weapon. While I agree you should get a feedback on how much damage you dealt to an enemy (for example, shooting at an enemy darkens a part of the health bar according to the damage he will receive), I see no actual problem with shooting in the cataclysm. Only problem you will face is beam weapons, that get seriously #*($%%@ in stasis.

On the other point, not everyone carries only semi auto weapons on warframe, even more when semi auto weapons are not suitable to be your only form of attacking in a horde killing game. Everyone carries at least an auto, and if they don't, they always carry a good range melee. It's just how it is. I never saw people carrying semiauto only weapons and crappy melees at the same time. If they have at least a good melee or an auto weapon, or a shotgun, the problem is non existant. Statistics say the problem is not a massive problem like you say, so please avoid overexagerating issues. They need to be adressed, but overreaction will get him nerfed to unknown levels, and that's never a good thing.

[-CM-NineFingers]

23 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

@-CM-Limbo

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced his '4' is the main issue with his 2 being fixable with a tweak in its behavior. His 4 is obtrusive visually and if it is going to stay it doesn't need to have that sphere effect. It could be something like Oberon's hallowed ground or Nidus's '4' with it on the ground or something similar to Nova's 4 and just debuff the Ai. There are too many special effects going on at once during most group games and having that much of a distortion is distracting.

I am extremely biased against his 2 and how it works with his 4. This type of CC is toxic in warframe and and it's the only hard CC that I can think of that slows that game down so dramatically. No CC should be safe, nor should it allow an area lock down. There is nothing about this power that seems remotely balanced to me.

His 2 could be fixed by making it automatically kill the Ai if the damage suspended is in excess of the Ai's total effective health. Make it imminent, if someone points a Tigris Prime and shots a level 30 runner in stasis, it should instantly kill them. The player shouldn't have to use melee or whatever, well maybe if they want bonus damage or something.

Hard CC and area nukes are why DE put Nullifier Crewman in the game in the first place. I do not want more factions getting bubble boys just to balance out limbo.

I agree you should get a feedback on how much damage you dealt to an enemy (for example, shooting at an enemy darkens a part of the health bar according to the damage he will receive). The visual change you propose to the Cataclysm is the same one I proposed a few post ago, I totally agree with that.

On the 2nd point, Vauban. You can toss massive range bastilles everywhere, effectively deactivating all enemies, with no cap on the number of bastilles active at the same time. That and stasis work exactly the same when you put more than one bastille, with the perk that bastilles won't freeze your bullets, and the visuals are even more cancerous. 

To be fair, I would prefer that stasis slowed enemies and bullets and dealt  damage over time(based on each mob's health and shields, not armor) when an enemy is trapped in stasis. A low percentage, not linked to strength, so higher than 200% duration would kill an unarmored mob. that would encourage low range, high duration cataclysm that you can use as a safe bubble for defense objectives or to regain some energy and shields, while you can still shoot at will and receive feedback on your shoots, and make enemies able to leave the rift too.

I think that would erase the problems with stasis, while making it still useful to use. If enemy and allied projectiles travel slower thru the air, you can dodge them, and while it's still safer than being outside, it stops being 100% deathproof.

[DonOctavia]

What make u think limbo is a good cc Frame? He can only stop some enemys for some time. If only one nullifier is in range all his cc is gone. Then u cant use Cataclym for cc as well. So u ve to use his 1 outside the rift. Looks like spam 1 in all direrctions while hiding behind frost globe. In that case u can skip limbo. Just use frost max range with his 4. There u will also get bonus dmg and enemys can break apart. Limbo is no good cc and he can´t also dealing damage. His Rift torrent is not working. I ve had missions on hiracon with over 1k % bonus damage with rift torrent. BUT i never had more damage from that. Not even + 100 %.

There are way better frames for cc then Limbo. I think he is only usefull at arena for fight with kela. I gave up fight for Limbo here. Seems like DE dont like there own creation.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Sorry friend, you have an uncomfortable layout there... You're on console, so I can see why, but this is why I'm not a fan of console ports for PC games ^^ You see, it's already separate on PC, so I was surprised that it was even a topic.

Question is, what button layout would be better for you? What would you be prepared to give up on the controller in favour of a separate roll/slide mechanic?

[LazyKnight]

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

On the 2nd point, Vauban. You can toss massive range bastilles everywhere, effectively deactivating all enemies, with no cap on the number of bastilles active at the same time. That and stasis work exactly the same when you put more than one bastille, with the perk that bastilles won't freeze your bullets, and the visuals are even more cancerous. 

I wish more people would buy the smoke color pallet for Vauban and use the bottom right black, it fixes that bedazzlement caused by spamming bastilles . That black makes bastilles effect nothing more than light grey bars with a wind effect at the edge of the effect range, instead of colored bars with a bright wind.

Speaking of this, why doesn't DE let a player disable displaying the color of other players? If DE gave me an option to turn down the effects of other players, I would always use it.  I am sick of Octavia's effects even more than that of limbo. I like to be able to see what is going on and there is normally too much useless visual information. 

I used to play Vauban a lot (solo) and rarely in groups. He's good against Grineer and Infested but a dead wight against Corpus and Corrupted. When the rare Vauban appears in a sortie it only cause an issue( for me) when his range traps them behind walls or in a hallway forcing me to move to get into line of sight.  As far as I know, it doesn't do anything else that prevents a player from playing normally. He can slow things down on certain maps, but it doesn't stop people from killing at the same speed they normally would if they play around it. Unless if they want to use a melee weapon and the levitated Ai is too high to hit with their dagger.

I am not sure how to fix stasis, as long as it is made more pug friendly, I guess I would be happy.

Edited April 24, 2017 by LazyKnight

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I think your just going to have to accept this. I have no issues using Limbo at all. 3rd most used frame actually.

You should be using toggle crouch anyway. 

[Fallen_Echo]

21 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

I am sick of Octavia's effects even more than that of limbo.

I heard this from a lot of people, could you explain whats soo bad with octavias effects? (apart from her 3 which apparently eats up fps badly)

[Automata]

After the buff and uneventful Nerf I'd like to put my thoughts on how limbo should function.
Currently he disrupts teammates, his 4 is unusable against corpus and orokin due to nullifiers, banish only works in the same plane and rift surge is annoying and least beneficial ability out of all (not taking the augment in mind). Plus with new frames having a lot of utility and nifty tricks, I think Limbo should be revisited once more nut just put under the sledge hammer.
Here's how I think limbo should function.
1st ability Banish - single target ability that both banishes and triggers stasis, does not allow to disable stasis.
2nd ability Rift tide - cone banish, puts targets in a 35° cone and 40m range into the rift.
3rd ability - stasis, unchanged, lowered energy cost due to being moved from 2nd to 3rd ability whilst retaining the same functionality.
4th ability - cataclysm, doesn't degrade in size, nullifiers can only walk through it and liberate other targets the bubble touches. Since surge is gone, Rift torment works with cataclysm and each killed target within cataclysm has a 50% chance to banish a target outside of cataclysm. Also nuking. Cataclysm can take away up to 75% of all target health but the catch is that it has to be up for 95% of its duration and closed before it collapses. If it isn't closed it deals abysmal damage. If it is closed prematurely it deals less damage think at half of its duration deals 10%. That way it takes some degree of skillful timing to make it deal the highest possible damage.

So how does limbo not cause everyone to leave squad? Simple. Banishes targets are partially set into the rift, they exist in both planes and can be damaged in both planes however landing a killing blow on a target brings another mechanic into play, rift degradation, target remains in both planes after his death for 10s but he does not move or interact with anything (think of it as a samaris target after a scan). This makes limbos augment, rift torment, more usable due to gradually decreasing target count.
Remember the portals limbo left after a dash? F*** that. Limbo and all partially rifted enemies act as a one way gateway into the rift plane. Just walk through them. Anyone in the rift plane receives a x1,5 damage multiplier that scales with power strength. Each player has his own modifier depending on power strength. It would promote players to play with limbo inside the rift. Also rifted targets and limbo is glowing with the flame as it was prior to his update but it's only visible to everyone outside of rift to make the "walking gateways" more visible. Limbo does not get this visual que.

Thoughts?

[LazyKnight]

29 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I heard this from a lot of people, could you explain whats soo bad with octavias effects? (apart from her 3 which apparently eats up fps badly)

Her mallets constant beat is like watching a Music Visualizer. It's not the type of thing i want to look at while trying to watch out for  Ai that are teleportingin around me. It draws my attention away from other things that I need to be looking out for and it is simply makes the background too busy. Her resonator moving around with a mallet just makes the effect of mallet worse, and It is nearly as distracting to me as it is to the AI. Combine her mallet with her Amp and it feels like I am playing a dance dance revolution game or one of those games types (I might be thinking of the wrong game).

I do not like light effects to begin with, and I do not care if a player want to watch their own I just do not want to see it.

Edited April 24, 2017 by LazyKnight

[Marine027]

The problem again as always is not the frame but idiots who troll on purpose.

People were able to play him and can play him now. Leave him alone for once now.

Just because idots can't handle how he works doens't mean he needs another rework agian.

Only tweaks to his abiltiys please, but not another rework for god sake.

[shadow0727]

To be honest, this is a tough subject.

As a limbo player post rework, pre-nerf, his damage was out of line. It was easy to run long missions, granted they were against infested. Grineer and Corpus were more difficult for varying reasons. I think that the nerf they took with the way cataclysm works was a little extreme. I think that at max, only dealing 25% is far too low and the fact that you need your bubble to be the size of a dime in order to do any real damage now is a little excessive. On the other side of things, Limbo is now more of a support frame than ever. You can build for a high duration/range build and freeze everything from here to the next city over, or you can build for a high damage, quick closing cataclysm to try and deal some real damage.

As a player in a party with a limbo, i hate the fact that you have to reach a 300 projectile cap in order to break stasis and actually use your primary or secondary. That can get extremely frustrating, especially if you you didnt bring a melee, or your melee isnt strong enough to scratch the enemy. You begin to feel like dead weight and it isnt fun to literally stand there (or meditate as i often do) while the limbo has everything frozen and you cant do anything about it without running out of ammo first

[Ketec]

Back to the moon spy queue. The Cataclysm nerf killed it. 
Damage is a huge joke now - might aswell be 0.
Even range affects it negatively.
On top of getting a penalty with more enemies  in the area. 
Not to mention the horrible damage type vs almost anything.

So now you get 10 enemies with 1000hp = 100 damage vs 1000 from 10% per enemy. On top of that, large aoe even drops damage to 25% - so 25 damage instead of 1000.
400x damage nerf is just extreme.

So now Limbo got two useless skills and a mostly useless banish + annoying banish mechanics.
And the fact that allies can disable stasis adds a third useless skills - waste of energy for a skill that people constantly disable.

So whats left? Moon spy. Nothing else - so the whole rework just became pointless.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Ketec

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, Hom_Tanks said:

Thoughts?

Limbo even before the "Rework" was fine how he was, all he needed was a handful of simple tweaks, a full blown Rework was not necessary, but it is welcome.

So the Rework was given to us. Now keep in mind, as alot of players, infact 90% of the player base, get too hyped up and begin to get too attached to a build, and then only to get really upset when DE "balances" it out. (Yes people, the term "balance" is a real word!).

Now, about the "Nerf", it was absolutely necessary, due to Limbo's ulty power, was far to OP, a single stroke of the key and everything whuold be killed, once more, this is the "Press 4 to win" Meta, that everyone seems to desire in this game. I'll like to be the one to first to point out, this is a MMO type of Game, not a game with a single keystroke and you win the game, if you wish to play a game like that, play a street fighter game.

So, anyone who is complaing about the "Nerf" is unjustified, and smipley want their "Easy" mode back. Be all means, if thats what they want, then in all due respect they can, but as you kown, not EVERYONE wants that, including, you guessed it, DE.

 

While I can understand and respect the idea, that Limbo's stasis can be unfun to play with, as it freezes players weapons and such, Understandable and a simple "Tweak" can fix that, a hole new Rework, is NOT necessary, Limbo as he is is fine and playable, people just need to learn to remaster a frame, If they can't, then Limbo is not for them. If they really want to leave a game/match, over a single Warframe, ruining their fun, then by all due respect, they should just either go Solo, or play with trusted friends.

 

In the end of the day, people just need to learn how to relearn a Warframe that has changed. For Example: I do not like Limbo's Plane gameplay, as I used to find the able to banish regardless of what plane, your in alot. But like a normal person, I will learn to adapt.

 

 

You are welcome to do suggestions and feedback, but perhaps learn how to adapt to a new frame, before you demand a rework. Also I;ll like to point out that, you may wish to tone down your anger, as "Swearing" is not  constructive feedback.

 

 

Good Day/Evening

 

 

Legion 

 

   

Edited April 24, 2017 by LegionCynex
Bathroom Breaks are annoying

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Sorry friend, you have an uncomfortable layout there... You're on console, so I can see why, but this is why I'm not a fan of console ports for PC games ^^ You see, it's already separate on PC, so I was surprised that it was even a topic.

Question is, what button layout would be better for you? What would you be prepared to give up on the controller in favour of a separate roll/slide mechanic?

That one's easy. Alt-fire. Alt-fire triggers Rift dash; roll/crouch remains the same---limbo retains the classic roll; he just also gets the dash. 

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You should be using toggle crouch anyway. 

I am. 

However, I think your first point is true: I am just going to have to live with it (my way to live with it will be to not use Limbo). But you don't get if you don't ask. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

19 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

That one's easy. Alt-fire. Alt-fire triggers Rift dash; roll/crouch remains the same---limbo retains the classic roll; he just also gets the dash. 

 

I am. 

However, I think your first point is true: I am just going to have to live with it (my way to live with it will be to not use Limbo). But you don't get if you don't ask. 

I think we both understand why alt fire cannot work.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I think we both understand why alt fire cannot work.

You asked me what I'd give up. I would remap alt-fire to Rift Dash, and I would be happy to live without alt-fire functionality. 

Unless I misunderstood the question, what someone else would choose to do with their mapping is irrelevant. 

Basically, I want "Movement Triggered Power" to be a new command in the controller mapping list. That way, I can put it wherever I want, and everyone else can do likewise, and everyone is happy. 

 

Now, if the question was "what should DE do to permanently decouple them?" I'd like them to just acknowledge that Limbo is the Five Native Powers frame, and let us trigger Rift Walk with whatever button you've chosen to map to that power. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[malekas]

39 minutes ago, Ketec said:

Back to the moon spy queue. The Cataclysm nerf killed it. 
Damage is a huge joke now - might aswell be 0.
Even range affects it negatively.
On top of getting a penalty with more enemies  in the area. 
Not to mention the horrible damage type vs almost anything.

So now you get 10 enemies with 1000hp = 100 damage vs 1000 from 10% per enemy. On top of that, large aoe even drops damage to 25% - so 25 damage instead of 1000.
400x damage nerf is just extreme.

So now Limbo got two useless skills and a mostly useless banish + annoying banish mechanics.
And the fact that allies can disable stasis adds a third useless skills - waste of energy for a skill that people constantly disable.

So whats left? Moon spy. Nothing else - so the whole rework just became pointless.

Not completely pointless. Limbo can still turn any Mobile Defense mission into a total joke.

 

By himself limbo is a God. But in a group you have to tone down his abilities so much, so you don't piss off your teammates, that you might as well not bother bringing him.

[Ketec]

9 minutes ago, malekas said:

Not completely pointless. Limbo can still turn any Mobile Defense mission into a total joke.

 

By himself limbo is a God. But in a group you have to tone down his abilities so much, so you don't piss off your teammates, that you might as well not bother bringing him.

That's the thing - the party can just turn off your stasis. Unless you happen to have a premade group to play with - but most don't.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Tbh, as a console player, I'm ok with Limbo's Rift dodge. I just have to keep reminding myself that I'm playing as Limbo, and if I'm speedrunning with him on Spy/Rescue/Sabotage I have to keep the double-tap-to-roll concept a specified function for Limbo. If I'm going to run through the map, bullet-jump across with an elemental parkour mod then tap jump twice to roll in middle to keep up the momentum, then slide bulletjump double jump repeat just to maneuver.

And of course, I always run my main Limbo build with max Sprint speed. Gotta go fast.

For my personal experience, I'm able to adapt just fine. I do sympathize with players that can't, it is a topic regarding a frame's form factor and our own muscle memory when we've all adapted to Parkour 2.0.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Yeah. The question for me is whether it's worth it to adapt. I pretty much used Limbo for spy and rescue, and there are frames that do the job just as well without requiring me to change anything about how I play. 

(Also, I think it's kind of a user experience cardinal sin to alter longstanding, universal controls like that, but that's a separate debate)

Edited April 24, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

Her mallets constant beat is like watching a Music Visualizer. It's not the type of thing i want to look at while trying to watch out for  Ai that are teleportingin around me. It draws my attention away from other things that I need to be looking out for and it is simply makes the background too busy. Her resonator moving around with a mallet just makes the effect of mallet worse, and It is nearly as distracting to me as it is to the AI. Combine her mallet with her Amp and it feels like I am playing a dance dance revolution game or one of those games types (I might be thinking of the wrong game).

I do not like light effects to begin with, and I do not care if a player want to watch their own I just do not want to see it.

Wait a bit, your only problem is that it draws your attention?

Damn i thought you see some bright flashing colors or something.

To be fair, this was discussed many times along with telos boltace and the synoid simulor that people need a toggle allied effects option ingame, but so far DE doesnt want to create one.

15 minutes ago, Ketec said:

That's the thing - the party can just turn off your stasis. Unless you happen to have a premade group to play with - but most don't.

I just built limbo but if i understand it right, the only way i can normally use him is to banish a group of enemies, cast stasis, enter rift, murder them all with a melee or a gun. Rinse and repeat.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Fallen_Echo

[Insizer]

I absolutely love how it is coupled to the roll function.  It is one of the best things about this rework, if not the best thing about the rework for me.  It is an easy way to access one of his important capabilities and allows his first to be a wave rather than a single target selection while allowing you to easily unbanish unintentionally banished allies.  It truly has made Limbo much more easy and fluid to use.  

Your control scheme should not have changed, roll just has an extra effect, don't make it sound like it is somehow more complex just because they bootstrapped an essential function to a preexisting mobility option.  If you want extra mobility then bullet jump.  Rolling is move + crouch + crouch, bullet jump is crouch + jump, sliding is move + crouch (EDIT: I have crouch toggle on, so this is how my control scheme is, which is different from OP's configuration).  They are three very different actions.

Both of your suggestions are bad.  One gets rid of one of his abilities and makes limbo have 2 abilities that do the same thing again.  The other makes no sense as a timer would be straight downgrade to the ability while backflipping out of the Rift requires you to do the same thing as rolling/dashing while also aiming and moving backwards... this does nothing but make Limbo less fluid to use.

I don't see how you can screw up Rift Dash like you say because they are all very different combinations of actions.  As for instinctively rolling... same here, but I learned to stop doing so after the 2nd time I accidentally de-Rifted myself... it really isn't that hard at all.

EDIT: see my correction above to understand my crossing out what I said.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Insizer

[LazyKnight]

18 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Damn i thought you see some bright flashing colors or something.

Having a Bright flashing color scheme for the Special effects is just a cherry on top for the annoying factor. I know some people like having a light show and all that, but it it just gives me a headache.

Yeah, I want a toggle. A "Show allied powers" or to forces their color to invisible would be great.

Edited April 24, 2017 by LazyKnight

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Roll is move + crouch/roll button. Crouch then crouch just makes you stand back up. For Limbo, obviously, the animation is different plus it also toggles Rift.

Roll and crouch are the same button on console (in the event you did not know) and yeah, there's now one more toggle (Rift state) that the roll/crouch button does. It is more complex whether you want it to be or not. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Anyway, this appears to be an unpopular request. I'm okay with that. Like I said, there's zero chance someone from DE hears it if it isn't asked.