Basic (Non Prime) Frames Should be Guaranteed

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, Latiac said:

 

The grind is what the game is, we enjoy it and the game caters to that audience, the same way Borderlands caters to the audience with it's grindy loot system.

In all fairness you can even 'grind' platinum with relative ease.

But I agree, it's alright for people to dip in to play the game, but if they start to think the grind is tough before aquiring the first warframe then they probably wouldn't enjoy the rest of the game.

I know some games do like to hand things to you on a silver plate, and that's alright to do occasionally, (Junctions somewhat do this to help newer players?) but to give away frames like that? that somewhat defeats the whole purpose.

 

10 minutes ago, Latiac said:

That's RNG for you - You ARE guaranteed a part as an end of mission reward every time you fight the boss.

If they want to move to Destiny 2, that's their choice to make - if they are considering quitting the game because they can't farm Rhino then they probably aren't fully invested in it? (Maybe they are who knows, but Rhino REALLY isn't that hard to farm, the mission is Trivial at best and there are always people running a node that early in the starchart for team play - the parts are on a 1/3 drop chance) it just seems like a case of bad luck, we all get it in games, I spent 7 missions getting Ivara, but others done upwards of 30.

 

I get what you mean, but that would essentially make the game incredibly Trivial, Guarantee a frame at the end of every boss fight? DE looses a large amount of money, players don't really feel like they've achieved something either. it's a loss/loss scenario.

No. It's no lose/lose. DE retains more players who enjoy and will support the game.

Players feel like they DID accomplish something by beating a boss and receiving a reward.

Teens will support the game when they have money to spend. But they don't have money to throw at every little frustration.

[KIREEK]

if doing 12 runs is to much and you aren't having fun, then tell them to quit now as the game will likely require you to do 1000 missions over a long period of time, this isn't exactly a game where you "finish it" after 5 hours of gameplay, this is meant for you to have fun and to do things over and over.

[Latiac]

6 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

 

No. It's no lose/lose. DE retains more players who enjoy and will support the game.

Players feel like they DID accomplish something by beating a boss and receiving a reward.

Teens will support the game when they have money to spend. But they don't have money to throw at every little frustration.

Borderlands uses an incredibly similar loot system, I'd be dissapointed if all the bosses dropped a Legendary weapon immediately after their defeat.

Can the game be frustrating? A little bit sure - but as a free to play game that's how DE makes part of their income, some people WILL get frustrated and will buy a part - some others will just stick at it and get the part needed, we're lucky DE haven't gone down a pay to win route with the game.

I get that they don't want to throw money at things, and that's perfectly fine, they don't need too, sometimes it takes a while to get things in a game like Warframe, many other games exist with similar loot systems and it attracts a large amount of players, it keeps them going, games cater to a specific audience, if they don't like the way the game plays or works, then they will PROBABLY dislike the rest of it - I don't see why DE would change it to cater to people who want things handed to them.

It's the exact same as other games, Destiny itself has Microtransactions behind paywalls and can be a bit of a grind to get the weapons and gear you want (Looking at you Legendary Engrams), Destiny wouldn't change the game either.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Latiac

[xXDeadsinxX]

If you're complaining that the grind is too much, than this game isn't right for you. This game has a lot of grind.

[DatDarkOne]

43 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

You do realise Warframe is an M Rated game not meant to be played by children, right?

Edit: Let's also not forget, If you want something immediately, that's what Platinum's for, The minor nuisance of farming all parts is part of the price for getting the Frame.

 

15 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

And they cannot stand the grind? Let them go mate, they do not have what it takes to play Warframe, this game is GRIND PERSONIFIED.

Also, yes, we defend the grind, because that's what this game is. The point of Platinum is to skip the grind and get what you want.

If these kids can't stand the Grind or buy platinum, they're not potential players, heck, they're no better than bot accounts.

Not that I'm defending the grind, but I have to agree with all the points Jicematoro said.  Especially the ones I bolded.  

@BlackCoMerc Sorry, but that's just my opinion on this.  I do understand what you mean in this topic though.  :D  

[Tsukinoki]

@BlackCoMerc Back again after "leaving this game forever" last time?  And with pretty much the exact same "The grind is killing the game and driving everyone away!!!!"
Welcome back.  Not much has changed with the game because believe it or not the fanbase of the game enjoys the grind.

There are plenty of games like warframe where the players enjoy the grind.  They have fun with the grind.  It keeps a large amount of players coming back and enjoying the game.

Doing a dozen or so missions doesn't take long.  Its not hard.
It sounds like they forced themselves to sit down and run the mission again and again and again without pauses...maybe they should have broken up the grind and did other things and returned once in a while to see if they were lucky?

Most of the players I introduce to the game enjoy it and have a sense of satisfaction of grinding out every piece of the frame and would be disappointed if it was a one time affair where they do minimal work and get everything just handed to them on a silver platter with no actual effort put into the game.

This game is built around grinding.  Its core fanbase enjoys that type of gameplay and wouldn't have stuck around this long if they didn't.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[Vox_Preliator]

If they aren't having fun playing the game while grinding, then they are not going to enjoy the game period.  Enjoyment in Warframe typically doesn't come from the attainment of shiny things, it comes from enjoying the gameplay while trying to attain shiny things.

[nickelshark]

I don't think it's all that needed. WF is a grind. While I agree that some frames like equinox need to be toned down a bit. But seriously though, if they can't handle the grind for rhino, who is one of the easiest grinds, there is no way they are getting through the rest of the game.

I will say that potatoes need a more reliable way to get them even if it is a crazy grind for em.

[Snowbluff]

Warframe grinding is a sinkhole and it keeps getting worse.

Warframe are now being locked because extensively pointless content. Trying to grind original saryn is a crime against humanity. Excal is now locked behind a similar grind. The new player experience is taking a step back; bad play retention is deserved at this point.

[Lievene]

7 hours ago, Fiftycentis said:

Fiftycentis thinks of how many time he rekted Tyl Regor for Equinox, then start thinking about Mesa farming.

Having problems on farming rhino makes me laugh honestly. If you get burned trying to farm rhino, well... warframe it's not the game for you

I'm just saying this because i know i got lucky this time , and because i love to show my luck to the world ( yeah yeah , i'm a jerk lucky guy ) but , i got all parts of equinox in 9 run of tyl regor ! ( got the night Blueprint twice )

 

Also , to don't be complete off the topic , if they feel frustated farming for Rhino , or basic frame that drop from boss , they will hate when they will try to get Octavia , Nidus or Harrow ! ( maybe other frame that drop the same way ? i think that the only one that drop those way )

[Chipputer]

7 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Back again after "leaving this game forever" last time?  And with pretty much the exact same "The grind is killing the game and driving everyone away!!!!"

He's been back for a few weeks, now, actually. Same old Merc, though. Archwing is bad. Nullifiers are bad. Grind is bad. Make Warframe into this other game because it's bad.

4 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

Warframe are now being locked because extensively pointless content. Trying to grind original saryn is a crime against humanity. Excal is now locked behind a similar grind. The new player experience is taking a step back; bad play retention is deserved at this point.

These are anomalies and will probably get looked at eventually. As with every system in Warframe, DE will eventually ease up on the requirements as people start to complain more and more. Saryn and Excal are those, "they get mentioned but rarely get a full blown mega-topic about them," issues. DE won't move if people don't make it clear that their grind level is unacceptable.

Then again, I take those complaints with a heavy grain of salt because this is the same forum that complains that the Atlas farm is just so darn unreasonable even though it's perfectly easy to do.

 

But yeah, blargh bargle bloob grind is bad something blargle anecdote to prove the point bleeber blubble bleah.

[Volinus7]

If Warframe monetizes only cosmetics, there's no need for those frustration. There're many games that monetize only cosmetics if you don't want to touch the supreme skinner box in WF.

People have different limits and you might or might not understand people who grind again and again beyond a certain limit, you might even think it's a dumb game for dumb people. Grinding frustration is effective and viable as monetized progression promoter otherwise DE would abolish it long time ago. 

Also don't forget that sunk cost fallacy is the main form of player retention in WF, more grind = more effective. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Volinus7

[Sziklamester]

Grind is need because this game created around it. The problem is the overgrinding and the fact, the game uses a very bad rng system which is fine for the devs because that make them money because the frustrated peoples will pay instead of grind. The bad grinding should be toned down and they ned to make the reward system consistent in order to let the peoples get the items in a few run but not let them burn out because they can get everything easily. This is a hard thing because the rng is different to everyone and in order they need to change the numbers even replace their rng with a token like system which is clearly works against them so I doubt they will change it so basically the tedious grind remain. 

They should also make new bosses - semi bosses which drop warframe parts and overall make it rewardous to go and fight with a boss. They could make it better if just improve the numbers and revisit their drop system. Also they need to make new rewards and buff the filler mods because that is annoying and most of them are useless. All mods should be useful and not only for extra credits and endo.

[DrBorris]

I like the grind for traditional Warframes for the most part (Mesa excluded). Just instantly receiving stuff takes away from the attachment to said stuff. Yes, grinding Equinox took quite a bit of time, but it felt good when I got her and it increased my investment in her. If receiving a Warframe as simple as completing a node it would be more like just another toy as opposed to something you worked for. It is the difference between working to earn something or receiving it as a gift. 

 

If someone gets annoyed by farming Rhino, then the game is just not for them. Warframe is a game about the grind, and that is not me bashing it. I know it is weird to say that it is good to work for stuff in a game, but that is a niche Warframe has taken. While most games have moved to the route of instant gratification, Warframe clings to the older style of MMOs where you really got to work for your Progression. Yes, I know this is not for everyone, but that does not mean it is bad. Like, I look at Destiny 2 and think "That's it?", there is so little sense of character progression that I see it difficult to attach yourself to your character. Sure, there is ligh-I mean power grinding, but that is not adding anything to your character beyond numbers. I am very interested in picking up Destiny 2, but I have this feeling that my connection to character will be nowhere near what Warframe can give.

 

That rant went longer than I expected... TL;DR: The grind is what makes Warframe, Warframe, for better or for worse. Taking away the core of progression takes away from the character of the game. 

[-Bv-Qrow_the_Hokage]

To give some more perspective on the grinding, It took me about 800 hours to farm most of the stuff in game, and there are things that I still don't have. It will easily take 200 hours to start a good base in the game. Grinding for stuff is really what personifies the game, and it's what I enjoy. The mindless slaughter of tens of thousands of enemies, figuring out new techniques by doing them on accident, researching a warframes abilities and figuring out how to maximize their potential to the top nth percent. 

 

Warframe takes a lot of time investment to get to a point where it becomes easy to do anything. The grind isn't easy, and thats what makes it great. (Then again, with all the plat I farm I just buy all the new stuff)

[(XBOX)Spaztic Magic]

Perhaps, rather than focusing on the grind as drudgery, why not focus on what you ARE getting from the grind: resources--credits, crafting materials, etc. All of this is vital and unless you're going to grind to get them you're going to have to spend money (which would, honestly, be foolish). If you look at it from that perspective, the grind doesn't seem so "pointless". I don't mourn the grind, personally, because I am always getting some sort of return for my invested time and effort (whether or not I feel it is an equitable return is a different matter). You're always getting something for investing in/completing a mission. It may not be what you were shooting for, but you're getting something, and that something has plenty of purpose.

But, as has been said ad nauseam, if they are struggling already then they will only continue to struggle until if/when their mindset about the grind changes.

[TaylorsContraction]

The only frames that need reduced grind are mesa, saryn and now Excalibur. But beyond that the Warframes are acquired in a timely manner.

I agree that the majority of the grind in the game is very nice. It is way less than any mmo I played and also gets easier as you build up your arsenal. The exception being riven rerolling, that's definitely a grind fest on par with Korean mmos and I hope the grind for rerolling rivens is alleviated.

[Fiftycentis]

18 minutes ago, TaylorsContraction said:

saryn

saryn already had a buff in farming, less beacons needed; and kela don't drop only saryn, but also some cool mod

[Almagnus1]

So... are you suggesting something akin to an alert (or quest) that gives you blueprints based off of how many times you've killed the boss?

What would you suggest replace the warframe parts on the boss loot table?

[BlackCoMerc]

19 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

Warframe grinding is a sinkhole and it keeps getting worse.

Warframe are now being locked because extensively pointless content. Trying to grind original saryn is a crime against humanity. Excal is now locked behind a similar grind. The new player experience is taking a step back; bad play retention is deserved at this point.

I cant help but agree with this.

Its like people think that DE cant make money unless EVERYTHING is a horrendous grind. Any time you so much as MENTION lessening the grind for anything, all you hear is "this is Warframe" and "DE gotta eat."

With more than 30 normal frames in the game, and half those having Prime versions to boot - not to mention Weapons, Syndicates and their items and mods, etc - Warframe has PLENTY of things to grind for. So many that making 8 or so basic Warframes guaranteed drops from planets wouldnt be an issue at all. 

I'm not necessarily saying make ALL the basic frames guaranteed drops. I should have been more clear about that. But I think some of the major planets could afford to guarantee one. Maybe just enough that players have one of each Archtytpe, in as much as Warframe has those:
 

Rhino: Guaranteed from Mars. Gives new players a Tank.

Nova: Guaranteed from her current planet. Gives new players a CC frame.

Nyx: Guranteed from her current location. Gives players a non-damage, scaling CC guaranteed.

Valkyr/Excalibur guaranteed: Gives all new players a guarantee that they will have a dedicated melee frame.

Loki: Guranteed from her his current planet. Stealth frame.

Frost: Guarantees a Defense oriented frame. 

 

There. Six Guaranteed, non-Prime frames for newer players. Tank, Melee, CC, Stealth and Defense oriented frames. I dont think thats asking alot, not is do I believe for a minute its enough to take dinner off anyone's table.

[Almagnus1]

Quote

Rhino: Guaranteed from Mars. Gives new players a Tank.

Nova: Guaranteed from her current planet. Gives new players a CC frame.

Nyx: Guranteed from her current location. Gives players a non-damage, scaling CC guaranteed.

Valkyr/Excalibur guaranteed: Gives all new players a guarantee that they will have a dedicated melee frame.

Loki: Guranteed from her his current planet. Stealth frame.

Frost: Guarantees a Defense oriented frame. 

That still leaves Hydroid, Mag, Trinity, Ember, Equinox, Saryn, and Mesa unaccounted for, as each one of those are also planet drops (although Mesa could be argued to be a quest drop due to Mutated Salad V being the boss that drops Mesa).  The same is true for Atlas being a drop from the Jordas Golem.

How does your acquisition idea impact those frames?

Edited September 22, 2017 by Almagnus1

[PopGligor]

There are quite a few things to consider:

This is a free game. There needs to be a good value proposition for spending money on it. This is offset by adding time and chance to farming which can be skipped by paying. For me, the farming isn't boring because I just enjoy shooting and slicing enemies. But almost all warframes are sold in the market and their value comes from the effort it would take to farm them. If you had to kill a boss only once to get all the parts for a specific frame, why on earth would anyone buy them in the shop?

The early game should serve as a vetting process. It should be honest about it is. Warframe is a grindfest. It's honest about it, right off the bat when you start it you know what it'll be about. If they change the early drop rates to being such that it takes zero effort to farm whatever you want, it'll attract new players of course, but those would immediately leave when they see the prime farm, or try to farm Nekros (which you get by farming a boss that requires a key each time which has 1 hour crafting time). Those players will feel cheated when they find out they're actually playing a grindfest and that's not what they signed up for. 

With an easier farm, new players may never have to learn how to actually farm, how to look for what they need and how to maximize their efficiency. This may increase their frustration when they're faced with lategame farming. The main goal of early game isn't to attract players. It's to prepare players for the lategame, and in a grindfest you can only prepare your players if you actually tell them they'll have to grind. Kill bosses again and again in hopes of getting the items they want.

I don't buy the benevolent "but if the game was made like I say, it'll attract more players" when Warframe has proved itself to be quite attractive the way it is. This is a very successful game, so the obscure mechanics, the farming, the time it takes to obtain stuff - those obviously work. There's no reason to suggest that if the game was more attractive to people demanding instant gratification (i.e. children) it would've been more successful. 

It's definitely not a perfect system. Especially now when getting some prime frames is much less of a hassle than getting their nerfed versions. Farming Nekros is kind of the least offensive thing (if you solo farm him, you'll have to spend 10-20 hours in crafting the keys alone, and you can't craft bundles). Farming Saryn is a crime. I've never done it. I have Saryn Prime, she's easier to farm. Getting Vauban is the worst. Vauban Prime is immeasurably easier to get. 

However, it's been getting better. Warframes are getting locked behind a quest, with a very small farm on top of it. Every frame we've gotten since and including Inaros has come with a quest. 

So no... I don't think warframes should be easier to access. 

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

On 21/09/2017 at 2:40 PM, xXRampantXx said:

 

As much as I hate to say it, these guys are right.  Warframe is all about grind, and if you don't like the grind, Warframe isn't the game for you.  If someone can't deal with farming Rhino they probably won't even make it halfway through the starmap unless they get help from some generous veteran player giving them stuff.  I won't deny that some aspects of the grind might need fine-tuning, but it won't (and shouldn't) go away.

I tend to disagree. Warframe , just like destiny, is about the great ,well made and near flawless core gameplay.

The grind is the excuse to get you to play thousand of hours instead of , let's say, 100 hours, then moving to something else.

That said, just because heavy grind is the norm doesn't mean it's a mandatory component of the player experience. The game could very well be redesigned to be less grindy, and it would still work. Heck, it would probably help attract new players (although it would also turn away some vets who would feel like they have nothing to do).

That said, it's not vets that farm starchart frames, it's new players... And I'm pretty sure the best way to retain players is not to have them repeat the same boss 25 times in a row because they keep getting a chassis instead of a system. Honestly, a system that checks your inventory and give you actual parts you need instead of stuff you don't need would be a godsend for new players, and would be a welcome change for everyone... Because running the same thing over and over again is not good game design. Reminds me of invasions , why does it have to be the bland , identical missions for a single reward. Just give the reward after a single mission and you'll save people time and effort.

[SpoonyBrad]

On 9/21/2017 at 1:42 PM, MagPrime said:

It would be nice if there was a mechanic that guaranteed to give you the part you're missing after your 12th run or something.

I'd appreciate it greatly if Warframe actually did guarantee drops of stuff like "basic frame components that you don't have" after a certain amount of grinding, although if, as other Tenno have commented, the very concept of grinding puts you off, Warframe is probably not the game for you. The idea is (at least in my book) to grind by doing the stuff you enjoy doing anyway; DE is the same company that co-developed most of the Unreal Tournament/Championship franchise, after all (and it shows), and it's not like those games had a significant grind component. I don't like blowing platinum on unlocking basic frames (not that it's stopped me from doing it once or twice; I'm willing to get my hands dirty sometimes), and some mechanic to actually guarantee "that one last part you've been trying to farm for 2 hours WILL drop this time" would honestly be an improvement in my opinion. Mastering that shiny new frame well enough that you aren't a burden on your team takes rather longer, anyway.

Sure, DE loses the immediate gratification of "players give up and spend platinum to just unlock it", but if they gain player loyalty? A player who gives up around Mercury is, I'd suspect, unlikely to chip in to their coffers much, while one who has hundreds of hours invested in the game is a lot more committed and a lot more likely to toss a few bucks their way (because Fashionframe is the true endgame).

[LuckyCharm]

I disagree with the getting an equipable anything after a boss kill. Now that that's said I do think something needs to be done about the frames that don't have guaranteed drop chances. -glares angrily at  harrow- I wouldn't have a problem if frames had guaranteed part drop on whatever map DE chose to put them on, even if you had the chance for all the parts. Just getting to wave 8 of a mission type you hate only to receive another rubbish reward and having to do the whole thing over again feels bad. 

I happily farmed my equinox solo. Managed to get all the parts over the course of a week, with many many runs and I didn't mind, because at least I was getting extra parts if I did get duplicates that I could use to make another frame later on if I wanted to. Can't do anything with say... another Flow mod. 

Still feel that if people cant stand farming for even the simple frames like Rhino, then they shouldn't be handed things because they whine. Doing hours and hours of runs for stuff like Nidus (i still havent got the systems after all this time. i had to buy him in the end) , Ivara, Harrow... I can understand the frustration.