PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)

[Vulcanist25]

Just now, Aliant_PL said:

MV is OP (if used correctly), we all can agree with that but I feel like DE is overreacting, there is no need for such big changes and nerfing MV to the ground.

Just make that you can't shoot through the wall from inside. Limited height will actually make sense because you still will be able to shoot over the wall.

Multiple enemy types can easily get around her MV by splash damage alone, especially on POE. In a normal mission an enemy needs only spawn inside of her ult. Make it small, splash will get you, too large enemies will be inside of it anyway. Not to mention if they walk up to the wall and put the gun into it, they can shoot through it very easily. 

[Aliant_PL]

7 minutes ago, Akimbo said:

They're not making a second snowglobe. Their 'proposed' changes are making it more like Snowglobe with a nerf that is unwarrented.

They're making it useless. Her ult will become a CC and way to refresh her 2 only.

For me there could be no changes at all. I love Gara in current state but I still see that her ult is op.

3 minutes ago, Vulcanist25 said:

Multiple enemy types can easily get around her MV by splash damage alone, especially on POE. In a normal mission an enemy needs only spawn inside of her ult. Make it small, splash will get you, too large enemies will be inside of it anyway. Not to mention if they walk up to the wall and put the gun into it, they can shoot through it very easily. 

Tell this to DE, not to me.

[AbhijitSM]

This doesn't seem like going in the right way at all. With the initial proposed changes it felt like frost all over again (both duration and health). With the limitations Mass Vitrify has compared to Snowglobe i am not sure why this was proposed at all. Even now Mass vitrify is clunky to use if you want to take advantage of height since you have to bullet jump then wait till it expands & consumes additional energy compared to Snowglobe. Also as many others have pointed out it still does not provide damage protection from above & even though Gara is invulnerable during casting phase the objective/allies are not & enemies also take 3 secs to freeze only once they come in contact within the wall which means enemies at lvl 50+ can easily do a lot of damage to the defense target/ally. Snowglobe doesn't have these limitations since it is an insta cast  with stacking possible & also pushes away all enemies in range & absorbs damage with a 4 sec invul phase which is why it is a way superior defense power.

Also why isn't her 3rd power touched upon at all ? Please don't leave it the way it is till PA for her kit comes out.  

[LEGION346]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

sorry but this honestly made me laugh 😂 

If they can't see any other target they will shoot it ;) 

[iulianWAR]

Change Gara and i swear to GOD Alt+F4 for ever !

[(PSN)EatZombies]

Just now, LEGION346 said:

If they can't see any other target they will shoot it ;) 

Good luck getting a full team most of the time that tries to stay invisible with you. Unless you use a team of people who know what to do beforehand (lets face it, not everyone grabs a dedicated team every time they play), chances are you'll find people who ignore it and do their own thing which throws the whole " Can't See Will Attack" situation into the space toilet 😊

I'm sure you've run into situations where even if you're invisible, they don't attack it. If not, either you haven't played her enough or you're lucky as F***. It definitely needs a slight tweak to increase the enemy agro even if a very small amount.

[LEGION346]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

Good luck getting a full team most of the time that tries to stay invisible with you. Unless you use a team of people who know what to do beforehand (lets face it, not everyone grabs a dedicated team every time they play), chances are you'll find people who ignore it and do their own thing which throws the whole " Can't See Will Attack" situation into the space toilet 😊

I'm sure you've run into situations where even if you're invisible, they don't attack it. If not, either you haven't played her enough or you're lucky as F***. It definitely needs a slight tweak to increase the enemy agro even if a very small amount.

I pick Octavia for long runs with friends only. So we are slightly coordinated :P

Not always things go perfect, but smoothly, sure. But lets come back to the topic of Gara, her nerf and why it is bad idea. 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

6 hours ago, Vinterra said:

Great changes, I was ok with the old version but to be honest it was little bit too easy.

Enemies shouldn't be completely helpless and it makes absolutely sense they are able to break glass :-)

No it is not. Not at all. If it was too easy for you, maybe you should be moving out of the star chart and play some levels with difficulty. Go on an endurance run, and see if it's too easy. 

Enemies were not helpless. Grineer can throw grenades over, napalm can shoot aoe through, and a heavy gunner can stick her gun through the glass and hit you. Nullifiers, combas/scrambus destroy the glass shield just by being in the vicinity, corpus have grenades to lob over, and flying enemies could fly over.

If you had to change anything about Mass Vitrify, prevent the mid-air casts, stop pretending things are too powerful just because your competition is too low, or because of a weird mechanic.

[Aliant_PL]

This whole situation looks like changes in Frost's Snowglobe, only this time those changes aren't needed.

Maybe MV has complete invurnerabilty to dmg but enemies can easily get around this by using aoe attacks, movement or bugs.

[SanguineSavant]

Going to be honest, I'm only concerned about Focus 2.5 at the moment but coolios nonetheless.

[demazju]

2 hours ago, Akimbo said:

I've played Gara almost exclusively since her release and I've got to say I'm very disappointed in this decision.

Was her glass shield overpowered?

Yes - but only vs the enemies who couldn't circumvent it entirely anyway, whether by shooting through it (glitching gun barrels / punchthrough), pulling through it, hitting through it with AoE etc.

Now we have an Ultimate which is seemingly being balanced vs Frost Globe in a direct comparison. Except Frost Globe is a T3 ability and Mass Vitrify is T4.

I'd really rather not see time wasted with "as it takes damage parts of it break" rubbish. If one section is being hit enough to break, then you're not going to leave the glass-shield up, because it's now got a bloody great hole on the side you're being attacked from anyway. So you'd recast it to remove that weak/open section. So PLEASE don't waste time on this mechanic.

Now we're going to end up with an Ultimate ability whose only purpose is to fuel Gara's #2 ability as it's worth as a wall will be greatly reduced. Health AND Duration? Do you even play Gara (or WF for that matter)? How did the idea to have both drawbacks applied to an ultimate ever make it past the first 10 minutes of a meeting about this ability? Why was Gara released if you thought that her ult was overpowered, or was she just not tested enough?

What needs to be done on this route:

• No DURATION
• Do NOT mess with how it's cast. Air casting is a sound tactical use - if you want to change anything, just make it 30ft tall to begin with so we don't NEED to air cast. This really is a moot point though. This is not the problem with this ability.
• Scale like Frosts Globe but ALSO be invulnerable/absorb damage during the first 4 seconds of it being hardened as with Frost Globe as well
• Maybe have the duration be a function of that invulnerability. So a 30 second globe might have 15 seconds of invulnerability once cast. Once that duration is over the ability remains but is only now subject to health.
• Solve the problem that Gara cannot recast/stack Mass Vitrify like Frost can with his Globe
• Solve the identity crisis of Gara's wall - If you're nerfing it because it made Frost Obsolete, rework the ability entirely as if you make it worse than Frost globe simply because "Frost is globe / defence guy"  then Gara's ability needs a unique identity to stop that comparison.
• Increase Gara's base armour from 150 to 300
• When destroyed by the enemy or recast it does the AoE damage as if destroyed by Gara's #1
• Fix the bugs that let enemies exploit their way past the barrier in the first place
• Limit the drop points in PoE so that enemies can't circumvent the frame that came with PoE entirely by simply dropping over it from aircraft
• Remove nullifiers from the game

 

This 👌👌.. I've been playing her almost exclusively(about 90%) too since her release since I was one of the lucky ones who got her pretty quick <15 runs.  Now this whole idea is saddening to say the least, she made me confident about soloing alot of missions and being quite useful during sorties.  

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

1 hour ago, demazju said:

This 👌👌.. I've been playing her almost exclusively(about 90%) too since her release since I was one of the lucky ones who got her pretty quick <15 runs.  Now this whole idea is saddening to say the least, she made me confident about soloing alot of missions and being quite useful during sorties.  

Same for me. "Wow Gara might be the coolest and most fun frame I've ever played since the release of chroma!"

DE: "Nerf"

[tnccs215]

On 04/12/2017 at 6:53 PM, [DE]Aidan said:

 Power design is a reciprocal process and we simply can’t account for every possible combination of mods, situational use, and play styles in our designs, that is why we are so fortunate to have a dedicated and cooperative community to offer feedback to collaborate with. Once these changes go live, have at ‘em and bring us your thoughts. 

With all due respect, but I have to context a lot of the claims here. And I apologize if I sound rude in anyway, but as someone who loves this game possibly more than one should, legitimate criticism towards statements such as this should be made. And, of course, this is nothing directed to you personally. Rather, it is directed to what you are representing. 

First: you can very well account for all mod combinations. Even if you can't effectively account it for all possible ones, the fact that I and many others can, without actually touch the frame, accurately predict the most effective build to a frame as soon as information about their abilities lands the wiki is a proof of that. 

Mods aren't made equal. There are mods that are useful and mods that aren't. Even corrupted mods, with their downsides and rank differences, can very well have only their Rank 5 and 10 accounted without loosing much information.

If we can predict optimal mod setups, so can you. 

But this is mostly a caveat. Even if, be it in theory or in practice, you could not accurately predict the usage a frame gets and how they get it, you always have the community feedback to base your adjustments on - as you yourself said. 

And that's the issue: the amount of times the community input is downright ignored is appalling. 

Yes, I completely understand that some desires and opinions must be ignored, either because they are next to nonsensical, or because they don't fit the vision you have for the game. Yes, the community is awfully schizophrenic with their opinions, and there's such a ridiculous amount of them the point of contradiction and almost unbearableness. But there are very clearly better ideas and opinions than others, and more popular ideas and opinions than others. 

And yet, these are constantly ignored all the same. People have repeatedly criticized the outstanding uselessness of Spectrorage - yet you haven't even vaguely addressed it (not as far as what I know). It has been one of the rare points of agreement in the community, that at the very best of cases it only serves to do what Mass Vitrify does much better (even with the incoming changes) - and that is only at lower levels where that utility is nigh irrelevant. At higher, the ability is downright useless. Are you considering to buff it? Will you leave it as is? 

And this is repeated ad infinitum with other frames. Few are those satisfied with Bladestorm's rework. Mag's massive energy issues, Crush's irrelevance and Polarize's utter lack of scaling - not to speak of her reliance on augments - have become so staple to the point of being memes. Zephyr has enough rework threads to warrant a book publication. Valkyr's outdated kit is carried exclusively by an augment and a "press 4 to easy mode" ability. Equinox's arguable balance is reduced to having her stupidly powerful abilities "compensated" by nigh useless ones, and the fact her powers deactivate on metamorphosis rob her of the fluidity that Warframe's combat demands. And Wukong is goddamn Wukong!

And despite the ever present community input, these issues are largely ignored. 

In no way do I want to devalue the fact that you do, sometimes, address them. Hell you are doing so right now with volt. But after how much time? After how many months or even years of silence? And when you do, how many times are the issues effectively addressed, without leaving issues of their own? 

And this is only talking about warframes - not mentioning enemy balance, weapons, resources, costs, and what else. 

If frame tuning is a reciprocal process, it seems to only be engaged with a rarity too faint for how needed it is. 

[(XBOX)ClingyBark9]

To be honest that was gara's only useful ability for high level play. For the amount of grinding I had to do, the reward of her 4 being how it is now is very acceptable. Now her 4 will be useless, and the she will not be played. It already had a weakness. Its very obvious that her shield doesn't have a roof. Instead of making health based, make enemies have to jump over it in a timely manner or climb it. The taller it is the more time it takes enemies to climb it. They will eventually get froze and its up to the players to kill them

[(PSN)Crixus044]

@tnccs215 Agreed 100%, and I've said this too many times before.

@[DE]Aidan What the design council needs is a balancer. Someone who can forsee mechanics, make builds, and can connect the dots to push a frame to their highest potential. If you would've had a balancer from when you made Valkyr's Hysteria Energy Drain based back in U17.5, maybe she wouldn't have been so overpowered, with an energy drain of .63 energy per second and 100k damage per strike, with a 5 strike slide attack, stealth bonus for 8x that damage, and invulnerability as well as increases parkour movements.Same goes for naramon shadow step. We all saw it coming from the beginning, at least a few did. How about Miragulor? Remember Limbomb, when cataclysm would detonate, dealing an unmodded 10% of all the enemy's health in it as damage, nuking rooms effortlessly? You need a balancer to test this through before releasing it so that you don't have these problems in the future, like a beta tester. Youtubers that actually know what they're talking about, endurance runners and theorycrafts like myself and a few other players I know, and streamers that know what they're talking about, all can easily test things before release making sure everything is in balancing order. It's obvious that the team you have currently needs someone good at connecting the dots and who knows how to build or theorycraft.

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

@tnccs215 Agreed 100%, and I've said this too many times before.

@[DE]Aidan What the design council needs is a balancer. Someone who can forsee mechanics, make builds, and can connect the dots to push a frame to their highest potential. If you would've had a balancer from when you made Valkyr's Hysteria Energy Drain based back in U17.5, maybe she wouldn't have been so overpowered, with an energy drain of .63 energy per second and 100k damage per strike, with a 5 strike slide attack, stealth bonus for 8x that damage, and invulnerability as well as increases parkour movements.Same goes for naramon shadow step. We all saw it coming from the beginning, at least a few did. How about Miragulor? Remember Limbomb, when cataclysm would detonate, dealing an unmodded 10% of all the enemy's health in it as damage, nuking rooms effortlessly? You need a balancer to test this through before releasing it so that you don't have these problems in the future, like a beta tester. Youtubers that actually know what they're talking about, endurance runners and theorycrafts like myself and a few other players I know, and streamers that know what they're talking about, all can easily test things before release making sure everything is in balancing order. It's obvious that the team you have currently needs someone good at connecting the dots and who knows how to build or theorycraft.

And they need a dedicated team focused on nothing but gameplay balancing passes. A team that draws the line that defines the player-to-environment power ratio and expected progression, and ensures everything in the game sticks to it. 

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

@tnccs215 Agreed 100%, and I've said this too many times before.

@[DE]Aidan What the design council needs is a balancer. Someone who can forsee mechanics, make builds, and can connect the dots to push a frame to their highest potential. If you would've had a balancer from when you made Valkyr's Hysteria Energy Drain based back in U17.5, maybe she wouldn't have been so overpowered, with an energy drain of .63 energy per second and 100k damage per strike, with a 5 strike slide attack, stealth bonus for 8x that damage, and invulnerability as well as increases parkour movements.Same goes for naramon shadow step. We all saw it coming from the beginning, at least a few did. How about Miragulor? Remember Limbomb, when cataclysm would detonate, dealing an unmodded 10% of all the enemy's health in it as damage, nuking rooms effortlessly? You need a balancer to test this through before releasing it so that you don't have these problems in the future, like a beta tester. Youtubers that actually know what they're talking about, endurance runners and theorycrafts like myself and a few other players I know, and streamers that know what they're talking about, all can easily test things before release making sure everything is in balancing order. It's obvious that the team you have currently needs someone good at connecting the dots and who knows how to build or theorycraft.

Agreed. I am also sure that people like us would be more then happy to test it out for them.

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

Agreed. I am also sure that people like us would be more then happy to test it out for them.

Right? Me and my friends call it "science" doing crazy builds and trying to push limits or just see "hmm what would happen if." 

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

Just now, (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

Right? Me and my friends call it "science" doing crazy builds and trying to push limits or just see "hmm what would happen if." 

I specialize trying to see if I can glitch the game myself. It is always fun seeing if I can due to the effort and payoff. Making crazy builds is fun too though.

[Cicasajt]

i just want volt to have more armor. like double or so

[Ventura_Highway]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

You need a balancer to test this through before releasing it so that you don't have these problems in the future, like a beta tester.

I would personally also have the ideas thoroughly critically evaluated before time is spent implementing them into the game.

Make the idea, evaluate it, then if the mechanic or ability is judged as good, then write it into the game. Beta test it then, ensure necessary tweaks are made, then if nothing else can be done, the change or mechanic can now be incorporated into the game.

What I'm trying to avoid are situations like the eximi crystal situation. Behavior gets written into the game, people hate it so much that DE decides not to incorporate it, etc etc. Time is wasted ultimately.

But, I think incorporating feedback from experienced players would mean a lot. Also, I am not sure if this was done significantly before, but I also appreciate the partial explanation of the rationale behind these changes expressed by DE here.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

Right? Me and my friends call it "science" doing crazy builds and trying to push limits or just see "hmm what would happen if." 

1 minute ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

I specialize trying to see if I can glitch the game myself. It is always fun seeing if I can due to the effort and payoff. Making crazy builds is fun too though.

Exactly what I do on the daily. I have notes that are 50 pages thick with builds, tips, tricks, etc. all about warframe. I have written 3 papers which are practically 3 thesis about warframe and special combos I do. I am very good at connecting the dots when it comes to mechanics, such as using magazine mods on the pandero (since the alt fire releases the entire magat once), Nukor with Harrow (since additive crit affects low crit weapons better than high crit), Boltor Prime crit damage/hunter munitions build with harrow that will beat out the Soma Prime (same reason), or even a simple excalibur build chromatic blade for pure heat with an accelerant ember on the team.

[Colyeses]

How about instead of working 24/7 to decapitate any warframe ability that makes life easier, you spend at least -a little bit- of time to make offensive warframe abilities reasonably compete with weaponry?

[(XBOX)PhilfyRatBagZ]

My suggestions: Change her to a DPS frame with CC

Power 1: Cost 25, Fine as is.

Power 2: Cost 50, Fine as is

Power 3: Cost 75, Make the AoE a constant slash damage that can scale to enemy caught in it (duration based)

Power 4: Cost 75, Keep all the effects of it's cast (and the refresh of P2) but remove the wall at end of cast making it a CC ability not defensive. Keep the effects of P1 on effected enemies and bonus to P2, but make the height of the expanding wall (both below and above the player's feet 3x bigger or even like Nova's P4) Effect duration is affected by ability duration including crystallization time. Slows bosses but are NOT crystallized.

 

This fixes the broken wall debate with a little change

or

How about you fix her 4th so it works as intended before you consider hitting it with the nerf hammer?

 

edit: grammer

[(XBOX)CKazz]

On 12/4/2017 at 3:19 PM, VocalMagic said:

...Is it too late to ask to return my 30'd Gara for a refund?

I'd like to know that, I just bought for plat and we're already nerfing her in ridiculous fashion?  I bought her as a comparable option to the Frost and Frost Prime I have, providing some different things (better one spot coverage, no option for 4 spot or 'no duration' coverage).

Really feels like bait and switch, I go and applaud design (this looks fun, I will play, I will pay some $$) oh no wait, will inevitably be a 2nd class defensive frame to Frost with proposes changes (thanks for the spare change sucker).

For consoles in particular, I barely had her to play that long and she hardly breaks anything (could still Frost stack, Limbo freeze, Vauban, Banshee, Nova, add/bring in other hard CC effects).

Many other games allow some kind of back out when the developer nerfs something hard real money has been spent on, especially when it happens.  And again with it happening so soon it certainly feels like intentional bait and switch.  Certainly takes the winds out of the sails in getting back into this game and spending a growing amount of plat.