Damage 2.5 topic misleading about slash changes, which WILL be a nerf

[Hyohakusha]

 

First Part:
Slash will continue working as it does now, stacking multiple status effects on top of one another.

Second part:
We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted.


It is not staying the way it was, so that's a lie, and while Atterax and Galatine will still be ridiculous, every weapon that uses/ forces slash procs off of a small amount of slash gets nerfed. So ridiculous weapons like ^ stay ridiculous and weapons we've actually put effort into working unique builds on are worthless.

In addition, this will straight up ruin MANY stances for weapons in the game, as many stances have automatic slash procs, but that doesn't mean the weapon they go to has any base slash damage. Elemental weapons like Silva and Aegis Prime, Jat Kusar, Lacera, Dark Split Sword, Rapiers in general, and guns that rely on slash procs to kill effectively, like those Soma's Primes everyone seems to enjoy so much, will ALL be nerfed. You will use certain combos on melee weapons, and the stance will force a slash proc, and that proc will read "0".

Then there's Hunter Munitions, an extremely well designed mod that uses mechanics over numbers to provide a legitimate feature that lets you dust off all those one-off crit weapons just to see how it works on them. Pick up your Stradavar and actually be able to kill something with it, not because of some crazy RNG luck off of a riven, but because you crit built it with the proper elements and a mod that can do something no riven can. After the change, a bunch of guns that were just sitting in our orbiters go right back into whatever dimension our arsenal stores them in, to rot as nothing more than trophies.

Meanwhile, Atterax, Galatine Prime, Nikana Prime and Tigris Prime will still be the go-to for people looking for meta power, so these changes wont accomplish anything in that regard.

There's an extremely simple way to avoid rendering many stance mechanics worthless, not do anything to incentivize weapon experimentation, and render a lot of builds the player base has been working on, either over the years or recently, completely worthless.

DE, you guys got slash right. This same problem happens over and over. Something is done right, and then ruined for absolutely no reason in an attempt to "fix" or "balance" other aspects of the game. Zenurik as a school was fine after the rework, then it got an arbitrary energy drain on the lightning orb, which reduces the total number of dashes you can do by 2, despite the fact that you had to spend a few million points of focus just to unbind those dashes in the first place. Now I never see anyone using lightning with their energy bubble, and I know exactly why. Nerfing something to try and incentivize players to experiment with new mechanics is not a good idea, and while the zenurik lightning may be a small aspect of the game overall, that was obviously the intention, and I and the vast majority of players still only use zenurik, and the orb is still turned off. If it works, it doesn't need to be fixed, or changed, or tweaked, and just because you happen to be altering some things in a certain set of files, doesn't mean you need to change everything.

This is very simple.
- Buff Impact like you say you're going to
- Buff Puncture like you say you're going to
- Leave slash. That's it. Just don't do anything to it

That way we have two new damage types to build for and experiment with, along with one we know works, a few hundred stance mods won't need to be looked at, something might actually beat the Tigris Prime's damage with utility, and Hunter Munition's, a mod which, unlike rivens, actually DID breathe some new like into old weapons, will continue to do so. 

And please try not to say that something is going to work the way it has been at the start of a paragraph, then slip in a line about it changing after a hyphen later.

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

Firstly, it wasn't misleading, they simple said that the proc itself will be staying the exact same, which it is. Just now it is distributed differently based on how much slash is on the weapon. There could be a fairly simple fix, which would be to let the 120% slash mods effects weapons the same way that elemental mods do.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Ya need to drop the PSA tag, it's for DE staff only.

[Duduminador]

Slash nerf... OP makes it sound like a bad thing.

 

 

It's fascinating that people consider Hunter Munitions a blessing...

Average mentality of Warframe user: Cheese x Cheese = well designed 
What is next? Primed Hunter Munitions?

Edited December 19, 2017 by Duduminador

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, Duduminador said:

Slash nerf... OP makes it sound like a bad thing.

It is while the armor scaling on enemies doesn't have anything done to it... as I've said may times, you can't balance our weapons/frames etc until you balance the enemies we're fighting. 

What DE 'should' be doing is fixing enemies first, then fix our side of things, it would make their life so much easier when they try and balance things... but that obviously isn't logical to DE...

[(PSN)lhbuch]

the damage rework should be much deeper. It needed to address enemy scalling, making impact and punture REALLY better, some elemental procs are also subpar etc...

[BL4CKN0ISE]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

Firstly, it wasn't misleading, they simple said that the proc itself will be staying the exact same, which it is. Just now it is distributed differently based on how much slash is on the weapon. There could be a fairly simple fix, which would be to let the 120% slash mods effects weapons the same way that elemental mods do.

That's exactly why it's misleading. Telling us it works the same when it doesn't work the same IS misleading. I know what you mean, but it's exactly what people thought would happen to slash. It's arguing mechanics over actual in-game usage and value. Just because slash "works the same" doesn't mean it will work the same, especially considering it literally won't work on certain builds anymore. So it's completely different. 

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Duduminador said:

Slash nerf... OP makes it sound like a bad thing.

 

  Hide contents

It's fascinating that people consider Hunter Munitions a blessing...

Average mentality of Warframe user: Cheese x Cheese = well designed 
What is next? Primed Hunter Munitions?

Are you really trying to say that in a game where enemies can reach 99% damage reduction via armor and get x10 health at high levels its not good that we have a way to atleast remove armor from this calculation?

It is a bad thing! The ridicolous scaling we have here not only pushes basic foddermobs into mini-boss territory but also grants them damage soo high in every other game it would be considered gamebreaking bug or glitch.

[TolaShamgar]

I say do away with every nerf and make higher level endgame maps for those who ACTUALLY run higher level things instead of those who spend 600+ plat on an opticor riven just to be bale to chroma an eid cap or 'speedcheese' a sortie

[Duduminador]

12 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Are you really trying to say that in a game where enemies can reach 99% damage reduction via armor and get x10 health at high levels its not good that we have a way to atleast remove armor from this calculation?

It is a bad thing! The ridicolous scaling we have here not only pushes basic foddermobs into mini-boss territory but also grants them damage soo high in every other game it would be considered gamebreaking bug or glitch.

Are you really trying to say that there is a game out there, where player's damage scales anywhere near as ridiculously as in Warframe?

base damage x base damage mods x elemental damage x mob damage weakness x critical chance x crt.damage x red critical x body part multiplier x ticks per second x ability buff x probably more I'm forgetting atm.

Yes, you are right. The scaling is ridiculous. Player damage scaling is ridiculous.

As for the mobs, there's this thing about enemy scaling... it's supposed to overcome you at some point. That's supposed to happen soon or later rather than never. There are also a handful of ways to disregard mob armor.  Or just... instakill mobs regardless of how high their health and armor can get.

Is this when you pull the "it's a hoard game!" card?

 

It's actualy quite funny because... hoard games are only easy early on. At least all the nes I've played usually have a set of endgame missions where you need to beat a cluster of damage sponges where every single hit kills you.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Duduminador

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Duduminador said:

Are you really trying to say that there is a game out there, where player's damage scales anywhere near as ridiculously as in Warframe?

On top of my head i only know 3 games where the player damage scaling can be extremely absurd.

The borderlands series where powerlevelling with a little patience can render the whole game into an idle murder simulator, the wicher 3 what has a levelling system what makes the game trivial if you invest enough in minmaxing builds and finally disgaea 2 what is a jrpg so it will feature impossible attack numbers what are especially good if you are backtracking a bit and dont want to spend more time on an area than a couple seconds.

2 hours ago, Duduminador said:

As for the mobs, there's this thing about enemy scaling... it's supposed to overcome you at some point. That's supposed to happen soon or later rather than never. There are also a handful of ways to disregard mob armor.  Or just... instakill mobs regardless of how high their health and armor can get.

It is supposed to do that, the only problem its trying it too fast. I guess you never really dig into why is our scaling is problematic. A long ago when we got "who remembers" which update DE has decided that the lv100 enemies from now on are lv40 and started to apply the scaling from then.

What was before a logical slow increase in enemy difficulty become a steep jump upwards what creates monsters out from fodder mobs at lv100 what is still in the general gameplay experience.

To overcome this players have used up what DE provided them, builds for endless CC and insta/hardkill capatibilities.

You just cant go around and say the scaling is fine we should nerf the damage, thats what causes the problem.

2 hours ago, Duduminador said:

base damage x base damage mods x elemental damage x mob damage weakness x critical chance x crt.damage x red critical x body part multiplier x ticks per second x ability buff x probably more I'm forgetting atm.

Yes, you are right. The scaling is ridiculous. Player damage scaling is ridiculous.

You think this is ridiculous but not the fact that your avarage charger deals 22 damage at lv1 and 440 at lv100? 

Thats x20 damage increase!

With the basic (as no mods) snipetron it takes 3-4 shots to take down one at lv20 at level 100 it takes 24 shots.

Their health increased to atleast x6!

And this thing is a fodder mob for baro's sake!

The moment when DE finally fixes this madness i will be the first one to call in damage balance but not before that!

2 hours ago, Duduminador said:

Is this when you pull the "it's a hoard game!" card?

I could pull it but theres no need where we have facts backing up that the enemies are much more dangerous than needed and are direct causes for the player damage scaling what you find soo ridicolous.

[holepuncher360]

On 12/19/2017 at 9:21 AM, Hyohakusha said:

 

First Part:
Slash will continue working as it does now, stacking multiple status effects on top of one another.

Second part:
We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted.


It is not staying the way it was, so that's a lie, and while Atterax and Galatine will still be ridiculous, every weapon that uses/ forces slash procs off of a small amount of slash gets nerfed. So ridiculous weapons like ^ stay ridiculous and weapons we've actually put effort into working unique builds on are worthless.

In addition, this will straight up ruin MANY stances for weapons in the game, as many stances have automatic slash procs, but that doesn't mean the weapon they go to has any base slash damage. Elemental weapons like Silva and Aegis Prime, Jat Kusar, Lacera, Dark Split Sword, Rapiers in general, and guns that rely on slash procs to kill effectively, like those Soma's Primes everyone seems to enjoy so much, will ALL be nerfed. You will use certain combos on melee weapons, and the stance will force a slash proc, and that proc will read "0".

Then there's Hunter Munitions, an extremely well designed mod that uses mechanics over numbers to provide a legitimate feature that lets you dust off all those one-off crit weapons just to see how it works on them. Pick up your Stradavar and actually be able to kill something with it, not because of some crazy RNG luck off of a riven, but because you crit built it with the proper elements and a mod that can do something no riven can. After the change, a bunch of guns that were just sitting in our orbiters go right back into whatever dimension our arsenal stores them in, to rot as nothing more than trophies.

Meanwhile, Atterax, Galatine Prime, Nikana Prime and Tigris Prime will still be the go-to for people looking for meta power, so these changes wont accomplish anything in that regard.

There's an extremely simple way to avoid rendering many stance mechanics worthless, not do anything to incentivize weapon experimentation, and render a lot of builds the player base has been working on, either over the years or recently, completely worthless.

DE, you guys got slash right. This same problem happens over and over. Something is done right, and then ruined for absolutely no reason in an attempt to "fix" or "balance" other aspects of the game. Zenurik as a school was fine after the rework, then it got an arbitrary energy drain on the lightning orb, which reduces the total number of dashes you can do by 2, despite the fact that you had to spend a few million points of focus just to unbind those dashes in the first place. Now I never see anyone using lightning with their energy bubble, and I know exactly why. Nerfing something to try and incentivize players to experiment with new mechanics is not a good idea, and while the zenurik lightning may be a small aspect of the game overall, that was obviously the intention, and I and the vast majority of players still only use zenurik, and the orb is still turned off. If it works, it doesn't need to be fixed, or changed, or tweaked, and just because you happen to be altering some things in a certain set of files, doesn't mean you need to change everything.

This is very simple.
- Buff Impact like you say you're going to
- Buff Puncture like you say you're going to
- Leave slash. That's it. Just don't do anything to it

That way we have two new damage types to build for and experiment with, along with one we know works, a few hundred stance mods won't need to be looked at, something might actually beat the Tigris Prime's damage with utility, and Hunter Munition's, a mod which, unlike rivens, actually DID breathe some new like into old weapons, will continue to do so. 

And please try not to say that something is going to work the way it has been at the start of a paragraph, then slip in a line about it changing after a hyphen later.

So, the tigris sux now?

[Loswaith]

On 12/20/2017 at 2:51 AM, LSG501 said:

It is while the armor scaling on enemies doesn't have anything done to it... as I've said may times, you can't balance our weapons/frames etc until you balance the enemies we're fighting. 

What DE 'should' be doing is fixing enemies first, then fix our side of things, it would make their life so much easier when they try and balance things... but that obviously isn't logical to DE...

 

On 12/20/2017 at 4:23 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

Are you really trying to say that in a game where enemies can reach 99% damage reduction via armor and get x10 health at high levels its not good that we have a way to atleast remove armor from this calculation?

It is a bad thing! The ridicolous scaling we have here not only pushes basic foddermobs into mini-boss territory but also grants them damage soo high in every other game it would be considered gamebreaking bug or glitch.

The problem is that while players can easily overcome the armour scaling with a minority of gear there is no reason to actually fix those enemies for the majority of gear.  The only way to fix it all, is to start somewhere.

The simplest place to start is with the numbers on the players. Get those to a point where they are somewhat balanced compared to each other (we dont need super strict balance for PvE but vast canyons of difference isn't good either) then you can adjust the much larger milestone that is the enemies to fit within that player scale.  If the vast variance on the players side is not first done, there is no place to look to see how enemies should scale for players on the whole. 

After all the players (thus Warframes and weapons) are the cornerstone of the game, while enemies are there to challenge the players.

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, Loswaith said:

 

The problem is that while players can easily overcome the armour scaling with a minority of gear there is no reason to actually fix those enemies for the majority of gear.  The only way to fix it all, is to start somewhere.

The simplest place to start is with the numbers on the players. Get those to a point where they are somewhat balanced compared to each other (we dont need super strict balance for PvE but vast canyons of difference isn't good either) then you can adjust the much larger milestone that is the enemies to fit within that player scale.  If the vast variance on the players side is not first done, there is no place to look to see how enemies should scale for players on the whole. 

After all the players (thus Warframes and weapons) are the cornerstone of the game, while enemies are there to challenge the players.

Its a lot easier to fix a core issue first than trying to fix things to work around the core issue.  As I've said elsewhere, if you don't balance the things we're attacking then you'll never be able to fully balance our weaponry etc and we'll keep getting situations where things are either overpowered or MR fodder.

The fact we need to use things like corrosive projection just to overcome armour should be enough to say there is an issue with armour scaling.  We basically build around 1 (there is another meta using another mod but can't remember it) aura in most cases kind of defeats the point in the other aura's wouldn't you say. 

[ShortCat]

il y a 17 minutes, LSG501 a dit :

Its a lot easier to fix a core issue first than trying to fix things to work around the core issue.

The core issue is damage 2.0, not armor. Armor only affects 1.5 factions, so that you don't have to build everything in your arsenal around it. Furthermore there are a lot of ways to quickly strip it besides Corrosive Projection.

If DE decides to rebalance something in the game, armor is not the starting point, because:

• The wto points I mentioned earlier
• What should be a balancing point of armor in the first place? - Damage. How can they balance armor around something that is inherently uneven?

On topic:

Le 19.12.2017 à 16:21, Hyohakusha a dit :

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted.

This change implies that Slash mods like Jagged Edge or Buzzkill will affect your Bleed procs with the change, right now they don't do that. Should this be the case, a lot of weapons will get even deadlier Slashmonster than they are now.

Edited December 25, 2017 by ShortCat

[Xzorn]

I've been weary of the changes every since they said "The Damage that you do"  the first time they talked about the IPS changes.

Slash has never been about the damage that you do and while this could have been a slip. It's very likely that armor will be taken into consideration after these changes. After all. DE has been pushing armor on enemies very heavily while also using damage gates so it shouldn't really come as a surprised that Slash might get nerfed.

 

On 12/19/2017 at 10:21 AM, Hyohakusha said:

- before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted

^^ You'll notice on the 2nd part of this they don't state base damage again, they say damage type inflicted.  Those are two very different things.

 

DE stated they're intent was to "Change the meta" and  "Status types needed to be reeled in". The reality is the only way they could change the meta or make Impact / Puncture competitive with Slash is to nerf Slash into the ground or completely change what Impact and Puncture status effects do. Since the later is not their intent; the former must be true.

The end result of this change is that either the meta will not change or armor strip via Aura/Abilities will be the new meta and I say that because if they cause Slash to be mitigated by armor then I'd bet plat Corrosive is next on the list. It could be speculation but it's all direct quotes and if that's not their intent then DE needs to be more clear with their explanations. After all, it's their damage system and a player shouldn't be pointing out a lack of discrepancy in their words.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

The core issue is damage 2.0, not armor. Armor only affects 1.5 factions, so that you don't have to build everything in your arsenal around it. Furthermore there are a lot of ways to quickly strip it besides Corrosive Projection.

If DE decides to rebalance something in the game, armor is not the starting point, because:

• The wto points I mentioned earlier
• What should be a balancing point of armor in the first place? - Damage. How can they balance armor around something that is inherently uneven?

 

And a major problem of damage 2.0 is the enemy armour scaling....it's why A LOT of us keep complaining about it or use things like slash to bypass it....  none of the proposed changes seem to be changing that aspect either.  

Corpus have their own issues, for a lot of us it's the sappers (often too many plus their orbs damage scales up too quickly) and nullifiers (which do still have problems even after their drone).  Infested well, they're the easiest ones of the lot except the ancients when there's a lot of them buffing each other. 

You can not balance weapons/abilities for all levels of enemies when the scaling of the enemies is the most broken part.... if you can't see that then carry on thinking DE's approach is right but many of us can see it's not.   

Edited December 25, 2017 by LSG501

[DrBorris]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 3:56 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

I could pull it but theres no need where we have facts backing up that the enemies are much more dangerous than needed and are direct causes for the player damage scaling what you find soo ridicolous.

Ya see, while I disagree about those games having absurd scaling (as Borderlands and Witcher have enemies that scale with you, and Borderlands has the genius of tied exponential scaling (something that would never work in Warframe), and both of which still challenge you to a degree at any level), I can give it some merit because if you really want to you can over-level in those games (despite both actively discouraging it through diminished exp gains).

However this... this is BS.

 

Once upon a time level 30 was the "end-game" of Warframe. Level. 30. enemies. Now, which one of us do you think changed first, the level 30 Heavy Gunner, or us? 

Once upon a time a weapon was good if it could kill level 30 enemies. Then it became 50. Then Raids set the standard at 80. And now a weapon is apparently sh!t if it can't kill a level 150 Corrupted Bombard in a reasonable time. The enemy scaling never changed, we did. 

 

Just... no, power-creep has destroyed damage in Warframe. Not because power-creep is inherently the worst thing but because Damage 2.0 was balanced around having us deal a lot less damage (as is the way of polynomially scaling enemies). The curve of enemy scaling is reasonable in the 1-60 range, it is after that that everything falls apart. And it was us that pushed it there, our damage increased so that those level 60 enemies became canon fodder.

Players caused the damage system to be unbalanced, let's get that straight. 

 

And I know this does not make any point better, but to call this a straight slash "nerf" is not exactly accurate. It will actually act as a buff to those high slash meta weapons due to slash physical mods being able to increase the damage of slash procs. So yeah, Atterax will not only remain king, it will have its throne reinforced. 

[Nez-Kal]

On 12/19/2017 at 9:48 AM, Duduminador said:

What is next? Primed Hunter Munitions?

Don't be silly........it'll be Primed Split Chamber for sure. xD (+140% Multishot)

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, Loswaith said:

The problem is that while players can easily overcome the armour scaling with a minority of gear there is no reason to actually fix those enemies for the majority of gear.  The only way to fix it all, is to start somewhere.

The simplest place to start is with the numbers on the players. Get those to a point where they are somewhat balanced compared to each other (we dont need super strict balance for PvE but vast canyons of difference isn't good either) then you can adjust the much larger milestone that is the enemies to fit within that player scale.  If the vast variance on the players side is not first done, there is no place to look to see how enemies should scale for players on the whole. 

After all the players (thus Warframes and weapons) are the cornerstone of the game, while enemies are there to challenge the players.

Knowing how fast DE works on crucial updates i say the best would be to fix the scaling first then fix the player damage, that way we are not gonna stuck with a sceniario where we shoot literal tanks with potato canons.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

Ya see, while I disagree about those games having absurd scaling (as Borderlands and Witcher have enemies that scale with you, and Borderlands has the genius of tied exponential scaling (something that would never work in Warframe), and both of which still challenge you to a degree at any level), I can give it some merit because if you really want to you can over-level in those games (despite both actively discouraging it through diminished exp gains).

However this... this is BS.

 

Once upon a time level 30 was the "end-game" of Warframe. Level. 30. enemies. Now, which one of us do you think changed first, the level 30 Heavy Gunner, or us? 

Once upon a time a weapon was good if it could kill level 30 enemies. Then it became 50. Then Raids set the standard at 80. And now a weapon is apparently sh!t if it can't kill a level 150 Corrupted Bombard in a reasonable time. The enemy scaling never changed, we did. 

 

Just... no, power-creep has destroyed damage in Warframe. Not because power-creep is inherently the worst thing but because Damage 2.0 was balanced around having us deal a lot less damage (as is the way of polynomially scaling enemies). The curve of enemy scaling is reasonable in the 1-60 range, it is after that that everything falls apart. And it was us that pushed it there, our damage increased so that those level 60 enemies became canon fodder.

Players caused the damage system to be unbalanced, let's get that straight. 

 

And I know this does not make any point better, but to call this a straight slash "nerf" is not exactly accurate. It will actually act as a buff to those high slash meta weapons due to slash physical mods being able to increase the damage of slash procs. So yeah, Atterax will not only remain king, it will have its throne reinforced. 

Nope, once upon a time DE decided to rebalance the damage and enemies and squeezed the scaling system in a way that the previous lv 100 enemies have become level 40 enemies. We had enemies at lv40 who were as strong as the previous lv100 enemies and the squeezed scaling system created a harsh increase in their ehp and damage capatibilities.

With how the current scaling works a lv1 enemy with 100 hp and 50 shields at lv100 gets 14K hp and 825 armor what means approx 74% damage reduction. That is an extremely harsh increase and because of the rpg nature of this game we always try to use the best of the best and the devs too give us tools for this exact reason.

The devs were the ones who pushed the line further and further, when i was started to play any weapon what was not sortie 2 viable was trash and now with PoE bounty 5 this gets even worse as that area makes the problems of the enemy AI more visible and dangerous.

The system currently cannot be fixed by balancing damage or balancing enemies, they have to go at both of them but our system is too broken for such changes. IF you go and nerf damages it will only make areas unplayable if you go for enemies it makes the maps too easy.

 

Warframe needs one thing done. We need an official confirmation on what is the intented new playing level (i suggest the simalurcum system where your mastery sets what can you fight against) and stick to that.

Go up to weapons and mark each of them to point out which levels they are supposed to work and where are they count as overkill.

Rebalance the game around that choosen new power level aka make the enemy scaling stop at that level and make it reasonable.

Rebalance our gears to fit the new power levels. (easy and fastsolution would be an endline code what decreases all damage by X% on every play controlled effect)

And all of these in the same patch!

[ShortCat]

Il y a 9 heures, LSG501 a dit :

And a major problem of damage 2.0 is the enemy armour scaling....it's why A LOT of us keep complaining about it or use things like slash to bypass it....  none of the proposed changes seem to be changing that aspect either.

The problem of damage 2.0 IS the damgae 2.0, not armor scaling. Armor works as intended and will push players out of a game with insane damage reduction. It is intended that player is forced out of a mission because those missions don't have a fixed end point, at this point scaling of armor, shield and/or HP kicks in. The thing is, armor is working the best as a barrier for underprepared groups. I would welcome linear scaling though.

Il y a 10 heures, LSG501 a dit :

Corpus have their own issues, for a lot of us it's the sappers (often too many plus their orbs damage scales up too quickly) and nullifiers (which do still have problems even after their drone).  Infested well, they're the easiest ones of the lot except the ancients when there's a lot of them buffing each other. 

Nulliefiers were never a problem, people who don't understand why they are in the game on the other hand...

Il y a 10 heures, LSG501 a dit :

You can not balance weapons/abilities for all levels of enemies when the scaling of the enemies is the most broken part.... if you can't see that then carry on thinking DE's approach is right but many of us can see it's not.

Weapons are not balanced around all levels, they never were and never will be. The game is also not balanced against endless. You have a picture of Warframe in your head that is not there, never was, and probably never will be.

The last official statement on scaling was, it is based around lvl 40, as those are the highest enemies you can encounter on Starchart (pre PoE). Everything beyond it is advanced content and should be hard in one way or another.

 

[LSG501]

28 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

The problem of damage 2.0 IS the damgae 2.0, not armor scaling. Armor works as intended and will push players out of a game with insane damage reduction. It is intended that player is forced out of a mission because those missions don't have a fixed end point, at this point scaling of armor, shield and/or HP kicks in. The thing is, armor is working the best as a barrier for underprepared groups. I would welcome linear scaling though.

I disagree but you're entitled to your opinion...

28 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Nulliefiers were never a problem, people who don't understand why they are in the game on the other hand...

we'll just ignore the drone that doesn't take damage because it's inside the nullifier bubble (even though it's showing as outside) or the nullifier bubble not being destroyed even after having 200 bullets fired into it from a soma prime shall we... it has issues, it's not about understanding what it's supposed to do, it just isn't functioning how it's supposed to. 

28 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Weapons are not balanced around all levels, they never were and never will be. The game is also not balanced against endless. You have a picture of Warframe in your head that is not there, never was, and probably never will be.

Did I say that every weapon would output the same level of damage against the same level of enemy... no I did not.  Balance doesn't mean every weapon is going to one shot, balance can also be relative to the MR level the weapon is available at etc, you wouldn't expect an MR1 weapon to be as strong as an MR8 weapon for example. 

 

[toafarmer]

All of us who are here for more than a year know that "rework" is a synonym of "nerf" when it comes to DE. 

[Loswaith]

On 12/26/2017 at 1:16 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

Knowing how fast DE works on crucial updates i say the best would be to fix the scaling first then fix the player damage, that way we are not gonna stuck with a sceniario where we shoot literal tanks with potato canons.

The issue with that though is you cant fix the enemy scaling without knowing exactly what player capablities will be (the current issue now), because there will be no basis as to what is a good scaling for enemies to respond to those players.  If enemies scale to Chroma with a Tigris Prime, it will have a hugely different result than if they scale to Hydroid with a Boar Prime.

We are already stuck with shooting literal tanks with potato cannons given the current scaling, things like bleed damage from slash procs and heavy CC just give the crutch to get past that.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Loswaith