Jump to content
[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

Recommended Posts

But to build around something completely otional DE is breaking down the entire building without solving the issues with the rest of the neighborhood...

From what has been shown so far, the heavy strikes will be were the combo counter will drain its accumulated damage potential... if they're clunky to use it would be like the old monster hunter games were you had this one soht one kill axe but you culdn't hit with it due to how cumbersome and unwieldly it was.

So somtping donw a problem by creating a different one? not a good way to clinb out of this hole

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DarkShadow980 said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the main problem/exploit that people are using for their spin2win is the fact that Maiming Strike applies before Blood Rush.  Take the Atterax for example.  25% base crit chance, 3x crit multiplier.  With maxed Blood Rush, after just five hits, you have ~87% crit chance.  But with maiming strike, after the same time, you get just under 400% crit chance.  That's a 9x multiplier if you don't use Organ Shatter, 16.2 if you do.  That's where the insane scaling is coming from.

If Maiming Strike applied after Blood Rush, things would be different.  Following the same example of Atterax with Blood Rush/Maiming Strike and a 1.5 combo multiplier, a spin attack would have only 177% crit chance.  The average crit multiplier would be around 4.5, or 7.7 with Organ Shatter.

This cuts down on how long a Maiming Strike/Blood Rush build can last in a survival mission while still letting that build be usable in pretty much the entire game, except for a select few cases.

I would hope that DE already know this basic information, since rebecca routinely spin to win on stream.

However, this combo is what allow us to kill with melee at maximum efficiency, and since efficiency is so important in this game, to some players as well as the recently introduced game mode, nerfing it with no change on enemy scaling and no compensation on damage output would be a bad idea, especially when the proposed changes are 1, combo counter doesn't affect regular melee (the sword poke in the video) and by extension the interaction of bloodrush is unknown, and 2, empty combo counter for one strong attack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious about DE intention of removing melee trough the walls if there's any intention to do so for powers and explosive/AoE weapons as well...

They will be touching mele weapon ranges as well, I hope this time they'll remember to give ranges actually corrensponding to the phisical mode, the galatine, the prime in particular, has an effective reach that's less than half the actual blade!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, (PS4)JustitiaCaelum said:

I would hope that DE already know this basic information, since rebecca routinely spin to win on stream.

However, this combo is what allow us to kill with melee at maximum efficiency, and since efficiency is so important in this game, to some players as well as the recently introduced game mode, nerfing it with no change on enemy scaling and no compensation on damage output would be a bad idea, especially when the proposed changes are 1, combo counter doesn't affect regular melee (the sword poke in the video) and by extension the interaction of bloodrush is unknown, and 2, empty combo counter for one strong attack

I think the point he was trying to say is the primary issue with the spin meta hasn't been addressed so far. And if DE want the spin meta to go away then those primary issues need to be addressed. I don't know what DE wants, but I agree that if they want the spin meta to go away other issues which pertain to enemy scaling will become more easily felt by the players. Issues of some content not having answers to their level of difficulty.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

But to build around something completely otional DE is breaking down the entire building without solving the issues with the rest of the neighborhood...

But are they ACTUALLY doing that? No. All you're focusing on right now is heavy attacks...and nothing else the devs have mentioned about the melee rework.

16 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

So somtping donw a problem by creating a different one? not a good way to clinb out of this hole

False dilemma and fear mongering. You don't really know that will happen.

Word of advice? Test and see when it goes live.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

If I need to be in melee mode to use it, learn new controls for it, and spend all of my combo counter points to use a heavy attack, it better be a one-hit kill for any non-boss enemy up through Sortie 3 levels. 

But even then it takes away the fun of building upto a 4x multi if it all goes away in one lacklustre heavy attack only having to start all over again.

One powerful heavy attack is nothing to someone who mains melee and relies on keeping that counter up and doing constant incresing damage as the enemies scale up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Word of advice? Test and see when it goes live.

That's all I'm doing - not buying rivens, giving feedback or anything until I see exactly what the DevTeam cooks up.
A question - are these melee changes going to go live during or after TennoCon?

Edited by Mach25
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

I think the point he was trying to say is the primary issue with the spin meta hasn't been addressed so far. And if DE want the spin meta to go away then those primary issues need to be addressed. I don't know what DE wants, but I agree that if they want the spin meta to go away other issues which pertain to enemy scaling will become more easily felt by the players. Issues of some content not having answers to their level of difficulty.

Ya i agree. The spin meta, i.e. huge range with high scaling damage is at least being partially address here, with the melee unable to hit through world geometry, although that brings up the inconsistency of what we can and cannot hit through. I quoted him simply because the post clearly identified the scaling potential of maiming+bloodrush so I can bring up my caution of "killing efficiency needs to be nerfed with care, both on player damage output and enemy ehp", and both scaling damage AND range are part of killing efficiency. No hostility intended. 

I also alluded to sanctuary onslaught because 1, console just got the update and I, being a solo tenno for the most part, can't even get pass zone 6 solo despite killing very efficiently and therefore slightly salty, and more importantly 2, the saryn re-rework and melee dev workshop are both released after sanctuary onslaught on pc. The cynic in me is thinking the possibility of onslaught being introduced as a way of finding all efficient meta and "addressing" them. 

All in all, the video and example here are probably early WIP so there could still be loads of changes and QoL fixes they are working on (seriously why launch the enemy when you are trying to MELEE them). The potential for a more fun and engaging melee system is there, but the information they presented certainly raises a lot of questions and concerns to our existing gameplay. 

  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, (PS4)Anfffy said:

But even then it takes away the fun of building upto a 4x multi if it all goes away in one lacklustre heavy attack only having to start all over again.

One powerful heavy attack is nothing to someone who mains melee and relies on keeping that counter up and doing constant incresing damage as the enemies scale up.

I'm optimistic about the melee-wide buff to compensate, *however* I still have doubts about the Heavy attack as a design. I could understand it if Heavy attacks used a fixed amount of Combo counter buildup, but a full discharge is almost never going to be worth doing. If it's just one big attack that blows your combo meter,I have a strong feeling that combo is going to be largely ignored (outside of specific mod-conditional applications) because heavy attacks are almost certainly going to be ignored just like they are now. Why frontload your damage? You almost never need to.

Like sure maybe there'd be that one situation where you run into the one Nox Eximus in a defense wave and youll be able to one-shot him with your 5x combo stacks, I guess. But outside of that I don't really see a benefit to building combo unless things like Bloodrush will still apply to quick melee. That's still unclear.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

But are they ACTUALLY doing that? No. All you're focusing on right now is heavy attacks...and nothing else the devs have mentioned about the melee rework.

False dilemma and fear mongering. You don't really know that will happen.

Word of advice? Test and see when it goes live.

Failure to prepare for potential dilemma make the victim just as culpable as the maker. One should never take a wait and see response; always get as much information or hypothesis as possible to shore your chances. While telling someone not to freak out if noble, telling them to sit on their hands and not question is not.

  • Like 2
  • Woah 1
  • Applause 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, (PS4)JustitiaCaelum said:

Ya i agree. The spin meta, i.e. huge range with high scaling damage is at least being partially address here, with the melee unable to hit through world geometry, although that brings up the inconsistency of what we can and cannot hit through. I quoted him simply because the post clearly identified the scaling potential of maiming+bloodrush so I can bring up my caution of "killing efficiency needs to be nerfed with care, both on player damage output and enemy ehp", and both scaling damage AND range are part of killing efficiency. No hostility intended. 

I also alluded to sanctuary onslaught because 1, console just got the update and I, being a solo tenno for the most part, can't even get pass zone 6 solo despite killing very efficiently and therefore slightly salty, and more importantly 2, the saryn re-rework and melee dev workshop are both released after sanctuary onslaught on pc. The cynic in me is thinking the possibility of onslaught being introduced as a way of finding all efficient meta and "addressing" them. 

All in all, the video and example here are probably early WIP so there could still be loads of changes and QoL fixes they are working on (seriously why launch the enemy when you are trying to MELEE them). The potential for a more fun and engaging melee system is there, but the information they presented certainly raises a lot of questions and concerns to our existing gameplay. 

Yeah only bolded the "ifs" cause people have been skipping over them in the posts I've been making. No hostility was intended, only emphasis. I'm in the camp that prioritizes the dmg of the slide attacks over the range of the slide attacks so that's my bias.

19 minutes ago, (PS4)JustitiaCaelum said:

I, being a solo tenno for the most part, can't even get pass zone 6 solo despite killing very efficiently

I agree, solo onslaught is definitely something DE should at least turn their heads too. They don't have to move towards anything definite, but it should atleast be a marker on their map. Because right now it is so difficult to keep up with efficiency with only one person. Maybe have a solo version of onslaught with some levels even having bosses, that would be pretty fun.

 

Edited by Cibyllae

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Urlan said:

While telling someone not to freak out if noble, telling them to sit on their hands and not question is not

Offering suggestions and concerns is one thing. Saying "X will be bad because I think and say so" is another thing entirely - and that's not really helpful to the devs.

And where did I tell anyone to sit on their hands and not question anything? I disagreed with someone and offered some advice, which was to not freak out and reserve legitimate criticism for when it's time to do so. People can take that advice or leave it as they please. I have no control over that.

I have my concerns about the melee rework, and I voiced them like a lot of people here have done. And at this point, all we can really do is say "hey, what about x?" and "don't forget about y", hope that the devs are listening and being mindful of what we have to say, and wait to see what DE actually does.

Because that honestly is the reality of the situation we're in right now.

Edited by MirageKnight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mach25 said:

A question - are these melee changes going to go live during or after TennoCon?

Not sure - I'd like to see this be part of the talked about "main-line update" coming soon as I'm anxious to see melee get a bit more depth to it. That said, if they feel the need to delay to make sure everything works as intended and that all "i"'s are dotted and all "t"'s are crossed, I don't mind waiting a bit longer still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of good changes DE, but the issue is that no matter how much you buff melee combos damage or how amazing you make them look, I will still revert back to whatever makes me move the fastest because the damage counts for nothing if your dead from doing combos that are almost stationary. If the short range weapons actually gave some benefit in terms of mobility over long ranged melee weapons crazy reach i would be more than happy to do more melee combos.

Obviously you could say that you would use ability X or frame Y to counter the issue, but i want to be able to enjoy some melee action on any frame i decide to bring and not get punished at higher levels because i didn't bring my spin-to-win stick. I just feel that if your going to do any revamp DE, you should look at weapon stances that makes your character almost stationary, they would only be useful for missions you are actually standing still in.

 

  • Like 1
  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least the combos they previewed seemed to favor movement, difficult to tell more as that was an early preview of a work in progress, but was promising ...

Still I find the main hindrance to fluid swordplay is the glacial slowness of weapon swapping, at least with their intention of making all single secondaries and melees equippable togheter like currently glaives and some pistols would mitigate the problem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm more positive with some of the ideas being presented now that I have had more time to think about them. I still have some ok a lot of concerns and ideas I think should be taken into acount with this rework. Below is some of them.

The combo counter idea is ok, but if, and only if, the substantially increased damage is at minimum, greater than or equal to, the damage bonus any given weapon would have achieved at 3X or a 3.5X combo multiplier, ideally it should represent the 4X multiplier since that's about the norm I get for extended missions (like seriously I regularly get there by roughly 15 minutes of a survival) I understand this may be difficult to balance with the charge attack, but remember to take into consideration that your combo multiplier is going to be expended in one attack.


One of the most important issues with melee, especially with reduced range, is being able to close the gap between you and an enemies with guns which is a majority of the enemies in the game. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to have all melee weapons carry a passive buff to things like sprint speed (in a similar vein to the kogake prime and the telos boltace's passive), jumping, bullet jumps, and parkour velocity relative to the melee weapons innate or potential ranges, shorter range weapons give a bigger buff, while longer range melee weapons give less or perhaps even no buff. I also think that this is a good opportunity to blend melee with the games parkour system more. Perhaps these's buffs get disabled when you block as a balancing factor (or in the case of sword and shields: don't get that penalty). Also being able to keep your momentum while attacking needs to be good in order to keep in the fight.

Preserving life strike as a mechanic is a priority that is going to have to be tackled, since without the ability to hit through walls and having a reduced range means that cover isn't as accessible as an option when playing with melee combat: you are going to take damage even with increased movement speed and gap closers there's going to be considerable wear and tear (especially later in the game) when you get into the thick of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are proposing changes to melee I have a few questions.

1. What will happen to Bloodrush/Weeping Wounds since they depend on the combo counter? Also this will affect Wukongs passive, as well as body count and drifting contact.

2. How are you going to address abilities that rely on the combo counter i.e. Ash's Blade Storm?

3. Are channeling mods going to go away and if they do will the Endo invested be refunded to players? 

4. Since a lot of veterans use "spin to win" to farm focus will they be changes to the amount of focus gained or needed?

5. Speaking of focus and channeling, what's going to be done to address the Zenurik tree with channeling efficiency passive or Naramon with the slowed drain of the combo counter?

6. How will stances be changed to reflect the proposed changes? Most of the console players I know either mash melee button or just do the block combos since the game is fast paced. That said pulling off combos on enemies that would survive the first few hits can basically one shot you before you finish the combo, or the combo has so much mobility you miss the target.

My thoughts are this

Leave melee the way it is with a few tweaks

1. & 2. Leave the current state alone and have the combo counter build up a meter and use it to charge heavy attacks that drain similar to channeling but do not take away to combo counter. This would not affect Bloodrush/Weeping Wounds, Body Count/Drifting Contact  or Warframe abilities/passives that rely on it. Use channeling button to execute heavy attacks

3. Remove channeling mods and make popular ones like Life Strike rely on heavy attack meter

4. & 5. Focus rework and tweak

6. Change stances to have basic attack, block combo attack, and heavy attack while using what is currently the channeling button

 

I'm not concerned with Maiming Strike getting nerfed/going away because it's really just not needed(short of focus farming the ridiculous amount of focus needed to level up the tree for the Operator. Which in my opinion Operator Mode is a waste...I think it was Tactical Potato who said "After all it's Warframe not 12year olds with laser hands") I also think reach mods are a bit odd except for use on whips since they can be animated to show the extra length while a sword/staff/ pole arm weapon just looks a "sell" in WWE when a person falls without having any actual connection from the opponent.  Those are just my thoughts. 

Edited by (XB1)Infinite Night1
Added thoughts
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, after reading the "plan" that DE has for Melee here's what I think

Directional slam attacks are a good thing, I mean whats not to like you point in the direction of a group of bad guys press your attack button and they all go flying, The new stance combos look interesting, but building up a combo counter for one heavy attack sounds like a huge Nerf to me Regardless of whether or not you give Melee weapons a damage buff, in which case I've done the math, You'll need to at least triple the base damage output (and up to 5x with some weapons) to mitigate the lack of damage scaling

I mean, I'm not a fan of the spin to win play style but I do rely on the scaling damage from said counter at higher levels as many players do.  What can be done to fix the spin to win meta?  Easy enough, Fix the collision geometry so that Melee weapons or Players won't pass/drop through it, give us... the players more conditional mods like the Operation Shadow Debt set so that we have more options in which to utilize different melee play styles, and thus add more variety to our overall gaming experience...  Everybody wins that way.

To reiterate... Nerfing one aspect of a combat system is not the answer, if you want to rid yourself of certain meta then give the player base something new and shiny to play with to steer them away from said play style and keep things more interesting overall... and fix the geometry bugs that let it happen in the first place.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, 5nak3Doctor said:

That's Not whats everyone is upset about. You should really read before you judge.

My apologies, I just checked my post (will attempt edit soon) and realised I missed out the "that I personally know" part.

Edit: Went to change my other post and saw that it did indeed indicate "people that I know", so left it as is. So back to my originally intended response.... "I never said everyone", and specifically said "people I know". I do appreciate your attempt to keep over-exaggeration to a minimum though.

Edited by Raphaello

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don’t understand how anyone could support this? You know DE is going to screw this up but you have some of the people defending the changes like they are DE white knights. You know DE is full of crap and just obscuring what they are saying to make the crap sound better than it actually is. A nerf to the combo counter?! Is DE insane?! The changes where you can’t hit anything through walls? It isn’t the worst change but it could get really annoying if our weapons just end bouncing off the walls everytime we try to strike an enemy. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just resubmitting my thoughts from the amalgamation of the first post;

I like what I see

Will there be additional variations between weapons - eg. Tonbo and such polearms with dual blades being split into staves?

Edit: orthos in its make seems to be more aligned to a staff than a polearm or glaive (in the traditional sense) as something as the tonbo is - such a change could bring greater variation to play styles

Edit 2: nikana sheathed and open blade stances - will there be any options to remove the auto sheath/keep the blade out for the nikana coming with the melee update?

Eg. Decisive judgement vs tranquil cleave in the animation difference in styles of attack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As some already mentioned, please consider keeping the combo counter on "normal attacks" or keep it somewhere in there, since some (older and specifically weaker) weapons need it!

Also when removing channeling, please don't get rid of the Channeling-Effect (cool-effect?), which is really cool! Maybe add it to heavy attacks? Would make them look even more HEAVY! 😄

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack. 

 

On 2018-05-11 at 10:00 AM, Danjal777 said:

No one ever said you go back to zero combo counter, they said that it uses the combo counter as fuel for charge attacks. 

You may need to re-read that section carefully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-05-11 at 12:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

Real walls: ok. Containers: um no, we should go through those... so I hope that is what you're aiming for.

On 2018-05-11 at 12:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.

Not ok with this, I use channeling all the time as a way to make stealth killing easier, if I can't just turn channeling on and use it as I do now I'm not going to like this.

On 2018-05-11 at 12:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

First part: good, second part: Nope, I'm out. Guess I'm only using Ivara, if I can't scale damage for my hits this game stops getting played. Many sorties demand the use of melee counter damage, and onslaught will become pointless unless you have a Saryn (or Octavia I don't know the meta right now).

On 2018-05-11 at 12:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.

Good luck? That's not sarcasm, I mean if you completely overhaul melee to be chaining heavy and light attacks together to do combos... but that's a lot of melee combos you have to make so....

On 2018-05-11 at 12:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Dodge canceling any melee attack!

Finally. Yes very much good yes!

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As DE is certainly still experimenting with Fighter Frame, could be a good opportunity to improve melee PvP with this update and obtain something similar to For Honor with Blocking/Channelling vs Quick Melee, Quick Melee vs Heavy Attack, Heavy Attack breaking Blocking ... It could look fine in a new mode with melee weapons only of course for dueling, team vs team or fight against all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...