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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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Whoa calm down there Alex Jones 2.0. You ain't helping the appearance of console players at all with that rant.

I think we'd all be better off if we just calmed down and waited for the changes to go live and see what the data says then.....like adults.

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While the most points sounds very interesting I share the fear of the people, that removing the combo counter for normal attacks is not one but 2 steps backward.

Why removing the combo counter for normal attacks if you could add an additional "Combo Counter".

Something that also ramps up with every hit, if the bar is full you can unleash a powerful "Heavy Attack".

For example something from Diablo

Arcanepower.gif

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What a waste of time. I haven't ever seen anybody using combos but while waiting at the exit zone (or using an e-e-e combo). My prognosis: that won't change. E for the win.

As for combo counter: you aswell can take it out of the game. Warframe is about killing cannon fodder and sharing your love for cheese, you should have learned that after 5 years. If the melee rockford is off of the plate, we find some new cheese you haven't on your radar yet.

Of all the mentioned changes dual wielding any one-handed melee-weapon with any secondary weapon is the best news, pity it won't be the first change to come.


 

 

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Alex Jones 2.0? That’s pretty funny! 😂 As if my points were irrational.  I question if you actually read any of the points I was making? Could you have at least come up with a reasonable argument to support the stupid joke you made? I really don’t care about other console players “reputation.” I’m asking why DE has been forcing all these devworkshop builds with almost no regard to the community? I’m sorry but a lot of the proposed changes that DE has been making for some time now are just awful. I don’t really like how DE only ever takes an active role in the community when people are enraged over changes like damage 2.0. It just feels disingenuous for DE to propose these changes when they don’t even take part in the discussion, they don’t even respond to anyone’s questions, ideas or concerns. Like why have these forums when they don’t even interact with the community? Why are they even making all these changes? What are they expecting to accomplish with all these reworks? They do a lot stuff without explaining anything, while practically ignoring the community at large. If you don’t see a problem with this then I’m not the one with the problem. 

Edited by (PS4)a1-w23e_r4
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So the quote "reasonable argument" for that joke is your a stark raving lunatic. Much like Alex Jones.

I'll break up some of your incoherent rantings.

Quite frankly i'd ignore this community as well. Whenever a meaningful change is shown off the community launches into an child-like screeching uproar of biblical portions. Like this one, over very little.

"WHY are they forcing these builds onto us" um it's because it's their bloody game genius.

Why should they partake in the discussions when we as a whole can't be civil or even act like grown adults.

Why are they making these changes? Simple, there comes a time when the meta needs to die and change IS needed. This change to melee is needed.

Edited by LupisV0lk
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16 hours ago, FataL-Flaw said:

Heavy attacks are just too clunky, ineffective, and disruptive of the normal game flow to make them worth using.  It isn't fun..  

If Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds will only effect heavy swings, DE will have effectively nerfed the mods into useless garbage.

Just FYI, it wasn't that long ago that the old "Heavy attacks" were the only attack worth using in melee. The idea that players wouldn't used them due to the wind-up time has already been disproved. Combo's were created to mitigate the dependence on heavy attacks. 

Don't assume the current status quo is the only way the player base can function.

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14 hours ago, Ulvra said:

...You're speaking here of mechanics you've seen in a rough "just barely ready to show" state and claiming them "clunky and unfun" and sorry to say, but until you try them ingame I'm going to hold absolutely zero value to such statements, but regardless this is why we give feedback, so that DE can take concerns into consideration and attack problems before they are brought into the game.

 

14 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Do you know this for a fact? Do you have access to a build of Warframe that we don't and actually tested this?

No? 

Then it might be a good idea to wait and see before proclaiming doom. You might change your mind after actually trying it when the melee rework goes live.

Also, if it turns out that heavy attacks are indeed too clunky for what you consider to be normal gameplay...and I really feel this needs pointing out....you don't have to use them.

Heavy Attacks will be completely optional.

My statements about heavy attacks being unfun and too clunky are based on the actual game now, and the problem wherein they do not speed up with attack speed mods...and they force you to stand still to be used...neither of these major issues with heavy attacks have been addressed by DE..

 

One of the major strengths of this game is how useful melee is, how you can fly through the level parkouring like a ninja, smashing down mobs in your wake...  If melee is transformed to the point where we have to stand still, charge an attack, just to effectively kill end game, heavily armored content then melee will be dead.. 

DE should tread lightly here.  For every one person who whines on the forum that they don't like seeing people melee a whole area of mobs in one hit...there are probably 5-10 who do so in game regularly..and another 1-5 new players who see them do it and want to do the same.

If you break melee, you will have broken a major part of the fun in this game for many people.

Range mods are so popular because they allow you to be very effective with just a melee weapon..  Spinning attacks let you do so with mobility in a radius... Hitting through obstacles makes it more feasible to melee in an environment with walls, boxes, pillars, and the like... What percentage of game modes seriously allow you to spin  into a wall and still complete the mission objective?  Seriously?  That's a bit of a straw-man argument for removing the ability to hit through walls, because the only place I have ever seen it done is in Sedna arena where the mobs are extremely tough and have ways of one-shotting or cc'ing you...  I just do not see people actually using that in other areas of the game.  There is no reason to.

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Haha lupis I don’t really understand how it is crazy just to ask questions about things that don’t make sense. Your response was pretty dumb, as their are plenty of people on hear who ask legitimate questions. Just because you have some people who choose to act dumb isn’t an excuse for DE to ignore the community overall. You choosing to ignore the community is irrelevant. Whether you choose to talk to people or not doesn’t effect how well the game plays. DE are the developers, and this game wouldn’t even exist if it didn’t have a community to support it and buy their stupid plat. DE has a responsibility to take an active role in that community, especially when major game changes are being talked about. The concern here isn’t that the changes will no longer be meta. The concern is how effective will melee weapons be with this rework? Will people even be able to play efficiently with these changes, especially against high level content? This isn’t getting rid of “mete,” this is effectively making things weaker. If DE wants to force these builds while showing no regard for the community, then they shouldn’t have bothered allowing other people to play it. DE has to make money though right? But they can’t do that if they don’t have a consumer base willing to support their game. Warframe is practically DE entire business. If the community wanted to they could just stop supporting the game, virtually running DE ass into the ground. The game isn’t just theirs anymore. 

Edited by (PS4)a1-w23e_r4
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4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Just FYI, it wasn't that long ago that the old "Heavy attacks" were the only attack worth using in melee. The idea that players wouldn't used them due to the wind-up time has already been disproved. Combo's were created to mitigate the dependence on heavy attacks. 

Don't assume the current status quo is the only way the player base can function.

that like saying, Old meta (charge attack) move to (spin to win) then now it (heavy attack), then what next ( Slam attack ?) . The ideas here is not " we want SPIN TO WIN STAY" it more like ok we know it op. But let move on from it heavy, to an thing where. Ok, your build (combo counter damage boost stay), and you can now be a heavy focus attack or just normal attack focus. Why can't we have both instead of just It Heavy, that like let move from one thing to another, then somewhere down the line DE: We think this meta is OP and we nerfing it, and the community: WHY T_T QQ Cry. A better solution would be a Open build. Combo stay where it is. The real NERF TO SPIN TO WIN is just the Range. Who care about the 90% CRIT Increase, you can do that with any build. The issue here is DE: We hate this spin to win and it cheap no fun ( but that like 10 to 20% of the community). The real crying from the community is the price of (meiming strike going to drop), no one else care about it. This is just an simple situation. If De want to have Combo DPS boost remove to just heavy attack. That buff on all Melee weapon to be 2.5x or 3x for it to be effective. because the ideas here for melee you have pro and con (pro) you no need to reload, you do damage and you basically, Run hit and beat ur enemy, feel like kratos, 50% (story, alert, etc) of content can be done easy . (cons) Armor screw you over, enemy damage can one shot you (elite sanctuary, sorties, the other 50% (importance one) you can barely done due to YOU IN THEIR FACE and bombard can be like "Hi there, do you have time for the lord and savior RNGESUS?") and you have to use health boost mods (It a Must), armor mod, and if you like a ability caster (good luck with survival, because if you think power duration and range is good,ignore the hp good luck), and you must focus on a small amount of frame that can truly be helping you on melee and ability cast. My issue here is why are we just moving from one meta to the next and then when we find that true balance, if we want balance leave it open. Let the player be: " i like heavy attack i can use atk speed to be faster" " i like normal attack i can do this build without need to have to force attack speed to make the heavy faster". By having it open DE can like well this is a bit over the top let scale that down a bit or this need a buff, that need. So that it easier to fix thing.

Edited by LemonNade4Kavinh

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While a lot of people have their eyes on slide attack and being able to hit though walls.

 

Are there any thoughts or idea or even information regarding the forgotten wall attack?

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4 hours ago, FataL-Flaw said:

My statements about heavy attacks being unfun and too clunky are based on the actual game now, and the problem wherein they do not speed up with attack speed mods...and they force you to stand still to be used...neither of these major issues with heavy attacks have been addressed by DE..

Then you should have made yourself clearer to begin with...calm down.

Also, we don't know yet if these major issues with heavy attacks have been address or not on their end. For all we know, these things could - hopefully - be fixed on their internal build.

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I have talked to several people in this forum about their opinion regarding this change. Some are optimistic that this will be a new breeze on a game that already experience content drought shortly after it's major update. And some believe that this change is unneeded, as in, "don't fix something that isn't broken". So, after compiling these thoughts in my head, let me say my opinion on this matter:

1. atterax had it coming ever since maiming is introduced. it's nerf is inevitable. I believe this is a right step to balance the game so people can finally play the game properly rather spamming one macro over and over again.

2. this change is somewhat not well-thought and have many troublesome mechanic, such as:
- First, information overload, when you are in a situation where you have to mind too many things like melee counter, deciding to spend the counter on a single heavy attack, combo position, etc, making using melee mentally taxing. If this thing applied to games like DMC, then it's fine, but this is a horde shooter, where there's tens of enemies pointing guns at you in every moment. Even coping with the situation can be mentally taxing. We don't need more burden that  what already exist.
- Second is incompatibility with current mods and arcane. primed fury, berserker, riven mod, and arcane strike is still a thing. if a player use them all and reached 3 attack speed, it would be incredibly hard to time the heavy attack correctly and use it constantly.
- Third is the buildup rate for the heavy attack and the reward for that buildup. This thing might be the best damage dealer on paper, as it scales infinitely. But, there's no point on saving 999k damage if you only spend it on only a small 5 meter radius in front of you. Remember that this is a horde shooter. we need the buildup we worked hard for be worth it. I'm not saying we need equinox level weapon of mass destruction range, but we need the heavy attack be good, and applicable on every situation, or else it will only be used on niche situation. So, basically, we don't need 999k damage on a small 5 meter range in front of us, we rather have 100k damage on 10 meters radius around us, as that will kill more things and make it more rewarding to use.

3. the weapon damage buff in exchange of the current sweet, sweet 3x combo multiplier be better worth it. Also, what's going to happen to blood rush and it's happy friends? will they got other uses? or will they stay as they are? I sincerely hope they will apply on normal attack, as if they didn't, it will be the end of every crit heavy melee weapon, and you'll see a new era of everyone sliding (macro-ing) again with cassowar and lesion. It will effectively cut down viable melee weapon to half, and killed melee diversity in-game.

So, as stated above, this brand new mechanic is visibly troubling and have a lot of holes in it. I know it's still a WIP stuff, and I hope that they will address these issues. But nonetheless, supporting this change on it's current condition is like taking a leap of faith. It is wise to wait for more information to come, until it addresses the aforementioned problems above, then talk about it seriously once again in my opinion.

Thanks.

Edited by Irisena
fixed some typos
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IMHO...

1) There are still a ton of melee weapons that could be made unique through 3.0 (Sibear, I'm looking at you).

With the Lech Kril fight as a template, Tenno should have weapons (and in lore seem to have weapons) that can create the elemental/status effects similar to Kril's hammer attacks.

Heat swords kind of do it, Caustacyst hits a little closer to what could be...but I think there's an opportunity for melee weapons to be more versatile and possibly viable at all (or most) enemy levels without having to be whirling Galatine Prime storm of death.

2) Reapers/Scythes were mentioned as one of the things recognized as not performing as intended, and some ideas were floated by the devs how to re-envision them.

With this in mind—and with devstream 111 conversations about melee range reduction—I think there's some ground that needs to be carefully tread.  Historically, a lot of long-hafted, 2-handed weapons were built for REACH, and POWER—toppling infantry, unmounting cavalry, and (possibly most importantly) inspiring fear...which was the case for the claymore and zweihander swords of European fame.

I am fine with some range reductions on melee weapons, but then hit boxes would need to be re-examined to be easier to find without the generosity of melee range to compensate.  Plus, there's a psychological disconnect from weapons like whips/whip-swords that are meant to master areas of melee combat—not just one's immediate personal vicinity.

3) How do you make meaningful changes that won't need to be re-addressed for fixes (sooner vs. later)?

Personally, with the changes out in the open, and with the community knowing they're coming, I'm really hesitant to invest and forma melee until the changes hit, and live in the cross-platform community for a month to exhaust all the "kinks."

But, if melee is made increasingly more "sexy," that opens the door for a larger (and stronger) cosmetic market for melee weapons, and increased $$$ for DE.  I would happily pay for cosmetics on weapons I know I WILL USE FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE.  I realize this is a point of light contention within the community, but IT IS THE BUSINESS MODEL, and the lights need to be kept on.

 

Thanks for always having an open forum on development 🙂

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Just spit-balling here...

If, in theory, the combo counter will build-up like a meter to be used for a heavy attack, why not display melee weapon "bars" on the HUD that light up as they're charged.

For example:

You have a Galatine Prime—which has a max of 5 bars of charge—and as you attack the bars light up, building the power of a heavy attack.  Depending on what your "bar strength" is when you attack (maybe) the attack could be operationally different (a vertical cleave at 2 bars, or a 360 degree slash at 3, or a forward charge with both hands holding the blade like a battering ram at 5 bars).

Or...

With something like a Sibear, 1 bar of charge lets you execute a freezing swipe in a small arc, 3 bars emits an icy wave akin to Frost, and 5 bars slams the Sibear in the ground and forces ice spikes to impale enemies (appropriately taking time for this attack to compensate for its potential power).

Weapons could build max charge bar capacity as they're leveled and/or Prime versions could fill quicker or have a higher cap.

NOTE: I realize it could be difficult if someone with max charge bars wanted to a 1-bar attack, but that's for the devs to figure out 😉

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My first post in this thread was concerning channeling and the general uncertainty regarding channeling and mods, and stuff. Was maybe a little negative on my first impressions.

In this post I'd like to say that the animations shown looked really good and the idea of unifying and updating the stances sounded good too. Hopefully more of them will be useful and fun and fluid so there's more variety to be had.

I am looking forward to that stuff for sure, I just wish we had more details about some of the core mods and things. And also how Exalted melee will be affected. I have been wanting Hysteria updated for years, imho it hasn't been worth using because of the combo and animations it currently has, regardless of its stats.

Edited by Kinetos

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something something something 

Quote

You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon

10/10 would still read through 40 pages of tinfoil angst again because 

Quote

You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon

 

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21 hours ago, hooperinius said:

IIRC maiming strike isn't changing. They are changing the way that the combo counter adds damage to your melee attacks.

Melee attacks won't go through walls anymore, range is affected, maiming strike is used on weapons with range, so it is nerfed in a way.

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i didn't read through the last 58 pages.  i'm sorry for the dev who did.

new melee changes sound like a good progression in the combat system to make it more interactive.

using ffxi as a reference, i'd like to see the heavy hits be 4 different types. 

  • from a console perspective, l2 and x or o or triangle or square.
  • other games use this special attacks to do things along the lines of:
    • offense attack
      • single target
      • aoe
      • multi hit
      • cone area
      • etc.
    • defense ability
    • buff ability
    • buff squad

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11 hours ago, Toran said:

What a waste of time. I haven't ever seen anybody using combos but while waiting at the exit zone (or using an e-e-e combo). My prognosis: that won't change. E for the win.

As for combo counter: you aswell can take it out of the game. Warframe is about killing cannon fodder and sharing your love for cheese, you should have learned that after 5 years. If the melee rockford is off of the plate, we find some new cheese you haven't on your radar yet.

Of all the mentioned changes dual wielding any one-handed melee-weapon with any secondary weapon is the best news, pity it won't be the first change to come.


 

 

This is a good point. The way this game is played - in the actual trenches - isn't really very compatible with stance combos and special moves.

If anything, the attacks in a stance should just chain contextually (e.g., if you're running at the enemy and come near the wall while meleeing them, you'll run up the wall and do some cool wall attack...just because the wall was there). You still have all the moves and animations that are part of the stance, but the game handles looking cool -- you just mash the button as fast as you can. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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Sounds good so far. Hopefully you shorten the dial-a-combo portion of the melee system down to reasonable levels with an eye towards giving each weapon class a niche to exploit.

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On 2018-05-14 at 12:01 AM, LuckyCharm said:

With melee getting looked at it's probably a good time to start looking at blocking and how it's used/not used.

I for one never block because there's never been reason to. I can just bullet jump or strike enemies around cover, or just simply kill them before they can hit me. That doesn't mean blocking couldn't be useful. Just currently it isn't. Without 100% block chance you're just effectively losing hp or shields without really gaining too much. You can much easier take out a lancer for example by simply just bullet jumping up to them and doing an air attack, or slide attack. Even at high levels it's more efficient to try and conserve your hp by evasion rather than block them

My proposal: 

With melee equipped make a bar similar to the operator's energy bar that appears around your cursor when blocking. Give block a 100% chance to block fire and hits so long as you have the energy in that bar, and make taking hits erode that bar until your block is broken. Make the block bar recharge over time or with kills. And most of all allow players to block knockdowns and shockwaves. Perhaps also allow the use of block to cut tethers from scorpions and ancients before you actually get fully dragged to them. 

The goal of this then would be to allow you to have clutch blocking without energy cost while making melee combat against heavy units more viable without having to resort to "kill them or cc them before they can land any attacks"  and to also allow quick blocking to find cover and conserve player hp, considering in most missions without pets attacking or medi ray it seems to be a limited resource. 

 

 

Like the old stamina bar we used to have? Would be nice if it were used more effectively rather than trashing it entirely. Unfortunately deleting and complete retooling are usually what happens. 

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7 hours ago, IonSakura said:

While a lot of people have their eyes on slide attack and being able to hit though walls.

 

Are there any thoughts or idea or even information regarding the forgotten wall attack?

I don't Know anybody on my friend list (and I have almost 400 of 'em) or any player for that matter that use wall attacks except for unveiling Riven Mods

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3 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Like the old stamina bar we used to have? Would be nice if it were used more effectively rather than trashing it entirely. Unfortunately deleting and complete retooling are usually what happens. 

Kinda like that yeah, except the old one only let you block a couple hits and was also tied to sprinting and other movement. Was thinking a significantly better increase so you can maybe block all hits for about 3s if held down 

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1 hour ago, LuckyCharm said:

Kinda like that yeah, except the old one only let you block a couple hits and was also tied to sprinting and other movement. Was thinking a significantly better increase so you can maybe block all hits for about 3s if held down 

Rewarded with energy and u can reflect bullets in the direction ur blocking to stun enemies when u do a perfectly timed block.

Aimed melee strikes while blocking.  Horizontal swinging with light attacks (fan be done infinitly) and vertical/diagonal swings with heavy attacks (same as above but much slower)

Edited by (PS4)marcellusg90
P

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