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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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While I do share some of the comcerns that my fellow players have voiced, I am pleasantly optimistic about these changes. The reason is that I have been playing before combos and channelling came into the game. Back then, you owned Dual Zoren and modded it for speed for 'coptering. Otherwise only other time you used melee, you'd spam attacks hoping for crits or try to time charge attacks.

There is a lot of fear about having the meta broken. It's okay, though. If the Dev saw a glaringly unbalanced flaw in their ecosystem and did nothing about it, they would be bad devs.

The proposed changes makes executing combos, easier. Who doesn't like that? It grants more control over aerial manuvers. Awesome! It provides 100% damage reduction on block. Sign me up!

The 2 major complaints I have heard have been against spin attacks clipping through walls, and the combo counter giving a bonus to the heavy attack only. I'll start with melee clipping the environment.

The only melee weapon that should have an attack that punches through the environment, is the Jat Kittag. And not even it's spin attack. It's slam attack deals innate blast procs. That's it. So the explosion might pierce walls.

As for the combo counter, I think players need to realize what it is: it is a reward system for using melee. That's it! Let's be honest, you can go entire marathons of endless missions without ever relying on your melee attack. Melee generally never reaches the heights of a well-modded primary or secondary. That is, unless you are exploiting primed reach, blood rush, and maiming strike.

I don't see changes coming to Blood Rush or Maiming Strike. The change to what the combo counter directly affects (heavy attacks), is enough. You will still be able to use those two mods in concert to shower your screen in red digits. The biggest difference is that you might want to take out the last enemy in a defense with the heavy melee attack instead of just spinning.

DE is looking for the imbalances in the game that detract from the fun factor in the game. If you think that facing a wall near where enemies will be funneling through and spinning is fun, maybe this isn't the game for you. Move over a little, to the entrance and engage the enemy.

How would you like it if DE added an enemy to the game that kept attacking you through walls?

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I must say that the demo video of an Inaros unable to kill 6 Butchers (invulnerable) is a bad demo. I'd love to see real situation where he's butchering at least a platoon of enemy with decent level, in a corridor like the rest of the game, with at least the same speed as current melee system do. Also the visual feedback (or was it your hand shaking ?) on melee hit is kinda weak, can we have some adjustable zoom, screen shake level on hit ?

IMO, no enemy in the game is smart enough for the new changes of melee combat tactics. Right now most of the contents's limit factor is based on ridiculous level scaling and time gating. I really hope these melee changes won't become a flashy way to buy the enemies some more time and increasing the artificial difficulty. If the AI still move and act like dummies, then no matter how splendid you "dance" around them, it will get bored pretty soon, and people will still find then spam the most effective attacks just like slide attack right now.

And if this big rework happens, please don't make melee completely useless against future bosses like the Eidolons right now.

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9 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

attacks in a stance should just chain contextually (e.g., if you're running at the enemy and come near the wall while meleeing them, you'll run up the wall and do some cool wall attack...just because the wall was there). You still have all the moves and animations that are part of the stance, but the game handles looking cool -- you just mash the button as fast as you can. 

This. I wholeheartedly support this idea. DE, please make this happen.
We don't want more burden in our brain thinking about combo counter, combo position, judging when to spend all of our combo on a heavy attack, all while minding the enemies around us and coping with the situation. All of that is simply too heavy and taxing on our brain. Especially on a game that is grindy by nature. You can't expect a player to use their brain continuously for 3 hours straight for that harrow system bp right? So, in the end, if you guys make too complicated system, what will happen is simply:

9 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

What a waste of time. I haven't ever seen anybody using combos but while waiting at the exit zone (or using an e-e-e combo). My prognosis: that won't change. E for the win. 

 

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re: directional ground slam - please restrict this to Zephyr or give Zephyr a significant advantage using this.

"void mode" or "surge mode" - similar to syndicate procs, build a meter and have a short duration over buff or a unique buff per frame. (for example, Trin's 90% buff can return here, but lasts only 10 seconds, Rhino detonates his iron skin like with iron shrapnel, except the iron skin transfers to team mates, or mirage produced 4 extra clones for 10 seconds... something)

I do like the direction that melee combos, heavy/charged attacks will no longer require melee mode. That was a serious hassle. I don't know how well it'll affect gunplay in pc though. I've got a lot near my WASD keys already mapped to something else...

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I could swear that someone allready had the following idea about dual wielding, but i' ll share my idea anyways. I would love to be able to mix up 2 single swords to a dual wield combo :D.

What else? nothing i just love what you guys are doing thx DE for all your efforts :).

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I don't know if the devs can even read this because of too many suggestions but here is my suggestion for the dagger + its dual wielding with a secondary and the other melee's

1. Make life strike like saryn's molt, but the requirement should be "Regenerate X health in X secs after using ground finisher) it should synergize with the new slam attack + it can remove the immortality abuse of the frames specially the tank ones with RAGE/Hunter adrenaline SPECIALLY WUKONG, INAROS, NIDUS. (nidus and inaros will still be almost immortal anyways)

2. Charged attack of dagger must be a thrown one, like ferrox but with different animation 
(tenno will throw the dagger at the enemy and that dagger will pin that enemy on a wall and it deals X dmg/sec or stripping their armor/shields while the enemy/enemies are pinned, picking up the dagger is like the ferrox too, but the dagger automatically returns after X sec or after reaching 80-100m away from it)

2.5 Throwing dagger while in the air, single press of button while in the air slams the ground, but charged attack in the air will throw the dagger with precision on the crosshair
( imagine a badass tenno bullet jumping in the air then throws dagger at the enemy below and pinning them on the ground while you fall down raining bullets on them using the secondary and picking up the dagger after you fall)

3. For sparring weapons, If I remember correctly there's already an enemy launcher already (the spin attack of sparring weapons) using that + (maybe) an aerial combo is added it might synergize.

4. The SnS (sword and shield)  add some default blocking like while running the tenno is slightly raising that shield and blocking some enemy fire, not perfect block, but enough to negate some ramdom enemy bullet spray damage. If the Tenno blocks, it slightly increases the shields area of blocking, imagine the silva and aegis fire slightly spreading to block a lot of bullets, not just for yourself but also blocking for the team.

ran out of ideas for now T^T
 

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Zelgorath said:

How would you like it if DE added an enemy to the game that kept attacking you through walls?

Um ya. There are enemy's that attack through walls. Scorch and Hyekka Masters do.

I do agree there is a problem but an easier fix rather then messing up all melee in the game would be to make it so you cant melee though walls when you have maiming strike equipped.

Plus do you really think you will be able to hit an enemy right in front of you or at 45 degrees if your swing comes in contact with any part of the environment after the change? This is a concern among many others purposed.

 

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I personally think the combo system should just go away and instead you should build up a special bar. Either make it so you can use a special attack once it's full that destroys everything around you or depending on charge level it should power up a weapon type special right click move. Dagger for example heavy attack would be a targeted dash towards a enemy and the more your special is filled you'd get a mini ash bladestorm attack on nearby enemies or if we'd went with full attack you'd just get the old ash bladestorm effect that would destroy everything. Something to make the heavy attacks worth using. If it's just a single heavy attack it'll get ignored unless you want to punch a heavier target in the face and that's it.

Am looking forward to that targeted slam system. Divekicks hype.

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I'm not sure whether this was addressed, but I can't find any info regarding mods that scale with combo multiplier, and there's a bunch of things I'd worried about.

 

The new heavy attack combo mechanic encourages building up a combo and then resetting it every once in a while, while mods such as blood rush encourage constantly building up combo and doing everything you can in order not to let it drop down to 0. These are two contradicting playstyles that will lead to a single thing: People will focus on the stronger one of the two and ignore the other.

If Blood Rush stays as it is, it is guaranteed that people will just ignore heavy attacks so that they can get as high crit chance bonus as they can, which is just a waste of a mechanic. However changing Blood Rush will most likely make many crit-based melee weapon obsolete, due to how bad the regular crit mods are.

In my opinion the best thing to do in this situation is to change Blood Rush (and all of the other scales-with-combo-counter mods) so that, whenever you use a heavy attack, it gives you a crit chance buff that scales with the amount of combo points spent. This way the mod will not discourage people from using heavy attacks in fear of losing their mod bonus, while keeping weapons that rely on those mods at their current power level.

Edited by VentiGlondi

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23 hours ago, (PS4)JustitiaCaelum said:

I would hope that DE already know this basic information, since rebecca routinely spin to win on stream.

However, this combo is what allow us to kill with melee at maximum efficiency, and since efficiency is so important in this game, to some players as well as the recently introduced game mode, nerfing it with no change on enemy scaling and no compensation on damage output would be a bad idea, especially when the proposed changes are 1, combo counter doesn't affect regular melee (the sword poke in the video) and by extension the interaction of bloodrush is unknown, and 2, empty combo counter for one strong attack

I was explaining how the current system works, and one way that it might be rebalanced.  I'm wary of these combo counter changes.  I'm excited for making the combos easier to perform, and more seamless integration into the regular gunplay.  You're right, we have no real information on how Blood Rush will work, but personally, I hope that the combo counter is relatively untouched.  However, I do want to see the effectiveness of the Maiming Strike/Blood Rush reduced.  As it stands, Maiming Strike with Blood Rush on an Atterax deals 22.5k damage per spin attack at the 1.5 combo multiplier.  That's just stupid.  And it scales up to almost 100k per attack by the 3.5 multiplier.  That's excessive, and with the changes I proposed, at that same 3.5 multiplier, you would still deal 35k damage per spin, and 23.7k per regular attack.  I feel like that's still more than enough to deal with normal content.

TL:DR, If Maiming Strike applied after Blood Rush instead of before, you would still be able to 'kill with melee at maximum efficiency.'

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It's crazy at lower levels but at higher levels where enemies have 90-95+ percent damage reduction it's not so crazy...and that is the real problem, enemy scaling.....

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19 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

This is a good point. The way this game is played - in the actual trenches - isn't really very compatible with stance combos and special moves.

If anything, the attacks in a stance should just chain contextually (e.g., if you're running at the enemy and come near the wall while meleeing them, you'll run up the wall and do some cool wall attack...just because the wall was there). You still have all the moves and animations that are part of the stance, but the game handles looking cool -- you just mash the button as fast as you can. 

I'm also jumping on this bandwagon...

If boss fights between a Tenno and a similarly-sized opponent were the only boss-like encounters, quasi-elaborate combos that make the fight more akin to Nioh or a Souls-like would make sense—but that doesn't exist in this game.

==>I WOULD LOVE AND TOTALLY APPRECIATE SOME CROSS-PLATFORM, OR PLATFORM-BY-PLATFORM MELEE STANCE COMBO USE METRICS <==

The team has always set the bar for publicly disclosed analytics regarding gameplay, and if this information could be pulled from the game, this could really inform the devs and community about player behavior in regard to combo usage and viability going forward with 3.0.

(Then again, I don't know if that's possible, so the data may just have to be anecdotal)

Edited by (PS4)TheRallykiller
odd sentence break

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Something  that been bugging me: What about the melee weapons that rely on charged/channel attacks?

Some examples: 

  • Glavies
  • Caustacyst
  • Gunblades Ex. Redeemer
  • Sancti Magistar
  • Sigma&Octantis
  • Zenistar 
  • Sibear
  • Synoid Heliocor

Source(s): http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Sibear 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Synoid_Heliocor

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_2.0

 

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11 hours ago, (PS4)Zelgorath said:

The change to what the combo counter directly affects (heavy attacks), is enough. You will still be able to use those two mods in concert to shower your screen in red digits. The biggest difference is that you might want to take out the last enemy in a defense with the heavy melee attack instead of just spinning.

At this point there will be tons of videos where people farm bosses by steps: 1: Get an 5x or higher Step 2: one shot any boss. Great game play, in a horde game. That like Dynasty warrior, but you can only attack one person or ignore all other melee and use one with (heavy attack as an AOE or CONE) then Rip why bother buff the other melee.

 

11 hours ago, (PS4)Zelgorath said:

DE is looking for the imbalances in the game that detract from the fun factor in the game. If you think that facing a wall near where enemies will be funneling through and spinning is fun, maybe this isn't the game for you. Move over a little, to the entrance and engage the enemy.

This game is farm central, people been finding way to literally afk farming, or easier way to farm. If this game a bit less, this could be ok. At this time It not a Strong nerf to the Whip, the range and wall is just meh. It still wipe the game, just move a bit closer...... Maybe a few meters........ not that Strong nerf 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)TheRealTommo said:

Love the dual wielding idea!

Also melee should not go through walls.

Of course melee shouldn't, unless it makes sense to do so; but then we as players shouldn't be getting hit through walls by enemies either.

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I have seen that they want to change the issue of the combo multiplier and the idea they have in mind is not that it is good or at least my personal opinion that making the combo multiplier no longer affects normal attacks seems unnecessary to me and even if the damage of such melee weapons will be increased will not scale as it should damage will be short to high levels eliminate the channeled I see it well and replace the channeling for heavy attacks. I see it useless also lose all the combo multiplier to download all that damage on a single target will be wasting time knowing that nobody will use heavy attacks and this idea does not convince the players or at least what I have seen, I hope that you have this issue in mind because if you implement it as you want, you can damage the melee weapons all the other changes I see them very fair I know that these changes are not definitive, but I ask you to look well at the combo multiplier because this last it does not seem fair to me
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Light attacks-melee button

Heavy attacks-tap of the weapon swap button

Stealth/Finisher or special feature (Throwing of the Glaive)-Reload button that is unused

Stance switch-old channeling button maybe?

I say just make the heavy attack an additional button to use and remove all hold, pause and directional input for combos out while making it to where u can hold certain buttons for a much stronger attack that would drain the combo meter like they want to implement.  Heavy attacks could have there own combo string and be the mid air ground slam. Its combo string can be a simple 3 or 4 hit combo that can have light attacks in the string.  Holding the light attack button can have added properties like armor ignore or break, stun or knock-back (Could this be how lifestrike would activate?).  

Blocking allows you to aim ur melee strikes like exalted blade light being horizontal and heavy being vertical/diagonal swings.  Perfectly timing a block gives you some energy while also reflecting bullets where you are aiming stunning whoever is hit by the reflect. 

While meleeing you could switch stances mid combo which would initiate some form of attack to let u know youve switched and start an entirely new combo.  Think of it like a refresh button. Also when meleeing this can be the only time you can hold down the heavy attack button to deal a savage strike to enemies.  Outside of meleeing stance switching will only switch stances and holding heavy attack without initiating an attack will swap weapons. 

Combos should include square, triangle and circle (reload button) in the combos only. Holding the buttons would drain combo counter some not fully and some more than others.

Should air combos be a thing?

im not sure what to do about dmg?  A 2.0 or 2.5x increase automatically maybe 3.0?

What everybody think of this?

Edited by (PS4)marcellusg90

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Thoughts:

- What happens to life strike? It's a critical mod to many MANY melee builds. 

- will stances with spinning attacks change (e.g. broken bull combo)? 

- Should I expect to have any non-maiming builds be annihilated?

- What happens to mods like blood rush (also a CRITical mod) when combo counter multipliers become easier to achieve? 

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On May 11, 2018 at 2:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

For the love of all that is good, don't do this. This is unnecessary, and a huge nerf to crit build users like myself. I'm begging you guys, DON'T DO IT. 

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vor 39 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Architect Prime:

- What happens to life strike? It's a critical mod to many MANY melee builds.

 

healing return *cough*

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I would like to see the WAR sword to be used as a template for representation of actual range vs. modded range. 

using defualt color scheme, the sword is a dark reddish color, and has a bright blue aura that extends beyond the physical sword. 

My idea is that the blue aura would increase or decrease size according to the mods, resulting in the effective range. 

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