"Rewards will dictate whether Elite Alerts will be popular" - Seriously?

[DreisterDino]

This quote in the headline of this topic is from a popular Warframe Youtuber, and i wanna talk about it because i couldnt agree less and i dont really like that kind of approach.

Because my thinking is that no matter how good the rewards might be, if the gamemode isnt fun it wont be popular.

On the other hand, even if the rewards are great but the gamemode is totally annoying and not fun it also will not be popular or people will only play it until they get the rewards and never go back.

 

My thoughts on what we know from Primetime about Elite Alerts:

• only 1 life and no revives sounds interesting and could be fun
• starting level seems fine, could be a little higher maybe but if its MOT-scaling it should be ok
• random buffs for frames and weapons sounds really fun and will probably achieve something that i hope for for a long time: a fun reason to test out other weapons and frames I and many other players usually avoid using. The exact opposite of ESO where you are pretty much forced to take certain frames if you wanna get far
• only endless gamemodes is a plus for me because i enjoy them more anyway
• and now i need to adress the rewards...combine the previous point with the change to the rotation to A-B-C-C-C-... it also gives a reason for many players to stay longer
• also, i think its a good deal that you get a ressource that is for cosmetics only in that gamemode, because thats pretty much the only thing a long-time player might care for anyway
• overall, i think it sounds like the challenge many players in this community are looking for with modifiers that might make it really fun because those are buffs for frames and weapons instead of annoying conditions like "extrem cold" or something like that

 

My problems with the approach that "only good rewards will make this gamemode popular":

• at first we should talk about what good rewards are for long time players: Endo? Credits? Relics? Most longtime players dont need any of those possible rewards i mentioned so that might be a "no". Weapons and Frames? The problem is, once you have those its just like getting a 2000 Credit Cache, so also a "no".
• Mods that are really viable and outstanding and improve your damage/performance a lot? I think that also a "no", because on the one hand it might only make something that can be a challenge boring once you own those mods, and on the other hand, once you have them you dont care about them anymore again as a reward.
• Tbh, in my opinion there cant be any rewards for longtime players that make a gamemode worth to be played for a long time. Because you either dont need them because you have enough of them already, or its the "once you get them you dont care about that reward anymore" case.
• The solution to this for some people is: Make the drop chances super low so it is "challenging" to get them. But that again makes people get annoyed and burnt out by a gamemode even more and even faster, just look at Khora for example. And once you have it you are just happy you never have to go back.
• So the only reward that can keep a gamemode alive is: FUN. And a rewarding feeling when you did something you dont think was possible.
• Cosmetics can be something on top of that, but again, as soon as you have a reward it doesnt make you play that gamemode anymore

 

Example "Elite Sanctuary Onslaught":

• most players considered Radiant Relics and the Vandal Weapons as good/great rewards
• even after the "nerf" you can still get huge amounts of focus really fast in this gamemode
• There are also decent Endo rewards in this gamemode

 

• Still, whenever i run a public group on ESO, in the vast majority of runs already after the 1st or 2nd zone at least one player left the game. It seems that most people only play it to lvl a weapon really fast and leave as soon as possible. And even if you could get like 4000 Endo after each 2 zones: if you have maxxed out all mods already and are sitting on tons of endo, why would you even care for that?
• ESO is just a shadow of itself and of what it could have been - good rewards didnt help it all obviously. Tell me i am wrong and that i have been just unlucky that i never find a random group that stays together at least to Zone8, but i have talked to clanmembers about this and they experience pretty much the same all the time. 

 

Conclusion:

I am excited for the gamemode and it might become something that i play with clanmates "just for fun" - although that might sound crazy to some players in Warframe 😀

I am not looking for a new gamemode that is just another place to farm something as fast as possible and then never go back.

If we get nice cosmetics to show off that we achieved something there - great. If not but the gamemode is fun i will gladly play it anyway.

I am at a point where i dont really need much in the game, i have pretty much all the frames, all weapons, got all the gear i need or want, i dont need more plat because i pretty much purchased everything that i might want to have in the game. So if i play something i do it just for fun anyway. I prefer endless fissure missions for the gameplay, and yes - its nice when you get a rare drop of something, but in the end i dont even care about that because i already have it anyway and i dont really need to sell it because i dont need plat. And i am not alone with this and i think many players would enjoy a gamemode that is simply fun and not about farming something.

 

 

Sry for the wall of text, but i had to write this down now and i am curious what you think about it!

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by DreisterDino

[sleepychewbacca]

The thing is, without loot, I'm not interested. I'm sure there's at least another that thinks that way. 

ESO is fun and all, but once I got what I needed, I never had a need to touch it unless I really wanted to. 

[krc473]

10 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Sry for the wall of text, but i had to write this down now and i am curious what you think about it!

Well, I read it and all I gathered was "People are should completely ignore WF Youtubers". (I mean, I fail to see why anyone would be interested in that type of content anyway, so I might be a little biased)

 

You are correct - if DE makes the gamemode(s) actually enjoyable, people will play them. If the rewards are good, that is a plus too. If DE makes the alerts as tedious as bounties/onslaught, well, that is when the rewards matter. If the gamemode(s) are going to be terrible, why would anyone bother if not for the rewards? Personally, I am fairly skeptical of how good the new alerts will be. Recent new content has been beyond tedious, so I wont be surprised if the alerts are the same. But if they are terrible, I am not sure that the rewards will be good enough to compensate anyway.

16 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

And i am not alone with this and i think many players would enjoy a gamemode that is simply fun and not about farming something.

I am in the same boat as you - I have most things. I would quite like a gamemode that is just fun. Hey, if it has bad rewards, but is enjoyable I will still use it.

[taiiat]

19 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

or people will only play it until they get the rewards and never go back.

that's pretty much how just about everything in the game is. 

[Cubewano]

I mean its not wrong so...? Loot dictates the value of near everything in this game. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb sleepychewbacca:

The thing is, without loot, I'm not interested. I'm sure there's at least another that thinks that way. 

ESO is fun and all, but once I got what I needed, I never had a need to touch it unless I really wanted to. 

You are right, there are many that think like that.

But in my opinion that is flawed, because if you only play for the loot the fun might fall behind.

When you say ESO was fun and still never played it again once you got everything - i wonder if it was really that much fun?

 

vor 5 Minuten schrieb krc473:

Well, I read it and all I gathered was "People are should completely ignore WF Youtubers".

No, that was only the reason i made this topic now. I see this mentality in the forums a lot aswell, but i dont feel like making a comment each time because i thinks thats a bad approach.

And i dont want people to ignore WarframeYoutubers, i dont understand why people watch or listen to some, but hey, everyone should watch what he likes.

But if a big Youtuber says something like this i have the feeling he is able to "feed this mindset" or spread it although people didnt thought that way before.

 

[Darkmatt3r]

Different sides of a coin. keep flipping the tables. it fuels the ultimate greed.

[Sormaran]

Well there's no point to argue whos in this game for what. Dont try to force your "just for fun" on others who dont want it, everyones taste is different and all that. 

But i think its safe to assume that vast majority will absolutely not play any gamemode as soon as they got every reward they needed from it. So yes, rewards do indeed dictate how popular gamemode is, but even then its only for a time. Onslaught was popular and then everyone got vandal weapons and now, as you said, its hard to find full party at random for 8 waves without some(all) leaving pretty soon.

Nothing "fun"(also define "fun", can you do that for everyone?) will ever be popular if theres no loot to support it. And said loot somehow have to be something that players need endlessly, even those who have everything, personally idk how can you do that.

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

I have only one thing to say: If elite alerts no gives good rewards (like cosmetics for weapons like the conclave, attachments and new cool mods too) not gonna play them. I can accept the endo or relics as a reward but has to be more than 400 or not worth it. Sortie gives anasas and 4000 endo 99% of the time and they are very easy to complete. 20m and you're done.

Have fun is good but no loot no party.

[DreisterDino]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb taiiat:

that's pretty much how just about everything in the game is. 

 

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Cubewano:

I mean its not wrong so...? Loot dictates the value of near everything in this game. 

Yes and yes, you are both right.

But in my opinion both the Devs and the playerbase "make a mistake" by thinking everything should be always about loot.

Still, in the end i can live with the fact if it is like that, and if the gamemode turns out to be fun i will play it no matter what the rest of the community thinks about it.

But i also think that if Warframe Youtubers and the Community always only talks about loot and rewards, the DEVS tend to think way more about the rewards instead of the gameplay mechanics aswell because they might get the feeling thats all we care about.

vor 14 Minuten schrieb krc473:

Personally, I am fairly skeptical of how good the new alerts will be. Recent new content has been beyond tedious, so I wont be surprised if the alerts are the same. But if they are terrible, I am not sure that the rewards will be good enough to compensate anyway.

True indeed, i was also pretty much disappointed by the latest content, nothing new since ESO was really great for me. But i still have hope 🙂

[krc473]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

And i dont want people to ignore WarframeYoutubers

I don't mean "ignore" as in not watch. If you like someone's content, watch it. (I do not see the appeal, but hey 🤷‍♂️) More, when someone with some form of influence makes an arguably silly comment just ignore it. Or take a critical view of it. People too frequently see their favourite person make a statement and do not question it at all. (your last point seems to touch on this) 

 

Warframe is generally a rewards driven game. But why can this not be different with some modes? I would argue that from a companies standpoint, they should aim to make enjoyable AND rewarding content. The two are not mutually exclusive. Many companies fail in this aspect. If you make terrible content with a good reward, people tend to ditch it as soon as they get the reward(s). So make the content more enjoyable (or why bother investing time and money into it?).

[Sormaran]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

Still, in the end i can live with the fact if it is like that, and if the gamemode turns out to be fun i will play it no matter what the rest of the community thinks about it.

You see, thats the right mindset. But how come you apply it for youself but dont give same courtesy to ppl whos in there for loot?

[sleepychewbacca]

5 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

You are right, there are many that think like that.

But in my opinion that is flawed, because if you only play for the loot the fun might fall behind.

When you say ESO was fun and still never played it again once you got everything - i wonder if it was really that much fun.

 

I think the context needs to be accessibility; ease vs reward. 

ESO is fine and all, but the rewards scaling didnt gel with me. Hence me not touching it simply because I found it not worth my time. 

Sorties, the old Trials, those were easy, simple to do and the rewards acceptable. Something a bit harder, but with an incentive that's more fun. Arcanes, etc. 

[(PSN)vidare]

I play endless to challenge myself and see how a certain build handles against lvl 100+

The boring part is that you have at least 50minutes of boring low level enemies before yoy reach that point.

Also i read/heard that the scaling will be much much faster and reach max at 2h? 

Hope that is the case, but i might renember wrong.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

it all depends on how much enjoyment you take in the challenge of it. clearly some people like OP will enjoy it more for the experience, but for many of us, we're not inclined to do missions unless we get something out of it. especially when it comes to harder missions; nobody will fight level 100s just for credits, but for a Riven Mod, they'll grab their best loadout and rinse that mission faster than you think. so in a way I agree that rewards will be important, but I think the other problem here is that Elite Alerts might not even be that hard: there's no modifiers, and we have frames like Inaros that can tank level 100s all day with he right Arcane setup and a couple buffs. in the case of modes where killing is secondary, such as interception or Mobile Defense, CC spam will continue to allow people to more or less bypass the need to engage these tougher enemies and risk death and subsequent failure.

for someone like me, the rewards are important. I'll give the alerts a try no matter what, but it has to offer high enough quantities of resources like Endo or Kuva to be worth doing regularly. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Sormaran:

Well there's no point to argue whos in this game for what. Dont try to force your "just for fun" on others who dont want it, everyones taste is different and all that. 

But i think its safe to assume that vast majority will absolutely not play any gamemode as soon as they got every reward they needed from it. So yes, rewards do indeed dictate how popular gamemode is, but even then its only for a time. Onslaught was popular and then everyone got vandal weapons and now, as you said, its hard to find full party at random for 8 waves without some(all) leaving pretty soon.

Nothing "fun"(also define "fun", can you do that for everyone?) will ever be popular if theres no loot to support it. And said loot somehow have to be something that players need endlessly, even those who have everything, personally idk how can you do that.

 Like you have noticed in your last post, i am not trying to force anything on anybody. I mean, i used the words "might be" "in my opinion" and so on and nearly every sentence to make clear that i am talking about my point of view.

 

For the definition of fun: In Relation to this topic this might be the most simple definition of fun:

Something you play even if you dont have to

 

Because it often seems to me that people only play certain things in the game because they need the ressources, have to farm the focus. It sounds like they just do it because they have to, not because they want to. If you get fun out of farming something, thats fine. But it often doesnt sound like it.

 

 

 

And there is another problem: How often did you hear people in the forums, youtubers and so on ask for "content" this year?

This comes up frequently, and people who only play for the loot will never be satisfied, this constant asking for content will always be there and will never be satisfied.

Something that is about fun and not about loot will have a much greater longevity then loot-driven content.

Edited September 25, 2018 by DreisterDino

[MystMan]

I see loot as a short-term goal and fun as a long-term goal.   If loot is all one cares about, once they get them they quickly run out of stuff to do and find the game boring, asking for more content.

I primarily still play a lot of Archwing, Reactor Sabotage, Kuva siphons and Spy to this day simply because I enjoy them; I honestly don't care about their rewards anymore once I got them. They're just icing on the cake now. (I played Trials daily, arcanes don't matter to me. Playing it with clan mates was just a lot of fun).

The only reason I don't play Onslaught anymore after getting all its loot is because the efficiency system locks out a majority of Warframes that aren't AoE offense-based if you plan on going far. That and the efficiency drop-rate doesn't scale based on number of players present, a solo player shouldn't be expected to work 4x as hard to be as efficient as a full 4-player cell thus making it mandatory to use the 2-3 meta frames to do so.  I'd like to reach wave 8 and beyond solo using Zephyr for example, but that ain't happening due to the system as it is now.

Like OP, I do see this mentality of today's gamers that they only need a carrot on a stick as an incentive to play something long-term. I see this pop up a lot in conclave discussions. I find that odd cause back in my day in the past we used to play pvp simply for the experience and a place on the scoreboard and weeeeeeeee liked it. Today you must have skins and unlockables included otherwise it's not worth playing. Welp, guess I'm old, time to watch some NCIS and Law & Order.   

Edited September 25, 2018 by MystMan

[DreisterDino]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb MystMan:

Like OP, I do see this mentality of today's gamers that they only need a carrot on a stick as an incentive to play something long-term. I see this pop up a lot in conclave discussions. I find that odd cause back in my day in the past we used to play pvp simply for the experience and a place on the scoreboard and weeeeeeeee liked it. Today you must have skins and unlockables included otherwise it's not worth playing. Welp, guess I'm old, time to watch some NCIS and Law & Order.   

I remember those times, and i sometimes think that i am too nostalgic to want something even slightly comparable to that. 😀

Everyone had the same weapons, no customization, scoreboard was never safed anywhere and it only popped up for a few seconds at the end of the round.

Today people say it is "UNFAIR" when everyone, even a noob that just joined the game is allowed to use the same weapons as a veteran, your scores need to be saved and be visible to everyone, you need achievements in every game no matter how stupid they are. Well different times.

 

That being said, i like the customization in Warframe and the variety, and i dont want everyone to get each item the moment he creates an account.

But i would like to see something that you simply play because you want to play it and dont think about stuff like "is it worth my time?" thats the difference to for me

Edited September 25, 2018 by DreisterDino

[KuroShiranui]

I try to stay on the middle ground in this situation. While i'm aiming for loot, I am also aiming for fun factor. Even when it's not really complying to others playstyle; especially those who camps during Survival. I'd still try to achieve a sense of fun by doing complicated moves, jumping, gunning and running, using melees and guns, etc. What i'm trying to say is simply point and shoot is not fun, and moreso when people camp at survivals and use their aoe sweeps to kill stuff instead of us.

 

If there's anything i'd like to add, a more cooperative play could add more fun for sure. For example I still play L4D2 all these years even though there's no loot or anything to achieve, just straight shoot-em-up zombies but still requires cooperation with other players to succeed. And by cooperation I mean a proper one, like when a tenno is busy doing something like hacking, another tenno would do the killing and defending. 

 

So yeah, more cooperative play would be enjoyable. Trials come to mind when saying this, but perhaps more synergy with other warframes is more important than simply cranking the enemy levels to 11.

 

But again, not that kind of survival camping I mentioned above. That's no fun at all.

[wtflag]

Everyone has only so much time.

Obviously they want to play the mode that gives the best rewards for their time spent.

The best reward isn't the same for everyone. For some it may be endo, or kuva, or prime parts or even credits as a new player who do mot have access to index yet.

Regardless, rewards are important in a loot based game for the majority of the players. 

[FlusteredFerret]

1 hour ago, sleepychewbacca said:

The thing is, without loot, I'm not interested. I'm sure there's at least another that thinks that way. 

ESO is fun and all, but once I got what I needed, I never had a need to touch it unless I really wanted to. 

Well thats kinda the question OP is trying to answer.

 

How do you make a game mode compelling for veterans, who already have tons of stuff, without giving them rewards they either don't need, or will essentially break the game and make it no longer challenging? Cosmetic stuff like skins, accessories, decorations and special glyphs are the only things i can think of.

Maybe they could give it some extended life by having a kind of medal / ranking system, whereby the higher your score, (similar to SO / ESO) the better (more "blingy"?) the reward? A bit like the Plague Star trophies...only wearable, so you can show off to everyone how awesome you are?

For example, bronze, silver, gold, diamond, platinum syandanas (expand for as many ranks / levels as you need). The same with trophies, glyphs or whatever.

 

Of course, as has been pointed out, the actual gameplay needs to be entertaining and have decent replay value, to ensure any kind of longevity.

Maybe a variation on the "capture" mission, except the entity you have to capture can teleport around the map, necessitating more co-ordination & team play (while also fighting off the usual waves of enemies). Maybe you also have to find or construct a Nez...I mean a trap, to capture said target (with said object / resources never being in the same place)?

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by FlusteredFerret

[LupisV0lk]

1 hour ago, FlusteredFerret said:

How do you make a game mode compelling for veterans

You can't really. DE's dammed if they do, dammed if they don't.

[Synpai]

"RANDOM BUFFS SOUND FUN AND EXCITING" 

Rivens would like to have a word with you.

This possibly will have the same effect; crazy powerful frames will be allowed to dominate even harder and frames that struggle, will only do so a little less.

3 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

• The exact opposite of ESO where you are pretty much forced to take certain frames if you wanna get far
• only endless gamemodes is a plus for me because i enjoy them more anyway

Think you might be making too many assumptions here; it's very possible that the whole 1 life thing becomes a pressure to avoid squish frames and self damage weapons.

3 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Tbh, in my opinion there cant be any rewards for longtime players that make a gamemode worth to be played for a long time. Because you either dont need them because you have enough of them already, or its the "once you get them you dont care about that reward anymore" case.

The latter problem occurs because DE like to dangle carrots in our face as opposed to having places where carrots pop up around the track. There's a way to give players incentive to play things, but it takes more time and effort than mods. I'm still rooting they give us control over mission variation and effects (you can see some examples in the post below). 

In the example of ESO, I would play for a massive eternity if it had genuine random spawns (basically anything aside from bosses), along with the chance to spawn synthesis targets for standing and efficiency (to prevent nuke to win necessarily); It would make it a good place to get Simaris standing as well as a place to work toward getting scans of all enemies.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Synpai

[Autongnosis]

Let's face it the only rewards veteran can realistically care about are exclusive cosmetics and kuva/rivens, anything other than that is pointless considering the huge stashes of everything we have. 

More than implementing different rewards, this game could really do with a meaningful resource sink. 

[Cubewano]

3 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

But i also think that if Warframe Youtubers and the Community always only talks about loot and rewards, the DEVS tend to think way more about the rewards instead of the gameplay mechanics aswell because they might get the feeling thats all we care about.

Tell that to Archwing. Or the original void. Just because players love their loot doesn't mean they won't slam a game mode for not being good.