The old void.

[Gamma745]

5 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

Funny, all I remember is Orokin Cells, credit caches and R5 cores

Like this?

[QueenKharn]

People can post equivalents of getting multiple Gold rank items in a single outing and the like in the modern system, and there's a better overall chance of that happening that of any of your examples with the old system. Plus we get to make a choice of what we want, from a selection of up to 4 rewards, improving things further.

They key system was changed due to community outcry over how unfair and/or grindy/RNG the system felt overall, and for the most part you hear very few complaints about how it is now.

Edited January 24, 2019 by KokoroWish

[Rallarman]

Meh, dont miss "waiting 20 mins, then wait 20 mins" 😤

What I hate with new system is void traces on interception and defence mission. I dont play them because I'm quit good at forgetting to gather 10 before the time.

 

[Veridian]

8 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I do think that DE could help make the grind for Void traces a lot easier, perhaps by having enemies in the Void drop them from time to time. that would get more people going to Mot as well. 

What? You mean to tell me you're not happy with the 3 traces you just got for cracking a relic?

Well your cap is not that high probably, only 1200-1300? I'm sure you'll cap it by next Wednesday.

Indeed my worst regret, trying to hit the cap, so I'd be ready for the next unvault. On the bright side, I did make 1.2k plat from trading after that...

...all of which I then shelled on cosmetics 20 minutes later 😕 

[RX-3DR]

Another part of the reason why they got rid of the old Void Keys for the current Relic system is likely to remove the exaggerated value of endless type keys. The old Void Keys basically made the Endless stuff extremely easy to farm as a single Survival/Defense key from a single person is worth an infinite value while keys for Exterminate and Mobile Defense is only worth 1 item. The current system values all relics equally, which levels out the odds for each individual relic to a certain reward.

[Genesix6]

The new void system is good, but I have a problem because Relics such as lith forced you to do old mission, like why? I don't wanna fight against enemies that is lvl 10

 

[Loswaith]

The key to the current system is it generally feels better (for the most part) due to added player agency.

Overall it is actually mathematically worse (if not in a group of 4 identical relics) or about the same (with 4 identical relics), but it feels better due to some level of player agency the previous version didn't have (it is still heavily based on luck however).

The grind has just moved away from getting the reward (trying for the prime) to setting up to get the reward (gathering relics and/or traces with no chance of reward).

The interesting bit is even a radiant relic hasn't really changed much in the rarity tiering. Commons are still most likely as a whole, rares still least likely.  Individually Uncommons and Commons swap in rarity once you go radiant, but Rares are still the least likely.

Possible ways to make it better:
Trace Gain: let players collect additional reactants over 10 each one giving an additional trace (cap it at 30 if need be, 60 boosted).  This gives reasons to play longer and help those that arrive later to the mission, while slightly reducing the pre-grind.  All in all about halving the needed pre-grind missions.

Relic Gain: Spread out relics more. So rather than having 10+ individual relics in 20+ locations it would be better to have 3-4 individual relics in 5 locations (like the fissure missions this adds some forced diversity with improving the ability to gain specific relics). Thus reducing the pre-grind for specific relics.

Syndicate Relic Bundles: These should really be giving one relic of each tier. The current break down of how they give relics is still based around when void keys were a thing. It made sense for the keys (as rarity of key mattered to the rewards), but now given how all tiers of relics are essentially interchangeable, making tier rarity irrelevant to the reward.

Vaulted Relics: Some indication to show at a glance if the individual relic is vaulted, or even those that are not vaulted (as they are fewer in number).  Perhaps even ways to reward Vaulted relics (maybe a 5% chance on a syndicate bundles to get a random vaulted relic, to show that syndicate operatives have been collecting them all along).

Edited January 24, 2019 by Loswaith

[GinKenshin]

6 hours ago, Legion-Shields said:

Why did they change it so we can farm prime parts in places other than the Void in the first place? I don't understand why they couldn't simply change how relics work without having to change the tilesets too.

1- because playing in the void for the 893207 time is boring as hell, even if it's beautiful as hell, which doesn't save it from that happening. It's one of the factors that made the farm so damn boring

2- you have all these tilesets and maps your devs worked on which see next to no use, so it'll give us a breathe of fresh air to see and play in different maps and locations while we're farming for the same thing 

3- it's not like the possibility isn't there anymore, you can still do fissures in the void provided they appear there, though I don't know why you would because it's confusing as hell to know which are the REAL corrupted

Funnily enough, all these Qs are answered in the devstream they talked about these changed in, you can go back to it if you want to hear it from their own mouths. If you don't agree well that's not their problem anymore  

[Xzorn]

When you compare 3k Keys to 3k Relics the reason becomes pretty clear.

Keys never lost their value. Relics on the other hand have a shelf life and eventually degrade to being worth little more than 10 Ducats. I myself have around 2k vaulted Relics I'll never find groups to Radshare with and over time the perk of 34% probably Radshare dissolves compared to using a single Key for 24+ rotations.

The new system prevents hoarding and really nothing more.

The concept of "Exploding the Void" for a variety of mission types never really happened. There's only a select few missions types per Tier and that's never been expanded on. Those who like the new system, fine. Those who like the old system, fine. Saying one is better than the other though, least from a non-financial perspective is simply preference.

I miss the right of passage the Void had and it's semi end-game feel. Primes are now mid-tier as a result. I also miss the interest the community had for Endurance runs back in those days as well. I wish T3 Void Survival haddn't been a casualty of the Relic system since currently there's no old-school Void Survival in the game. It's T4 MoT with it's obnoxious 3x damage multiplier or T2 which lacks Nullifiers and Bombards.

[spyroxion]

Main thing I don't like in current system that only Axi relics are higher lvl and a bit more fun, then you have some relics like Lith where you have to do lvl 5 missions. I think that there should be an option to do Lith, Neo etc relics starting from lvl 50. I'm sorry but I didn't grind my behind off to run boring lvl 5 missions and it doesn't really make sense to me as to why primed stuff that needs MR14 to use are under lvl 5 missions, it's just plain boring

[FlusteredFerret]

Well I wasn't around for the "old void" but can't say I have many complaints with the current system. I'm able to get what I want most of the time and if I don't get a specific part / BP I'm after, I can just sell whatever I end up with for ducats.

 

[torint_man]

Sure, if you calc all the math out, the new is worse than the old if you don't have 3 pals doing the exact same thing as you. However, the math fundamentally neglects how the relic system works in practice. Assuming a new player that is starting with nothing, it goes like this ideally: Player goes through half the starchart, has a dozen lith and meso relics, then cracks all of them while pubbing (you'd be stupid not to). It's quite likely after that they will have a large assortment of prime parts. If you do the math while assuming all pub players don't refine their relics, they will probably have 2 rares, over a dozen uncommons, and a total of 24 prime parts. It's quite likely they have all but one part for multiple prime sets and can work from there. The weakest link here is the relic acquisition rate, and the fact that acquiring a specific part in a specific relic and having none of that relic can be hellish at times. 

Ultimately, the fact you can pub fissures and leech off of random peoples rewards is the saving grace of the relic system. Given enough time pubbing fissures, you WILL get several full or one part missing sets, no traces necessary.

There's also the complaint regarding void trace acquisition rate. When you do an endless fissure, you gain boosters that apply to the mission every relic you crack, being +25% affinity, credits, resources (applies to traces), resource drop rate, then a refined relic, cycling over until you have double everything and a free radiant relic every 5 relics. A 125 minute survival gives you over 700 traces on average. Who said that there was no incentive to go long into endless? (Also, in all likelihood, you'll get enough parts to sell in the process to buy a resource booster, and speaking from experience, the passive trace gain when you have a booster is sufficient for all practical purposes) The people who complain about it are the same people who have the relics to spare to do those endless runs (And afford a resource booster). Yes, there is the problem of there not always being a survival fissure of a given tier, but DE has it the way it is because they want us to play more than just survival when cracking relics.

The last part is what some people have a problem with, "DE has it the way it is because they want us to play more than just survival when cracking relics". Yes, it is, objectively speaking, less efficient for us to play certain gamemodes when cracking relics, but DE has decided it's more important for us to play in varied tilesets and gamemodes then allow us to be 100% efficient 100% of the time. Many a cynic would interpret that as "DE manipulating gameplay to induce scarcity and extend playtime to make money" and nothing more, but that simply isn't correct. I will never convince anyone who believes that otherwise (The quote might be true, but to dismiss the possibility of good intentions and design philosophy is foolish). There's also the whole thing about there being dozens of unique relics that effectively expire whereas the old system had a set amount of keys that kept their value. DE did this because they wanted to prevent stockpiling. In the old system, you could just get dozens of every key, wait until the next prime came out, then get the new prime without ever having to farm keys. Also, since vets often had hundreds of T1 and 2 keys, they were worthless to them when they got another one of them. Now, relics cycle so getting a relic of a certain tier isn't necessarily a trash drop due to their uniqueness, and their is always something new to farm. If you really want to stockpile for relics, you can stockpile syndicate trophies and get relic packs.

DE could design the system so players can be more efficient, but they don't because that's not the kind of game DE wants to make or even can make. This is really difficult to convey without making DE look scummy, but ultimately DE has to make the system such that it impedes progress. There are many suggestions that would make prime acquisition faster and, objectively speaking, better for players, but DE has to make it somewhat time consuming, maybe even infuriating for some at times, otherwise there is no game. It's fine to be frustrated, it's fine to be peeved and want an alternative system, but that is a necessary consequence to making a game that has an RNG reward system. 

[HellVOps]

Meh so many dishonest opinions, only reason the old system was loved :"more buck for your dollar".

Some of the old nodes are still there, nothing stopping you from playing them, but why should you when there is no worthwhile rewards there? And back again to old system rewards. 

I hated Tx defence, and every time they added something to it I was mostly forced to buy the parts unless I played it through sheer will.

I had around 200 defence keys when the new system hit, good riddance to them, at least I got something out of them in the end.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, HellVOps said:

Some of the old nodes are still there, nothing stopping you from playing them, but why should you when there is no worthwhile rewards there? And back again to old system rewards.

 

I want to play T3 Void Survival =/

Old system was also proven to be unfairly weighted thanks to certain community heroes finding the drop rates.

Now DE keeps a drop rate sheet to show they're being honest or because it's required by law in China. Take your pick.

[Helch0rn]

I like the new system because you can only find the void tileset pretty for so long. With relics I can farm whatever I want in any mission type I want and get to see all of the tilesets DE worked so hard to make.

[Lakais]

3 hours ago, Genesix6 said:

The new void system is good, but I have a problem because Relics such as lith forced you to do old mission, like why? I don't wanna fight against enemies that is lvl 10

 

 

2 hours ago, spyroxion said:

Main thing I don't like in current system that only Axi relics are higher lvl and a bit more fun, then you have some relics like Lith where you have to do lvl 5 missions. I think that there should be an option to do Lith, Neo etc relics starting from lvl 50. I'm sorry but I didn't grind my behind off to run boring lvl 5 missions and it doesn't really make sense to me as to why primed stuff that needs MR14 to use are under lvl 5 missions, it's just plain boring

I would like to point you both towards that little old forgotten corner of the Origin system called "Derelict". And most Dark Sectors too. But Derelict Survival, for example, starts at around level 20 and has Lith in A rotiation, Neo in B and Axi in C. There are some Endo and credit rewards, but the point still stands. 

And one of the key reasons, (this is to Spyroxion) I don't like the concept of artificial level increases is that it doesn't add anything to the game. Nothing has changed when the enemy level is 5, 50 or 150 when you have reached a stage of the game where this idea starts to have merit. Simply because your damage output is unsustainably high and playstyle is largely built around CC and Crit. Second issue is that it would cause further splintering of the community. Now I would agree to it if it was ONLY available as a solo/invite only option. 

[ranks21]

22 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Mot is still there, T4 Survival, T4 damage multiplier and all. You are free to go 239 hours with your besties. You aren't banging your head against the wall hoping you roll a useful thing like most any Prime part and not a 5 pack of gold cores.

Unlike you, I didn't go to the void for  rewards/ prime parts. I level my gears there and whatever I got in the process for how ever long I spent in a run was just pure bonus. now you can preach all you want about the new relic system which is far worse. 1 you have to get the relic, 2 you then have to collect enough traces, 3, exit that run then refine that relic to rare. 4, you then have to wait for the mission type of your liking for that relic. 5, having done all 4 of those steps for the rare part you wanted, you end up with a common part endo or forma.

compared to 1 get void key, 2 pick your mission type to use key, play for as long as you want to get as many parts or till the rare part you wanted falls with NO INTERUPTS> color me stupid but the old void is and will always be better.

I forgot to add >> the void is basically where all the lore of the game is based from, the relic system just doesn't fit in anywhere. Vor didn't have a "relic key" to power up the machine to open the void portal... he had a "VOID KEY"

Edited January 24, 2019 by ranks21

[Legion-Shields]

7 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

1- because playing in the void for the 893207 time is boring as hell, even if it's beautiful as hell, which doesn't save it from that happening. It's one of the factors that made the farm so damn boring

2- you have all these tilesets and maps your devs worked on which see next to no use, so it'll give us a breathe of fresh air to see and play in different maps and locations while we're farming for the same thing 

3- it's not like the possibility isn't there anymore, you can still do fissures in the void provided they appear there, though I don't know why you would because it's confusing as hell to know which are the REAL corrupted

Funnily enough, all these Qs are answered in the devstream they talked about these changed in, you can go back to it if you want to hear it from their own mouths. If you don't agree well that's not their problem anymore  

I don't really have time to sift through the devstreams any more, so I appreciate the response 🙂

[Legion-Shields]

7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 Those who like the old system, fine. Saying one is better than the other though, least from a non-financial perspective is simply preference.

I miss the right of passage the Void had and it's semi end-game feel.

this is exactly how I feel about it.

[Gamma745]

18 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

compared to 1 get void key, 2 pick your mission type to use key, play for as long as you want to get as many parts or till the rare part you wanted falls with NO INTERUPTS> color me stupid but the old void is and will always be better.

Really? I remembered it was more: farm one key, use that key to get a reward that COULD be Prime part, farm more key, use that key, repeat ad nauseum until RNG finally give what you want or you give up.

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

old system of getting prime parts
4 tier of towers with 7 differnt missions
derlict missions offering prime parts so thats another 6 missions
32 missions in total with certain items of needing outside info to know what you could get from each
new prime comes an old prime goes into vault, DE has to go through all 20 missions an add an remove items.

new system
have 4 tiers of fissures
ability to know what each relic holds an drop chances
ability to modify drop chance of whats in each relic
DE able to remove relics with vaulted prime items from drop tables an add in the new relics
ability to learn where certain relics can be farmed at

So you can see the new system is much easyier on DE's team as they dont have to tear out there hair an just preplan what parts will be in what relics

[Crewman82]

The old void was better in my opinion ,it's my favourite faction,so they need to keep that mission available to farm prime stuff at all times 

 

[Hypernaut1]

I don't care what fuzzy math some of you are using, it's far quicker to get prime parts with this new system.

I can even randomly run axi missions with any relic to get a specific part I need. I would go as far to say that randomly running lith/meso/axi missions without the necessary relic was quicker and gave me a better chance with someone elses relic droppingwhat I want, than running t4 survival did back then. 

Getting rid of mandatory 20-40 minute/wave endless runs alone makes this new system 10x better. 

Sure, I enjoyed it sometimes, but when you go a month without a rare drop and need to dedicate 1-2 hrs starting at one tileset a session to get chasis, it lost its charm fast. 

Ducat farming was irrelevant because they just adjusted Baro prices accordingly. More ducats simply mean higher Baro prices. 

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't care what fuzzy math some of you are using, it's far quicker to get prime parts with this new system.. 

 

Compare your gains playing Solo.

They based their numbers of key sharing when not all players were doing that.

DE forced the keyshare meta on it's players when some like myself could have cared less about wasting some keys and preferred to play Solo. Mostly to test builds.

[Hypernaut1]

33 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Compare your gains playing Solo.

They based their numbers of key sharing when not all players were doing that.

DE forced the keyshare meta on it's players when some like myself could have cared less about wasting some keys and preferred to play Solo. Mostly to test builds.

I don't play solo. 

As far a forcing key shares, I spend far less time in recruit chat now than I did back then. I haven't had to worry about meta frames or anxiety over  key thieves either. Current relic shares yield rare parts far faster than I remember with tower key share.