Everyone Shouldn't (Fully) Complete Everything

[seprent]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

Tbh, my opinion is that too many players are used to getting everything they want for little to no effort.  There's no mission I've seen that is hard even for noobs considering the huge number of players I've seen offering to carry low level players through what are considered the harder missions.  And for the vets, those harder missions aren't even challenging, they can pretty much all be done through normal gameplay we would have been doing anyway. 

Don't forget all the complaints about the old alert system.   The rng nature of it, not able to even see alerts if you hadn't unlocked that node.  That was unfair and this fixes that.   15 nitain for 45 wc's? Awesome, doable easily in a week which might have taken several weeks before.  Along the way you get slots, kuva, mods etc etc, also awesome, especially as most of the alerts are extremely easy to complete just by actually playing the game.

Imo most the complaints I've read seem to be from people but hurt at not having everything handed to them and actually having to play the game to get the rewards.   Boo hoo.  Name me a looters shooter that is free to play that hands out the top tier rewards to everyone without expecting players to actually commit to playing the game.  Want that umbra forma or armour set?  Play the game and earn it and stop expecting everything in the game to be easy and handed to you.

^ i have similar thoughts with this tenno it is in rant form so ill spoiler it if you want to read it so i dont take up a chunk of page

Spoiler

i think people have gotten to used to doing things that don't offer resistance (highest level alert i've seen 40-50 for a alt helmet.) Now that de is starting to give them resistance people are tossing the pitchforks like javelins that a co-op looter shooter game is asking them to do as its tags imply co-op with friends. Like that sortie challenge while people where shouting about how unfair it is i just messaged my friend an say "hey i need to do the sortie with you we will both get rep and the current sortie is real easy" then we did the sortie. De is giving tenno resistance in challenges that are non solo saying hey this game is a co-op game play with your friends (Apparently this is a unfair nono) and do a 1 hour kuva survival (also a nono but people have done this before a lot) and only harvest kuva so you walk away with 10k rep and with a booster 15,600 kuva (amount i got.) People complain they don't have enough kuva well now your given a challenge that lets you net kuva and a rank up in nightwave and this is a bad thing?  Oh its boring because people chose a combination of frames that make the mission easy and one requires a friend therefor the challenge is bad and shouldn't be a thing right how silly of DE not to think of the player meta of everything should be solo so you can turn a mission offering abit of resistance into a cake walk half the boredom imho is self imposed by people getting the most efficient frames/weapons together to do a task and do it with no setbacks because you can obtain so much power where everything becomes easy.

should you nerf em? nah some people get fun from efficiency more power to them if that's how they want to play the game but some people do the same thing because they don't really want to try then complain their maim build equinox that kills enemies a room and a half away is not being challenged it be because your not letting them your taking the path of least effort to the reward then complaining the ride was smooth and easy. another example would be the profit taker he gives you the resistance of use X element to hurt me in his last phase this is even though you can only use one and use your tenno to cycle it to one you want. But now apparently this mechanic doesn't make sense and should not exist even though its stated the orb is a combination of sentient and corpus tech thus giving it this resistant but since its gets in the way of people killing this for a reward it needs to go away so they can kill it faster reminds me of then the eidolon was effected by shield disruption and fuss some people threw when it was fixed because they hated operators and didn't want to use them and it was gating the ability to kill it. in the end its a bloody challenge its meant to offer resistance in some way DE know the power of the enemy is pointless since the player base will meta to make it easy so use time you cant make that go faster and this move to give resistance to the player i like it.

Personally wish people would be more constructive rather then going DE is x because of y and y is bad because of z and that's it ok you don't like it what you prefer instead then give them duel condition do one or the other one being harder but solo-able and one easier that requires a friend or something saying you don't like it and nothing else doesn't offer anything to how to fix it if you have a idea on how and think its bad say it anyway at-least then you can say you offered something to the table. Now if you excuse me im going to get my coffee and look at my nightwave challenges if you read this far thanks and have a nice day tenno

 

[SenorClipClop]

I mean, there's a huge part of the community that's been asking for a long time to have things that are kind of "exclusive", things that aren't just handed to every player that they need to go hard to achieve, things they can brag about. And agree with this or no, nothing like this can happen unless there are things in the game that can't be got by everyone for simply showing up.

The title of this thread is saying that everyone shouldn't fully complete everything, and that's kind of true looking at it from both angles. On one hand, the rewards that are possible to acquire have seemingly very steep requirements; on the other hand, the game is not expecting everyone to acquire them and has sort-of exclusive items, where your exclusivity is earned through continued gameplay and effort. This system is no way perfect, but there's also no way to make everyone happy here.

[(PSN)Firebrandd]

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Other than the 5 ayatan sculptures I haven't seen anything that was too unreasonable. 

The ayatan sculpture challenge is easy if you solo in missions that aren't designed for squad play (I consider survival, interception, etc. as designed for squad play). You have to be willing to take the time to search every single room and corner. It's easy to find them if you use Animal Instinct, Loot Detector, Master Thief, Scavenge, and something like Ignis Wraith that blasts enemies and containers all in one blast. Equip Vacuum and a mod with +punch through and you'll find the statues on your map as a openable  or lootable item that doesn't get picked up by Vacuum or won't break with melee slam or weapon damage. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by (PS4)Firebrandd

[fatpig84]

Newbies wont even need anything after rank 24 which is the last rank where Nightwave credits are given.
Newbies don't need Arcane energize (because it is only useful at R10, so you need to grind for 700 days or 10 seasons, why not buy it with plat instead) or Umbra forma anyway.

So the requirement is actually lower.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

Where did you get that idea? I very much think that Nightwave was designed with veterans explicitly in mind (and casuals, it is made for everyone), to give them something to go for on a weekly basis. Nightwave was not supposed to explicitly replace alerts, it is here to replace and improve on alerts. Anytime you rework something it would be a waste of time to just replace it. You want to also improve on it in some way. Isn't a system that encourages veterans to play and feel rewarded for being a veteran a good thing?

The problem being that alerts were really to serve as a means of providing stuff to newer players these days.

Mods, endo, credits... The newer player isn't going to see a ton of these in their early game because they just don't drop heavily anymore anywhere a newer player can safely reach.

Basically, Nightwave is fine as-is if the expectation is that there are only 2 planets on the star chart... Earth and Venus.

 

That said, I don't hate Nightwave... I think it's a nifty idea for folks who like rep grinds or have nothing better to do.

I do think it probably would have been better received had it been introduced as an augment to the existing Alert system as opposed to outright replacing it though.

 

[--END--Rikutatis]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

A lot of the “elite” challenges simply are not completeable for casual/new players.

Is this really a problem? Why does everything need to be accessible and doable by new players? New players already have hundreds if not thousands hours worth of content to go through, they don't need to absolutely complete 100% of Nightwave and grab that umbral forma and nightwolf armor. There's so much more stuff in the game for them to do. Then they can work towards improving their builds, getting more experience, so that when the new season of Nightwave comes in a couple months they can start doing the elite challenges then. That's the point, these challenges are meant to be elite, for people who are willing to put in the effort and have the gear and builds to handle them. The game has been severely lacking in that aspect for a long time now, finally we have something and we're supposed to dumb it down because new/casual players can't complete it?

Also you only need around 65% of the alerts to max rank with the Nightwave, as a casual player you could skip 2 of the elite challenges every week and still have ample room to complete it. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by --END--Rikutatis

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

8 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Is this really a problem? Why does everything need to be accessible and doable by new players? New players already have hundreds if not thousands hours worth of content to go through, they don't need to absolutely complete 100% of Nightwave and grab that umbral forma and nightwolf armor. There's so much more stuff in the game for them to do. Then they can work towards improving their builds, getting more experience, so that when the new season of Nightwave comes in a couple months they can start doing the elite challenges then. That's the point, these challenges are meant to be elite, for people who are willing to put in the effort and have the gear and builds to handle them. The game has been severely lacking in that aspect for a long time now, finally we have something and we're supposed to dumb it down because new/casual players can't complete it?

Also you only need around 65% of the alerts to max rank with the Nightwave, as a casual player you could skip 2 of the elite challenges every week and still have ample room to complete it. 

One of the issue is that the system takes things that new players need and locks it behind something only meant for Elites. How many Elite/Vets players need a heat sword? Dark dagger? Honestly how many of them need the nitan? Potatoes? These are things needed by newer players to help progress threw the game.

The point of this was to remove the Alert system that was needed for new players and replace it with something that was suppose to be better for both new and old players alike but in doing so they have shafted the former in favor of the later who are already saying its too easy and that new/causal players need to stop complaining. It's a no win situation.

The problem is that by skipping the elite challenges a new player can only rank twice a week meaning that it takes 2 weeks to get the first set of wolf creds that are needed to buy the aura mods, Vauban, weapons, and nitian that are import for new players to have and use. That's if they complete everything else, many of them will not have the skills and time to complete several of the weekly challenges or maybe even a daily challenge here and there meaning that it takes them longer to get the resources that they need. In a 10 week event taking 2-3 weeks to even get the first set of creds means that you might not be able to get what you want/need before the reset and next event. 

That 65% number may seam like you can skip a lot but with the point spread it is incredibly deceptive. Elites are 5k, weekly are 3k and your dailys are 1k standing. Further that 65% only equates to skipping each of your dailies. So if a casual player misses a few days and finds themselves unable to do all their elites/weekly then they are SOL for the event.

 

[Oreades]

17 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Also you only need around 65% of the alerts to max rank with the Nightwave, as a casual player you could skip 2 of the elite challenges every week and still have ample room to complete it. 

 

Course they could have avoided the whole uncertainty issue in the first place by making weekly challenges completeable at any time after they are issued until the end of the event. Which wouldn't have changed the "challenge" or "effort" people put into the event but it would have made the general experience arguably better. 

It also would have saved them the ire of people who have IRL things come up that prevent them from playing for long enough that there was no way for them to get the Tier 29-30 rewards. Because you could always theoretically catch up. Where as with the current state of the event you could easily find yourself in a situation where you're just far enough behind that you're essentially locked out of the end tier rewards and only doing it for the Nitain because they removed the old Alerts system. 

Which means there is also no really good way to tell how many people wash out of the Reward Tiers because they keep playing the challenges because the Alerts system is gone. I'm kind of expecting "I'm locked out of the end tier rewards" to become more and more common a complain as the event goes on and it's a problem that really never needed to be a problem in the first place. 

[Ketec]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)Firebrandd said:

The ayatan sculpture challenge is easy if you solo in missions that aren't designed for squad play (I consider survival, interception, etc. as designed for squad play). You have to be willing to take the time to search every single room and corner. It's easy to find them if you use Animal Instinct, Loot Detector, Master Thief, Scavenge, and something like Ignis Wraith that blasts enemies and containers all in one blast. Equip Vacuum and a mod with +punch through and you'll find the statues on your map as a openable  or lootable item that doesn't get picked up by Vacuum or won't break with melee slam or weapon damage. 

It isn't about "easy" or not knowing how - it's about time.
You get one weekly quest for it. Still, need 4 more.

Running mission after mission looking into every corner where perhaps every 10th has a ayatan is a massive time sink and a lot of people playing got work and life.
Add that to the timesinks of other challenges on top of doing any other activity you would need - like faction rep or affinity or relics etc.

These missions eat up roughly 75% of my playable time weekly.

[Melanholic7]

3 часа назад, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru сказал:

Most complainers don't want a challenge at all.
While some content might be boring for one person, and fun for the other neither is impossible or required.

shouldnt they do like (just an example) “week quest : kill 3 eidolons OR complete 60min kuva survivle”? so everyone will be happy - guys who love eidolong and guys who prefer kuva farming. Just an example of vsriants, but they give people to choose how to complete wuest doing thing they like more

[Skaleek]

I've fully completed everything in Warframe and honestly it's my attempt to stay "ahead of the curve" when it comes to grind, else i will feel overwhelmed and give up. Everyone has their own reasons.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@DrBorris

The difference is that you can complete 10 syndicate missions over the course of the week when you have time with the only restriction being the number of syndicate mission you have available each day, whereas the 60 minute survival needs to be done in a single session.

In the end we need fewer elite challenges and more daily ones. Then players wouldn't feel bad when they can't complete the elite because they have more rep available from the dailies. Right now the dailies account for 7k rep total while a single elite is 5k. The current system is just way too top heavy 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 hour ago, Melanholic7 said:

shouldnt they do like (just an example) “week quest : kill 3 eidolons OR complete 60min kuva survivle”? so everyone will be happy - guys who love eidolong and guys who prefer kuva farming. Just an example of vsriants, but they give people to choose how to complete wuest doing thing they like more

I think the equivalent would be asking players to complete a 30 wave defense or 15 round interception.
There's an average amount of time those activities take to reach the same length in time.

The challenge of this bounty of your ability to endure and survive. I'm certain if people whine about it long enough DE will inevitably change it to 20 minute survival instead. Justt be vocal if you care that much. 

However there is a clear pattern that anytime something proves to be "difficult" at any level, players have grown accustomed to complaining and blaming the devs rather than practicing or "getting gud". I'm not saying this is one of those circumstances however there seems to be no distinction between players getting upset because something is truly unfair, vs players wanted things to be easy and catered to them. 

At the end of the day, DE should just do whatever makes them the most money. I don't even care anymore.

[DrBorris]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

@DrBorris

The difference is that you can complete 10 syndicate missions over the course of the week when you have time with the only restriction being the number of syndicate mission you have available each day, whereas the 60 minute survival needs to be done in a single session.

In the end we need fewer elite challenges and more daily ones. Then players wouldn't feel bad when they can't complete the elite because they have more rep available from the dailies. Right now the dailies account for 7k rep total while a single elite is 5k. The current system is just way too top heavy 

But... but... that is not the point, I can't help but feel like you just skipped the entire post and went to the final three sentences. If you make Nightwave easier to "fully complete" then you are reducing the value of being a veteran. If you make something rewarding for veterans you are making sacrifices for new players.

What you suggest, putting more emphasis on simple dailies, makes the gear grind even less important (and more emphasis on dailies also makes it harder for people who are only to play once or twice a week). Would you not agree that there should be more things that make the gear grind relevant? Or maybe you think Warframe should be targeted mostly on casuals, which is a fair thing to think, but that is something you have to acknowledge.

 

And I should not have to clarify this, but apparently I do, but this does not mean that I think that the 60 min survival stuff should stay. This thread was not meant to talk about the specifics of Nightwave, I just wanted to make a point that when you ask for one thing, there are consequences that you may not like.

Spoiler

And this is only anecdotal, but for me the 10 syndicate missions will be far more "tedious" than an hour long survival. My least favorite content in Warframe is repetitive speed running missions, I would personally much rather sit down for an hour long mission than play a bunch of boring speed runs even if they are spread out over a few days. Different opinions exist and different people like different things.

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Ok so I see a lot of people pulling the card of "new players want to get the exclusive items for the season".

Here's the thing, I've been playing since 2013. I worked my way through the game earning each item(took 2 years) and for the longest time there were exclusive items like Snipetron Vandal(I wasn't geared enough at the time) some dex items, old primes etc that I didn't have and didn't have any way of getting. Here's the damndest thing... I have them now. Because instead of throwing my toys out the pram and acting like a spoilt brat I waited until they came around on rotation(project undermine), JUST LIKE A LOT OF OTHER VETERANS DID. 

So I'm sorry but this entitlement is just a joke. You want the rewards from the season? EARN THEM. People complain about doing a 1 hour kuva survival, either it's too hard or its too boring. I'm willing to bet half the people who claimed it's boring failed the mission and the other half couldn't be bothered. People queue up for Eidolon hunts all the time that last 50 minutes. But apparently a 60 minute mission is far too long...

Here's the reality. They consider the rewards from eidolon hunts worthwhile and they don't consider the nightwave ones worth the investment. Well that's an easy solution, DON'T invest your time in them cos clearly you don't value that exclusive item that much, so don't kick up a fuss about not being able to get it.

Try this, go to work and tell your boss working today isn't worth your time and you'd rather go fishing and get paid for it. See how far that gets you.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Zilchy

[Vox_Preliator]

Well said.

The arguments against hour-long survivals should be "It's inconvenient, annoying, and just plain too long for a single sitting" more than "New players won't get everything unless they try really hard."  It's as if we've never had events before or something, there are quite a few things a new player can't get at all right now, no matter how hard they try.  And a new player would easily reach at least rank 10 or so by the end of the event, netting them a couple slots and other goodies.

A NEW player has absolutely no need for bulk Kuva, niche Mods, Arcane Energize, and Umbral Forma.  Gifts of the Lotus still exist so the most reliable sources for potatoes are still around.  I'd argue the only thing the rewards need is to front-load Wolf Creds rather than spread them out, move more of the fancy stuff (Cosmetics, Arcanes, Umbral Forma) to the back and the more mundane but useful stuff (Slots, Creds, Regular Forma) to the front.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Vox_Preliator

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

43 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

But... but... that is not the point, I can't help but feel like you just skipped the entire post and went to the final three sentences. If you make Nightwave easier to "fully complete" then you are reducing the value of being a veteran. If you make something rewarding for veterans you are making sacrifices for new players.

What you suggest, putting more emphasis on simple dailies, makes the gear grind even less important (and more emphasis on dailies also makes it harder for people who are only to play once or twice a week). Would you not agree that there should be more things that make the gear grind relevant? Or maybe you think Warframe should be targeted mostly on casuals, which is a fair thing to think, but that is something you have to acknowledge.

 

And I should not have to clarify this, but apparently I do, but this does not mean that I think that the 60 min survival stuff should stay. This thread was not meant to talk about the specifics of Nightwave, I just wanted to make a point that when you ask for one thing, there are consequences that you may not like.

  Reveal hidden contents

And this is only anecdotal, but for me the 10 syndicate missions will be far more "tedious" than an hour long survival. My least favorite content in Warframe is repetitive speed running missions, I would personally much rather sit down for an hour long mission than play a bunch of boring speed runs even if they are spread out over a few days. Different opinions exist and different people like different things.

 

Dailies last for 72 hours though. So even if you miss 5 days that week you would get 4 days worth of dailies or 6 if the logins were spread out.

I think there is room for both. Even with 2-3X Dailies per day that is only 14-21k rep out of ~43k. So 33%-50% which means you still need weeklies or elites to make the 60-65% cutoff. The point being that you can encourage new players to work towards larger weekly challenges while also giving veteran players something to do other than busy work.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

10 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

A NEW player has absolutely no need for bulk Kuva, niche Mods, Arcane Energize, and Umbral Forma.  Gifts of the Lotus still exist so the most reliable sources for potatoes are still around.  I'd argue the only thing the rewards need is to front-load Wolf Creds rather than spread them out, move more of the fancy stuff (Cosmetics, Arcanes, Umbral Forma) to the back and the more mundane but useful stuff (Slots, Creds, Regular Forma) to the front.

New players can sell most of those things for plat though. I agree with front loading wolf credits instead of the heavy back loading at tiers 31+.

It's a good system, it just needs to cater to both new and veteran players.

Edited March 5, 2019 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

New players can sell most of those things for plat though. I agree with front loading wolf credits instead of the heavy back loading at tiers 31+.

It's a good system, it just needs to cater to both new and veteran players.

The problem is, the more ppl complain, the more likely we're left with difficult challenges like "equip a melee weapon" and "complete a capture mission" instead of upping the ante and giving experienced players something to do. While I agree that wolf credits should be front loaded more and that they should also add forma blueprints to the credit offerings, I don't think every challenge should require no more than to have a pulse. ELITE challenges SHOULD be a challenge whether that challenge be endurance, speed, game mechanic knowledge etc. There is no reason why a new player should be able to complete every challenge without having to earn it like the experienced players did for years.

As it stands the entire week's challenges took 3 hours and more challenge would be welcome but I understand the need to cater some of the challenges for everyone so I'm ok with half the challenges being a cakewalk that takes 2 minutes. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Zilchy

[fatpig84]

Actually these Nightwave challenges ain't that difficult.

Back in the day we had tactical alerts, that were melee only vs level 150 enemies at base. And enemies level up as it is a defense game and they were grineer, all hit scan. And Grineer snipers did not have that red laser telling you they were eyeballing you, so if you play a squishy like Nova, you actually had to keep an eye out because even a slowed level 160+ grineer sniper can still 1 shot you.

And the level 999 challenge, where people found out Ash and Frost rock those games hard. Or the challenge where every mission and enemy was a Manic.
Pre-nerfed Manics mind you, so they can bleed proc you nearly all the time. 

Players preserved and won through all of them, even the newbies then who are now the vets ingame.

Bottom line, we need more such tactical alerts into our regular content.
Push players harder out of their comfort zone, so they will actually get better in the game (through copious use of mechanics and teamwork) but DE has stopped tac alerts for a while. Similarly they removed Raids as well which require working more than 4 but at least Terry / Garry / Harry mitigated that somewhat.

I see Nightwave elite rewards as a way to "gently push" players to get out their comfort zones.
It is no tactical alert, but at least it rewards you for trying out harder content.
 

Edited March 5, 2019 by fatpig84

[-CdG-Zilchy]

5 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

Or the challenge where every mission and enemy was a Manic.

Pre-nerfed Manics mind you, so they can bleed proc you nearly all the time.
 

Operation Blackout, hell yes.

As for the rest of what you said, shutup and take my money. I agree 1000% 

[Obviousclone]

9 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

Newbies wont even need anything after rank 24 which is the last rank where Nightwave credits are given.
Newbies don't need Arcane energize (because it is only useful at R10, so you need to grind for 700 days or 10 seasons, why not buy it with plat instead) or Umbra forma anyway.

So the requirement is actually lower.

Kind of wish they put more of the nightwave creds earlier (taking them out of the deep end of the reward tier list), and put more of the cosmetics stuff later on.

 

The first 20k wolf reputation you earn aren't useful at all to a new player for gameplay. And getting 50 credits every week (at best) is a very slow trickle if the player has to buy things like Ceramic Dagger and Pangolin Sword which both cost 50 wolf credits each in addition to aura mods/vauban parts/nitain extract/potatos

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Obviousclone said:

Kind of wish they put more of the nightwave creds earlier (taking them out of the deep end of the reward tier list), and put more of the cosmetics stuff later on.

 

The first 20k wolf reputation you earn aren't useful at all to a new player for gameplay. And getting 50 credits every week (at best) is a very slow trickle if the player has to buy things like Ceramic Dagger and Pangolin Sword which both cost 50 wolf credits each in addition to aura mods/vauban parts/nitain extract/potatos

Credits get put in the starting tier and next thing you'll have is forum posts complaining they can't get the cosmetics.

[Sabremouse]

2 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

I see Nightwave elite rewards as a way to "gently push" players to get out their comfort zones.

Can confirm. Low ranked casual solo player with limited gear here and have completed my first sortie and ESO (by the skin of my teeth) thanks to Nightwave. A small victory in the bigger scheme but thrilling gaming nonetheless for not knowing if I could pull it off. Although I may not be up for every elite challenge I'm still on track to get my much coveted wolf armor and the harder content currently beyond me is just something to look forward to. I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out. To busy having a blast! Props to DE for.. well.. everything!

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Sabremouse said:

Can confirm. Low ranked casual solo player with limited gear here and have completed my first sortie and ESO (by the skin of my teeth) thanks to Nightwave. A small victory in the bigger scheme but thrilling gaming nonetheless for not knowing if I could pull it off. Although I may not be up for every elite challenge I'm still on track to get my much coveted wolf armor and the harder content currently beyond me is just something to look forward to. I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out. To busy having a blast! Props to DE for.. well.. everything!

Congrats on making lemonade when handed lemons. Many others could learn from this.