Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

[Nichivo]

The more I use the new melee 2.9. The more I miss playing Warframe. Inability to control when, or if I block, destroys some game play. Channel as a toggle makes me ill, I only need it for key attacks not everything. You all took a great system that could have been adjusted slightly, and tossed every monkey wrench you could find into it for some reason.😕

[Aekhon]

Just saw a dev topic about Wukong's upcoming rework that mentions melee 3.0.  I've stopped playing Warframe due to how awful melee is now and only occasionally check the forums (somehow, I keep hoping for a patch to address some or all of the issues listed here), so correct me if I am wrong, but is that the first mention of melee 3.0 from someone who works at DE since phase 1 was released? 

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong about this, but I have to change my earlier prediction about why DE is being silent on melee.  It looks like they're ignoring critical feedback here and just forging ahead with melee 3.0 as previously planned.  Why do I think that?  Why else would they mention making Wukong synergize more with melee 3.0 if their plans regarding melee had changed?

[Ham_Grenabe]

I'm not expecting anything but plowing ahead - DE doesn't walk back changes like this. They probably can't -- I suspect the sweeping nature of the changes meant it was a one-way road. 

[Obsidion]

Came back to the game after 4 months to realize that melee is unplayable now...

It's slow and breaks that fast peaced style of game...

Now people don't even use melee because it's more effective to use your gun.

You literally can't move when using melee.. i really love this game so i tried using the combos and all but god... It's to slow and less effective.

It takes me more time to kill the enemies and go to the next one because i have to wait for the animation to end.. wtf

I really love this game, that's why I'm trying different combos and weapons but it's the same thing...

Melee lost all purpose and now they encourage people to use maiming strike build...

[DreadWarlock]

On 2019-05-25 at 4:38 AM, DoomFruit said:

Nothing stopped me from inflicting status procs before. Evidently you've never seen the need to move around while fighting, otherwise you'd immediately see what the nerfs are.

Yes, but it doesn't have the status proc cancelling ability. It's also not as tanky as Wyrm Prime.

Except that the Heliocor is complete crap as an actual weapon when compared to the Lesion or Tonbo. Especially when we're forced to use stance melee. Stealth frames are also not very effective at defence-type missions, nor would they do particularly well against the new boss. It also does not solve the problem of having to remove the enemies once scanned.

Also note that NONE of this was a problem with the old melee system. It is now. More problems = worse than less problems. That should be obvious.

"Nothing stopped me from inflicting status procs before. Evidently you've never seen the need to move around while fighting, otherwise you'd immediately see what the nerfs are."

That's the biggest load of bull i've ever seen in this comment section.

If you cannot move under the current system that means you're just a mindless E spammer that that desn't know how to pull of the combos properly. If you really need mobility, Dodge roll and Bullet jumps are there for it, both can cancel certain melee animations, both give you decent mobility. I'll say more bullet jump allows you to connect from one combo to an air or slam attack granting you both mobility, control and allowing you to keep your combo meter. Yes there are more options than just spin attacks. Rather I'd ask you how is it taht you get locked in place?

Also, no you didn't have the status procing capabilites they have now. Changing weapons to melee used to be an obligatory 3 second interval, slow weapons that rely on berserker would let the proc go away before you could even land the first hit, fast weapons could make use of it but you'd have like 4 seconds of proc? Now you can simply refresh procs and continue combos from where you left off.

"Yes, but it doesn't have the status proc cancelling ability. It's also not as tanky as Wyrm Prime."

My sentinels rarely ever die, Sorry but I really can't relate to you guys in this aspect

"Except that the Heliocor is complete crap as an actual weapon when compared to the Lesion or Tonbo. Especially when we're forced to use stance melee. Stealth frames are also not very effective at defence-type missions, nor would they do particularly well against the new boss. It also does not solve the problem of having to remove the enemies once scanned."

Ivara exists, she's both a stealth frame and good at removing enemies, what is your excuse?

"Also note that NONE of this was a problem with the old melee system. It is now. More problems = worse than less problems. That should be obvious."

That's the entire point, it's not a problem now. It's a problem for people who always complain about changes and don't adapt to any situations, not a problem for anyone else. Also what kind of F¨%$D Up content are you playing that you cannot use Heliocor as a weapon? There's literally no content up to level 100 where Heliocor is actually a bad weapon.

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by DreadWarlock

[DoomFruit]

4 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

If you cannot move under the current system that means you're just a mindless E spammer that that desn't know how to pull of the combos properly. If you really need mobility, Dodge roll and Bullet jumps are there for it, both can cancel certain melee animations, both give you decent mobility. I'll say more bullet jump allows you to connect from one combo to an air or slam attack granting you both mobility, control and allowing you to keep your combo meter. Yes there are more options than just spin attacks. Rather I'd ask you how is it taht you get locked in place?

You are missing the point yet again. Why should I even have these movement-pausing animations in the first place? Explain the problem with melee strikes that do not interfere with your motion (like quick melee). Justify taking them away in favour of attacks which actively get in my way and override my movement control input.

This mobility you describe I already had. I never had a problem with getting between enemies to hit them. I'm referring to moving around freely while swinging. Things like positioning your current target between you and a freshly appeared enemy while in mid-swing. Or something like chasing a running target while still striking them.

How do I get locked in place? That's pretty easy. Take out a polearm, any one of them, and move forward while attacking. Notice how your character gets glued into position

4 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

Also, no you didn't have the status procing capabilites they have now. Changing weapons to melee used to be an obligatory 3 second interval, slow weapons that rely on berserker would let the proc go away before you could even land the first hit, fast weapons could make use of it but you'd have like 4 seconds of proc? Now you can simply refresh procs and continue combos from where you left off.

I don't know what you did to your weapons before that made them incapable of inflicting status procs, but my Lesion was extremely effective at spreading slash, viral and electric. Likewise, my Corinth's explosion, radiation and viral are completely unchanged. I never once explicitly equipped my melee weapon, I don't know why you saw the need to sit through a weapon change animation in order to swing your sword.

If you're talking about switching between gunfire and melee, I never had a problem with that before either. Try alt-firing your weapon when you've just used a melee strike. DE have actively made the game less fluid.

8 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

My sentinels rarely ever die, Sorry but I really can't relate to you guys in this aspect

AOE blasts (of which there are a lot in this game) hurt sentinels, and Helios again still cannot remove status procs on me. Wyrm has more utility in gameplay.

9 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

That's the entire point, it's not a problem now. It's a problem for people who always complain about changes and don't adapt to any situations, not a problem for anyone else. Also what kind of F¨%$D Up content are you playing that you cannot use Heliocor as a weapon? There's literally no content up to level 100 where Heliocor is actually a bad weapon.

So, if I cut off one of your arms, the loss of functionality you suffer is your fault for not adapting to the situation? Because that's what the situation is right now.

Compared to the Tonbo (or even Lesion), the Heliocor has crap range and is impact-based. Its moveset is also worse, covering less area with its swings. And this was with quick melee. Now that we're forced to use stances, it's even worse.

And again, this problem is not limited to scanners. Try mining or fishing. You'll get interrupted constantly by enemies that need to die. Normally I'd sword them, but this idiotic forced equip system means that you then have to go and manually get the spear or drill out again. This gets incredibly annoying. The game is actively getting in my way where it didn't used to do this before.

 

[George_PPS]

9 hours ago, Akura-archangel said:

Today I tried to play with only melee weapon - Furax. Well..........it's unplayable. Painful. I try to make some combos with pushing block buttons, but my Saryn try to block every f...n bullet! I can't do more then 2-3 strikes. And Furax is speed enough weapon. And what about some hammers? Or big swords? This weapon maded not for beautiful to hang in the back. This for battle! I want to CAN just changing my weapon to some Jat Kittag and comfortable beat my enemies by their faces, with pleasure. Now I always feel uncomfortable when mission end. I feel that I lost something. I feel that something was stealed from me. DE, you had good beautiful and variable melee system. Now it's not. I see very little people who use melee now. Your experiment just cutted that element from the game.

A lot more people previously main guns are using melees now as it’s much faster to switch. But I agree some change should be added. If you use all weapons and take some time, you will get used to the changes. 

[(PSN)GrandisSupernus]

On 2019-04-09 at 7:17 PM, Maxim_M_Payne said:

THE. OLD. SYSTEM. WORKED. FINE.

There was no reason to gut melee. Removing player control of their own damn block, and removing the ability to aim-glide mid-air, even in melee, was an outright sin. Stances don't work. Warframe just isn't Warframe.

And now, you're blatantly ignoring players when we tell you this is a downgrade, all to keep pushing Melee 2.9 as some glorious new perfection; so clearly this is some staff member's pet project. I'm gonna be frank: it's a diseased and miserable pet, it will never get better, and you should put it down while it's still a juvenile. 

How prophetic these words now seem. I'm just getting so tired of repeating myself. So many people have come here relating the same issues and the same handful keep trying to convince everyone that the new system is great and that we're just stupid for not realising that and accepting it. If we're not supposed to give any feedback and quietly bow our heads and adapt to any and all changes that are forced upon us, why would DE even ask for feedback in the first place?

My ammo counter is still missing most of the time, because I have to stop and aim my currently equipped gun to make it re-appear (which I can't easily do in a pitched battle). Once again, my scanners, mining lasers and other tools get auto-unequipped if I make the mistake of daring to fight off an enemy or break a nearby box! I thought that had been fixed! The animations for many different weapon type stances have full stops and long pauses that interrupt when I'm trying to kill many enemies quickly. I get stun-locked by my own stupid auto-block that doesn't even block much, leaving me unable to counterattack for a precious second or two in a game in which quick kills can be the difference between life and death. Certain Exalted weapons are almost as much of a hindrance as a help now... god. Just... read my old posts on the topic, because all of the same issues are still present.

For a short while I was feeling like maybe this wasn't so bad, that maybe I was getting used to it... but then I noticed that, subconsciously, I had abandoned whole classes of melee weapons and was only using slide attacks because the stupid Stances wouldn't trigger if I just did that. I only use 2 or 3 out of the nearly 80 melee weapons I have! That's only 4%! And all those slide attacks are wreaking havoc on my wrist, so I actually had to stop playing Warframe altogether for a while to give my wrist a break. It's a nightmare, and this game that used to be so fun to play just... isn't. This is exactly why I was terrified when Melee 3.0 was announced. because primaries and secondaries had gone through changes that made their level of utility go up and down, but no matter what happened to guns at least I had my melee to fall back on if the weapon I brought wasn't performing how I had hoped. Now I just dare not use melee at all most of the time. So I just play other games instead.

[SilviaS12]

Time to uninstall, this new update destroyed the game end of story. The forums is my new warframe now, particularly this thread. 

[Thrymm]

There are some good points on here about things that should probably be looked, at in particular these seem like items of interest to me:

1. Like the way the switch mechanic works with mining guns and fishing spears the switch is now extremely clumsy, to the point that it seems more like a bug than feature.

2. Active blocking should be looked at, since we essentially can't do it anymore.  If this is a thing that's going away, the mods that direct the playstyle toward using this should be changed at the same time so that they can be usable, rather than just leaving a non-functional clump in our mod builds.  While I'd never really mastered manual blocking personally, I can see the great detriment some players must feel because of this oversight.

3.  With the constant weapon switching, weapon info displays can be clumsy or disorienting.  Consider having the melee weapon combo counter "always on", with the ranged weapon ammo count also on.  Consider bolding the currently used weapon, with the other displaying in a smaller font or something.

4.  For some weapons, using the mod combos instead of a quick melee has been a blessing.  For far too many, the mod combos are a direct detriment to fluid gameplay.  Please consider shaping this up, it's much more apparent with the current system changes.  On a related note, outdated melee weapons are now much more glaringly obviously obsolete than they where in the past because they come to the forefront more often.

Overall, I like it.  It's been a little while, and after adjusting I'm finding myself using melee much more because I can monitor and maintain my combo count better.  I like launching into a combo, relying primarily on my melee and flipping the ranged weapon out for a quick tap, then right back to it.  The fluid weapon change dynamic has also breathed pleasant life into weapon reload and damage boost on weapon switch type mods.  In addition, for me personally, I like the passive block dynamic.  Simply having the presence of mind to draw my weapon now yields real defense and even affects my weapon choices on occasion, something I hadn't brought into the mix in the past.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

Just checking in to see if anything had been done to fix or even revert some of these changes and I thought i'd point out that you could in the old system make a keybind to go into melee without holding down weapon switch, it was still kind of slow but not as slow as the hold down, it would would have been miles better to just speed up that animation rather than this semi-melee mode we have right now. 

Also for those people trying to convince us that the new system is good because it does away with quick melee, I kind of agree with the reason but not the conclusion, quick melee had limited use but it had the added benefit of not doing this soft mode switch into melee, if you could have the full strength of melee in the quick melee without any kind of switch that would have been a good change. By that I mean press the button and you do your attacks but then switch back automatically like the old quick melee, without interrupting the flow of combat and having the full melee mode continue to be a separate button.

Anyway, DE for the love of god, give us full control back, this half melee mode, automatic blocking and toggled channel version of melee does not work well for me and many others.

[JujuHex]

Everything about the old system was better.

The ability to quick melee was a plus. Ask any martial arts expert: Flashy moves will get you killed. For the most part, you use the same two or three bread and butter moves that are effective, yes, just like in 2D fighting games like Street Fighter pretty much. This doesn't mean that combos aren't or weren't good, just some stances needed their combos reworked because they were clunky and impractical, thats all.

Enforced auto-blocking without an option to opt-out of it is downright insulting to people who enjoyed being engaged and in control of melee combat.
Having to unequip your primary and secondary to achieve this is also pretty condescending. "You wanted full control melee? Alright let me take those guns from you."  No.

The whole "Gun and Blade" Flow mechanic is annoying to say the least, and it killed on-demand channeling. I despise toggle channeling, it is clumsy and I would dare say that almost no one channels now. I want to be able to channel on-demand with LMB again.

Aimed Ground Slam:  This is the only thing that is worth keeping from this failed experiment of 2.999...

The only real problem with melee was [Maiming Strike] and Rivens with that effect, the fact that slide attacks deal increased damage, and because of this, the fact that people abuse macros to bot-slide to the win. 

That was the only real problem with melee, it was a small change that could fix almost everything, but instead we got this Devil May Cry Blade and Soul fiasco.

Edited June 15, 2019 by JujuHex
Forma

[Akura-archangel]

2 часа назад, JujuHex сказал:

Everything about the old system was better.

The ability to quick melee was a plus. Ask any martial arts expert: Flashy moves will get you killed. For the most part, you use the same two or three bread and butter moves that are effective, yes, just like in 2D fighting games like Street Fighter pretty much. This doesn't mean that combos aren't or weren't good, just some stances needed their combos reworked because they were clunky and impractical, thats all.

Enforced auto-blocking without an option to opt-out of it is downright insulting to people who enjoyed being engaged and in control of melee combat.
Having to unequip your primary and secondary to achieve this is also pretty condescending. "You wanted full control melee? Alright let me take those guns from you."  No.

The whole "Gun and Blade" Flow mechanic is annoying to say the least, and it killed on-demand channeling. I despise toggle channeling, it is clumsy and I would dare say that almost no one channels now. I want to be able to channel on-demand with LMB again.

Aimed Ground Slam:  This is the only thing that is worth keeping from this failed experiment of 2.999...

The only real problem with melee was [Maiming Strike] and Rivens with that effect, the fact that slide attacks deal increased damage, and because of this, the fact that people abuse macros to bot-slide to the win. 

That was the only real problem with melee, it was a small change that could fix almost everything, but instead we got this Devil May Cry Blade and Soul fiasco. 

Want to say only that if you even unequip your main and secondary weapon AUTOBLOCKING WILL STAY ANYWAY. Even in this way melee stay unplayable.

[SilviaS12]

"Please redirect all feedback to our Mega-thread:" (the one they totally ignore and hide away in the way back corner in the closet under a tile in a locked box)

[DoomFruit]

12 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

"Please redirect all feedback to our Mega-thread:" (the one they totally ignore and hide away in the way back corner in the closet under a tile in a locked box)

Don't worry, they'll keep reminding you of how obnoxious this new melee system is by setting "mine X gems" and "catch X fish" nightwave challenges so that the nice new faulty game mechanics can once again constantly and actively get in your way. They might forget about it, but don't worry - they won't let that happen to us. After all, nothing says "smooth combat flow" like having to manually take our your spear or drill again after every single time you swing your sword.

[Sikelh]

9 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Don't worry, they'll keep reminding you of how obnoxious this new melee system is by setting "mine X gems" and "catch X fish" nightwave challenges so that the nice new faulty game mechanics can once again constantly and actively get in your way. They might forget about it, but don't worry - they won't let that happen to us. After all, nothing says "smooth combat flow" like having to manually take our your spear or drill again after every single time you swing your sword.

Or trying to glide with your melee out either toward an enemy or for precise platforming and then suddenly guns out and in full zoom. Because tunnel vision is great for that right?

[NasiTempe]

Malee phase 1 is improverment in my opinion. but there is something lack in this system.

1. Being awkward using channeling because blocking mechanic being automatic, its drain energy so fast. Unless i keep switcing weapon or turn off/on channeling, thats totaly painful to do.

2. I cant blocking while gliding anymore because its atomatically switch to gun, and its cancel channeling. thats totaly annoy me to keep press channeling button after gliding.

I know most of people doesnt like using channeling because that less efectiveness. I hope channeling system will be improve when melee 3.0 realese. I have some suggestions :

1. Make all channeling mod more effective. Give some love i mean.

2. Make [reach] mod being channel only and the range base one fixed lenght instead percentage weapon lenght and make it has more flashy energy wave effect like excalibur 4 maybe. I think [primed reach] is cheapest way to win right now. I think more power need more cost. its need a bit nerf i guess.

[vaarnaaarne]

Vast majority of melee weapons have simply nonviable range right now, even without the nerfs to sprinting during combos, making Reach channel only is simply a suggestion that would leave people even fewer melee weapons than they already do.

Making Reach provide a fixed range increase instead of a % would be a huge improvement to a lot of melee weapons, as long as the improvement isn't too negligible.

[dirtysmile]

I'm quite happy with the regular melee, but channeling still feels like a waste of time and mod space. I don't think anyone is realistically using it that much so I would suggest it be removed.

[SilviaS12]

On 2019-06-16 at 9:29 PM, Sikelh said:

Or trying to glide with your melee out either toward an enemy or for precise platforming and then suddenly guns out and in full zoom. Because tunnel vision is great for that right?

This is one of my biggest issues out of the lot. For my play style it is nothing more than auto switch to guns when I don't even want to use guns, so it becomes, do not glide at all or auto switch to guns.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

9 hours ago, dirtysmile said:

I'm quite happy with the regular melee, but channeling still feels like a waste of time and mod space. I don't think anyone is realistically using it that much so I would suggest it be removed.

If you want to survive high level melee without cheesing it with maiming strike builds lifestrike and therefore channelling is a requisite, otherwise you will end up dying since you can't rely on cover or positioning as much as a ranged weapon user can. Removing this would make melee nearly useless in high level content outside of EB and hysteria, although even EB benefits from lifestrike greatly.

[dirtysmile]

19 hours ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

If you want to survive high level melee without cheesing it with maiming strike builds lifestrike and therefore channelling is a requisite, otherwise you will end up dying since you can't rely on cover or positioning as much as a ranged weapon user can. Removing this would make melee nearly useless in high level content outside of EB and hysteria, although even EB benefits from lifestrike greatly.

Imagine wasting a mod slot for life strike. Jeez.

[Gurpgork]

23 hours ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

If you want to survive high level melee without cheesing it with maiming strike builds lifestrike and therefore channelling is a requisite, otherwise you will end up dying since you can't rely on cover or positioning as much as a ranged weapon user can. Removing this would make melee nearly useless in high level content outside of EB and hysteria, although even EB benefits from lifestrike greatly.

Three years ago, I probably would have agreed with you on this. But today, there are so many ways, new and old, to be functionally immortal in this game. Rhino and Oberon are ten times the tanks they used to be, Umbral mods and Adaptation exist now, Nidus is a thing, and healing Arcanes are more abundant and easier to get than they've ever been. Not to mention that the old invisibility juggernauts are just as good as they've always been. There's even the new Diakyu mod that gives Nikanas lifesteal. 

Life Strike is indisputably effective, but it's definitely not mandatory anymore. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Gurpgork

[Urlan]

53 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Three years ago, I probably would have agreed with you on this. But today, there are so many ways, new and old, to be functionally immortal in this game. Rhino and Oberon are ten times the tanks they used to be, Umbral mods and Adaptation exist now, Nidus is a thing, and healing Arcanes are more abundant and easier to get than they've ever been. Not to mention that the old invisibility juggernauts are just as good as they've always been. There's even the new Diakyu mod that gives Nikanas lifesteal. 

Life Strike is indisputably effective, but it's definitely not mandatory anymore. 

Oberon is not anywhere near immortal, even with Phoenix Renewal. Iron Renewal helps, but his low base armor and requirement for high power to get the most out of his abilities can make it restrictive for some folk to have durability mods in the first place. I would absolutely agree, that both Rhino and Oberon are in better places personally, having had small boosts to their stats or abilities, but enemies also got boosts at those same times. Arcanes have existed since before Nidus existed, but I would agree that Eidolons are a far better way to get them that the more exclusive and puzzle oriented Trials. Life strike is equivalent to Adaptation in that it is a conditional mod, but yeah, you can make without it if you have some other manner of reliable life restore - like say a quick twitchy finger ready to use Magus Elevate or Repair geared Tenno for example - healing abilities like Oberon; or Vazarin focus.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Three years ago, I probably would have agreed with you on this. But today, there are so many ways, new and old, to be functionally immortal in this game. Rhino and Oberon are ten times the tanks they used to be, Umbral mods and Adaptation exist now, Nidus is a thing, and healing Arcanes are more abundant and easier to get than they've ever been. Not to mention that the old invisibility juggernauts are just as good as they've always been. There's even the new Diakyu mod that gives Nikanas lifesteal. 

Life Strike is indisputably effective, but it's definitely not mandatory anymore. 

Nidus is certainly nigh unkillable in you play him right but rhino and oberon can struggle to keep up with burst damage, though you are right they are both way better than they used to be, especially rhino who struggled to keep up after they removed his invincibility(a change I was worried about at the time but ended up really liking). That said damage mitigation mods only go so far and in the long run you need to have that consistent heal, which is simply easiest to obtain in melee from lifestrike. The arcanes however are pretty damn good at making up for this, but grace for example is a tough one to obtain for the average player without a good group of friends or decent PUG. 

I agree there are decent alternatives, but for me, in melee I feel like nothing has yet to replace lifestrike, that is of course unless we are stuck with toggle channel forever, in which case it's a giant pain in my behind to use