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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

 

1:  Both melee and gunplay were more fun when I had a CHOICE between which I used at the time
- I agree and will add the objectively better choice to let you make choice's giving control to the player and not taking it away

Its not a issue of fun, the issue is DE being dummies by removing true melee/making melee is objectively worse to give gunplay a quick attack+

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

2: Weaboos whining about "MUH DEBIL TRIVVER"; (do clearifie yourself cause this is nonsens) despite the fact the removal of segregated weapon slots did the exact opposite of adding "flow" to either ranged or close combat.
- segregated weapon slots is needed for the base gameplay, we need our primary, secondary and tertiary weapon, further segregated into families of weapon, assault rifles, shotguns, bows.... 
adding ease os switching between the primary secondary and tertiary weapon slot would add "flow" due to your ability to equip yourself to deal with different situations and the ease to change to that equipment to deal with that situation
adding the complexity of TTK (Time To Kill) must not be shorter then the time it takes to change weapon for that situation, the quick attack being an "instant" switch is improvement to that

DT has nothing to do with DE butchering weapon swap/removing equip melee keybind and just making gun to melee/melee to gun 2000% holster speed (its not even truly instant/DE actually removing the different state, but just applying the speed you would get at full holster speed+toxic chroma setup)

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

3: Remove weapon swap speed mods. Just make weapon holster speed inherently fast, ALLOWING US TO ACTUALLY RETAIN OUR PERSONAL CHOICE IN HOW WE PLAY;
- I agree, right now as the game is constructed with its "fast pace and quick combat" focus there is a limited reason to have a long weapon swap time, if WF was more focused on stealth and tactical choices that extends further then "to gas or not to gas, that is the question" then the "slow" weapon swap time, but in its current hord shooter, gun down them by the billions. then yes. faster swap speed would be jolly molly good. DE pay attention to your current genre you are in

Holster speed should remain, its just that base holster speeds of all swaps should have been cut to 1/3rd instead of gun/gun remaining the same while giving gun/melee a 2k modifier. As you noted QA was there for gun people and if you were playing melee its only badly designed encounters and situations that required specific tools (be it true tools like the pox, a syndicate proc or once upon a time the sonicor or the wish to go sniper for a few shot on open world maps) that asked you to swap.

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

4: A: Then add a better ability to dodge things whether in melee or ranged combat.

Yup, dodge roll should take priority over all other inputs, melee combos should have a dodge offset AND IMO doing a attack during roll should do a stinger/gap closer with damage

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

4: B: And unlike how you shoved in your asinine autoblock, make these changes something the player has to activate of their own choice.

Just giving people a toggle for if they want it or not should be fine as you note, tho IMO block as a whole can be removed for RMB being the charge attack that you can hold infinitely (and works as blockglide while in air) to then release a high modifier attack MGRR jetstream sam style/that should be charge attacks as a whole. Meanwhile the block values can be cut in half and just made generic total 360 DR while on the melee weapon.

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

5: There is literally no one alive that wants a self-playing game.
- I am alive! and I do want a self playing game, in fact I have several games that does that. It is all boiling down to preferers, genre and situation. tho what I think you are trying to say is "do not streamline this to the point I don't feel like I have any skills any more and do not streamline it to the point that I am no longer in control of my character" in that we are in agreement of. 
(and before you ask, some story based games, Tower defences that is inherently self playing, factorion! the quite essential self playing game, it is the bloody point of it! dwarf fortress! and yes, it is by the end of the game when the structure you have created is self sufficient that does not require your constant input, the hallmark of games you can set up structures. see factorion for further references of self playing)

hell yeah we are getting somewhere! onwards to the rest of the points!

This is completely unrelevant to melee... Unless you mean autoblock again as in point 4 in which case its not even the game playing itself, its the game interrupting to steal control from you, something far worse of a sin.

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

13:Who thought it was a good idea to change channeling from an intuitive, easy left-click?

It never was intuitive (if anything its one of the worst sins of the default keybind scheme) and the game even told you to change melee keybinds (and that quick vs true melee attack keybinds dont interfere with eachother) if you want to play melee. And its weaksauce usage by most people (as in most peoples builds cant use it for a equalization in rampup time for melee combo counter due to energy cost/not wanting to spam pizzas for nothing) is exactly why DT is a idea.

 

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Now that i'm more into this update i can say that the ability to "not stay" in melee and the auto-block need to be out of the final update. Serious.

First, about the auto-block: it prevents you to use your weapon when you need it most (gunblades for sure are more affected, but all melee now suffer some level of hiccups during the fights); second when you are jumping, you are forced to "glide-block" if you don't switch out of melee (and this actually make you fly away from the spot you was supposed to land). Seems so little, but actually is one annoyance that repeat so often (both examples, depending on your playstyle and mission) that can make someone mad in very little time. And as a final note, now you cannot block and glide (to actually block damage), and that's... why? [we have keyboards, we can bind keys - now if it is a problem for controllers, change them, not both]

Now the big one. Since you cannot proper "switch" to melee you are forced into the perspective of the gun you are using (scopes and other changes in perspective, with the exception of -50% zoom on rivens that deny completely the "zoom" in non scoped weapons), making the camera behavior stupidly crazy depending on your frame setup. For example, i cannot use anymore my old Saryn setup (heavy blade with 1.65 speed + berserk + arcane strike and twin gremlins/rubico) because the changes happen so fast that actually make me feel a bit nauseated. Big problem is the stance only "works" with the "block" (aim) combo, and "failing" in make it continuous (like when you move your camera to check up new enemies and any other action that remove you from pressing E) make the zoom kick for a sec (and during the glide and any other moment). Sometimes it happen so fast (zoom in and out) and so often (sometimes really fast) that can be hard to focus.

 

On 2019-04-18 at 7:45 PM, Ninubi said:

(...) one for your abilities and one for channeling. (...)

Channeling is not supposed to be gone by the end of the whole melee update? More like "replaced" by the heavy attacks? Or they dropped the feature?

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 the new switch mechanic brought more negatives than positives:

autoblock ruins momentum while in the air (sometimes i don't want to block)

autoblock depletes all my energy while channeling 

autoblock made blocking specific mods obsolete (e.g guardian derision)

the new hold fire combo(instead of hold block) is very disorienting between zooming in and out...also it cancels channeling which makes it very clunky to use when i want to 

 

suggestion: bring back manual block by tapping the fire button, and let the switch weapons mechanic by simply tapping the same button twice...

also any words about bringing back quick melee? it's kind of impossible to bring it back without completely removing this new mechanic, so i would also suggest to consider a complete overhaul of all stances and combos...

i hope you notice this, thank you.

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Wrote this down somewhere else but I think it'd be more relevant here

Idea:

1 click on the RMB = melee block / aim glide
 double click on the RMB = swap to aiming down sights

Win-win for melee block / gliding and auto ADS lovers imo

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Posted (edited)

I think the majority of this update was fantastic - there are only two things I don't like: stance momentum and air blocking.

Air Blocking

One part I dislike is the fact that we're forced to aim glide if our melee weapon is out and we're in the air when taking fire. The reason is that it restricts the ability for players to move through the air at normal speed, which is what some players want - some don't want to have to ground slam to get down quickly.

I've got two ideas for how to solve this. I prefer the first one myself.

Suggestion One: Seperate keybind for Melee Aim Gliding

Simply put, allow us to hold down the Spacebar (by default) to aim glide with melee. When we tap it, we double jump, and when we hold it, we aim glide.

Suggestion Two: New keybind for blocking

Give us the option to toggle off automatic blocking and let us choose a new keybind for it. For example, blocking could go on the middle mouse button as I, for one, don't use channelling so don't really make use of mouse 3 when using melee. Or, for people who use the standard 'e' to attack, the left mouse button could become blocking, allowing people to attack with 'e', block with mouse 1, and switch to their gun by aiming.

Stance Momentum

A lot of people have mentioned this in relation to 'milling' with polearms. Personally, I hate doing that because of how boring I find mashing the same melee button the entire time. The main reason this is being complained about is because the quite jarring stops in the middle of some 'mashing' combos is frustrating when an enemy is slowly moving towards you. For example, when 'milling' with polearms, players could run towards these enemies and quickly kill them. Now, the 'mash' combo for Shimmering Blight causes the player to stop moving completely on its third strike, which means you can't quickly run towards the enemy to hit it as soon as it gets in range.

I think that stances need to be changed such that they do not interfere with the momentum of the player.

  • Fast and Light Combos: The 'mash' combo, where it's just the same button, should allow the player to run at full speed while fighting.
  • Medium and Medium Combos: Each stance should have one, two or three combos that allow the player to walk at full speed (in any direction) with no interruptions to this, while also allowing for leaps forward such as the Decisive Judgement's 'hold E' combo. This would include these kinds of combos:
    • Multi-hit combos such as Wise Razor's Threshing Grain (pause combo)
    • Directional combos
  • Slow and Heavy Combos: Each stance should have, probably at the most, one combo that takes control of the player's momentum to perform a high damage combo in the form of a slam, or tornado, etc. I think that these combos would do well for 'sticking' to enemies. For example, Tempo Royale's blocking combo would be much more convenient when fighting a tanky enemy if it would prevent the player from soaring past it when doing the big jump at the end. This would include combos that contain:
    • Knockdown combos such as Wise Razor's Calling Thunder (blocking combo)
    • Slam attacks, again like Calling Thunder 

I know that there's quite a lot of overlap. For example, Threshing Grain will proc impact and knockdown. I think that these procs could be removed and the damage boosts increased to account for this.

Currently, most stances restrict the movement of the 'mash' combo. Also, many don't have medium combos, such as Crushing Ruin, which has all slow combos.

I think changes similar to these should be implemented to allow players to engage enemies in a versatile way regardless of the stance they are using. Each stance should allow players to perform quick attacks to clear hordes, slower attacks to hit beefier enemies in the hordes, and also allow for high damage combos when fighting very tanky enemies or when trying to CC a group with a slam.

 

TL;DR - My suggestions in a sentence

Blocking: Give us a separate keybind to manually enter aim glide in melee.

Stances: Alter existing stances to allow for better mobility in the form of running combos, walking combos and stationary combos that ignore movement inputs from the user, while allowing us to 'stick' to the target of the heavy combo (without sticking in all of the other combos).

Edited by iLightning13

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When using a redeemer gunblade that strikes on the first tap before the charged shot with high noon, getting fired at by enemies causes the auto block to constantly prevent the charged shot from triggering almost all the time if you attempt to hold melee attack.

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Obligatory 'essay incoming' warning.

 

So, I've been doing some thinking on this topic given all the feedback here. Lets see if I can adequately sum up the good and the bad of the present system based on this, and then try to suggest something to make of it. 

 

Feedback

Starting with the good.

1: Momentum issues aside (more on that later), switching immediately into stances is good. It lets you get access to your entire movepool for melee and the far more powerful stance attacks immediately. Great for those fond of stances.

2: directional ground slam enables more informed choice in combat.

3: Being able to immediately bring up guns from stance attacks opens up options for gameplay.

 

And, now the bad:

1: Those who don't like stances, the main reasoning I've seen is due to them inhibiting movement and being 'clunky'. I can see this to a good extent, especially after playing some other melee focused games recently.

2: No aimglide in melee inhibits speed even further as dashing through the air with melee is less safe now 

3: In general autoblock feels less responsive than manual block. It also activates when you don't want to, interrupting some attacks and triggering unintentional aimglide.

 

The takeaway I'm getting from this is that people like having choice in what they do in combat and going fast. So, I'm going to try and suggest a system that focuses on these systems. Adding my personal biases, I've also always found it odd that Melee doesn't provide any kind of tangible benefit to movement despite the fact that it probably relies on it more than gunplay given the requirement to gap-close that melee has.

 

 

Proposed system.

My proposed system brings back something in the same vein as quick melee - fast attacks that soley use upper body thus don't inhibit movement - and then uses the held heavy attack to access combos. Instead of the long charge up of existing charge attacks, the animations are much faster and serve similarly to the time frame of current hold combos. This can be activated at any point in an attack chain, including the opening attack, making access to combos less finnicky.

Basic attack methods.

Quick attacks are exactly that - quick, but also weak. The idea being that these serve as the 'mook lawnmower' as it were. They're somewhat nerfed from before - aka no more 0-effort whirlwind of death - but otherwise behave the same - the nerfing would likely spawn from the damage rebalances dealing with combo count and the somewhat absurd multiplier-based balancing melee works off. In order to get across the heft of certain weapon classes, some may also cause speed nerfs (or buffs). For example, quick attacking with a greatsword slows you down, but daggers or dual daggers speed you up.

Held attacks are intended for when you get across a tight group of enemies or a particularly powerful single target. By design, these deal more damage, but unlike now, all held combos slow you down fairly significantly. Instead of some throwing you a set - and significant - distance, they at most move you a small amount forwards. These are designed for higher-risk, higher-reward gameplay. This is also where combos and combo choice comes into play - you can pause after the initial heavy attack, with the same window regardless of attack speed (possible now that the window is willingly activated) to instigate a different combo chain.

Further systems

Regarding auto-switch, that remains intact, with the exception of how blocking works. Manual block returns in its original form, with the original proposed change of 100% damage reduction and directional bullet reflection - maybe at the cost of the current, reduced angle. Double-clicking block is what pulls out your gun to aim with. Just as you choose to bring out melee smoothly, you choose to put it away smoothly

However, this is not just because manual blocking feels better, but to facilitate a new mechanic I call 'intertia attacks'. Similar to the proposed gap closer, but with more control. Instead of moving you forward a set distance, this instead produces a burst of speed added to your current speed, similar to how slide works, chosen by which way you're presently facing.. An inertia attack also has a follow up which stops you in your tracks, activated with the same pause window as the heavy attack, and with significant power (high damage). This injects more speed and momentum into melee, as you can greatly speed up your movement, and as this is tied to the same key as aim glide, enables a faster transition from the air to the ground than the heavy slam, without the associated crowd control as a drawback. This could only be used once in mid-air, for reasons of balancing, but as much as desired on the ground.

 

The intent here is to create a system which caters to players who enjoy the more stylish and harder-hitting combos and players who enjoy the speed and flow, whilst also factoring into this more with a speed-boosting element, which ties the system more into the higher-paced combat flow Warframe has. Ideally, this system would enable melee to become an element of mobility again making the systems less at odds with movement right now.

 

Additionally, to compensate for reduced variation between weapon types from normalised range and combos, I suggest each weapon class be given a unique passive that encourages or supports certain playstyles. For example - Sword and Shield has a small amount of passive damage reduction, Scythes gain a damage boost for a short period of time per kill (stacking up) and Nikanas gradually gain a damage buff when not equipped (up to 300%, base), that once they get drawn they have constantly for a short time. This is to get across the defensive potency of the Sword and Shield, the grim reaper associations of scythes, and the 'patient swordsman' trope of Katana with Iaido (which Nikana's in Warframe use). Things such as that would add a great deal to the 'feel' of weapon classes, and make changing them more significant in my opinion.

 

There's also rumours of an idea to make air combat an element of melee, juggling and whatnot. Whilst not a core part of my suggestion, I feel like I should address that as this is a subject I feel could go wrong. But since this is already a wall of text and it's a bit superfluous to my main point, I'm sticking it in a spoiler tab for compression.

Spoiler

Aerial combat.

Aerial combat is something I can see working well, but not if it uses DMC-styled design. Instead, my suggestions follow on from the above.

Ground slam is moved to the held attack button, primarily to make it more controlled. Air attacks receive a unique air quick combo of 3-4 hits, with an emphasis on wider hits that draw in enemies. These reduce the effect of gravity (as opposed to the effect of aim glide which removes vertical momentum) on both the player and affected enemies. Even if killed, corpses can still be struck. After the 3-4 hits are exhausted, they cannot be repeated, unless the player lands the second hit of an aerial inertia attack (which launches enemies as well, but at a different speed to players, making it possible to land but a fairly small window). This restores both the players base combo and the inertia attack, theoretically enabling infinite air time. The follow-up to the inertia attack also has a vaccum effect, drawing new enemies into the air combo, although the range of this is relatively small and varies from class to class. Maybe a few weapon types could have additional range and air damage to encourage aerial engagements over grounded ones?

As for actually launching enemies in the first place, the command I have in mind is simply to hold block whilst using the hold attack - a 'heavy inertia attack' if you will, that draws you and enables the 'launching' required for aerial combat to be initiated. Also, as a side note, in this system, the follow-up to the inertia attack would only reduce speed, not remove it, to allow for the 'flow' of constant movement to be maintained.

 

 

So, those are my ideas. I hope they're productive!

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More than a month and still nothing changed after long-enduring this clown parade, so at this point I'm not going to go any further in elaboration than stating my boredom and hatred for 2.9.

Having no separate melee mode is not fun.

Being forced to use my weapons in conjunction in a half-cooked way that makes both harder to aim and attack with than before is not fun.

Automatic block is condescending, stupid, and constantly interrupts actions INCLUDING THE SHOT WITH HEAVY ATTACKS on gunblades; so that change can die in a hole too.

Hysteria flickers its VFX on and off with every hit, and it's done so since Buried Debts got shoved in. The easiest way to heal as Valkyr is now unusable epilepsy.

Exalted Weapons aren't fun to use when they no longer override normal weapons; the last thing I want my Valkyr to do mid-rampage as I maul things like Wolverine is to fire a normal, boring pistol.

Melee trails, weapon particles, and melee slam effects are hideously bright and over-complicated now; they legitimately looked better when they were a mostly translucent and glowed more faintly with the energy color. Any combat is now a cornea-boiling supernova.

The ability to finally have energy color customize VFX for elements isn't really an upgrade; because now nearly every element is a flickering confetti ball of slightly-altered-from-each-other particles. Fire should look like fire, not bubbles of Satan's shower soap. Electric now flickers 200 times faster than would actually look good, and is seizure-trigger incarnate.

Having a melee block and RMB combos that worked without fiddling with this moronic half-working toggle was good; and ever since we were given this in place of the old hold-and-release neither has been working correctly.

Aimable ground-slams are pointless, because now all slam attacks useless ragdoll opponents 80 feet away from you; and finishers are non-existent without stun abilities.

Did I mention that literally everything is too bright and too damned harshly glowing now? The game was already riddled with eye cancer, now I barely feel like playing at all.

Controls worked better when they were segregated. They should be separated again. Nothing about the current state of affairs is fun or satisfying to use.

But mainly, mainly, DE:

This garbage fire isn't fun, and I hate it with every fiber of my being. I hate it with every [Steel Fiber] of my Warframes. I didn't like it when it was released. I don't like it now. I won't like it in the future, DE; and I am dead certain after your period of apathetic silence, during which you've continued to patch everything but the combat you intrinsically broke and took the fun out of, that "Phases 2 and 3" are going to be further downgrades from what you already turned into dull, boring, brain-dead mashing of E and RMB.

When I haven't enjoyed a game that I had more than 2400 hours in; and I've found it boring for more than two months now, maybe you should pull your eyes out of Twitch chat and meme pages and actually read your own forums.

Why should I be hyped for any changes? The remastered Plains, creation of Korrudo, the Wolf, and even the new Prime Access are just more glitz you throw at players to try and make us distracted so we'll be quiet about your bad decisions. Rubbing polish on a car wreck doesn't change the fact the car is now a heap of junk.

I was told by a Tenno friend the following: that "unvoiced complaints are never heard"; which is funny, because Digital Extremes has made its company policy quite clear. Voiced complaints won't be heard either; and anyone who enjoyed the old and better controls (that actually worked and didn't constantly grind into each other in one sloppy mess) is going to be ignored in favor of clumsily hammering all players through a Mesa-shaped hole.

I'm sick of it. I'm sick of this head-in-the-sand attitude. I want what was actually fun to use BACK.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Gonna keep it short and simple.

I believe that both camps; players that like the old melee system and players that like the new melee system, can be happy if DE would implement a "legacy" system in which players can CHOOSE to toggle between using the old melee system and the new melee system.

 

From my personal perspective, I much rather use the old melee system as I can CHOOSE when to block, I can aim glide with my melee weapons, I can EASILY use BLOCK COMBOS, I can for the sake of style CHOOSE to be in the "ready" melee stance in which my warframe appears to be ready to draw their katana without having to use quick melee attack. Please DE, please don't remove player choice, please don't remove the players ability to "puppeteer" their warframe in the manner in which they see fit. 

I will say one thing good that came from melee 2.9 is the aim-able ground slam. That was a good call.

P.S

The other idea is to speed up the animation between equipping/unequipping melee weapons with the old melee system, which would allow you, DE, to achieve your goal of "flowing combat" while keeping the original (and in my humble opinion - superior) melee system.

Edited by GenAce2010
clarification
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Really appreciate all the hard work that was put into this, especially with the new VFX and the "weighted" feel of a lot of combos.

But as a melee main I feel like this was a step backwards. I'm sure it's great fun for some people though.

But an option to switch back to the 2.0 system would be extremely welcomed by myself, and apparently others as well.

 

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While the new melee had a rocky start, there were a lot quick fixes to certain things.

1. Exodia Contignation and Epidemic, were hardly usable right after the update, but now, whth the new system, they fit smoother into the gameplay than ever before. Especially Exodia Epidemic became increadible in combination with the aimed Groundslam.

2. Vaykor Sydon had a problem with it's ability, but binding the Blind actication to channeling made it more comfortable to use than ever before. While i alwas loved the concept of the weapon it is only now, that I'm actually using it on a regular basis.

 

What I'd like to see are some minor tweaks. The autoblocking seems a little bit off in certain cases, as a few people mentioned, when it comes to charge attacks, most notably with gunblades and glaives.

 

I really hope DE keeps their course and isn't dishearted by the negative feedback. I'd like to make clear, that most points of negativ feedback are based on people not thinking the new system through. For example,

- A lot of people are complaining that the quickattacks seemeingly gone. People liked how they were less movement impairing than stances.

What people don't realise it that they can unequip stances to get quickattacks back. Sure, they loose a few Mod-points, but this is actually quite fitting, since an actual martial art is a lot more effective than simply bashing something without proper training.

I don't know if this was intentional by DE or not, but it certainly fits really well in the big picture.

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Can I just get the old melee system back? Ever since this rework came out, I've just lost all motivation in playing the game because it pretty much nerfed my main build which I spent most of the game using (Volt with my tried and true baby the Lesion). Going around at mach speed slicing through waves of grineer in seconds was a blast, but now, because you automatically equip your melee weapon and switch to the stanced version, every time I try to attack i'm stopped in my tracks because of the limitations that stances bring. This update felt less like way to bring a balance between melee and gunplay and more like a push for melee mains to use their firearms more.

The new amiable ground slam was cool; I liked that. but literally, nothing else about this change felt worth it to me.

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
8
9 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

- A lot of people are complaining that the quickattacks seemeingly gone. People liked how they were less movement impairing than stances.

What people don't realise it that they can unequip stances to get quickattacks back. Sure, they loose a few Mod-points, but this is actually quite fitting, since an actual martial art is a lot more effective than simply bashing something without proper training.

I don't know if this was intentional by DE or not, but it certainly fits really well in the big picture.

I have tried going stanceless; have you? On the weapons I've tried, removing the stance does not bring back quick/continuous strikes, but instead changes into a completely different barebones stance that still stops you in your tracks at the end of the combo.

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On 2019-04-24 at 7:50 AM, gabuchan said:

Wrote this down somewhere else but I think it'd be more relevant here

Idea:

1 click on the RMB = melee block / aim glide
 double click on the RMB = swap to aiming down sights

Win-win for melee block / gliding and auto ADS lovers imo

you stole that from me

 

 

skoom

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Posted (edited)

You know what? I frickin' love the new melee.

My only complaint was the lack of blocking, since I used it heavily to vary up combat before when the system was much more, spin-ny. But the auto block functions reasonably well and the aimed slam attack- well that's worth any other shortcomings that may follow and I'm already unhealthily addicted to it.

I would like to see one change in the coming phases though. With the new system, weapon switching is not quite as important, and in fact is a little cumbersome between primary and secondary guns. The combos, while weightier and more impressive to look at, become repetitive when you get the same 1, 2, 3 - 1, 2, 3 over and over. Yeah you can mix gunplay, but still... I was hoping to see heavy and light attacks added, and not just the 'hold and release' type, but another input entirely that gives more damaging attacks with less defense, to use like finishers on still-standing enemies. Or maybe a Soul Calibur -esque horizontal and vertical system, but a Warframe - unique variation with regular attacks on one button while the other melee button hurls you toward an enemy similarly to the ground slam.

My proposal for this 'Heavy Melee' attack button would be to replace the current 'switch weapon' key, so that (on Xbox) regular melee is on B and functions exactly as it does now, while heavy melee is on Y and delivers finishers (with a chance for the enemy to block, causing you to be stunned) at a normal press while a long press launches you in the direction of your crosshair like a groundslam, but horizontal so the enemy is flung into the air.

As for switching weapons, this would simply be done by HOLDING X, while you can still reload by tapping it. This arrangement should solve the current issues with weapon switching, while also further improving combat. Y could function as alt-fire when in gun mode, or used to bash someone with your gun to leave them stunned.

I could take it one step further and say to return the ability to block by simply making walk/run an analog function controlled by stick angle and mapping crouch to the former sprint toggle and block to the former crouch, but that would interfere with muscle memory quite a bit more and kinda screws PC players. Still, maybe worth a look?

 

Edited by (XB1)Kavriel
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10 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

you stole that from me

 

 

skoom

Ah my bad I didn't know. I am skoom 😓

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On 2019-04-24 at 8:50 AM, gabuchan said:

Wrote this down somewhere else but I think it'd be more relevant here

Idea:

1 click on the RMB = melee block / aim glide
 double click on the RMB = swap to aiming down sights

Win-win for melee block / gliding and auto ADS lovers imo

Probably the one best Idea I've seen on this subject.

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On ‎24‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 12:25 PM, iLightning13 said:

'milling'

Post is a reasonable opinion other than the above obvious bias/slant. So what powers, weapon firing, melee using does not qualify as "milling" in a game like WF? There are hundreds of enemies to kill in most missions, sometimes hundreds upon hundreds and thousands, so in the most fundamental respect, there is going to be lots of "milling" in a horde shooter type game, especially for those specializing in melee.

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3 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Post is a reasonable opinion other than the above obvious bias/slant. So what powers, weapon firing, melee using does not qualify as "milling" in a game like WF? There are hundreds of enemies to kill in most missions, sometimes hundreds upon hundreds and thousands, so in the most fundamental respect, there is going to be lots of "milling" in a horde shooter type game, especially for those specializing in melee.

I think you missed large sections of my post if you think I'm against the idea of 'milling' with melee.

Milling, in my post, refers to using quick attacks with polearms. I used this as an example as the loss of it is the most easy-to-explain example of the issues with the current stances.

If you paid attention to the rest of my post, I explain what issue is caused by removing the milling quick-attacks from polearms:

On 2019-04-24 at 5:25 PM, iLightning13 said:

The main reason this is being complained about is because the quite jarring stops in the middle of some 'mashing' combos is frustrating when an enemy is slowly moving towards you.

 I explain that I personally don't like doing it, but it's an understandable and effective tactic. I even agree with the fact that the removal of these 'milling' combos mess with the flow of the game:

On 2019-04-24 at 5:25 PM, iLightning13 said:

For example, when 'milling' with polearms, players could run towards these enemies and quickly kill them. Now, the 'mash' combo for Shimmering Blight causes the player to stop moving completely on its third strike, which means you can't quickly run towards the enemy to hit it as soon as it gets in range.

I also suggest how this tactic can be re-implemented while keeping weapon-switching by standardising stances to have distinct combo types:

On 2019-04-24 at 5:25 PM, iLightning13 said:

I think that stances need to be changed such that they do not interfere with the momentum of the player.

  • Fast and Light Combos: The 'mash' combo, where it's just the same button, should allow the player to run at full speed while fighting.

So I'm not sure where my bias is, considering I say that I personally don't find a certain playstyle fun or engaging, but in spite of that acknowledge that it's a valid and popular tactic and still explain how it can be re-implemented for those who prefer that style of play.

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On 2019-04-23 at 10:50 PM, Kwikwilyaqa said:

Channeling is not supposed to be gone by the end of the whole melee update? More like "replaced" by the heavy attacks? Or they dropped the feature?

so... gone… right...

the "heavy attack" is just the "charged attack" that is already in the game, from what i managed to understand from DE and melee 3.0 charged attack and your combo counter where "originally" supposed to replace the "charged attack" (press and hold your quick melee button) and consume your combo multiplier counter to att that to you damage to your "heavy attack" 

(damage * combo multiplier = heavy attack damage)

and the combo counter were not supposed to effect you regular attacks any more, compensated with all melee weapons getting "adjusted" to support the new system.

this is back to when melee 3.0 was presented and got slammed for it changed to much from what is and is not, and had to many questions from the community that DE flat out could not answer att all... suggesting a half-baked idea…
or if i may be malicious.. DE officiating facts and information so the can throw there hands up and say "that is not what we sad" in order to dodge as much criticism that they can and unavoidable will get. people are scared from change, just see the responses they got and how many of them was centred around "bleed" [maiming strike] and all associated with that.

or the reaction people had that [reach] and [primed reach] when they sad it would be changed from 60/165% to a fixed metre a +1.5metre to attack range... and how all was center around [maiming strike]+[primed reach]+any long ranged weapon... a very obviously broken combination that stare as an eye sore, a viciously infested wound to anything and anyone that even suggest "balance"... I am quite amused that [maiming strike] has not been removed for the same reason why they executed [ember] now a hollow husk of what she used to be, all in the name of balance.

I don't blame DE for there lack of interest in keeping there plans open to all to see for multiple reasons. heck "Bosmier"s reaction to [oberon] rework stands as a good example why keeping everything in the dark in order to keep the "peace" in the community. cause who the heck want a few hundreds of people screaming at you and how much you done #*!%ed up.

 

channeling has not received... well anything... sins around 2015... the system... just like the clan wars

oBuCUND.pngremember this? has also been forgotten sins what? 2014?

 

eventually it to will come to the shopping block, cause why let it take up disc space when no one can use it, enjoy it, play it

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Posted (edited)

After I was once again killed, "thanks" to the autoblock, I decided to write here again. I've realized that you dont care about melee, but give at least some hint of what you plan to fix it somehow. 

A few more such "improvements" and Warframe can be released in the version for Adroid. If this is your goal then you perfect deal! 

But maybe in the PC version it’s worth keeping the normal control. You know we have enough buttons on the keyboard.

 

Thanks for ignoring, DE!

Edited by Snoit
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(I see that this forum lacs effective tools for long spanning discussions, sins I can not quote myself that you already quoted, such as I will copy past what you are replying to and then quote you for a full conversation, hopefully it remain easy to follow and refresh yourself... and me a few days later when I don't remember exactly what I wrote back then...)

ME: 1:  Both melee and gunplay were more fun when I had a CHOICE between which I used at the time
- I agree and will add the objectively better choice to let you make choice's giving control to the player and not taking it away

On 2019-04-23 at 10:43 PM, Andele3025 said:

Its not a issue of fun, the issue is DE being dummies by removing true melee/making melee is objectively worse to give gunplay a quick attack+

well... it is an issue of fun, you prove yourself immediately there after by "being dummies by removing true melee" suggesting that you enjoyed the old system that allowed you to switch to only melee.

as for the objectively worse part. it depends, if DE wanted to move the melee from an action to a re-action, something you only use when you are pushed in a tight spot.
and sins I don't have access to the DATA, and thus can not check if the majority of people only uses the quick melee. If that is the case then it is the Objectively right thing to do.

tho the only reason I can see for why keeping the ability to permanently switch to melee is to accommodate the lack of controls of a controller.. worsen further by the addition of the switch... in order to keep "the product" the same for each console... something that is known in the game industry that console owners forcing game developers to not make the PC version better then the console version. and I have no problem seeing DE signing one or more contracts that agrees to keep the game as same as possible... this will be very obvious if further console-ifications of the game but I digress

however if the DATA suggest a rough even split or leaning to melee being used more as the primary weapon and not a tertiary weapon that it is by fact. then the choice of making the melee combat system based around quick melee attacks rather silly and directly against how people play the game. making it the Objectively worse thing to do

---------------------------

ME Paraphrasing mr Maxim_M_Payne2: Weaboos whining about "MUH DEBIL TRIVVER"; (do clearifie yourself cause this is nonsens) despite the fact the removal of segregated weapon slots did the exact opposite of adding "flow" to either ranged or close combat.
ME: - segregated weapon slots is needed for the base gameplay, we need our primary, secondary and tertiary weapon, further segregated into families of weapon, assault rifles, shotguns, bows.... 
adding ease off (fixed my miss-spelling) switching between the primary secondary and tertiary weapon slot would add "flow" due to your ability to equip yourself to deal with different situations and the ease to change to that equipment to deal with that situation
adding the complexity of TTK (Time To Kill) must not be shorter then the time it takes to change weapon for that situation, the quick attack being an "instant" switch is improvement to that

On 2019-04-23 at 10:43 PM, Andele3025 said:

DT has nothing to do with DE butchering weapon swap/removing equip melee keybind and just making gun to melee/melee to gun 2000% holster speed (its not even truly instant/DE actually removing the different state, but just applying the speed you would get at full holster speed+toxic chroma setup)

DT?=Damage Threshold? Damage Take?

My point was and still is, why switch weapon when the time it takes to switch weapon takes longer then just keep attacking.
and from what DE does it comes across as the primary goal of the quick melee is to "adding ease off switching between the primary secondary and tertiary weapon slot would add "flow" " to the combat system
"
its not even truly instant/DE actually removing the different state, but just applying the speed you would get at full holster speed+toxic chroma setup"
yes I agree I missed used the word Instant I should probably have sad "takes 1 frame to swap..." but what is it you are trying to say?

yes DE should implement this swap speed to all weapons sins we do not have any gun in the game that can justified the swap speed there is no BFG "insta kill what ever is in the room and the next one

even the arch-guns does not offer the damage output to justified the seconds you are forced to stand still. they are "balanced" in line with the rest of the arsenal.

the [ogris] our rocket launcher. the thing in every other game is a "free kill and a serious threat to any and all vehicles" is a joke gun, [angstrum] + variations, [penta] + variations, [zarr]. so we don't need a 1 second swap speed to "compensate for the power"

-----------------------------------------------------

ME Paraphrasing mr Maxim_M_Payne3: Remove weapon swap speed mods. Just make weapon holster speed inherently fast, ALLOWING US TO ACTUALLY RETAIN OUR PERSONAL CHOICE IN HOW WE PLAY;
ME: - I agree, right now as the game is constructed with its "fast pace and quick combat" focus there is a limited reason to have a long weapon swap time, if WF was more focused on stealth and tactical choices that extends further then "to gas or not to gas, that is the question" then the "slow" weapon swap time, but in its current hord shooter, gun down them by the billions. then yes. faster swap speed would be jolly molly good. DE pay attention to your current genre you are in

On 2019-04-23 at 10:43 PM, Andele3025 said:

Holster speed should remain, its just that base holster speeds of all swaps should have been cut to 1/3rd instead of gun/gun remaining the same while giving gun/melee a 2k modifier. As you noted QA was there for gun people and if you were playing melee its only badly designed encounters and situations that required specific tools (be it true tools like the pox, a syndicate proc or once upon a time the sonicor or the wish to go sniper for a few shot on open world maps) that asked you to swap.

Lets save some time and I just quote myself in the previous point.
"yes DE should implement this swap speed to all weapons sins we do not have any gun in the game that can justified the swap speed there is no BFG "insta kill what ever is in the room and the next one" "

on another note QA stands for Questions and Answers, I don't know if it is fitting to call my comment a QA, perhaps I should have stated it clearer that I used Maxim_M_Payne's comment as a spring board, a jump of point for structuring my mind and form a coherent objective respons to Melee 3.0 that avoids as much as possible "my feelings" 
thought that was made clear with:
P.S.
I am not attacking you! you just setup questions that answers are feedback DE needs
D.S

guess i was mistaken.

keep reading for some further more... clarifications

-----------------------------------------------

ME:4: A: Then add a better ability to dodge things whether in melee or ranged combat.

On 2019-04-23 at 10:43 PM, Andele3025 said:

Yup, dodge roll should take priority over all other inputs, melee combos should have a dodge offset AND IMO doing a attack during roll should do a stinger/gap closer with damage

I use the structure of (- ) to represent my comment, and the (number: ) to represent the point I am making a comment to

and I would think it to be obvious that the 4: A: to show I split up a comment into a 2 parter, especially when it is immediately followed by 4: B: 

guess I was mistaken.

 

so in this your reply is aimed towards mr Maxim_M_Payne and not me, granted I used re-writing to demonstrate how I understood what was written by mr Maxim_M_Payne

this may or may not be an accurate, and Maxim_M_Payne has the opportunity to say "no I sad this" and clarify.

I do this to avoid the "ofc what knight would not have some chrome on there armor"
a comment that was placed on a video on historically accurate knights in armor, witch garnered him the respons "chrome was not isolated and named for about 200 - 1000 years after "knights in armor" was used as soldiers, making it impossible for a knight to chrome there armor
and the person made the argument I was stupid for not understand "street slang" that chrome ment shiny... 

it is important that people make an attempt att accurately pressenting in a well order structure, and use prim and proper languish and not write as we talk with our friends, that kind of languish is littered with internal references that will make no sens outside that group, this is why if someone starts talking "gangsta" to me I simply ask them to speak proper, and if they refuse I mock them. just as I do with kids and there blasted acronyms to no #*!%ing end render most they type into a bloody cipher that needs to be decrypted, and for some reson some "academics" price this as "efficient use of languish" 

and it is important that we read the comment in its fullest and pay attention... yes that is a jab att you

ME: 4: B: And unlike how you shoved in your asinine autoblock, make these changes something the player has to activate of their own choice.

On 2019-04-23 at 10:43 PM, Andele3025 said:

Just giving people a toggle for if they want it or not should be fine as you note, tho IMO block as a whole can be removed for RMB being the charge attack that you can hold infinitely (and works as blockglide while in air) to then release a high modifier attack MGRR jetstream sam style/that should be charge attacks as a whole. Meanwhile the block values can be cut in half and just made generic total 360 DR while on the melee weapon.

ME REPLYING TO POINT 4: B: B - yeah no problem there, that auto block is frustrating and enoying and I love to toggle it off.

You have proven now that you did not read my comment. thanks...

moving along

------------------------------

Hey look! you kept the point I was replying to so people can easy follow! thank you! 😄

ME Paraphrasing mr Maxim_M_Payne 5: There is literally no one alive that wants a self-playing game.
ME: - I am alive! and I do want a self playing game, in fact I have several games that does that. It is all boiling down to preferers, genre and situation. tho what I think you are trying to say is "do not streamline this to the point I don't feel like I have any skills any more and do not streamline it to the point that I am no longer in control of my character" in that we are in agreement of. 
(and before you ask, some story based games, Tower defences that is inherently self playing, factorion! the quite essential self playing game, it is the bloody point of it! dwarf fortress! and yes, it is by the end of the game when the structure you have created is self sufficient that does not require your constant input, the hallmark of games you can set up structures. see factorion for further references of self playing)

hell yeah we are getting somewhere! onwards to the rest of the points!

On 2019-04-23 at 10:43 PM, Andele3025 said:

This is completely unrelevant to melee... Unless you mean autoblock again as in point 4 in which case its not even the game playing itself, its the game interrupting to steal control from you, something far worse of a sin.

you are correct! this is completely irrelevant to melee 3.0 and vaguely relevant to Warframe in general

it is however a direct reply to the statement "no one alive wants a self-playing game"

remember blade storm from [ash]? remember world on fire from [ember]?

remember how you just pressed 4, remember the backlash DE got for changing those 2 abilities

now it is relevant to Warframe. Shall we make it relevant to melee?
how Warframe could steal a few pages from the spectacle fighter genre say, god of war, and implement a flashy QTE Finisher that kills a enemy in a over the top and nonsensical way that look amazing

but again! you did not read my comment did you? let me probe it

ME: tho what I think you are trying to say is "do not streamline this to the point I don't feel like I have any skills any more and do not streamline it to the point that I am no longer in control of my character" in that we are in agreement of. 

consider this a gentle man slap in the face
moving along

 

ME Paraphrasing mr Maxim_M_Payne 13:Who thought it was a good idea to change channeling from an intuitive, easy left-click?

On 2019-04-23 at 10:43 PM, Andele3025 said:

It never was intuitive (if anything its one of the worst sins of the default keybind scheme) and the game even told you to change melee keybinds (and that quick vs true melee attack keybinds dont interfere with eachother) if you want to play melee. And its weaksauce usage by most people (as in most peoples builds cant use it for a equalization in rampup time for melee combo counter due to energy cost/not wanting to spam pizzas for nothing) is exactly why DT is a idea.

AND THIS IS WHAT I SAD IN RESPONS TO POINT 13:
- custum keybindings, I use "G" and I used to use left click to block.
as for channeling, I am confused and amused it has not been removed years ago, or to the very least changed
in its present iteration it is unusable with one solid exception, life strike,
but I have not seen nor heard of a soul that build there weapons for channeling, and not a lack of trying from my department, fraggor prime is the best choice due to it having the highest base damage increase when channeling.
and it all is due to one thing, channeling consume the same energy that your abilities use, and they are almost always more useful or powerful then a singel attack from your melee while channeling. quick dirty easy fix, do the same with as has already been done with amps and void dash, two separate energy pools. one for your abilities and one for channeling. game changer and DE please considering doing this, perhaps adding more particle effects to cosmetic items, altering present channeling effect on your character, making it more clear and more obvious and easy to see, and let it become a "power mode" for taking down that really heavy guy or altering the gameplay, there is a few mods already, like the one that increases the movement speed after a channel kill

 

thanks bud...
this is a slap in the face from you.
how cruel I would be if I twisted what you sad in order to spin a narrative to suits my will... this is why I quote you, and my original comment.

it is malicious, unethical

please take your time to read and write your reply.
I honestly want to get a reply to my statement, this is why I make this kinds of comment, and structure them for ease of replying.

 

hope the last part did not come across as to angry

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Posted (edited)

A new thing I noticed today.

For some reason, some weapons can block hooks, and some can't.  Whenever I use my Dual Keres and have an Ancient or Scorpion fire a hook at me, I'll block it the same as I'll block any incoming fire, but today I decided to power up a Mios and that seems completely incapable of blocking hooks.  Every time one was fired at me, no matter if I was already auto-blocking incoming fire or just not pressing any keys at all, and facing towards the enemy every time one was fired, I'd always end up falling on my ass and being dragged to whoever fired the hook.

If we had manual blocking, this wouldn't be an issue, because I'd always be holding block, but since I can't control my block, and auto-block is so utterly janky and unreliable, I now can't use the benefits of melee while I'm using melee.

The more I experiment with this new melee system, the worse and worse it gets.  I wouldn't go so far as to call this 'Melee 2.9', it's more like 'Melee 0.5'.  It's a beta, untested, has no polish and doesn't function correctly at all compared to 'Melee 2.0'. 

Edited by Konachibi
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I much preferred the old less dumbed down version.

 

New graphics effects add nothing but make it harder to see.

 

Block is OP, and easy mode.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jhaerik said:

I much preferred the old less dumbed down version.

 

New graphics effects add nothing but make it harder to see.

 

Block is OP, and easy mode.

Some like the new way, some don't. Why can't we have both?

 

Right now, every time I aim, glide, melee-strike anything; I have to press the relevant keybind to get back into gun mode, mining / fishing / hunt mode then curse and swear at my kavat.

New melee sure improves the 'flow' when fighting. The auto-block means some players will be blocking some fires... but every thing else gets janked.

I'll even nitpick a bit and whine about not being able to see what primary / secondary my frame or others are using because its holding this giant anime sword [looking at you, Zenistar/Dominion].

It's not just the specific changes for quick melee / holstering either. Previously, you can go into mining mode, deploy archwing and continue. Now every mode change requires you to reengage mining / hunt mode. I'm probably hitting an extra keybind a few times every minute during gameplay. It's like having to readjust your contact lenses every time you blink. Also new bugs like not being able to use melee-strike to dismount a vehicle because the melee-strike keybind is hosed. Again. Or always... always dropping data masses because you don't equip a secondary. If we ever get a sortie that's Primary / Melee only... Please don't do that. By the way... anyone else got killed thanks to auto-block? Yeah...

Have pity on my kavat. I should only be swearing at her when she blocks my view when I'm drilling ores.

Seriously, don't take inspiration from Boeing. Really. The rest of the game / changes are just great. Except for this tiny, super-annoying thing.

PS If I get the choice to choose between old and new. I'll pour kubrow "essence" on the new and bath it in plasma fire.

Edited by Asphe

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Posted (edited)

I support this one-button switch to melee mode and the removal of quick melee. I think that now we have a fluent way to explore the diversity of weapons through their combos. Quick melee was making all weapons basically feel the same and quick spinning polearms were dominating the scene and stealing the fun. However:

-  the primary combo (the first in the list, the classic quick melee tap without pauses or holds or etc) in some stances is throwing the player in jumps and dashes that are not so easy to control (examples: Null Warning in Final Harbinger, Inferno in Brutal Tide). In the perspective of more control given to the player, i think that such features should be relegated to more complex combo buttons combinations (a dash should be executed with melee + directional arrow or jump), while the easy quick tap x3 or x4 should always provide in-place attacks. I cannot count the times i fell out of the map because of Null Warning slightly missing an enemy hitbox.

- stances should be polarity independent (no mod capacity penalty), to allow for more building elasticity and let their diversity be easily exploited.

- melee blocking should be manual, like before. The issues with channeling energy drain, mods like guardian derision, aim gliding, valkyr going out of invulnerability were already reported many times in this thread.

- finishers are a problem: they can lock you in unskippable long animations in the middle of a fight, and that may mean death in high level content, especially because so many times they are triggered without the player intention (i'm looking at you, kuva syphon). I know that binding finishers to a new button may be problematic with all the things that we already need, maybe add the possibility to cancel the finisher animation with some quick melee taps?

- the immediate transition with no holstering feels weird and unnatural to me. I personally would't mind a holstering animation coming back. Also, some people bought with platinum alternative holstering styles and seems that now they are rendered useless or less attractive (Never tried personally, just heard of).

- it's impossible (or i'm missing something obvious?) to understand at a quick glance if i'm in channeling mode or not, i have to hit someone and see if i'm spending energy. But maybe this won't be a problem with the upcoming channeling rework?

Last, a small QoL implementation request: we have a nice melee crosshair, can you add to it a little shape or color change to notify when we are at the right angle for a melee slam?

I'm curious for what's coming next!

Edited by DebrisFlow
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