Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

[DoomFruit]

15 hours ago, cyclon2 said:

im a #*!%ing ninja, if im gonna melee you, i want to pull out my goddamn sword like a ninja and start combochopping, this intergrated system of quickswapping sounds cool. but for dedicated melee users i bet its not. only for gunusers that barely focus on their melee.

Nope, it craps over gun users as well. The moment you press melee, you lose the ability to alt-fire, you lose syndicate procs charging in the background and your gun will no longer reload itself when the magazine's empty.

Being forced into stance melee is also bad for gun users, who would typically want to hit something that's gotten close and move back into a better firing position. The vast majority of stances either glue you to the spot or throw you around during their attacks. This is extremely bad for those who are used to having control over their character at all times - and it's worse of all here because the absolute highlight of this game (and probably the reason I still keep coming back) is the movement system. Taking that away seems utterly retarded.

It also craps over people who scan, mine and fish. Swing your sword once and that's it, gear item gone away, now you have to go and manually put it back.

[Ofeban]

18 hours ago, cyclon2 said:

i just turned off my primary and secondary completely, bound channeling melee to MB1, and it was heaven. 

im scared for the next update which might make this solution thats working for me not work anymore.

ow and i can swap to ranged by pulling out my archgun.

Yep the game is still playable without primary/secondary equipped. Sucks to miss out on the flow farm tho, and I liked using my guns when convenient.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

5 minutes ago, Ofeban said:

Yep the game is still playable without primary/secondary equipped. Sucks to miss out on the flow farm tho, and I liked using my guns when convenient.

What about channelling though, I'm a lifestrike addict and toggle is a nightmare for channelling 

[vaarnaaarne]

4 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Nope, it craps over gun users as well. The moment you press melee, you lose the ability to alt-fire, you lose syndicate procs charging in the background and your gun will no longer reload itself when the magazine's empty.

Being forced into stance melee is also bad for gun users, who would typically want to hit something that's gotten close and move back into a better firing position. The vast majority of stances either glue you to the spot or throw you around during their attacks. This is extremely bad for those who are used to having control over their character at all times - and it's worse of all here because the absolute highlight of this game (and probably the reason I still keep coming back) is the movement system. Taking that away seems utterly retarded.

It also craps over people who scan, mine and fish. Swing your sword once and that's it, gear item gone away, now you have to go and manually put it back.

The issue with movement locks  to almost all combos also needs to stressed and repeated. DE introduced this nerf without a word a good while ago now, before Phase 1, and it's still an utterly baffling move that's a completely unwarranted nerf to melee.

I mean, why is melee *less* mobile than firearms? It makes no sense, considering how melee absolutely needs to be faster than firearms because melee has to cover all the ground between each enemy even in a relatively tight spread, while guns only need to worry about damage fall-off. Melee *needs* to be faster. I strongly urge DE to consider if people would be that happy if almost all guns did the same and froze you in place when you fired them.

A related problem is basically how melee even before could rarely make real use of jumping (unless you just wanted to knockdown slam) because of how clunky and useless air melee was but now it's even worse because autoblock can make you into a sitting duck against your will while in the air or mess up your platforming (heck, it's really a problem for melee whenever you leave the ground unwillingly even if you were just comboing). Wall latch melee is its entire own number, considering how utterly useless it is while taking practically forever to get out of.

[cyclon21]

i feel like this whole thing is a result from having to cater to the consoles. and i understand these automatic functions must feel awesome if you have a controller and only so many keys to use. but i assume pc users just want maximum control like myself, and if thats the case DE might want to be more flexible with pc and give us the options to opt out of automated mechanics.

this was just a first step, and it could be that when the whole overhaul is done, its more awesome than ever, but as its looking now im doubtfull.

[(PSN)azul86sapphire]

On 2019-07-15 at 8:23 PM, cyclon2 said:

im predicting now, that any melee dedicated players are gonna turn off most of the new options and prefer the old system,

Well I imagine there are some, like myself, who have just stopped playing Warframe altogether for months now, only checking this thread or the Dev Workshop forum for Melee updates.  I feel like if enough people did this, the Devs might notice... but I don't encourage people to abandon the game if they still enjoy playing it.

 

1 hour ago, cyclon2 said:

i feel like this whole thing is a result from having to cater to the consoles. and i understand these automatic functions must feel awesome if you have a controller and only so many keys to use.

As a console player, I feel like this melee change was a considerable slap to the face.  If it was meant to cater to consoles, I don't see how we benefit at all.  My personal playstyle was obliterated.  The old controls felt far more natural, and I never felt overwhelmed by control options. 

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

8 hours ago, cyclon2 said:

i feel like this whole thing is a result from having to cater to the consoles. and i understand these automatic functions must feel awesome if you have a controller and only so many keys to use. but i assume pc users just want maximum control like myself, and if thats the case DE might want to be more flexible with pc and give us the options to opt out of automated mechanics.

this was just a first step, and it could be that when the whole overhaul is done, its more awesome than ever, but as its looking now im doubtfull.

I briefly tried out console when they allowed us to transfer our accounts and I can see how the automatic functions are meant to help with a quick swap system, but as far as controls the old system was fine on console, since it needed one button to switch modes and then all the firearm buttons were free to be used for melee mode. I kinda feel like if they just sped up the switch to full melee mode instead of this half melee mode that would have been better.

[Alvengerz]

I like the previous melee system better. There will be an option to enable the old one, right? :(

I feel the current melee system is uncomfortable to use. Also having to aim in order to launch exodia contagion's projectile is annoying to me.

[SilviaS12]

On 2019-07-15 at 8:23 PM, cyclon2 said:

since the new melee changes have started, i dont like playing melee anymore. its ridiculous. such a small change ruined it for me completely, which makes me scared of any future changes.

if anything, if you must force this upon us, please have options in the system that can turn off this autoswapping, autoblocking and what else there is to come thats gonna prevent us from executing our current playstyle. i prefer to choose if i want MB1 to force me to shoot my primary or have it bound to another function when in melee. i also prefer to manual block over some silly no hands playstyle called for blocking, and i even used the autoblock mods in my setup allot of the time. and where is my melee glide?  all these features felt awesome, just to be replaced by some nonsence i dont care for in the slightest. 

im predicting now, that any melee dedicated players are gonna turn off most of the new options and prefer the old system,

im a #*!%ing ninja, if im gonna melee you, i want to pull out my goddamn sword like a ninja and start combochopping, this intergrated system of quickswapping sounds cool. but for dedicated melee users i bet its not. only for gunusers that barely focus on their melee.

Thank you kind sir.

[SilviaS12]

On 2019-07-15 at 1:54 AM, Maka.Bones said:

Well sucks for you, but DE had to prepare for tennocon... which many people actually did enjoy (so I wouldn't call any of this rubbish). And now they're getting back on track with things, so you're still gonna have to wait a while. 🙂

It would be really beneficial for all of us to be patient, if we really want the devs to do a good job on melee. So please if you want melee to improve, be nice and be patient.

Tell that to everyone who has been here since the time stamps of page 1 to 10. No one here is bashing Tennocon so not sure how that and the current melee being rubbish even related. The point is most people don't like the autoblock or not having a locked melee mode separate from a ranged mode. As @Ofeban said:

 

On 2019-07-15 at 4:21 AM, Ofeban said:

All DE had to do was add a Blockglide toggle, or hotfix the parkour issue that people are having. It's been many months already, they've/we've already been patient. I agree that toxicity is bad, name-calling devalues a debate, but understand that DE have been negligent on this matter.

So kindly whilst we continue to be patient, please no name calling thank you.

[cyclon21]

im not saying these changes made melee completely unplayable, but it feels way more limited, and im not saying it is, just what it feels like.

my biggest worry is that when more changes come, i keep this restricted feeling when playing, which is bad. what im hoping for is that we get a broad selection of options we can adjust in order to propperly customize our personal preferences. for example button toggle for channeling, or button held. dont force me into something i dont like. also autoswapping or not, and if i dont autoswap, id like keys to be able to have mutiple binds, melee might have different functions for the same keys as apposed to using my primary, 

the only real problem that needs to be fixed completely is this ridiculous autoblock. it completely #*!%s up the flow of the combat. the way it interupts certain actions is plain stupid. id prefer the old way block worked, just because not many used it it feels like blockusers got punished for by removing manual block completely. but maybe there is a good reason why they changed it, i can only speculate and dont know what changes DE is working on, but it beter fixes these block issues im experiencing.

 

[(XBOX)X F14KAP X]

Still an issue. I've been gone for some time and see they have still not fixed Melee yet? I dont know what it will take as they would have more to gain to add a fix for this issue. So much potential seems held back. 

[Gene_Freak]

They didn't make any progress towards fixing the problems at first because they'd just released the changes, then it was because Tennocon was coming up, and currently it's because they're still recovering from Tennocon. Soon they'll be neglecting melee because they're working hard to get a new expansion out, then because they just released a new expansion and need to support it, and eventually because they're on holiday break. 

Looking forward to seeing "Melee 2.9.9" on next year's whiteboard 

[xdeathhungerx]

Still not using primary and secondary weapons, switched aim to where block was to get my manual block back. Arbitration is double tough melee only. Still refuse to press 5 because there is no melee option there. I am here to play Warframes not weak meleeless 5 button. Give me melee 1.0 on 5 button because it makes sense there, melee 2.0 is an upgrade to melee 2.9999.

 

[DrakeWurrum]

So while I'm loving the auto-block mechanic (because, frankly, I would always forget to bother blocking before the change), the fact that right-clicking automatically switches me to the gun is a bit problematic. I can no longer manually glide with my melee weapon out - instead this automatically happens if I happen to auto-parry while mid-jump. It also means that ANY melee combo using the block button (right-click for us PC users) becomes a bit frustrating and... clunky? Definitely not smooth.

I propose a change: allow us to still block with right-click, but make it a sort of "full block" - while blocking with right-click, we negate ALL damage from gunfire. The auto-block can be based on the weapon stats still, like it currently is.

Then change it so, while the melee weapon is out, the F button does NOT switch us between primary/secondary guns, but just takes us back to our currently-equipped gun. (of course left-click will still do this, but snipers need to scope)

This way we get the best of both worlds. We get the fluidity of the melee 2.9 mechanics AND we get to manually block.

Edited July 18, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[(PSN)RyanTheBigBean]

With most combos needing you to block it should be a option to make aim weapon block if you have a melee out and not do that annoying auto block glide you are in mid air with your melee out. I just dislike how when i do a combo and stop attacking becouse i used my aim weapon button to use the combo it pulls my gun out and messes with my rythem i guess you would call it

[SilviaS12]

9 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

So while I'm loving the auto-block mechanic (because, frankly, I would always forget to bother blocking before the change), the fact that right-clicking automatically switches me to the gun is a bit problematic. I can no longer manually glide with my melee weapon out - instead this automatically happens if I happen to auto-parry while mid-jump. It also means that ANY melee combo using the block button (right-click for us PC users) becomes a bit frustrating and... clunky? Definitely not smooth.

I propose a change: allow us to still block with right-click, but make it a sort of "full block" - while blocking with right-click, we negate ALL damage from gunfire. The auto-block can be based on the weapon stats still, like it currently is.

Then change it so, while the melee weapon is out, the F button does NOT switch us between primary/secondary guns, but just takes us back to our currently-equipped gun. (of course left-click will still do this, but snipers need to scope)

This way we get the best of both worlds. We get the fluidity of the melee 2.9 mechanics AND we get to manually block.

I think you are trying to make a good solution I want to agree with however I am having a hard time understanding the F button part taking us back to our currently-equipped gun, and left click will take out the gun also? then how do we get back to melee? I do prefer to use the primary "attack" mouse button for attacking whether melee or ranged, so it seems other players who play like this is left out of the equation. Also this sounds like the cheap cheesy low quality weapons teleporting from holsters and magically appearing in hands is still going to stay... bleh it just seems like this whole update wasn't thought through at all.

[DrakeWurrum]

30 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

I think you are trying to make a good solution I want to agree with however I am having a hard time understanding the F button part taking us back to our currently-equipped gun, and left click will take out the gun also? then how do we get back to melee? I do prefer to use the primary "attack" mouse button for attacking whether melee or ranged, so it seems other players who play like this is left out of the equation. Also this sounds like the cheap cheesy low quality weapons teleporting from holsters and magically appearing in hands is still going to stay... bleh it just seems like this whole update wasn't thought through at all.

The point of letting F take us back to the gun without switching is for if we want to scope first, since right-click would thus be block. Otherwise left-click just starts shooting, which doesn't really work for snipers (or if you're using a build that includes a mod like Argon Scope).

E is what takes us to melee, like always.

Edited July 19, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Genitive]

Are we going to get a dev workshop on anything related to melee? You told us during the last melee update that you didn't want to go silent on it again, and yet here we are knowing little to nothing but "we're working on it". This is the quote by @[DE]Rebecca from Phase 1 thread:

We don't want to repeat 2018's Melee discussion where we show, go dark, and the year passes. We'll live through this evolution in phases together and adjust the sails along the way. We are confident the change is needed, and we've started charting the course.

Not even players' concerns about removal of block have been commented on.

I have a list of things I think many players would want to know:
1. Is auto block going to stay, or are you going to bring manual blocking back somehow?
2. Are you going to change how the combo counter works?
3. Is charge attacks preswing going to be removed?
4. What are the channeling changes?
5. In general, what is your plan after a couple of months of feedback from the players?

I don't think reworking Wukong with the new melee is enough of a preview. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really like being kept in the dark.

I also realize that Tennocon took a lot of your time, but still.

[Ofeban]

This is the reality of what happens to video games when the ultimate decision-making goes to corporate suits who:

A) Don't play the game.

B) See the company as a profit-making entity rather than an artistic body.

C) Make decisions based on marketing(AKA Crook Book) that directly, negatively impact the integrity of the game, so that short-term profits can be earned.

Imagine if the actual developers and artists who build this game weren't inundated with demands to create new content and flashy-pinaschy BS to attract new players/keep fickle old players. Imagine if they could take their time with something like Melee 2.9999, ship it better in the first place, *and* respond to constructive criticism.

[SilviaS12]

On 2019-07-18 at 9:39 PM, DrakeWurrum said:

The point of letting F take us back to the gun without switching is for if we want to scope first, since right-click would thus be block. Otherwise left-click just starts shooting, which doesn't really work for snipers (or if you're using a build that includes a mod like Argon Scope).

E is what takes us to melee, like always.

ah I see sounds good, so we can stay in either melee mode or ranged whichever we need to use at the given time. Melee blocking and block glide would be there and no pesky sniper scope super zoom when trying to glide whilst on melee. would be a plus if they got rid of the teleporting weapons animations and let the tenno grab the weapons him/herself again. wishful thinking.....

[SilviaS12]

5 hours ago, Ofeban said:

This is the reality of what happens to video games when the ultimate decision-making goes to corporate suits who:

A) Don't play the game.

B) See the company as a profit-making entity rather than an artistic body.

C) Make decisions based on marketing(AKA Crook Book) that directly, negatively impact the integrity of the game, so that short-term profits can be earned.

Imagine if the actual developers and artists who build this game weren't inundated with demands to create new content and flashy-pinaschy BS to attract new players/keep fickle old players. Imagine if they could take their time with something like Melee 2.9999, ship it better in the first place, *and* respond to constructive criticism.

the saddest truth and biggest tragedy.........

[SilviaS12]

11 hours ago, Genitive said:

Are we going to get a dev workshop on anything related to melee? You told us during the last melee update that you didn't want to go silent on it again, and yet here we are knowing little to nothing but "we're working on it". This is the quote by @[DE]Rebecca from Phase 1 thread:

We don't want to repeat 2018's Melee discussion where we show, go dark, and the year passes. We'll live through this evolution in phases together and adjust the sails along the way. We are confident the change is needed, and we've started charting the course.

Not even players' concerns about removal of block have been commented on.

I have a list of things I think many players would want to know:
1. Is auto block going to stay, or are you going to bring manual blocking back somehow?
2. Are you going to change how the combo counter works?
3. Is charge attacks preswing going to be removed?
4. What are the channeling changes?
5. In general, what is your plan after a couple of months of feedback from the players?

I don't think reworking Wukong with the new melee is enough of a preview. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really like being kept in the dark.

I also realize that Tennocon took a lot of your time, but still.

fellow mortal Tenno, the gods of DE hear nothing. 

another question I would like to add is why were the animations for the Tenno grabbing arsenal from holsters removed? This teleporting thing seems unfinished and unpolished. Would much prefer having them grab the arsenal.

[DrakeWurrum]

7 hours ago, Ofeban said:

This is the reality of what happens to video games when the ultimate decision-making goes to corporate suits who:

A) Don't play the game.

B) See the company as a profit-making entity rather than an artistic body.

C) Make decisions based on marketing(AKA Crook Book) that directly, negatively impact the integrity of the game, so that short-term profits can be earned.

Imagine if the actual developers and artists who build this game weren't inundated with demands to create new content and flashy-pinaschy BS to attract new players/keep fickle old players. Imagine if they could take their time with something like Melee 2.9999, ship it better in the first place, *and* respond to constructive criticism.

This is absolutely the stupidest thing I've read.

You realize you're talking about DE, not EA, right? You're talking about Steve and his crew. The devs are the ones making the decisions.

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

This is absolutely the stupidest thing I've read.

You realize you're talking about DE, not EA, right? You're talking about Steve and his crew. The devs are the ones making the decisions.

They don't play the game, though. There are so many cases in this game of either bugs (one example: sanctuary onslaught not completable when solo unless using a fully minmaxed saryn) or just bad design (waving the damn fish around EVERY SINGLE TIME, despite knowing full well how many fish you'll need to get) which would have been found immediately upon the first playtest and then stamped on hard.