Rivens and the cause of inflation

[Hypernaut1]

Stop being envious of others Rivens. Get over it. No, there won't be locked stats. No, DE won't make every riven awesome or let you choose your weapon. 

Play with what you get or pay someone for it. Stop this fake " concern" for the economy

[taiiat]

 

28 minutes ago, Blatantfool said:

 However the way Rivens exist right now HAVE shown they have this potential to be very unhealthy for the world of trading. There are so many different reasons for it and all of them are basically correct. That said, it's still pretty garbage. You see the values at hundreds of dollars worth of Plat and you know that it's silly. Regardless of the fact that hardly anyone throwing that plat around actually spent for it.

 Mechanically, Rivens fall for a pitfall that has existed in numerous other games. They're just too inconsistent. This can be reigned in.

unless it basically removes rarity, it won't change much. unless someone can get their own perfect 'god' Riven in one day, they're gonna still buy/sell Rivens at an increasing trend over time.
that's the Consumerism trap people walk in circles in, both in games and reality.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

And then they won't sell as well until they inevitably lower their price.

that's not how Rivens. works. it costs literally nothing to have a Riven. you just wait for someone to buy it.
eventually, someone will. sure, chances are someone asking for 20,000 for not actually a god Riven (so 99% of 'god' Rivens), and not a popular Weapon.
but in most cases, someone will buy it. it doesn't matter if you gotta wait a few weeks or maybe a couple months. it costs you nothing to have it anyways.

[Brosef42]

I don't understand your people's problem. It kinda of just seems like you people are jealous and upset that you don't get that awesome riven mod with the awesome stats on your favorite weapon. Rivers aren't necessary. Most Youtubers will give builds without rivens that can be used into endgame. If you want a really good riven. Farm for one. It took me weeks of farming till I got a decent one. It's a reward not a right. 

[AzureTerra]

Important things seem to be selling for reasonable price (ie everything thats not a Riven) While i haven't looked at the market as a whole the small glimpses ive seen while looking for specific things seems ok, ive gotten the prime parts ive been after for what i think has been reasonable after a bit of waiting.

Then you look at rivens and its a mess yes but that's the rub as most of what is a "crazy" price is not needed to do anything ~ the mod type is totally optional. If people choose to buy at those prices people are of course going to sell at those prices but you can with a lil bit of patience get very good rivens for a fraction of the cost or get unrolled and try your own luck.

Edited March 28, 2019 by AzureTerra

[Knight_Ex]

People realize you DON'T need rivens right? you don't need to buy them from other people. so everything your feeling is self inflicted injury and remind me of someone who was trying to talk me down from selling an opticor riven witth CC and CD with negative zoom from 2.5k plat,, which I thought was more than fair, people will complain about things they can't afford, its the golden rule, but no way is this messing up the ecomony since people are BUYING the overpriced rivens.

[(PSN)randy_lahey__--]

6 hours ago, Blatantfool said:

 As solutions go this one is over the top enough to seem sarcastic. Unsure if that was the intent.

 The solution isn't the create more rivens that are more powerful. The solution is to create more rivens that are within a similar ballpark. To increase the health of the system by both raising the floor and lowering the ceiling at the same time.

 Make stats on rivens more accurate. Not all at once of course. You do this gradually until it starts to feel right. If the stats that have the highest changes of coming out of a riven for a weapon type are stats that are more likely to cooperate with the weapon type you'll simultaneously see higher quality combinations of positive benefits and more meaningful negative ones. This accomplishes making future rivens more consistent and doesn't require thermonuking the existing ones. You simply set up a system that says that if you roll a riven in from the original stats system into one that participates in the new one, the game will reset the roll count as if the riven was brand new. Handling older rivens this way means that player have incentive to process the old rivens into the new stats logic but also have the option of keeping the old.

  As Rivens all start to orbit a certain power level the market will be forced to rethink values. The old logic of 'Better than average is massive payoff' doesn't work as well when your roll is a lot more plausible to come by than it once was.

couldn't agree more. I think thats what the devs are at least trying to do 

[(PSN)randy_lahey__--]

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Stop being envious of others Rivens. Get over it. No, there won't be locked stats. No, DE won't make every riven awesome or let you choose your weapon. 

Play with what you get or pay someone for it. Stop this fake " concern" for the economy

"yes officer this man right here, He's the one running the riven mafia"

[aswitz87]

Well if more people do nightwave and get the 20k kuva drops, rivens will start to become more saturated, specially if DE keep the drops in each upcoming nightwave.

That one drop is more kuva than I would have if you added my previous amounts together.

Not like it will change the prices overnight, but it may have an effect.

Right now though I’m enjoying the higher prices on locked rivens.  Saves me the effort of unlocking them.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, (PS4)randy_lahey__-- said:

"yes officer this man right here, He's the one running the riven mafia"

I wish. My personal experience is that I can't seem to sell anything over 200p. I sold a vectis riven for 600p once when Rivens when they were first introduced. 

I personally think anything willing to play thousands of plat for a riven deserves to have the market of Uber awesome Rivens exclusive to them. It's really Overkill anyway. Unless you're a hardcore efficiency farmer, weapon power hardly matters after a certain point. 

 

[le_souriceau]

As (not riven) trader with some experience I must say problems runs little deeper.

First. How riven obession works? I personaly blame to large extent so called "content-creators", hunting for clicks, they produce constant stream of same cheap videos like "OMG THIS WEAPON IS OP", "GOD-TIER RIVEN YOU MUST TRY", "NEW RIVEN FOR [weapon name] IS JUST INSANE", many time its even not the case (its just decent riven and weapon combo, but nothing more), but people constantly eating this. And wanting best rivens possible.

Generaly speaking all this riven thing holds players little bit like psyhological hostages. You like weapon? Heheh. Then you not getting 100% without RIVEN! Pay or be loser.

And it works.

Next. As I hate about rivens most, they not just produce all this hysteria in vacuum. No. The DRAIN plat from "real goods" market, like baro inventory, mods or prime parts. So while riven market swims in inflation, other parts of market choked with heavy deflation. Critical mass of players so taxed by need of collecting plat for desired rivens, that they constantly deflate other prices, trying to sell items as cheap and as fast as possible. And they hesitate to spend anything more then minimum to have more plat for rivens. Its very easy to track, that almost all "commodities" in WF beside Rivens constantly (at pretty fast rate) loosing value. People become some kind of "riven junkies".

So, generaly, profitability of any trade besides rivens (and may be rare vaulted parts) is pretty low now. To the point I amost quit large-scale trading (trying to clear stock now), just sell some occasional drop.

Edited March 29, 2019 by le_souriceau

[000l000]

Il y a 10 heures, Blatantfool a dit :

I'd like to see more sources on Rivens. If players have more avenues to farm rivens that'll fill the market a little more without doing it unnaturally. It'll help drive the wild prices down.

It doesn't work that way cause some rivens are literally monopolized by a few hoarders, this is why prices wouldn't go down since they fix it themselves. Lots of people don't understand we aren't talking about real economy here, this thing wouldn't even be tolerated in real life economy. Just check popular rivens, a few guys are selling the vast majority of them, not common players. There are a lot of rivens to be sold and the most expensive ones are all but the rarest, if you inject more rivens they'll just do the same thing they're doing currently, buy them all to sell them at an higher price.

We aren't talking about economy here, think about it as a mafia, ruled by some greedy selfish opportunists who are just exploiting a system where no regulation has ever been implemented. One can definitely blame DE on this one though, they're just sitting there watching honest players being hostages of a few ones.

Edited March 29, 2019 by 000l000

[000l000]

il y a une heure, le_souriceau a dit :

As (not riven) trader with some experience I must say problems runs little deeper.

First. How riven obession works? I personaly blame to large extent so called "content-creators", hunting for clicks, they produce constant stream of same cheap videos like "OMG THIS WEAPON IS OP", "GOD-TIER RIVEN YOU MUST TRY", "NEW RIVEN FOR [weapon name] IS JUST INSANE", many time its even not the case (its just decent riven and weapon combo, but nothing more), but people constantly eating this. And wanting best rivens possible.

Generaly speaking all this riven thing holds players little bit like psyhological hostages. You like weapon? Heheh. Then you not getting 100% without RIVEN! Pay or be loser.

And it works.

Next. As I hate about rivens most, they not just produce all this hysteria in vacuum. No. The DRAIN plat from "real goods" market, like baro inventory, mods or prime parts. So while riven market swims in inflation, other parts of market choked with heavy deflation. Critical mass of players so taxed by need of collecting plat for desired rivens, that they constantly deflate other prices, trying to sell items as cheap and as fast as possible. And they hesitate to spend anything more then minimum to have more plat for rivens. Its very easy to track, that almost all "commodities" in WF beside Rivens constantly (at pretty fast rate) loosing value. People become some kind of "riven junkies".

So, generaly, profitability of any trade besides rivens (and may be rare vaulted parts) is pretty low now. To the point I amost quit large-scale trading (trying to clear stock now), just sell some occasional drop.

Hysteria is part of many gamers mind now, new players era always brings new things to deal with. Obession with hype is definitely a thing when we're talking about rivens being popular or not, no one needs brand new meta/prime or whatever rivens, people just lack of knowledge, they're just following the flock when you can get a absurdly powerful Synapse riven for a dozen plat and get one of the strongest weapon around in a sec.

We're living in a world of consumerism and consumers have never been that dumb. Boycotting popular stuff is the best way to deal with hoarders since they couldn't rely upon players predictability to make some capital gains on specific items. For my part i always try to buy the rivens for the weapon i have the most fun with, especially old weapons. It's quite effective and they're all effective at some point anyway, plus once it gets a prime version you just saved a lot of plat. 😄

I bought a Stradavar and a Tonbo rivens a month ago cause they definitely were on my "next prime list", especially the stradavar since only a few primary Tenno weapons remain, it's the last assault rifle. I liked this weapons a lot and did quite well. I could be rich with such strategies but ripping off other players isn't part of the fun i want to have in a game. But if one is taking the hype train before it can hit any station, hoarders aren't much of an issue then - They're more greedy than really smart.

Most rivens i have (and i have 90 now, perhaps 70-75 i really use from time to time) have been found, unveiled by my wife or myself, tested and used. It's the cheapest way to deal with rivens ever. I never found a Tiberon though, but why would i care if i already have some nice rolled Braton, Tenora, Karak etc. I only have to wait a few months and prices will go down after the next hype meta - I'm no frustrated 12 years old child, and people shouldn't behave that way, that's the worst way to deal with greedy traders.

This game needs two things, smarter consumers players, and DE getting rid of hoarders. One or both, but tbh good luck with the first one. 😅

Edited March 29, 2019 by 000l000

[zoffmode]

I feel like the solution to price inflation is way simpler than all of you guys are suggesting. Simply do ingame auction house or just postings of items on sale. Right now people who actually don't intend to rip people off just don't trade their rivens cause it's too much work. Hell, if you compare riven selling sites, it's already BY FAR more acceptable prices... yet less than 1% of playerbase will actually sell on there.

You really don't have to change the system. Just make trading them less cancerous. Prices then will gradually drop in a healthy manner.

[000l000]

il y a 11 minutes, zoffmode a dit :

I feel like the solution to price inflation is way simpler than all of you guys are suggesting. Simply do ingame auction house or just postings of items on sale. Right now people who actually don't intend to rip people off just don't trade their rivens cause it's too much work. Hell, if you compare riven selling sites, it's already BY FAR more acceptable prices... yet less than 1% of playerbase will actually sell on there.

You really don't have to change the system. Just make trading them less cancerous. Prices then will gradually drop in a healthy manner.

It doesn't work either. Do you really think people aren't trying to sell their Rubico rivens cause this too much work ? At this price, everyone would try to sell it, no matters what. They're definitely selling their rivens, that's part of the issue since other players are buying a lot of them, selling them at higher prices a minute later. Many players aren't aware of prices though, that's something an implemented auction house could solve since everyone would know prices better - It'd help with people who try to rip off other players but it wouldn't solve the whole hoarder issues.

Lots of games have auction houses and inflation is crazy, it never worked in any game. Economy is always flawed by "expert sellers" who are literally spending their whole life trying to get virtually rich. To each their own.

Auction house does not regulate anything, it just makes trading easier, and tbh market sites are already doing this job quite well. It never solved anything yet either. Plus this so-called experts will rule the AH even more cause auctions need time, way more than standard market. Only they will snipe stuff and tbh lots of bots are doing this job now, when i started playing Warcraft 20 something years ago only humans were trading, now it's just a "cheaters" fest, Auction House is the worst idea one can have to solve any issues atm. 😅

Edited March 29, 2019 by 000l000

[Brorelia]

In truth most rivens are not really needed and the game would not be all that different if they were gone tomorrow.

Rubico prime being used by Chroma can one or two shot basically anything you would run into before 2+ hours in a mission.

The only times when I would hate them disappearing is things like my Venka Riven which allowed for me to get a really good hybrid build with viral damage (it has a .50 disposition which is as low as you can go so hardly a mega powerhouse of a riven but it allowed for something I would have not been able to do otherwise) and kohm no longer being so easily to get to 100% status chance.

As such having a rubico riven is a nice power boost but it is really only a bundle of stats that more often than not adds nothing strategic to a weapon. It is not like covert lethality which can turn a Sheev into the most powerful weapon in the game if you know how to use it.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Brorelia

[0_The_F00l]

An anonymous auction house would help. 

[Brorelia]

10 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

An anonymous auction house would help. 

Have it actually be bidding and both parties will get what they deserve.

[zoffmode]

37 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

It doesn't work either. Do you really think people aren't trying to sell their Rubico rivens cause this too much work ? At this price, everyone would try to sell it, no matters what. They're definitely selling their rivens, that's part of the issue since other players are buying a lot of them, selling them at higher prices a minute later. Many players aren't aware of prices though, that's something an implemented auction house could solve since everyone would know prices better - It'd help with people who try to rip off other players but it wouldn't solve the whole hoarder issues.

Lots of games have auction houses and inflation is crazy, it never worked in any game. Economy is always flawed by "expert sellers" who are literally spending their whole life trying to get virtually rich. To each their own.

Auction house does not regulate anything, it just makes trading easier, and tbh market sites are already doing this job quite well. It never solved anything yet either. Plus this so-called experts will rule the AH even more cause auctions need time, way more than standard market. Only they will snipe stuff and tbh lots of bots are doing this job now, when i started playing Warcraft 20 something years ago only humans were trading, now it's just a "cheaters" fest, Auction House is the worst idea one can have to solve any issues atm. 😅

Ingame auction house generally trends prices down in anything simply because selling stuff becomes too easy and everyone starts doing it. That's why for example I don't mind not having auction house for prime parts. It's nice to still be able to make something from opening relics. And inflation in games generally happens naturally because currency is farmable not because of auction houses. Plat isn't farmable though. Warframe inflation is because of influx of playerbase's cash and ingame plat sinks being too weak. Now, do we want more plat sinks? Depends, but generally some inflation is fine. It just has to be stable.

As for Rubico rivens, yes absolutely. I have a bunch of good rivens I don't intend to use for example. I'm not trying to sell them though cause figuring out reasonable price is too much hassle. I'll just get spammed by all the losers trying to make profit off my riven by reselling it. That or I'll keep trying to sell it for weeks and that's just not fun. And no, riven sites aren't that much better either.

Edited March 29, 2019 by zoffmode

[Birkenhoff]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Gabbynaru:

Rivens are terrible. Rivens are broken. Rivens should be fixed. DE will never do that because people still spend ridiculous amounts of money on them.

Rivens were broken if the only way to get a good one would be to buy it for 25.000 plat and they were an essencial part of a game. You don't need that godly Lanka riven to oneshot an Eidolon limb. Rivens simply aren't broken. It's nice to have a "godly" riven but it's not a must have. It's a trophy. You can easily get an (unnecessary) advantage by simply rolling them.

It's not up to the rivens if people are willing to pay that pricees for a trophy with insanely good stats.

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, Brorelia said:

Have it actually be bidding and both parties will get what they deserve.

Pretty much,

but having a % cut going to the house and limiting all purchases to plat only.

No loss to DE,

both parties get what they need, 

Trade chat doesn't need to be changed,

And a steady means of getting plat back so people actually purchase Plat to keep the economy going instead of hoarding everything. 

[BDMblue]

Why do we need to fix the prices??

Can you not just farm your own things? 

I do not understand the problem of being able to sell the things I get in game for piles of plat? What’s the problem?

 

this whole riven price thing is only a problem if your some one who has to have top of the line meta gear and is sad because it cost too much.

Well sorry son you got to pay more then the next guy if you want that god riven you have to have.

[(XBOX)Dic3man]

I second auctionhouses, on console its to much hassle to type (if not using a keyb which most people dont).
Put up a riven for a price (sure there are websites but thats a minority) and let it sit for a week instead of spamming tradechat (its tough to keep up with all the crap people are spamming it with).

This would reduce prices substantially imo.

Edited March 29, 2019 by (XB1)Dic3man

[-AiLuoLi-]

TLDR ; riven was mistake.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

16 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Your argument is hinging on the price people say they are selling Rivens for is what people are actually paying for them?

I see this come up all the time and it's wrong, in my experience. People DO pay asking price, or pretty close to it, for rivens all day long. Even on console where we dont get discounts on plat purchases. (Well okay rarely. But not like getting  a 75 off coupon)

[Blatantfool]

7 hours ago, 000l000 said:

It doesn't work that way cause some rivens are literally monopolized by a few hoarders, this is why prices wouldn't go down since they fix it themselves. Lots of people don't understand we aren't talking about real economy here, this thing wouldn't even be tolerated in real life economy. Just check popular rivens, a few guys are selling the vast majority of them, not common players. There are a lot of rivens to be sold and the most expensive ones are all but the rarest, if you inject more rivens they'll just do the same thing they're doing currently, buy them all to sell them at an higher price.

We aren't talking about economy here, think about it as a mafia, ruled by some greedy selfish opportunists who are just exploiting a system where no regulation has ever been implemented. One can definitely blame DE on this one though, they're just sitting there watching honest players being hostages of a few ones.

 Originally I wasn't exactly gonna come back to the thread, cuz I spoke my piece I think, but your post snagged me again.

 I don't really have a strong opinion, nor any real knowledge, about this Riven mafia stuff I occasionally see talked about. Just want to frontload that info to you so that you know where I'm at as far as any controversy there might be.

 I think you are undervaluing the effects changes in frequency or changes in the stat pool might have. I'll try to represent my stance as clearly as I can but it's a pretty complicated thing and I'm not a huge number cruncher - so despite feeling very strongly about my view on this I think I'm not the best at making an argument worthy of it.

 First of all, even if as you say there exist some number of players who are forcing the riven prices into an inflated state, there are reasons surrounding the system that have nothing to do with it that also contribute to the problem. Or, to put it more accurately, the system has problems that make it easy to abuse. It will be a multiple step process to fix all of these issues and I myself only spoke out about a single facet of it (mostly because its the primary facet I care about). But other folks in this thread even have suggested sensible solutions. Like an anonymous auction house system.

 

 But I'll focus on what I think is closest to my wheelhouse, which is the two issues that crop up before all other issues involving rivens. First, the frequency of Rivens. Second, the distance between the floor on riven quality and the ceiling. I believe both of these issue are equal in importance to us, the player. I also believe it is super important that they are discussed as separate issues. To break it down to just the meat on the bones:

• If DE were to add even a single new source of a Riven you could do every day that would, effectively, double the total amount of Rivens that can enter the game daily. Double the rivens means rivens in general are more common. This will, inevitably, flood the market. Not all of these Rivens will be high quality, but the attainability of all rivens goes up due to the increased rate at which new rivens are generated by the community playing. Players will be able to work through the process of obtaining the rivens for weapons they have interest in more easily, meaning many people wont get pushed into needing to trade for it.
• If DE were to change the layout of the floor to ceiling ratio of Rivens (Not unlike Diablo 3's infamous item stat rework) it'd mean that Rivens will generally be more useful more often. Trash rivens involving stats with no or negligible stats for a weapon archetype would naturally be phased out - I've been using +Reload speed for Bows as an example of this (Basically any beneficial statline that would serve as a negative because it blocked a statline that actually helps). However, and also very importantly, it'll mean Rivens will lean into being a little more consistent across their spectrum. It would be quite so unlikely for you to play for your worthwhile Rivens if you know that you're at least going to get weapon stats that are serviceable to the purpose of a weapon the riven is for. This means that you're rolling mostly involve picking with detriments, if any you receive, you can best live with while also looking for the correct flavor of riven you might desire. If you know you have a reasonable shot at obtaining the riven you want you don't have to trade for it.

 Between those two points, you are essentially dealing with the part of this whole situation that is the games contribution to the problem. DE can't patch scummy trading attitudes out in a hotfix. You can, however, prevent scummy trading practices from being able to chokehold trading because the system the rivens are a part of is still kinda rough around the edges. Riven value needs to come down a bit and it needs to happen naturally, within the context of the gameplay involving them and not within the context of the trade chat.