Nightwave, I am spent

[Jinzanami]

4 hours ago, trst said:

 And afaik the Itzal comment was specifically from Scott, not the rest of the team. The argument made for it is a sound one in that it limited the viability of the other Archwings in open worlds. There is no reason to use the other Archwings there when you could just be using an Itzal for fast travel. Which was the point, it limited viable options, not that it was making players spend too little time playing. Not saying I agree with the idea of nerfing the Itzal because of this but I also understand why they would have that idea.

you believe that ? you think scott just get that idea out of his rear in the devstream without discussing it for months or maybe years with the whole team ? dont be a naive they're just testing the water here and scott is the perfect choice for that because he have history of nerfing things for stupid reasons and even that had to go trough the head master before getting accepted.

theres no reason to use other archwing because theeres no reason to use archwing in the plains in the first place, theres nothing that they provide that other frames or guns cant do better, but itzal is used majorly by the player base because it provide speedrunning with is a crucial for framing this grind fest of game bounty rng crap.

they only nerfing it to make us more miserable going trough they're shallow open worlds and the idea get spoken by scott because they just released the plains remasters and they dont like someone skipping trough it with blink, nothing more, this change only benefit them and not the players.

 

 

[IspanoLFW]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

So yeah. No one would be happy with "both" existing.

The problem with your thinking here is you're assuming both would be kept as is together. No. If you had both alerts AND Nightwave. Nightwave could not have the credit related rewards. Only the 30 Tiers. Everything under credit rewards would be on alerts.

And that's the issue many people have, and also the big flaw in many people's arguments. They argue for, or against, Nightwave based on ONE aspect. When the real issue is both being joined together at the hip.

So, Nightwave with the credit system ripped out, plus normal alerts for everything you'd normally have? 100% ok with that. But honestly, a better rework that doesn't join these two systems at the hip would be better.

And lastly, this is a big case of the original system having problems, but then "replacing" it with another system, with more problems.

Edited April 6, 2019 by IspanoLFW

[Teljaxx]

52 minutes ago, Jinzanami said:

you believe that ? you think scott just get that idea out of his rear in the devstream without discussing it for months or maybe years with the whole team ? dont be a naive they're just testing the water here and scott is the perfect choice for that because he have history of nerfing things for stupid reasons and even that had to go trough the head master before getting accepted.

theres no reason to use other archwing because theeres no reason to use archwing in the plains in the first place, theres nothing that they provide that other frames or guns cant do better, but itzal is used majorly by the player base because it provide speedrunning with is a crucial for framing this grind fest of game bounty rng crap.

they only nerfing it to make us more miserable going trough they're shallow open worlds and the idea get spoken by scott because they just released the plains remasters and they dont like someone skipping trough it with blink, nothing more, this change only benefit them and not the players.

DE is trying to exert too much control over how people play their game. One of Warframe's biggest strengths is how much control the players have over how they want to play. But, giving players too much choice is hard to balance around. So instead of encouraging that choice, they are trying to take it away, simply to make thing easier for themselves.

They have always had trouble keeping long time players entertained as long as new players. When they release new gear, veterans can build it instantly with their massive stockpile of materials, while new players have to go farming first. This is why they added things like Argon Crystals, which you cannot stockpile, and daily standing caps. It puts everyone on a much more even, and easily controlled, playing field.

Nightwave also has a time gate. You can only make a limited amount of progress every week, so no one can rush ahead of anyone else. But its also impossible to catch up if you fall too far behind. They also extended this control to the challenges and rewards. They basically assumed that every single player can do the same things, enjoys the same things, and values the rewards the same way. But with a playerbase this large, that is never going to happen.

This is why so many people are unhappy with Nightwave. A single permutation is never going to satisfy everyone. And when that thing is as central a system as Nightwave, if you don't like it, it tends to get in the way of enjoying everything else, too.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 minute ago, IspanoLFW said:

The problem with your thinking here is you're assuming both would be kept as is together. No. If you had both alerts AND Nightwave. Nightwave could not have the credit related rewards. Only the 30 Tiers. Everything under credit rewards would be on alerts.

And that's the issue many people have, and also the big flaw in many people's arguments. They argue for, or against, Nightwave based on ONE aspect. When the real issue is both being joined together at the hip.

So, Nightwave with the credit system ripped out, plus normal alerts for everything you'd normally have? 100% ok with that. But honestly, a better rework that doesn't join these two systems at the hip would be better.

And lastly, this is a big case of the original system having problems, but then "replacing" it with another system, with more problems.

Nightwave with only the Rank-up rewards is what you suggest?
Basically remove everything from it but those & relock it all behind the terrible RNG of Alerts?
AKA: Regress to the old system that people disliked due to the poor RNG (which DE will never change), return Nitain to being nigh non-existent.
Fill the Star Chart with mostly ignored content, again.

The rank up rewards alone isn't enough for Nightwave. Basically it'd be too barren of rewards.
Alerts with once again be oversaturated, and RNG would put Credits & regular resources in front of everything once again.
Aura Mods once again become nearly unobtainable for new players, Nitain becomes nigh unobtainable for a large portion of the playerbase, and we all return to depending on apps to tell when an actual good alert pops up.

And as I keep saying. DE would NOT buff the rate of the useful Alerts. As they were a good plat sink. DE has to make some profit after all.
And I know fully built items will not be rewarded via Alerts. So it'd be a step back.

Nightwave is only truly bad when the challenges ask too much of the playerbase.
At this point there is no full regression. More players like not being strangled by RNG than those who didn't mind it.
The rewarded would need to be split & in the end the Alerts would get/appear to get to short end of the stick.

I've been mentoring around 6 new players recently & they were playing before Nightwave dropped.
They enjoy Nightwave much more than Alerts due to the availability of items, mods, etc. Stuff that they use to only have access to through me basically (trading or taxi).

Both systems have issue, but odds are Nightwave Season 2 will be better balanced, probably with Credits being more available.
The current Nightwave feels stingy because Credits don't come frequently enough. That is what gives the illusion of Alerts being better.
IE: Alert is a 3-8minute mission vs days of ranking up.
(Until you remember that the Alert for that same item might take days or even weeks to even appear in the first place.)

[Enialyx]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

pseudo challenges..

 

Tenno, I have a challenge for you!

 

...JUMP 150 TIMES AND APPLY A GLYPH !

[IspanoLFW]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Nightwave with only the Rank-up rewards is what you suggest?
Basically remove everything from it but those & relock it all behind the terrible RNG of Alerts?
AKA: Regress to the old system that people disliked due to the poor RNG (which DE will never change), return Nitain to being nigh non-existent.
Fill the Star Chart with mostly ignored content, again.

The rank up rewards alone isn't enough for Nightwave. Basically it'd be too barren of rewards.
Alerts with once again be oversaturated, and RNG would put Credits & regular resources in front of everything once again.
Aura Mods once again become nearly unobtainable for new players, Nitain becomes nigh unobtainable for a large portion of the playerbase, and we all return to depending on apps to tell when an actual good alert pops up.

And as I keep saying. DE would NOT buff the rate of the useful Alerts. As they were a good plat sink. DE has to make some profit after all.
And I know fully built items will not be rewarded via Alerts. So it'd be a step back.

Nightwave is only truly bad when the challenges ask too much of the playerbase.
At this point there is no full regression. More players like not being strangled by RNG than those who didn't mind it.
The rewarded would need to be split & in the end the Alerts would get/appear to get to short end of the stick.

I've been mentoring around 6 new players recently & they were playing before Nightwave dropped.
They enjoy Nightwave much more than Alerts due to the availability of items, mods, etc. Stuff that they use to only have access to through me basically (trading or taxi).

Both systems have issue, but odds are Nightwave Season 2 will be better balanced, probably with Credits being more available.
The current Nightwave feels stingy because Credits don't come frequently enough. That is what gives the illusion of Alerts being better.
IE: Alert is a 3-8minute mission vs days of ranking up.
(Until you remember that the Alert for that same item might take days or even weeks to even appear in the first place.)

You said no one would be ok with Nightwave + Alerts. I said otherwise. OR to build a proper system where it wasn't joined at the hip, yes I said this. Nightwave was an attempt to replace alerts, but also give something to endgame veterans. That is already a problem because veterans don't need the same things newbs do.

This is why I put that last line in there. Yes both have problems. But Nightwave effectively took things we had, and locked them behind something many may not want, or cannot do. Regardless of how you feel about that, it IS a valid complaint against it.

[Graavarg]

Well, I just reached lvl 30, got the nice & beefy armor pack 👍, and at the same time opened up the reward for the next standing level (tier 31), the first "Prestige" reward.

It is.... 15 Wolf Creds.

Not even 50, like in the occasional lower levels, but 15. Of course, the "slight disappointment" is due to my expectations, all DE has said on the matter is:

"Earn up to 300 Wolf Cred by completing daily and weekly Acts, and even more with prestige once you rise past Tier 30!"

While I know there are some problematic changes for players needing specific resources fairly quickly (nitain comes to mind), I really like the Nightwave concept. Especially the mix of "harder" and softer missions (though unfortunately the harder ones now seems to have been removed due the gripe they generated). I also think some of tier rewards have been great (especially the new mods).

I don't know if the "Prestige Reward" will continue to be 15 Wolf Credits per tier (as one can only see the next tier reward in line), but if this would be the case I will not put more time into Nightwave. 15 Wolf Creds per 10000 standing just isn't "prestigious" enough for me (but that is on me, of course). It is not even the cost of an aura mod and is less than half of the cost of a helmet, and most importantly, I would have to rise another 5 standing tiers in order to get a single Catalyst. But most of all I somehow cannot buy into the concept that diligently completing an act/mission system spanning over several weeks and then going into "prestige mode" would actually decrease the reward with 70%, compared to the standard reward (15 Wolf Creds is 30% of 50 Wolf Creds).

Of course, it might be typo (maybe it should be 150 Wolf Creds, not 15), it might be that it rises logarithmically, it might be that all kinds of nice "prestige" tier rewards show up. But a "prestige" reward of 15 Wolf Creds at tier 31 is slightly ridiculous (to me, at least).

Edited April 6, 2019 by Graavarg

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, IspanoLFW said:

You said no one would be ok with Nightwave + Alerts. I said otherwise. OR to build a proper system where it wasn't joined at the hip, yes I said this. Nightwave was an attempt to replace alerts, but also give something to endgame veterans. That is already a problem because veterans don't need the same things newbs do.

This is why I put that last line in there. Yes both have problems. But Nightwave effectively took things we had, and locked them behind something many may not want, or cannot do. Regardless of how you feel about that, it IS a valid complaint against it.

What did Nightwave take away that wasn't already locked behind something?
Everything Nightwave took was locked behind RNG when it was under the Alert system & that system still forced players to do things they may not want to do.
Play a Defection mission for Nitain Extract? Everything Interception? Any Archwing Alert (for the bulk of the playerbase)?
All Nightwave did was offer a guaranteed path to obtaining these things at the player's discretion albeit with a minor time gate added to them (if you skip challenges).

Nightwave replacing Alerts was meant to help address the player complaints over the RNG aspect of Alerts, particularly the infamous 3 & 4 am Alerts for the actual good stuff, as well as the items that almost near never entered the rotation (IE: Steel Charge, Shield Disruption, Helmets for some Frames, Forma).

I wasn't trying to say your complaints aren't valid. (Sorry if I came across that way.)
I was just saying that Alerts were not the great system that the rose-tinted glasses folks are wearing around here make it seem like.
Alerts were quicker overall. (Depending on how you look at things.)
Most folks I've met in game (Newbie &  Veteran) pretty much ignored all of them, all the time.

[Toddrusel]

Nightwave is a chore, 1 that most people don't have time to fully invest in and it needs a rework.

[Jinzanami]

3 minutes ago, Toddrusel said:

Nightwave is a chore, 1 that most people don't have time to fully invest in and it needs a rework.

and they took the alert just to force us to use it, a total bs.

[Azamagon]

Nightwave is an overcomplicated "solution" to a simple problem.

The problem was that the alerts were random and shortlasting, so people couldn't get them in time (like, they could appear and disappear while you were sleeping/working etc).

So... one would expect the alerts to just last longer, right? Would take little to no effort at all to do. But no, let's make Nightwave instead. Yeesh >_>

[Teljaxx]

25 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Nightwave is an overcomplicated "solution" to a simple problem.

31 minutes ago, Jinzanami said:

and they took the alert just to force us to use it, a total bs.

Unfortunately, this seems to have become fairly standard practice with games like this these days. Don't bother fixing things that people complain about, just remove them instead. Even though this tends to cause more problems in the end, and upsets any players that actually enjoyed it.

Its basically like cutting off your whole leg just because you broke your toe. Sure, your toe isn't a problem anymore, but your "solution" has created an entirely new problem.

Were alerts perfect? No. Not at all. But they were also not so broken that complete removal was the only solution. And Nightwave has brought an entirely new set of problems to the game.

[Jinzanami]

7 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Unfortunately, this seems to have become fairly standard practice with games like this these days. Don't bother fixing things that people complain about, just remove them instead. Even though this tends to cause more problems in the end, and upsets any players that actually enjoyed it.

Its basically like cutting off your whole leg just because you broke your toe. Sure, your toe isn't a problem anymore, but your "solution" has created an entirely new problem.

Were alerts perfect? No. Not at all. But they were also not so broken that complete removal was the only solution. And Nightwave has brought an entirely new set of problems to the game.

they did the same with Raids, Vacuum, Rivens and Damage 3.0 Nekros desecrate lies.

they need a wake up call, they need a competition and a big content creator to expose they're crap just like Jim F Sterling did by chance.

[SastusBulbas]

Logged in last night, stayed up later than planned, didnt have much fun, was solo playing derelict with all dragon keys equiped for Nightwave.

 

Im only at lvl 16 or 17. Only interested in the armour and Umbral forma, but its like getting home to a second job and Im not leveling any frames or weapons when i have this grind.

 

Already quit WOT frontlines for that reason.

[Merrowen]

17 hours ago, SnowWarFr said:

If there's any light to this issue, DE is aware of this issue. However, I think they're focused on catering to veteran players right now, people who have the luxury of time.

I believe I'm a veteran, what with over 3200 hours played, mr26 and all the swag. You know the drill. And I have to tell you, my friend, that nightwave is certainly NOT catering to me. Why, you might ask? For the reasons OP listed.

And also one thing that never gets mentioned (am I weird because that it is the reason I kept playing warframe?): the worldbuilding. Alerts were creating impression of a live system, where established mentor personality - lotus- was informing me that my help was needed. It made me feel that there's deeper meaning to the game than simple weekly checklist provided by anonymous dev, lets call him Johny Randomo. With alerts gone, and on story front, replaced by nightwave's old fashioned loading screen (At this point I would actually pay some plat to see good old vor in a staring contest with corpus crewmen for loading screen)  with 'story' such as it is boiling to 'bad dude ran from jail', well. I'm sorry DE, it just doesn't do it for me. I did all the activities the game has to offer thousands of times before. Gotta grind them all song is nowhere near enough for me to do it again, if the game world suddenly feels deader than Gobi in a middle of dry season.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Merrowen

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

The thing I enjoy about nighteave is that I’ve been playing warframe for 5 years. Once I get the newest frame and weapons in a given update, there’s nothing left to do. Nighteave gives me an excuse to use all of the gear I’ve earned to try and complete challenges for some sweet loot. It’s like any other games battle pass, the coolest stuff is near the end, so most casual players will only get like halfway, while the hardcore grinders will get everything. Besides, nighteave is completely free as well, unlike other games battle pass. It could use some slight tweaks but is easily one of the best ways to keep me playing the game.

[aswitz87]

On the OP, the best way to deal with it IF you don’t care too much about the tier rewards, ignore Nightwave after the first credit offering.  Use that to get the nitain.  Then spend 20 minutes trading.  Fast items are unopened rivens and anasa starues.  In 20 minutes, assuming you don’t overprice things, you will have enough plat to purchase as many potatoes as you could get in a month of alerts.

Anyone buying potatoes from Nightwave is either unaware of how easy trading is or crazy.

[nerfinator6]

16 hours ago, SnowWarFr said:

I think they're focused on catering to veteran players right now, people who have the luxury of time.

Time that I do NOT have.

[(NSW)UncleSporky]

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Nightwave is an overcomplicated "solution" to a simple problem.

The problem was that the alerts were random and shortlasting, so people couldn't get them in time (like, they could appear and disappear while you were sleeping/working etc).

So... one would expect the alerts to just last longer, right? Would take little to no effort at all to do. But no, let's make Nightwave instead. Yeesh >_>

Or what about this.

No more Nightwave, go back to the old alert system.

Doing an alert, any alert, gets you 10 wolf creds or whatever you want to call it.  And there's a cred shop identical to the one Nightwave has with rewards that cycle every week.  For the really ultra special stuff like an extra weapon slot or umbra forma, it costs 200 or 250 creds and you can only buy it once.

Done!  All problems solved.  The star chart is populated with people being ushered to random nodes in groups, nobody misses out because a rare alert popped and they weren't on.

Edited April 6, 2019 by (NSW)UncleSporky

[xMarvin732]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Wolfdoggie:

I hate caches so much. I'm terrible at finding them and they sometimes bug on certain maps. I just hate it so much, it's a huge waste of time. 

But yeah doing all these tedious time-sensitive chores for things you don't want for several months till you get the item you do want is pretty saddening. It goes against what they wanted for the game when they discusses daily login changes; giving us more choice. But none of that ever happened, they just made it worse.

Cervantes Earth is the easiest one 🙂 the Caches emit the sound as a sign they are close by and its really easy on that map since you don't have much of a hassle having a fight against enemies.

[IspanoLFW]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

What did Nightwave take away that wasn't already locked behind something?
Everything Nightwave took was locked behind RNG when it was under the Alert system & that system still forced players to do things they may not want to do.
Play a Defection mission for Nitain Extract? Everything Interception? Any Archwing Alert (for the bulk of the playerbase)?
All Nightwave did was offer a guaranteed path to obtaining these things at the player's discretion albeit with a minor time gate added to them (if you skip challenges).

Nightwave replacing Alerts was meant to help address the player complaints over the RNG aspect of Alerts, particularly the infamous 3 & 4 am Alerts for the actual good stuff, as well as the items that almost near never entered the rotation (IE: Steel Charge, Shield Disruption, Helmets for some Frames, Forma).

I wasn't trying to say your complaints aren't valid. (Sorry if I came across that way.)
I was just saying that Alerts were not the great system that the rose-tinted glasses folks are wearing around here make it seem like.
Alerts were quicker overall. (Depending on how you look at things.)
Most folks I've met in game (Newbie &  Veteran) pretty much ignored all of them, all the time.

Sure, Alerts had their own problems. But lets take a small comparison, okay? I had stopped playing for 5 years. Started playing again this last Novermberish. Within 2-3 months I had almost all Auras, Helmets(I only had Arcane ones, so I started with none for the most part), several potatoes and a good chunk of Nitain. 2-3 months, about the same as the length of a Nightwave "season." With rare exception did I wake up at weird hours for alerts, maybe once. There were many I missed too.

If Nightwave had been in place at the time... I would not have not gotten that far that easily/quickly at all.

So, again, Alerts had the randomness problem. But in my experience at least, Nightwave is a downgrade for all those things. I'd totally take the RNG of alerts over timegating effectively basic items(helmets excluded since those are cosmetic).

Edited April 6, 2019 by IspanoLFW

[Hamstertron]

20 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again: Nightwave should have been an a la carte system, with everything on the rep grind moved over to the cred offerings, and the tasks only rewarding creds to begin with. It should have *only* been creds and cred offerings- none of the rep grind at all.  

I completely agree with this. In fact I have said the same thing on the Warframe subreddit.

Further to that I would tie which challenges you get to your MR so that new players get more 1k tasks and higher MR players get fewer 1ks and more 3k and 5k tasks, since the 1ks seem to function as an extended tutorial.

Or maybe let people reroll things into lower level tasks so someone who hasn't done War Within can swap an impossible 5k "Do some sorties" to a 3k "Kill some eximii".

[smokednin]

Yeah, gotta be honest - I enjoy having reasons to do things I don't usually do, but I'm feeling the fatigue too.

For me it's the timer, knowing that I'm going to miss out on something cool and exclusive if I don't do all of these extremely specific things as soon as possible just makes it stressful and bothersome. Honestly it starts to feel more like work after a while, it's the reason I hated things like raids in MMOs. 

I just don't like feeling like I have to do something and I have to do it now in video games, I like to be able to take my time if I'm going to be progressing toward something. 

[BombtailsTheFox]

9 hours ago, Jinzanami said:

and they took the alert just to force us to use it, a total bs.

Because waiting for the good stuff that would pop in an alert at a certain time of the day is more rewarding...

Sure, Nightwave may not be that good on rewarding, but why bringing back a system that forces you to login on a specific day to get good stuff? Waiting 4 hours for a single nitain extract is boring, and most of the time, the rewards from alerts are stuff that you know where to farm. Once you unlock the Index, what purpose does have alerts that offers normal credits only? Same with Rathuum and other planets, once you unlock them, alerts that hosts a common resource, Forma or Endo as a reward, would be useful? Not to mention, that if you miss an Orokin Catalyst or Reactor alert, you have to wait more. Yes, purchasing the potatoes with wolf creds is also tedious, because you need to reach a certain rank to get said wolf creds. But at least you can get 5x nitain extracts, opposed to the one nitain extract from 4 hours.

I'm serious, it took me sometimes to build a Vauban Prime, because i had to wait for Nitain Extract alerts.

9 hours ago, Jinzanami said:

they need a competition

While is true that they require a competition... You know that a certain game, Anthem, failed to compete with other looter shooter games, because of what BioWare did to the game?

9 hours ago, Jinzanami said:

and a big content creator to expose they're crap just like Jim F Sterling did by chance.

For what reason, exactly? Because they removed a system?

I could understand if it was something very controversial (like shady nerfs, loot-boxes, game as a service, etc...), but exposing them because a system got removed? Really? It's like calling out GalaxyTrail for modifying Carol Tea's moveset, or exposing Valve because the pyro got nerfed, that barely makes sense.

Also Jim Sterling, on the video where he talked about Prime Unvaulting, put in the description this:

"For the most part, I'm a big fan of Warframe and its business model. However, if there's one thing that's proven regularly contentious, it's the Prime Vault.

So let's talk about a particular aspect of the Prime Vault that continues to aggravate invested players, and is worth Digital Extremes actually addressing."

Why even exposing someone for changing a system, while it could be simplier to talk to them, or make a video that says "Look, while Thing X is nice, it should need more work, or better yet, you should attempt to implement the removed Thing Y with Thing X."

[Nyx219]

21 hours ago, trst said:

As far as the whole "Nightwave makes us do content we don't want to do" how is this any different at all from the alert system? This statement applies to the alert system more than it does to Nightwave even.

You do realize that by arguing this with the wording you chose, you're effectively admitting NW is as much a steaming pile as you felt Alerts were because they're no different in the "I don't wanna" vein, right?