New player experience, just the first hour, resulting in ragequit and probably no return

[thurmack]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes, and I'm saying that in pointing out the forest, you missed the trees. 

I think maybe you've mixed up that metaphor, though please feel free to elaborate. You appear to be suggesting I took a macro perspective and missed the content of the message. I am literally pointing out that some guy didn't read the content, and then complained about it. I am pointing out the trees to a guy that called them fish. I didn't reference the forest (the general argument made by the OP) at all in my original reply. I only added additional notes in my second comment to give you context about my background so you can apply whatever value you'd like to my opinions.

I am not defending the parent's choices here - I only mentioned them in the second statement to say that I do not have enough information to judge his decisions. We don't know the kid, the parent, or anything about their relationship.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It being a long time since they've played the beginning of the game, doesn't work as you recently tried to pull up someone who pointed out how old the parent's account is and their activity since. 

Again I'm not clear if you don't understand what I'm saying, or I you. I said the player might be an older player of Warframe and may not recall what it was like to start out on Earth and right away encounter the Plains - he might not have steered the new player away because he did not recall how it quickly threw new players into high level action via the forced Konzu encounter. The fact that someone pulled out his experience with the game (2 years) only bolsters that possibility, so it seems odd to me that you referenced it as a challenge. Would you care to explain further?

 

[(XBOX)Artakka]

I didn't touch PoE until I was about MR15, I guess everybody's experience is different.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, thurmack said:

I think maybe you've mixed up that metaphor, though please feel free to elaborate. You appear to be suggesting I took a macro perspective and missed the content of the message. I am literally pointing out that some guy didn't read the content, and then complained about it. I am pointing out the trees to a guy that called them fish. I didn't reference the forest (the general argument made by the OP) at all in my original reply. I only added additional notes in my second comment to give you context about my background so you can apply whatever value you'd like to my opinions.

I am not defending the parent's choices here - I only mentioned them in the second statement to say that I do not have enough information to judge his decisions. We don't know the kid, the parent, or anything about their relationship

And I am saying that the person who responded had a valid point. The parent is not a newb. The parent said "we" chose to go to Cetus as the next step, although it's not. That indicates that the parent is feigning ignorance of the levels of enemies in the nodes of the starting planet. The fact that they are NOT a newb is relevant. These are all details that one should consider. 

Now the question becomes, "what reason would they have for doing so?"

1 hour ago, thurmack said:

Again I'm not clear if you don't understand what I'm saying, or I you. I said the player might be an older player of Warframe and may not recall what it was like to start out on Earth and right away encounter the Plains - he might not have steered the new player away because he did not recall how it quickly threw new players into high level action via the forced Konzu encounter. The fact that someone pulled out his experience with the game (2 years) only bolsters that possibility, so it seems odd to me that you referenced it as a challenge. Would you care to explain further?

Nope. 2 years of play means that the progression remains the same. It means that they have 2 years worth of experience knowing that the missions in this game have levels. That those levels correlate to how strong the enemies are in those nodes. That the general increase in node level goes Earth, Venus, Mercury, Mars. That Earth has 2 solar rails like most other planets and the first gives you your first Sentinel. That PoE has the highest levels of enemies on Earth. 

2 years of experience with an indication that they have played fairly recently, suggests that they should be more familiar with the game, not less. 

So again, what motives would they have had to do this? 

People talk about white-knight type behaviour. Many of those people tend to bash any aspect of the game that they can regardless of their own culpability in their problems.

In this case someone gave their child bad advice that lead to the child becoming highly frustrated. So they blame the game. That's what I see here. 

[thurmack]

During the day the enemies are not over dangerous, but new players are driven to konzu by a quest. The latter is the part that I am suggesting a veteran may not know. I am relatively new myself, but I get the impression that DE makes a lot of changes to plots, quests, and content so your experience at the beginning of the game may be dissimilar to a new player's experience.

[Chipputer]

Regardless of whether or not PoE is what the problem is, here, what happened to the days when we'd quit doing the thing that was too hard and try something else to see if, maybe, there was something easier for us to be doing so we could prepare for that thing that was too hard?

I get that this is a case of, "my child is younger and doesn't have as much patience," and I also get that the new player experience isn't nearly as coherent as it should be but with the breadth of nodes available on Earth why was there no attempt to actually do those other nodes to progress your equipment or mods? Why was there no attempt to read the Solar Rail requirements and take care of those?

There's absolutely no reason you should have rank 4-6 gear if you back out and do the other nodes around and return to the more difficult content later.
DE needs to do their part to make this all more obvious, yes, but you also need to do yours.

[thurmack]

1 minute ago, Chipputer said:

Regardless of whether or not PoE is what the problem is, here, what happened to the days when we'd quit doing the thing that was too hard and try something else to see if, maybe, there was something easier for us to be doing so we could prepare for that thing that was too hard?

I get that this is a case of, "my child is younger and doesn't have as much patience," and I also get that the new player experience isn't nearly as coherent as it should be but with the breadth of nodes available on Earth why was there no attempt to actually do those other nodes to progress your equipment or mods? Why was there no attempt to read the Solar Rail requirements and take care of those?

There's absolutely no reason you should have rank 4-6 gear if you back out and do the other nodes around and return to the more difficult content later.
DE needs to do their part to make this all more obvious, yes, but you also need to do yours.

I totally agree, this all falls under good playstyle. I was just discussing this recently - I miss the old Fallout 1&2-style sandbox where you could walk into a town and be outgunned, or drive off the beaten trail and encounter radscorpions that would eat your face. I dislike the level-scaling that has become almost ubiquitous these days, and even though I was wrecked by the Plains of Eidolon I didn't mind; I did as you suggested, and found other ways to develop my skills and my character abilities and equipment so I could come back and take on that challenge. When my sister and I first did a Nightmare mission we also got torn apart, but now I think we could have most of them and that amelioration of skill is part of what I find enjoyable about gaming.
I believe the OP was just suggesting that it might be counterproductive to specifically include very early on, and direct new players to, what is more accurately late- or endgame content both in terms of difficulty and plot. DE seems to agree, since it has been in their development discussions of late.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, thurmack said:

During the day the enemies are not over dangerous, but new players are driven to konzu by a quest. The latter is the part that I am suggesting a veteran may not know. I am relatively new myself, but I get the impression that DE makes a lot of changes to plots, quests, and content so your experience at the beginning of the game may be dissimilar to a new player's experience.

Try a top level bounty with an unleveled starter frame with starter weapons, no companion, unranked mods, broken mods, and fewer than 4 mods on any piece of gear. (Those conditions are needed for leaving Earth via the first option.) 

PoE, Saya's vigil, the bounties, the day and night mechanic, none of these are new. 

Yes the thumpers and the conservation are new. So is Fortuna on Venus. Other than that, the only major change affecting newbies I can think off offhand, is the kubrow quest including the materials in the rewards so that newbs don't need to make it halfway around the starchart to finish the quest. 

[KrazyKavatLady]

On 2019-05-12 at 4:44 AM, pook-pook said:

So once the Vor mission ends: "what am I supposed to do now???"

... You follow the quest storyline. Sorry but even my newbie friend that started 3 days ago was able to figure out that much.

[Hobie-wan]

Think about fantasy RPGs. If you start you game and talk to the king that asks you for help saving the land and then have the choice to go into the dark scary crypt in the graveyard next door or out into the bright meadow and kill slimes and such and one kicks your butt, perhaps you try the other direction to see how it works out.

[JoJoseph]

5 years ago after Vor the game was like: "Good job Tenno...now do stuff. Good luck" -_-"

Trust me when i tell you that you have more informations than older players about how the game works

But you do have more things to learn all at once; that much is true so i can't blame you.

[Xepthrichros]

This is what happens when DE tries too hard to make all content accessible to new players. They wander into a place they are not meant to be at, end up dying, misunderstand the game and leave, or complain about either "overpowered" enemies, or their so-called "overpowered" team mates.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Gentleman_Bird]

On 2019-05-12 at 7:30 AM, (PS4)OmegaFalrion said:

I mean... Very first thing you do is install the market... Which shows everything as plat to buy, rather blueprints... Which also drives people away

This. The first time I played the game and unlocked the market, I thought: "Oh, this is the premium store, I don't want this" and then I never touched it for a long time, and I had no idea how to find blueprints for new weapons.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, Xepthrichros said:

This is what happens when DE tries too hard to make all content accessible to new players.

That's ridiculous. I understand what you are trying to say, but you're saying it on a thread where multiple people have expressed similar sentiments about the content on the Plains not being geared to new players. The plains has content that is clearly not meant to be new player friendly and is marked with enemy levels to indicate as much. 

 

Having the free roam zones on the starter planets even though they're meant for higher level players, makes perfect sense from the business side of the equation. It lets newbs see what they can look forward to, even if they aren't able to participate yet. 

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2019-05-12 at 1:06 PM, GinKenshin said:

'does something that isn't suppose to be done'

'blames game for it' 

'quit' 

The problem is literally nothing tells you that you are not supposed to do that.

Its like you enter a dark room, flip the light switch and because of this the garage blows up because no one bothered to tell you that its not a light switch but a remote control to a bomb.

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2019-05-12 at 2:29 PM, WhiteMarker said:

Nobody held my hand when I started playing. I learned everything by doing it, by testing. I tried what I can do, or what I couldn't do.

Thats all nice and fine but if i go and turn down the wiki would you be able to tell me:

What are the color changed elemental effect do exactly on Chroma?

What ways can your primary guns fire damage targets inside the rift while you are outside?

What is the firing patter of the ignis?

Which frame skills grant status immunity?

What is the calculation difference between elemental and base damage mods?

What mods are not multiplicative but additive?

What are the damage efficiency ratios toward enemies?

In which order do you have to do nodes if you want to reach Mot?

What is the exact damage boost enemies in Mot have?

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats all nice and fine but if i go and turn down the wiki would you be able to tell me:

I'm sure you read all of my post.
I'm sure you read that I said that I like the fact that players help players discovering stuff.
I'm sure you understand that the Wiki is made by players testing stuff.
I'm sure you understand that I like the fact that not the game is telling me all this stuff, but the wiki, or other players are. From time to time I ask questions in chat. Just last week I learned that other players see my Phoenix Renewal Indicator on their screen. So they know if they died and got safed.
So yeah, if there was no wiki, then yes, this would be another story.
But if we didn't have the wiki, Warframe would basically be a single player game. And in this case the game needs to give more information. Thank god Warframe isn't single player. This way players can help each other. But helping doesn't mean holding hands. Helping means giving information if someone wants these information.
I like to test things myself. And if I fail to test something, or if I can't be bothered to test something, then I take a look at the wiki, YT or the forum.

Thank you for your post. I just don't agree with you.

[Test-995]

So, "this game is relying on community and it's a nice thing"?

Not untrue, warframe is totally a social game.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

I'm sure you read all of my post.
I'm sure you read that I said that I like the fact that players help players discovering stuff.
I'm sure you understand that the Wiki is made by players testing stuff.
I'm sure you understand that I like the fact that not the game is telling me all this stuff, but the wiki, or other players are. From time to time I ask questions in chat. Just last week I learned that other players see my Phoenix Renewal Indicator on their screen. So they know if they died and got safed.
So yeah, if there was no wiki, then yes, this would be another story.
But if we didn't have the wiki, Warframe would basically be a single player game. And in this case the game needs to give more information. Thank god Warframe isn't single player. This way players can help each other. But helping doesn't mean holding hands. Helping means giving information if someone wants these information.
I like to test things myself. And if I fail to test something, or if I can't be bothered to test something, then I take a look at the wiki, YT or the forum.

Thank you for your post. I just don't agree with you.

But thats the point, a good gaming experience should not rely on a player-made wiki and randomly asking EVERYTHING in the game just so you can progress a little.

For example i havent learned bullet jumping till i reached the mastery rank test what actually requied one to use in order to progress. If i remember right i was already farming at Akkad by the time i got there and learned about bullet jumping from a video i looked up in frustration.

Another example my brother always used 1 forma per polarity. Not as in you click on the slot and forma it to whatever polarity you want but 1 forma per polarity rotation, to get to - polarity he used up 3 formas because nowhere the game tells you its wrong and due to the process it even looks like its the natural way of formaing stuff.

Look at OP's post, the reason they havent asked if they should be there in the first place is because it felt natural to be there. Theres no pointers what say you are not supposed to be there, enemy levels and being generally harder than everything else is no longer an indication that you gone the wrong way.

 

[thurmack]

As an aside, there's also no indication what enemy level means. Usually it refers to character level, but in warframe there no connection so other than being able to say one zone is harder than another it's really not a very helpful indicator of what content is appropriate difficulty. To be fair, I'm not saying it needs to be more helpful, but you cannot fault a new player for thinking it relates to frame level, or average of frames and weapons, or sum of them since the game does not explain and every other operates that way.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The problem is literally nothing tells you that you are not supposed to do that.

Oh but the game lets you know when you are out of your depth, by killing you repeatedly. 

Then you are given the opportunity to back out, look at the mission levels and go "oh... Ohhhhhhhh!" 😲

Quote

Its like you enter a dark room, flip the light switch and because of this the garage blows up because no one bothered to tell you that its not a light switch but a remote control to a bomb.

That's called "a highly effective anti-intrusion device". 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

What is the firing patter of the ignis?

Oooh ooh! I know this one, it's that old song Nanny Ogg used to sing, "a wizard's staff has a knob on the end". Well it's either that or the hedgehog song. 😁

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

For example i havent learned bullet jumping till i reached the mastery rank test what actually requied one to use in order to progress. If i remember right i was already farming at Akkad by the time i got there and learned about bullet jumping from a video i looked up in frustration.

Same. I know that the initial tutorial gave us the information and I suppose I must've used it, but with no real reinforcement, that and much of the other stuff we had to do in the tutorial were promptly forgotten. 

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Look at OP's post, the reason they havent asked if they should be there in the first place is because it felt natural to be there. Theres no pointers what say you are not supposed to be there, enemy levels and being generally harder than everything else is no longer an indication that you gone the wrong way.

Sorry, but I disagree. Having played many games I can say that it usually becomes immediately apparent that you've taken a wrong turn, when you're a newb and everything starts killing you, ripping you into pieces and then wearing some of the pieces as a hat.

Bearing that in mind I suspect that a significant part of the frustration came from the assurance that they went the right way, that was given by a parent, who has advanced significantly in the game. 

I've never said that the game shouldn't improve their new player experience, and I do think that they should. But in this particular case, the OP apparently set their child up to fail. 

[Fallen_Echo]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh but the game lets you know when you are out of your depth, by killing you repeatedly. 

Then you are given the opportunity to back out, look at the mission levels and go "oh... Ohhhhhhhh!" 😲

Yeah but you can take that information in two different ways:

1. This is obviously a level not designed for me.
2. Im doing something wrong i should be able to progress throught here.

The skyrim mission with that cursed beacon meme comes to my mind where it is designed in a way that you cant back out of it once you started the mission and its supposedly for players medium to high levels.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Oooh ooh! I know this one, it's that old song Nanny Ogg used to sing, "a wizard's staff has a knob on the end". Well it's either that or the hedgehog song. 😁

I cant believe how fitting this is.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Same. I know that the initial tutorial gave us the information and I suppose I must've used it, but with no real reinforcement, that and much of the other stuff we had to do in the tutorial were promptly forgotten. 

Im pretty sure that the tutorial atleast when i started never actually had bullet jumping in it. I think the only reason i learned about double jumping is because its pretty standard in most action games.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

16 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Yeah but you can take that information in two different ways:

1. This is obviously a level not designed for me.
2. Im doing something wrong i should be able to progress throught here.

The skyrim mission with that cursed beacon meme comes to my mind where it is designed in a way that you cant back out of it once you started the mission and its supposedly for players medium to high levels.

I cant believe how fitting this is.

Im pretty sure that the tutorial atleast when i started never actually had bullet jumping in it. I think the only reason i learned about double jumping is because its pretty standard in most action games.

 

If memory serves, the information was kind of floating on walls and stuff. Some of it wasn't really needed to progress I think. 

[Chipputer]

29 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Im pretty sure that the tutorial atleast when i started never actually had bullet jumping in it.

It used to be wall running. However, after the update you were given the option to re-play the tutorial so you could learn about bullet jumping upon your next log in.

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats all nice and fine but if i go and turn down the wiki would you be able to tell me:

What are the color changed elemental effect do exactly on Chroma?

What ways can your primary guns fire damage targets inside the rift while you are outside?

What is the firing patter of the ignis?

Which frame skills grant status immunity?

What is the calculation difference between elemental and base damage mods?

What mods are not multiplicative but additive?

What are the damage efficiency ratios toward enemies?

In which order do you have to do nodes if you want to reach Mot?

What is the exact damage boost enemies in Mot have?

I don't know why you expect someone to know every little detail of the game. Nobody knows everything about the game but the core mechanics of it, basic modding, and effective strategies aren't hard to learn and come naturally to anyone who is actually adapting to the game as they play, experimenting, and learning.

You'll find numerous people that accidentally figured out that hybrid crit/status weapons were the most effective method to success in the general game without them even knowing a bit about why it works as well as it does. They simply know that the numbers are bigger or they come more often (or both) and the enemies die quicker.

Crying out loud, I'm willing to bet that if you gave this list to the developers directly responsible for the coding related to these questions they'd likely have to look it up to be sure.
EDIT: Except the Chroma one. That's a, "learn once and never forget," thing that you can figure out through experimentation or reading the information directly.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Chipputer

[Dr_Shadox]

Luckily you did not start in 2013 ... the game is so new-player-friendly now , but look like it's too much for some...

Also the region tchat help a lot and is full of plenty kind people who like help new players , don't be shy and don't forget you aren't realy a ninja , you can't handle anything from the start.

But yes i can understand it's not that an easy game on some point , it's less brainless than many game , but IMO it's a very good thing , it help to cleanse community from toxic people (i don't speak about you since i don't know you , i speak in a general way).


Sorry for my english.

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2019-05-13 at 2:08 AM, Zanchak said:

I just wonder why people don't even seem to poke around in the game or read anything anymore. I was lost as a noob too. I clicked everything, read everything, walked around my ship, looked at all the consoles, looked at chat, opened menus.... etc etc

Can it be made better? Most definitely, but common sense and a simple click here and there doesn't hurt either.

Too, the starmap itself is basically connect the dots nowadays, it's almost impossible to get lost. Click stuff.

this.. best advice ever to new player..

should have done the first few planets clearing all the node to get used to game play.. POE isnt what I would call newbie friendly when all you have is mk-1 Paris .. most probably with very few mods and not formed..