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(PS4)RenovaKunumaru

Wukong rework first impressions

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9 minutes ago, toyetic said:

Where did I mention the gif at all lmao. It is short compared to other melee weapons. This isn't even subjective lol. It's max length is a little larger than most good melee weapons at base, some even have more. And with primed reach on - which goes on literally every good melee build - most weapons that aren't fists or sparring weapons have much more range than it 

the gif regarding monkey's staff from china build. No srs Wukong player doesn't know about it. Everything short compared to that :P

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1 minute ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

the gif regarding monkey's staff from china build. No srs Wukong player doesn't know about it.

I know about the gif. I'm saying the actual NA build's staff is short not the china one

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Just now, toyetic said:

I know about the gif. I'm saying the actual NA build's staff is short not the china one

Then again china build retconned so ­čśü┬á

For now. Till range bonuses from stuff like that dies in range rework on melee 3

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10 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

I wanna talk about this a bit. But these abilities have a saving grace.

Volt, his shock increases the shields damage. Looking at the ability itself isn't how you should judge an ability. it's ynergy with the kit should also be taken into account. Volt's first is better that Iron Jab.
Nekros has an incredible augment if you're in a tile and can't manage to spare the time to revive a team mate. it instantly revives someone. yes the damage sucks, however in a pinch it can be great. Yet there are better augments and nopt many nekros use the Soul Punch augment, but that being said, with the augment it allows nekros to do something to other warframe can do.
As for Chroma, ember, and valkyr, yeah iron jab beats those. those desperately need a touch up.
 

Ah, I had forgotten about Nekros's augment, my bad. As for volt I've never really used his shield too often outside eidolons so I sort of forgot about that too.

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41 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

compared to that gif ofc not lmao. But saying it's short is madness.

Hate to say it but, Atterax, Orthos Prime, Zaws, Galatine Prime, lecta, and kesheg all beat this weapon in range. Even the War can hit enemies from farther away. And I don't even have my primed reach maxed. The damage is fine for it. But yes it is short. We Kong uses a staff, an EXALTED staff. Exalted weapons have been the best of their category with the exception of garuda, hildy, and baruuk because they aren't proper exalted or aren't built for damage. If not the best they at least compete with other weapons in the category the exalted weapon belongs to. In damage, Wuy Kong's staff is in rivaled. however it's got no range to speak of as it's a staff weapon. the reason staffs and pole arms are used is because they cleave large areas at once. Wu Kong doesn't follow this idea.

Maybe, just maybe if the Meta itself were changed and killing things as fast as humanly possible wasn't what defined a frame, Wu Kong would be in a better place. But he isn't. There should be a reason to use an exalted over another weapon, and considering killing things as fast as possible is the Meta atm, Wu Kong at his base crumbles. he can kill 3-4 enemies with primal fury, or 9-13 enemies with an orthos/zaw. Now maybe if Wu Kong had some mobility to his ult this would give him some saving grace but he doesn't even get that. he gets, SLOWER by using his combos to slam into the ground. he focuses on slam attacks, not cleaves. Slam Attacks don't give him any extra range or mobility, they hinder range and mobility. His entire kit fights kills per second. He can do some serious damage, but it's single target.

he needs to have some range on his stick, theres no reason not to. If not range, then give him some means of leaping to enemies so he doesn't have to wait. other pole weapons slaughter throngs of enemies, Wu Kong kills a bombard. What would you take into a ESO? 

Side Note, if you really want to kick wu kong for range, the Wolf Sledge, Sigma and Octanis, all glaives, and the Cobra and Crave, Zenistar, Whipblades, Redeemer, and Caustacyst all have more range in their own right.

Remember how I mentioned how Wu Kong is a slam attack focused frame. yeah, if DE really wanted to make that the focus of his kit, why in gods name does it have less aoe than the Vulnus? Seriously, the Volus can hit enemies with its slam from over 11 meters away at max rank. it even applies slash. His exalted weapon doesn't even dominate the field it's meant to be dominating.*atm*. I can't speak for the Arca Titron as I don't own it yet but if DE wanted this weapon to focus on something other than range because they like making weird weapons, then where is that special hidden perk. It's not range, it's not status or crit, it's def not slam flexibility even though his combos seem to involve SLAM SLAM SLAM SLAM.

yes you could say well he's got combos that let him move. Well... Orthos can let you slide attack which hits more enemies, hits for status and crit, builds a good combo counter, and moves you without some pauses in between. Put simply there is nothing this exalted has that makes it unique or powerful. there's no edge in any sense other than it's got some solid damage at a low range. it is short, maybe not compared to a sword, or a katana, but yes it's short.

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42 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Ah, I had forgotten about Nekros's augment, my bad. As for volt I've never really used his shield too often outside eidolons so I sort of forgot about that too.

I envy you... All my friends run volt and they make it a point to block my aim with shields and then make them as annoying as possible. I mean hey free damage but please MY EYES. Seriosuly i've gotten so good at running with an ally volt I can run nezha firewalker with the max volt speed buff and almost not knock into anything. I can shoot while pretty much blind because I've had to rely on my minimap. it's not something i'm proud of learning, send help┬á­čśĘ

Shock will never be removed from my mind, none of his abilities will.

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Posting again mostly just to try and add to the conversation, but if anything the broader problem with Wukong's kit to me is that his abilities are overall just... damage-dealing without much extra benefits.

Like, again, I liken him to an alt-Excalibur, so let's compare them, right?

  • Excalibur's 1 and Wukong's 1 are both damage-dealing melee attacks with their weapon, but Excalibur's is a dash that can chain into other enemies and moves him forward/around a little, while Wukong digs his heels in and just gives one enemy a little poke (which is apparently very glitchy in execution, judging from a video I watched the other day).
  • Excalibur's 2 is a blind ability that affects everything within sight-range┬áthat allows him to kill with impunity or use melee finishers but oh god animation lock why do I keep doing this by accident, while Wukong's 2 is a normally-situational (and relatively counter-able)┬áinvincibility ability that drains your energy.
  • Excalibur's 3 is the javelin thing that deals damage at range and can "stun" (pinning enemies to the floor or whatever), while Wukong's 3 is a sort-of-flight ability that makes him move way slower than normal, makes him invisible but still completely detectable by enemies and security measures, and lacks utility despite being a utility ability.
  • Excalibur's 4 is the Exalted Blade, which has the energy beam that makes up for the sword's okay range, while Wukong's 4 is the Exalted Staff┬áthat starts small and only gets bigger with combo counter, which partially defeats the point of it being a staff in the first place.

Wukong's issue is that his abilities lack the extra utility that someone like Excalibur's does, and since Defy is such a powerful ability that, when properly built around, is relatively easy to make loop back in on itself (except when you get hit by magnetic proc or run into literally any energy drain enemy ever), Wukong and Defy get memed into oblivion instead of people actually addressing the real problems.

If you ask me, what Wukong needs is some way to deal with crowds and possibly stun, stagger or knockdown enemies without relying entirely on just "please god please impact please". Instead of Iron Jab, what about an Iron Sweep, where he plants his feet and spins the iron staff in this really wide spin-attack arc with a really, really high chance to stagger or even knockdown enemies? (Maybe the augment could swap knockdown out for ragdoll, to keep that in?) What if his 4 automatically started at a maximum range, and you'd have high stagger/knockdown chance that could go even higher with the combo counter? What if, instead of Cloud Walker, you had a debuff ability similar to Blind/Javelin where enemies were surrounded by clouds that reduced their accuracy or stunned them or something, which would serve as a way better escape tool?

Like, sure, he doesn't bring a whole lot to the table in terms of group play, but at least he's on par with Excalibur in terms of being at least competent, and there's a clear synergy of melee, knockdowns/stuns, escape tools, and so on. I'm sure a metagamer could rip it apart, but since the few details of his actual rework paint a picture of not even having this amount of synergy, it's hard to be optimistic.

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7 hours ago, SkyBlueFox1 said:

Posting again mostly just to try and add to the conversation, but if anything the broader problem with Wukong's kit to me is that his abilities are overall just... damage-dealing without much extra benefits.

Like, again, I liken him to an alt-Excalibur, so let's compare them, right?

  • Excalibur's 1 and Wukong's 1 are both damage-dealing melee attacks with their weapon, but Excalibur's is a dash that can chain into other enemies and moves him forward/around a little, while Wukong digs his heels in and just gives one enemy a little poke (which is apparently very glitchy in execution, judging from a video I watched the other day).
  • Excalibur's 2 is a blind ability that affects everything within sight-range┬áthat allows him to kill with impunity or use melee finishers but oh god animation lock why do I keep doing this by accident, while Wukong's 2 is a normally-situational (and relatively counter-able)┬áinvincibility ability that drains your energy.
  • Excalibur's 3 is the javelin thing that deals damage at range and can "stun" (pinning enemies to the floor or whatever), while Wukong's 3 is a sort-of-flight ability that makes him move way slower than normal, makes him invisible but still completely detectable by enemies and security measures, and lacks utility despite being a utility ability.
  • Excalibur's 4 is the Exalted Blade, which has the energy beam that makes up for the sword's okay range, while Wukong's 4 is the Exalted Staff┬áthat starts small and only gets bigger with combo counter, which partially defeats the point of it being a staff in the first place.

Wukong's issue is that his abilities lack the extra utility that someone like Excalibur's does, and since Defy is such a powerful ability that, when properly built around, is relatively easy to make loop back in on itself (except when you get hit by magnetic proc or run into literally any energy drain enemy ever), Wukong and Defy get memed into oblivion instead of people actually addressing the real problems.

If you ask me, what Wukong needs is some way to deal with crowds and possibly stun, stagger or knockdown enemies without relying entirely on just "please god please impact please". Instead of Iron Jab, what about an Iron Sweep, where he plants his feet and spins the iron staff in this really wide spin-attack arc with a really, really high chance to stagger or even knockdown enemies? (Maybe the augment could swap knockdown out for ragdoll, to keep that in?) What if his 4 automatically started at a maximum range, and you'd have high stagger/knockdown chance that could go even higher with the combo counter? What if, instead of Cloud Walker, you had a debuff ability similar to Blind/Javelin where enemies were surrounded by clouds that reduced their accuracy or stunned them or something, which would serve as a way better escape tool?

Like, sure, he doesn't bring a whole lot to the table in terms of group play, but at least he's on par with Excalibur in terms of being at least competent, and there's a clear synergy of melee, knockdowns/stuns, escape tools, and so on. I'm sure a metagamer could rip it apart, but since the few details of his actual rework paint a picture of not even having this amount of synergy, it's hard to be optimistic.

Keep jab add sweep as charge cast. Simple solution. 

As is currently his use is very limited. Even among most wukongs very few ever use him for anything but defy. 

Thus why i put my rework for him in most threads regarding him xD. 

Crowds? gotchu with clone cloud bombs, shapeshifting ambushes or a shrinking barrier box, getting zerged? monkey's death resistant army on standby or huck your stick and break everything in it's way friend or foe, OR charge cast Iron jab.

Something a bit thic slowing your progress? unleash his stick and break them down literally. mobility? mock death and get faster or Use Iron jab on anything or throw his stick and leap to it ­čśä┬á

Want monkey to be THIC? dismiss clones and get corresponding buffs. Stealth? clouds function as free crowd control and hide you/allies. 

Only real complaint with it is high asf energy costs but clone presence affects that instead of efficiency :P

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22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Because that is what defy is based on how are you not you not understanding, and I said I'm not opposed to buffing and or adding some mechanic to this ability. And what is up with the condensing attitude I just pointed out how eager you were to have a built in Warframe specter which isn't the least bit interesting and almost as boring as defy because the game is basically playing it self. But insist on getting rid of defy which can be fixed with a decent balance. And defy is a core part of his lore and kit as I have to state again, if you don't believe me you can skim a wiki since that seems to be how much effort your putting into your argument. And really that's a very weak counter argument I've spent 4 years in this game.

Your literal opening phrase to your previous reply was "If you knew you what you were talking about...", and you somehow believe it is a smart idea to call me condescending. Your reply here is also completely vapid, and fails to do anything but restate what has already been debunked: what exactly is Defy based on here, and how does its current implementation embody that best? Which part of Wukong's lore does the current implementation of Defy specifically refer to, in a manner that couldn't be equally well-addressed by literally any other tank steroid? Again, all of this BS about how a toggle-to-not-die button is somehow critical to Wukong's lore and theme and whatnot all comes across as rather desperate, which suggests an ulterior, less honorable motive.

You'd also be right about specters if it weren't for the fact that DE specifically mentioned baked-in gameplay elements for Hair of the King, namely gun-melee alternation, and copying Wukong's 4: it's not just about deploying power, then, it's about using your kit and your clone to augment its effects. I can agree that there's more to be done, and I'd personally like to see Wukong's clone mirror his 2 and 3 as well, but as it stands it is already not an ability as utterly devoid of gameplay as the current Defy.

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yes... I get that but you will have teammates that will likey be killing the enemies before you use the movement speed in the cloud, the crit buff is questionable, But stealth is literally not a factor for Wukong because it's counter intuitive for defy have you ever used it?Not very impactful when you just use your primary and it gets the job done faster. Yes Wukong only trick is his survivability but this rework is to expand upon his kit and add what he is lacking.

... how can teammates kill enemies before you if you'll be moving faster than them? What if you're defending a stationary area? Why is stealth not valuable simply because Wukong is tanky? You do realize there are stealth missions in this game, right? Moreover, how exactly can you complain about the crit buff he's getting before immediately claiming that the rework isn't trying to push Wukong beyond the niche of simply being tanky?

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yeah I realize that but as I must state again. They are tacking buffs on to a dead ability how many times have you used cloud walker when playing a mission? Is a crit buff going to encourage you to use it more?

Yes, I have, and yes, I would. It's situationally good for stealth already, looks cool, and lets me fly. It's not spectacularly useful compared to many other abilities, but that is something directly addressed by increased movement speed and a crit bonus.

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

I don't know maybe if its significant but if it isn't and it's mediocre let me state this again. an ability that is movement based is more useless than parkour, has a minimal duration so you can apply stealth, and probably has a dismal crit chance.

"Probably" has a dismal crit chance? What exactly has led you to this conclusion, pray tell? What about the complaint about the movement speed, when you have literally no idea how strong the movement speed buff will be on an ability that enables flight? Flight is, by the way, inherently superior to parkour, which is why Archwings are used over regular movement for fast travel in open zones, so if Wukong can make himself quick enough, his 3 shouldn't be "more useless" than anything (also, parkour is useless now? Since when?).

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

yeah it's slightly better but it's still a dead ability that kills the speed of the game your wasting energy for what people usually complain about slow, clucky, and frankly boring abilities and your argument is displaying your ignorance on this topic.

... how? I've actually used the ability, and it is none of the things you described. The fact that you would call Wukong's more interactive abilities "boring", all while trying to defend his current Defy at all costs, smacks of hypocrisy, and suggests you may not really care about Wukong so much as about wanting to have yet another easymode tank.

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yeah I know It can be a great kit but the way we were presented the WIP rework really was disorganized, slapped together, and frankly nobody seemed to offer any attempt of asking the community for feedback like they did with Sayrn. Which already is questionable since this is a long awaited thing for the rework category, also this is was on the last devstream before tennocon which means we may or may not get in depth showings of the kit.

Saryn received a full-on thread detailing her rework right before it was made live. Wukong's announced changes are preliminary and still going through testing and fine-tuning: of course its presentation on the dev stream isn't going to be as perfectly presented as Saryn's thread, because DE is not nearly at the stage where it can produce such a document. They can, however, announce the broad lines of his rework and work from there, which is better than if they had kept silent until the last minute. As with the rest, this feels more like complaining for complaining's sake than a dispassionate, rational criticism.

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Tell me a redeeming quality about this ability post rework. Personally I would like it to be better but at the rate we're going this is not improving Wukong if any other frame got this buff then maybe it would be very beneficial to keep but for Wukong this is a no-go and yes you can have differing opinions I don't care but if these opinions are going to effect a frame that is going to change dramatically then I would like to know the reasoning instead of you just trying to be contrarian to the points I'm making.

See above, the ability has a unique mechanic, is one of the few that enables flight, is one of the few effects congruent to Wukong's theme and lore, and unlocks a stealth element on a tank, which is not only thematic to Wukong, but also opens up a new niche that can be developed upon. I shouldn't even have to justify myself on this, because ultimately you are the one putting forth the notion that this ability is poorly-designed, without any justification other than your loud opinion: tell me, why exactly is Cloud Walker boring? Why is it poor design? What is so fundamentally irredeemable about it that it needs to be replaced with something completely different?

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

This question I will come back to  and see if I find anything about that but it was an opinionated guess did you not read the title of the topic? Wukong rework first impressions and yes I don't know that's why i made the comments I did, If I knew I would lay it out and have a through discussion.

"First impressions" does not translate to "I will invent fake numbers in my head to justify the fact that I am talking out of my butt on the finer balance of a rework I know next to nothing about". You are certainly allowed to give your first impressions on the broad strokes of Wukong's announced rework, e.g. "I don't like Hair of the King" or the like, but what you are doing now is telling me with absolute, yet misplaced certainty that this rework will nerf Wukong, a claim that requires information you simply do not possess.

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

I did not say I was opposed to positive changes for this ability yes its passive but I would like to be interactive as much as anyone else but it wasn't stated to be recastable and that is a big Nerf yet we still have abilities like Revanent's but your not making a comparison on these 2 abilities Inaros has to work to keep his survivability.

Interactive how? Yes, we indeed have abilities like Revenant's 2 (which is itself significantly more active than Defy), and Inaros's base stats, yet as per my previous reply, I do not support these effects either. I do not personally believe a warframe's ability to tank damage should boil down to pressing a button for guaranteed tankiness over a duration, much less to just have such strong base stats that one can AFK tank high-level content. I am not defending these effects while exclusively attacking Defy, so your attempt at whataboutism here falls flat on its face.

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Full rework means all abilities. 1 was completely changed while better it's not very impactful. 2 seem to aggro enemies while nerfing the capability of his survivability by having it turn to a duration instead of a Google while seemingly not being recastable. 3 is the same except an increased speed while in that mode and a crit chance bonus s was applied. 4 was literally just melee 3.0 while having a Barruk styled meter which will restraint his 4 as I must say again, Inaros is very interactive because all he can do is CC survive and heal while Wukong is a pseudo aggressive tank with dismal CC.

... so, by your own description, literally every ability received some change. Half of Wukong's kit will be completely new. What exactly is the problem here, again?

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

As I have stated it was a first impression of the rework and i was assuming that would be the case based off what was shown.

But what was it that gave you that impression? Because I saw that same dev stream, and did not come to the same conclusion. Tell me precisely what it is you saw or heard that made you think that DE was expressly nerfing Wukong.

22 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

No a passive form of defy wear as he can't die but will.have hampered effects as in lowered movement speed which will give use to that cloud walker ability that you want to keep and making defy a passive will as I state again give him more room to work with a full rework of the kit.

So, in other words, the Wukong player would have absolutely no control over whether or not they could deactivate an effect that would spontaneously debuff their frame over prolonged durations. Brilliant. /s

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Honestly the wall of text is kind of redundant given the fact that his new 1 is AI-dependent already shoots any positive argument for it in the foot. Changing Defy was already a stupid move for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but Hair of the King is honestly the real killer here.

Like, in 750+ hours I managed to make it halfway through Perrin and Loka, then doubled-back and grinded Meridian, Arbiters and Suda so me and my two friends could share rewards. I've grinded oodles and oodles of standing, to the point of buying most of the Captura, multiple syndicate weapons and the occasional other thing.  Not to mention having helped Clem a lot, usually for kicks and then I remember why I don't like doing so and avoid it for a little while. Plus, y'know, rescue missions, defense sorties, that sort of thing.

So believe me when I say that my experience with friendly AI in Warframe is that most of the time, they clip into the floor or get stuck on the stairs or other bits of environment and never manage to get unstuck no matter how far away I move, and that more often than not I actively corral the syndicate helpers into an empty room and tell them to stay put because they are so useless and usually do more harm than good. So the fact that DE's answer to Wukong's niche playerbase is "remove the reason the people play him now, and give him an even worse gimmick based around unreliable AI that people actively avoid"? Not exactly something that inspires confidence.

Like, speaking personally, I can lose Defy. Hell, like I said, increase the drain so you have to deactivate and reactivate it more often, goodness knows putting that kind of pressure on the player would be enough. But losing Defy, removing a generic damage ability for a useless clone, keeping in an ability that nobody uses and nobody will use because it feels terrible to control, and just giving his 4 a flat buff?

Maybe instead of desperately trying to defend new-Wukong by complaining about an old ability that has hard counters within some enemy designs and an entire damage/status type, try taking a deep breath and actually thinking about how new-Wukong will play? Or rather, won't be played?

(Though if I really want to be cheeky here, it is in the nature of a Makuta to ignore the planet-sized obvious answer coming straight for his head, huh? ;u )

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4 minutes ago, SkyBlueFox1 said:

Honestly the wall of text is kind of redundant given the fact that his new 1 is AI-dependent already shoots any positive argument for it in the foot. Changing Defy was already a stupid move for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but Hair of the King is honestly the real killer here.

Like, in 750+ hours I managed to make it halfway through Perrin and Loka, then doubled-back and grinded Meridian, Arbiters and Suda so me and my two friends could share rewards. I've grinded oodles and oodles of standing, to the point of buying most of the Captura, multiple syndicate weapons and the occasional other thing.  Not to mention having helped Clem a lot, usually for kicks and then I remember why I don't like doing so and avoid it for a little while. Plus, y'know, rescue missions, defense sorties, that sort of thing.

So believe me when I say that my experience with friendly AI in Warframe is that most of the time, they clip into the floor or get stuck on the stairs or other bits of environment and never manage to get unstuck no matter how far away I move, and that more often than not I actively corral the syndicate helpers into an empty room and tell them to stay put because they are so useless and usually do more harm than good. So the fact that DE's answer to Wukong's niche playerbase is "remove the reason the people play him now, and give him an even worse gimmick based around unreliable AI that people actively avoid"? Not exactly something that inspires confidence.

Like, speaking personally, I can lose Defy. Hell, like I said, increase the drain so you have to deactivate and reactivate it more often, goodness knows putting that kind of pressure on the player would be enough. But losing Defy, removing a generic damage ability for a useless clone, keeping in an ability that nobody uses and nobody will use because it feels terrible to control, and just giving his 4 a flat buff?

Ik alot of people (including myself) were against the clone for the fact that AI has always been fairly bad in warframe. However I took sometime to read through patch notes and also test different AI abilities and can say from what i've seen its fine. Throughout update 22 there were a good amount of AI fixes solving alot of the same problems you mention throughout this post. On top of that from what i've tested with spectres, pets, and abilities they all seem fine. Obviously there were clips, bumps, and weird movements here and there. But for the most part it was serviceable and worked well enough to be utilized. I messed around with equinox's duality augment for a good 3 hours today and didn't find any major clipping or pathing problems that would keep me from using it in a sortie. I also messed around with Atlas's 4 and while it didn't do any damage, the pathing was find and would seek out enemies well. Warframe spectre/minion AI is far from perfect but as it is right now a clone ability akin to equinox's duality would be fine as far as AI is concerned. I implore you to go back and test out different AI abilities in warframe as they are right now and see if they're really as bad as alot of people make them seem.

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Update 22 or Update 23? Because I picked the game up again last November and played all the way through April (until the burnout finally hit me hard and I uninstalled), and I didn't notice any difference. If anything the AI problems were actually more obvious, partly because it was in those five months that I did a lot of the Arbiter and Suda grinding that I mentioned.

Like, granted, Suda's helpers were probably the most competent, but that's more because they had a beam weapon more than actual good AI.

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update 22 is where the patch notes reference fixing AI from clipping through things like grineer stairs.

Also all specters/minions/ai have 100% accuracy so that will help out his 1 a lot 

 

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No I get that, but I checked the wiki and Update 22 finished around this time back in 2018. I started playing again after that point and I was still noticing all the problems I discussed.

News to me that friendly AIs are aimbots, though. Genuinely never even noticed, which I guess says more about my experience with them than anything else, eheh.┬á┬Žp

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ya lol, they still do have a fair ways to go and like i said are far from perfect, but right now I think the AI will be servicable enough so that the hair of the king ability won't be a hindrance or negative 

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A few proposed changes. 

New 1st skill: Iron leap - wukong leaps akin to Garuda and jabs the enemy with the iron staff, sundering %armor based on strength. Castable without a target for mobility. Has a CD so it's not spammable like itzal. Augment makes the jab AOE around the target. Leaping to walls and latching should feel like a monkey.

Defy: taunts enemies in the area and makes wukong invulnerable for the duration. All dmg absorbed is discharged on the next slam attack 15m radius ( like old iron jab Aug gameplay). While on cooldown wukong gains %DR scaled by power str up to 90%.  You are most vulnerable in between casts like a invisibility frame. Should be a interactive defy, with periods of invulnerability, DR and vulnerability. Slam Aug was fun.

Hairs of the king: wukong summons his clone that mimicks whatever weapon he uses (changes as you change). Clone gets all benefits of defy, all dmg absorbed goes for Wukongs next slam. Augment spawns more monkeys.

Iron staff: castable without energy, no drain. Uses a meter, the more you kill with it the longer and more powerful it becomes. The higher the meter the more range and crit multiplier you get. The higher it goes the harder it is to maintain. Better combos and slight stat tweaks goes without saying.

Passive: Stone skin- 5% DR for each enemy nearby, up to 50%.

Second passive: Nimbus cloud - after being out of combat for 3s wukong leaps is his cloud and gains 50% movement speed. Attacking disables this. Basically a visual effect of him on a cloud with a MS buff to run around any map.

Base stats: more armor, and 1.1 Sprint speed so the cloud feels nice.

Credit for the 1st skill to DEMonkey for the Garuda leap idea, although I think I simplified it.

All of this is doable with what it's already in the game and mostly of what was shown to us already. Should make him tanky and not braindead, agile, with clones while not depending on them. 

Critique away.

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1 hour ago, MonkeyKV said:

A few proposed changes. 

New 1st skill: Iron leap - wukong leaps akin to Garuda and jabs the enemy with the iron staff, sundering %armor based on strength. Castable without a target for mobility. Has a CD so it's not spammable like itzal. Augment makes the jab AOE around the target. Leaping to walls and latching should feel like a monkey.

Defy: taunts enemies in the area and makes wukong invulnerable for the duration. All dmg absorbed is discharged on the next slam attack 15m radius ( like old iron jab Aug gameplay). While on cooldown wukong gains %DR scaled by power str up to 90%.  You are most vulnerable in between casts like a invisibility frame. Should be a interactive defy, with periods of invulnerability, DR and vulnerability. Slam Aug was fun.

Hairs of the king: wukong summons his clone that mimicks whatever weapon he uses (changes as you change). Clone gets all benefits of defy, all dmg absorbed goes for Wukongs next slam. Augment spawns more monkeys.

Iron staff: castable without energy, no drain. Uses a meter, the more you kill with it the longer and more powerful it becomes. The higher the meter the more range and crit multiplier you get. The higher it goes the harder it is to maintain. Better combos and slight stat tweaks goes without saying.

Passive: Stone skin- 5% DR for each enemy nearby, up to 50%.

Second passive: Nimbus cloud - after being out of combat for 3s wukong leaps is his cloud and gains 50% movement speed. Attacking disables this. Basically a visual effect of him on a cloud with a MS buff to run around any map.

Base stats: more armor, and 1.1 Sprint speed so the cloud feels nice.

Credit for the 1st skill to DEMonkey for the Garuda leap idea, although I think I simplified it.

All of this is doable with what it's already in the game and mostly of what was shown to us already. Should make him tanky and not braindead, agile, with clones while not depending on them. 

Critique away.

Clone expiration spawns clouds. Leap would make more sense as a charge cast of Iron Jab. 

Armor busting would feel better on his slam attacks in combo imo. Especially if it's locked behind a high tier of the meter. 

Clones would be more fun if there was utility behind them in the field. use them as resources via recalling for buffs.

Also why not just have the dmg store and throw the staff as an aoe via charge cast of his 4. Charge cast again to call it back or use his 1 to leap towards it. Make it affected by monkey's waypoint and reticle. 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

Clone´╗┐´╗┐ expiration spawns clouds. Leap would make more sense as a charge´╗┐ cast of Iron Jab´╗┐.´╗┐

Honestly I've yet to meet anyone who likes iron jab and the cloud (gameplay and visually). I honestly don't know why people want to keep those 2 skills. Each their own I guess. I find iron jab/sweep really bland ( it's gone anyways). Cloud is terribly visually, I'll be happy to never see that effect again.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

Armor´╗┐ busting would feel´╗┐ better on his slam attacks in combo imo. ´╗┐Especially if it's locked behind a high tier of´╗┐ the ´╗┐meter

With corrosive and shattering impact being a thing I'm not really a fan of another armor sundering on melee. Would like a IPS rebalance and maybe another look at shattering impact. But it could work, although having to keep a high KPS to have the effect would bother my relaxed style gameplay.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

Also´╗┐ why not just have ´╗┐the dmg store and throw the staff as an aoe via ´╗┐charge cast of his 4´╗┐

Brilliant idea honestly, instead of slam you throw the staff like the spear weapons. Although would need to make it work visually. Leaping without a target like I suggested would be enough to retrieve it or just make it targetable and you do a 360 spin on retrieving it ­čśÇ

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On 2019-05-25 at 4:32 AM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Wukong doesn't sound improved at all.

  • Giving Wukong a specter ability is worthless. We all know how effective AI specters are in Warframe.┬á
  • Wukong lost his permanent life with Defy
  • The problem with Wukong's┬á4 is that it isn't special. You might as well use a regular melee weapon than use his staff.

I'll respond to each point:

  • Allot of people were asking for the clone because it's in the story but┬áI'm worried about the AI┬átoo. I would have preferred change his one to an aoe┬á for example throwing his staff like a dual sided light saber then it would have scaled with his 4┬á
  • I'll miss Defy but it wasn't that strong. Wukong could easily be one hit by enemies who┬á drain energy as┬áit functioned┬á like a better quick thinking. They could add the quick thinking mod effect to┬áhis passive and we'd barely notice defy was gone.┬á
  • I like his 4 but it lacks style. I thought it would be cool if he could build up a meter to do an aoe with it, like a big ground slam. They did say something about a meter but I have no clue what exactly they mean by it.┬á

Ill add the change to cloud walker really depends how it's tuned. I like the idea of it functioning like Baruuk's  1 so he would be in cloud form while not attacking and would become solid when attacking. The problem is he may end up too baruuk like with that and his 4 changing  to be Baruuk like.

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Quote

(Though if I really want to be cheeky here, it is in the nature of a Makuta to ignore the planet-sized obvious answer coming straight for his head, huh? ;u )

All arguments aside, +1 for the reference.┬á­čśë

7 hours ago, SkyBlueFox1 said:

Honestly the wall of text is kind of redundant given the fact that his new 1 is AI-dependent already shoots any positive argument for it in the foot. Changing Defy was already a stupid move for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but Hair of the King is honestly the real killer here.

See, I can agree that the game's AI is bad... but then Duality is a thing, and it's popular enough for people to dedicate a slot on their warframe for an optional mod just to get it, which I feel should put more perspective on this argument. If Duality works, why can't Hair of the King?

Quote

Like, speaking personally, I can lose Defy. Hell, like I said, increase the drain so you have to deactivate and reactivate it more often, goodness knows putting that kind of pressure on the player would be enough. But losing Defy, removing a generic damage ability for a useless clone, keeping in an ability that nobody uses and nobody will use because it feels terrible to control, and just giving his 4 a flat buff?

Maybe instead of desperately trying to defend new-Wukong by complaining about an old ability that has hard counters within some enemy designs and an entire damage/status type, try taking a deep breath and actually thinking about how new-Wukong will play? Or rather, won't be played?

I mean, that's the thing, I can in fact imagine how Wukong can play: his 3 would become better for repositioning and sneak attacks, Defy looks like it could be a lifesaver in defensive missions, Hair of the King could similarly act as a damage multiplier and defensive ability, and his 4 could just be used like it is now as a solid weapon. Each ability has a specific, non-overlapping purpose, and these changes look to make him a good solo frame while also letting him contribute more than just tankiness in group combat, particularly with his taunt. Do I think this rework is perfect? Absolutely not, I can agree with DeMonkey especially that AI pets don't inherently provide gameplay on their own, and that while Hair of the King looks to have some genuine gameplay elements, I think it's going to need synergy with the rest of his kit to work at its fullest (which might just be the case). I also hope Wukong's 4 gets its range buffed, and not simply its damage. However, I do think the core direction is a solid attempt, and is likely to put Wukong in a much better place.

Meanwhile, so much of the knee-jerk complaints I see on this thread, as mentioned above, seem to obsess over the imagined certainty that Wukong will be nerfed, despite having absolutely zero data to work with, and despite the exact same type of idiotic argument getting unsuccessfully deployed right before Saryn and Nezha's immensely successful reworks. More disturbing still, many of these complaints obsess over the loss of the current Defy, when the ability was almost universally reviled right up until the announced rework: tell me, where were you or any of the tiny handful of vocal complainers here when people produced thread upon thread of Wukong reworks, virtually all of which suggested replacing Defy? What about the ones that all suggested clone abilities to fit his theme? Because as it stands, much of what DE is proposing seems to be lifted almost directly from player feedback on here, it's just that it also brought about the inevitable vocal minority of reactionaries. In this respect, whereas my mildly positive opinion of the rework is based on cautious optimism and awareness of larger context, the complaints made by you and a small handful of other posters (and it bears repeating that the number of people complaining about Wukong's proposed changes is rather small) focus entirely on catastrophizing and disproportionate attachment towards some of Wukong's most unpopular features. In this respect, it is your own position here that comes across as desperate, not to mention suspicious given the biggest criticism of the current Defy is that it makes Wukong so easy to play that he ceases to have any real gameplay.

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3 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

Honestly I've yet to meet anyone who likes iron jab and the cloud (gameplay and visually). I honestly don't know why people want to keep those 2 skills. Each their own I guess. I find iron jab/sweep really bland ( it's gone anyways). Cloud is terribly visually, I'll be happy to never see that effect again.

With corrosive and shattering impact being a thing I'm not really a fan of another armor sundering on melee. Would like a IPS rebalance and maybe another look at shattering impact. But it could work, although having to keep a high KPS to have the effect would bother my relaxed style gameplay.

Brilliant idea honestly, instead of slam you throw the staff like the spear weapons. Although would need to make it work visually. Leaping without a target like I suggested would be enough to retrieve it or just make it targetable and you do a 360 spin on retrieving it ­čśÇ

well can't say for others but imo they are fine ideas but how we implemented them thus far in the game is complete garbo. 

It's not the moves fault, moreso the execution of it. 

Iron Jab for mobility, get out of danger asap, pinpointed knockdown, wide sweep for bigger crowd control via knockdown. Then there's the unspoken of you could target friendlies including your own clones. On paper that sounds lackluster, however it's only limited by what you'd do with it instead. Untapped potential there that was heavily ignored by not just the devs but the community too.

In my rework it kept Iron Jab, gave it the sweep when Primal Fury was active. Clones took out Cloud walker and incorporated it into their framework in the 3 or so abilities in it. *made it cyclable, 1 clone spawning, 1 aggro wiping death trap upon finish, 1 shapeshifting ambush with terrain altering dot, 1 that kills off clones for tiered perm buffs reliant on living clones out, said buffs lasted till knocked down or killed* 

  • Said clones were instant killable via Iron Jab/Sweep as well. Meaning you could pick where they would die off and spawn the clouds. The clouds still retained making all friendlies in them invisible. Enemies would still remain stunned in them. But they also helped pull monkey from detection but jumping ontop of them. He'd gain speed increase ontop it. Combine that with the clone sacrifice move it would make the room fill with clouds instantly as it kills off all clones out.
  • Platforming becomes stupid easy even when nothing there. How much use one gets out of it would be reliant on the players decision making. It's not limiting in this way letting the player proceed as normal. Like for instance the clouds could be imbued elementally via the max tier buff in the clone sacrificial buff, making the clouds emit electricity on hostiles.
  • The ambush left cold proccing fluids that erupt into pyres of heavy cold dmg aura. When a clone dies over that it would carry the trait over to the clouds even when it wore off. And yes it could make magnetic if both were used in close succession.

Difference is i didn't limit him to just one clone, since the clones ended up being a resource. Making it so the clouds being a passive trait became a big advantage without hindering use of the actual frame. Iron Jab ends up playing a bigger role in his kit, the fact it can also mark enemies hit with Iron Jab/Sweep through Wukong or his clones eliminates some potential gripes with clone ai. Unlike cloud walker it wasn't beyond saving/becoming good. This setup thrives best when thinking like a cheeky monkey xD

Case in point list off some ways a new improved Iron jab could be utilized. 

That's also excluding how it's new dmg calculations wound up lmao. 

On another note. One more means to strip armor isn't a bad thing. We got plenty as is and is never a bad thing to have. Besides it fits a bit if you remember how heavy his staff really is ­čśä┬á17k lbs being slammed on you with full force. Pretty sure that would seriously damage armor.┬á

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Sad but true. I think DE are making horrible reworks intentionally so that you stop asking them to.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

well can't say for others but imo they are fine ideas but how we implemented them thus far in the game is complete garbo. 

It's not the moves fault, moreso the execution of it. 

Iron Jab for mobility, get out of danger asap, pinpointed knockdown, wide sweep for bigger crowd control via knockdown. Then there's the unspoken of you could target friendlies including your own clones. On paper that sounds lackluster, however it's only limited by what you'd do with it instead. Untapped potential there that was heavily ignored by not just the devs but the community too.

Look, I don't deny that Iron Jab has potential. When I look at trying to create reworks, I always try to find a way to make the current ability fit. but not for my own benefit, it's so that DE doesn't have to make new animations. I only recently started to post on the forums about rework concepts because I got bored waiting on the jovian update. I've found ways to make fireball and tesla viable. With all the potential I can see in iron Jab, I also see how easy it would be to allows iron jab to be added to primal fury as a combo by say channel and chargettack for a quick cast of "iron jab" but it's while Primal Fury is out.

I'm not opposed to keeping Iron Jab, but I am opposed to it being kept as a first ability. I can def see how it can be made to be useful, but not to the use of spores, or mallet, or heck even sonic boom from banshee. And that's an ability we banshee only use when were in a bad spot or have built to strip armor. Iron Jab just simply put doesn't have the funcionality. Yes it gives you an escape, but the thing with Wu Kong is for a warframe that is tanky and in folklore having a key point being "doesn't die" means the warframe shouldn't have an escape in the first place unless it makes sense in the trickster sort of way.

Whenever I look at how we can make a warframe ability better is I look at several things. I see more ways to use cloud walker than iron jab.
Is there any reason why this first ability exists and does it mix with the passive? well in this case no, because normal melee weapons can attack at a much farther range. If you want a large aoe knockdown from a far away range, glaives do that just fine and without any energy cost. 
Is there a charge to it? if so can we do something during the charge? in this case no there isn't, but you could add a charge to add a sweep but that doesn't do much but knock down enemies in a cone. Frost has a way better cc cone than that and with an augment it's effetcs last way longer. Moreso Wu Kong would need that less than Frost.
Is there some sort of channeling mechanic we can add? if so what buff would I give? well theres no channeling buff so, this doesn't matter for iron jab.
Can we give it some sort of scaling damage or secondary defense stripping, well... not without breaking it as the first ability which removes the need for Primal Fury in the first place, all the more reason to add it to Primal Fury.
Can we add something to the ability for added CC or Mobility? Well yes, yes we can. by making it a sweep you have cc but... if you're a tank with a rage build why would you want to cc enemies to not attack you. For mobility we can totally add that, but without any sort of side buff the ability would be forgotten, to point out examples, valkyr's ripline. This was forgotten and easily tossed aside because there wasn't a reason for it. It drags a SINGLE TARGET to you, or can make you have some semblence of control by sloppily tossing you to the enemy. Now we could add a finisher opening on the first abilty say Iron Jab into an enemy and appear at the location opening them for a finishere but then... what happens to ash? That's his thing. Wu Kong, and all other warframes should not mobility finishing abilities. Nezha's old halo before it became a damage tool and very quick and easily controlled teleportation ability was never used unless you wanted to self heal a small amount. Zephyr one, it has so much funcionality and has been merged with zephyrs abilities and buffed several times, and yet it's still forgotten. Mobility will help, but it'll be very situational at best due to the restaints of needing to respect another frames space.
Is there any synergy with his other abilities? If not, can ask DE to give synergy?  Put simply, no. theres none and the ability is too expensive for a simple 1 cc and knockdown ability in this day and age. Why not tonkor them down. Can we add synergy, well defy? hmmmm nope. cloud walker, maybe by pushing yourself into the air cloud walker can become free but that pushes you away from targets and people dislike cloud walker anyways.
Can we make him a support styled frame with this ability? If so how? To fit his theme, no, theres no way to make him help his team. Wu Kong is a selfish person who's got an ego. He will not help his team. Yes it would be funny to poke your allies like you suggest but, why? does this fit with him no, he's got the cloud walking boots, not his allies.
Would extra abilities be better, if so can we add a scroll wheel or simply make a completely different ability to replace the one in question. Well if it would fit his theme better, give him more flexibility, a unique identity with clones that he can summon with unique mechanics, then yes. Give him a different ability, maybe a scroll wheel. For Wu Kong, why would you give him a wheel. It's not like his thing is being flexible, it's being tricky or being tanky. Unlike Ivara, Vauban, Khora, and Wisp, who specialize in being flexible and have themes based around tricks and chaos, Wu Kong doesn't fit that idea. A scroll wheel wouldn't fit his theme and it's unneeded work for DE.

They've already created clones and most of the community sees it as better that clones replaced Iron Jab. They can make this better by adding some control to the clones. the more influence over the clones we have the less AI coding DE has to do. Again an example being atraus from God of War. you control what would normally be a stupid AI by controlling what weapons he uses and when to attack. You can modify and upgrade his gear. DE can copy this by doing what I said. Charge Attacks while in primal Fury would cause all clones to teleport and smack the target you charge attacked, even if from a distance. That would means you can recall your clones and force them onto a specific target. Direct Control means less AI support is needed. Remember i'm not someone who outright says yeah trash this nobody uses it, I actually do think of ways to improve an ability with the idea of "remove the ability" as a last resort option. If DE already has this animation and stuff don though for Wu Kong, all we can do is accept this and build off of it.

I'm on the side of removing Iron Jab. I feel sorry you want Iron jab to be kept and you're getting ignored. And I can see why you wouldn't want it to be removed. But DE will listen to the majority, as they have in the past. this is honestly a good change for Wu Kong and if handled properly can make Wu Kong the second warframe with "minion" build viability. the other being nekros. Clones, AI, and Specters are mostly unexplored in this game and I'd like it if DE actually focused more on this. This rework may hold more benefits than just a rework. If they actually work on the AI they can place that on operatives, defense targets, and even some enemies and assassins. I fully support his new first ability, even if it's a long shot.


 

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14 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

.. how´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ can teammates kill enemies before you if you'll be moving faster than´╗┐ them? What if you're defending a stationary area´╗┐´╗┐? Why is stealth not valuable simply because Wukong is tanky? You do realize there are stealth missions in this ´╗┐game, right? Moreover, how exactly can you´╗┐ ´╗┐complain about the crit buff he's getting before immediately claiming that the rework isn't trying to push Wukong beyond the niche of simply being tanky

Because while your in cloud while your movement speed is increased not when you get out, You may have a better dps frame around in the team also just because he gets a crit buff doesn't mean he is a new dps frame. Nidus got a crit Aug for his 1 while it increases his damage, he already deals out tons of damage anyway not to mention he has scaling. And the stealth wasn't shown to get any better also unlike the change to Volt's 3 Wukong still has a set stun radius of 8m, a drain, a distance for drain, has a start-up and ending animation and invisibility doesn't seem like a satisfying ability to use. The stealth gameplay excuse is poor because you can just parkour and use your operator. Also Wukong is only tanky because of defy and it's toggle maybe they can do something or maybe they'll fail, but not only is defy keeping him relevant but it's his only reason for being a tank He has no other strengths.

14 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Your´╗┐´╗┐ literal´╗┐ opening´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ phrase to your previous reply was "If you knew you what you were´╗┐ ´╗┐talking about...", and you somehow believe it is a smart ´╗┐´╗┐idea to call me condescending. Your´╗┐ reply here ´╗┐is also completely vapid, and fails to do ´╗┐anything but´╗┐´╗┐ restate what has already been debunked:┬áwhat┬áexactly is Defy based on here, and how ´╗┐does its current implementation embody that best? Which ´╗┐part of Wukong's lore does the current implementation of Defy┬áspecifically┬á´╗┐refer to, in a manner that couldn't be equally well-addressed´╗┐ by literally any other tank steroid? Again, al´╗┐l of this´╗┐ BS about how a toggle-to-not-die button is somehow critical to Wukong's lore and theme and´╗┐ whatnot all´╗┐ comes across as rather desperate, which suggests an ulterior, less honorable motive.´╗┐

You'd also be right about specters if it weren't for the fact that DE specifically mentioned baked-in gameplay elements for Hair of the King, namely gun-melee alternation, and copying Wukong's 4: it's not just about deploying power, then, it's about using your kit and your clone to augment its effects. I can agree that there's more to be done, and I'd personally like to see Wukong's clone mirror his 2 and 3 as well, but as it stands it is already not an ability as utterly devoid of gameplay as the current Defy´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐

Look I'm tired of the wall of text so I'll keep it short this time. You asked what defy has any business doing there and what it does it based on his feat to defy death itself and stay alive how ever long he wants an no it's not the most interactive ability and it's definitely unique in regard to the other abilities, yes I don't want defy to leave the kit because I can see it getting potential in this rework like an aoe buff per death, while Wukong is a "tank" he has mastery over magic and other feats D.e can draw upon instead of the trite ideas I'm seeing now.

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Probably´╗┐´╗┐" has a dismal crit chance? What exactly has led you to this conclusion, pray tell? What about the complaint about the movement speed, when you have literally no idea how strong the movement speed buff will be on an ability that ´╗┐enables flight? Flight is, by the way, inherently superior to parkour, which is why Archwings are used over regular movement for fast travel in open zones, so if Wukong ´╗┐can make himself quick enough, his 3 shouldn't be "more useless" than anything (also, parkour is useless now? Since´╗┐ when´╗┐´╗┐?´╗┐).´╗┐

It not going to be anything like Harrow's crit buff or Nidus's augment, It takes you out of gameplay, it has a start-up and ending animation, the range is small for the stun, the duration of the stun is small, In an area where you can have the option to use arch wing how is this even an argument? Of course you'll pick arch wing it just takes you from point a to point b. cloud walker will not, It has a duration and relies on energy and doors  don't even open that fast indoors, also parkour in not useless your  interpretation was wrong. Parkour is superior to cloud walker do not make anymore arguments for cloud walker it is a poor ability. 

 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

how´╗┐?´╗┐ I've actually used the ability, and it is none of the things you described. The fact that you would call Wukong's´╗┐ more´╗┐ interactive┬áabilities "boring", all while´╗┐ trying to defend his current Defy at all costs, smacks of hypocrisy, and suggests you may not really care about Wukong so much´╗┐ as about wanting to have yet another easymode tank´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐

I have already given my response to cloud Walker's inadequacy. If I did not care about Wukong I would have deleted him, not spent money on him, wouldn't have came to the forums to pitch ideas for a rework that would prove satisfactory to people other than my self, and would not have this back and forth with you if I did not care. And yes Wukong is easy not one frame in this game is difficult to grasp. So your demeaning of my skills is rather sad to say the least because you have shown you do not care.

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

See above, the ability has a unique mechanic, is one of the few that ´╗┐enables flight, is one of the few effects congruent to Wukong's ´╗┐theme and lore, and unlocks a stealth element on a tank, which is not only thematic to Wukong, but also opens up a new niche that can be developed upon. I shouldn't ´╗┐even have to justify myself on this, because ultimately you are the one putting forth the notion that this ability is poorly-designed, without any justification other ´╗┐than your loud opinion: tell me, why exactly is Cloud Walker´╗┐ boring? Why is it poor design? What is so fundamentally´╗┐ irredeemable about it that it needs to be replaced´╗┐ with something completely different?

I have already gave my reasoning for why this ability is poor above, yes this ability has unique implementation, all of Wukong's abilities post rework and WIP rework are congruent to his theme and lore, Inaros can do this as well and is more appealing. I have gave more reasoning in the paragraph above.

 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I am´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ not defending these effects while exclusively ´╗┐attacking Defy, so your attempt at whataboutism here falls flat ´╗┐on ´╗┐its face´╗┐.´╗┐´╗┐

If you would like to see what I would propose let me know so I can show you what I mean.

 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

so´╗┐, by your own description, literally every ability received some change. Half of Wukong's kit will be completely new. What exactly is the problem here, again?

The problem is it's poor. for now I do not know if it will get better or worse but from what I've seen if this was in-game this rework wouldn't outshine the current kit by much. And the 4 from what I heard on the devstream was Barruk's meter lock and just melee 3.0 which is counter intuitive to Wukong's lore and theme.

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But´╗┐┬áwhat┬áwas´╗┐ it tha´╗┐t gave you that impression´╗┐? Because I saw that same dev stream, and did not come to the sa´╗┐me ´╗┐con´╗┐clusio´╗┐n. Tell me precisely what it is you saw or heard that´╗┐ ´╗┐mad´╗┐e you think that DE was expressly nerfing Wukon´╗┐g

Rebecca saying " so if your upset that defy is I assure you that the other 3 abilities all getting significantly buffed will make up for it" now from what we've seen

1. Taunts for you and the clone, clone is shown to have a health bar there was no meantion of it having scaled attack or defenses like Atlas 4  or Equinox aug also the duration is short and just because it can hold the opposite weapon you doesn't make it any better it's just a CO applier.

2. could not be shown but it will not heal while invulnerable as heard or displayed who knows it can change or retain it's 75% restoration and energy multipler.

3. I have already gone over but if you are that desperate on keeping this ability then it would go great with the passive I mentioned for defy that you mocked earlier 

4. clone can also use in tandem with Wukong this I don't mind but isn't really that impressive, lock behind a Baruuk styled rage meter which is contradictory to his kit and lore and why you praised his 3 and 1

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

is´╗┐ one of´╗┐ the few effects congruent to Wukong's ´╗┐theme and lore, ´╗┐´╗┐

and is just improved partial because of Melee 3.0 changes

if you really do care about Wukong then I won't fight you on that, and we can agree to disagree and I would like to see a kit you proposed.

 

 

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