Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

[(PSN)jman10089]

13 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Like... a pine tree? 

Yeah, there are better things to transform into, I proposed that Cloudwalker be turned into a Shapeshifting ability, with the cloud being one of the forms so as to not lose any potential use from it.

At least when he dies as a pine tree he would do some major damage.... buuuuut it would be impact damage and we should also get the added effect of someone calling out timber which would already make it better than a cloud. and please work towards that even if it takes longer to get out it would be better than getting stuck with something boring for the next 4-5 years.

[GoldenPhaze]

I feel as though his passive should have a 100-200sec cool down rather than just being a 1 time a mission thing. is it really a passive if it isnt passively active at all times? just my honest opinion tho

[ShogunGunshow]

Mechanics that encourage you to court death are terrible and go against the flow of the game. This goes double if you can only do so a few times per mission. And goes triple if you can't even determine what buff you're going to get. It's an awful passive, and doesn't even thematically fit with Wukong. (If you wanted a 'limited number of times you can be saved from almost certain death' passive, Valkyr cats-have-nine-lives-frame is RIGHT THERE.) 

I'm going to miss the hell out of Iron Vault. Nothing like whipping out the Arca Triton, building up a full charge, then using Iron Vault and dropping a megaton nuke on the enemy. I enjoyed that build, and wish DE would stop removing ways to play from the game with every rework.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

16 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I'm going to miss the hell out of Iron Vault. Nothing like whipping out the Arca Triton, building up a full charge, then using Iron Vault and dropping a megaton nuke on the enemy. I enjoyed that build, and wish DE would stop removing ways to play from the game with every rework.

Though I too will miss the mega nuke I fully disagree with your last point about removing ways to play the game. Yes, they are removing a niche build and his immortality, but from the looks of it they are expanding upon wukong's abilities quite extensively therefore adding many more ways to play the game and build the frame. I will happily sacrifice the one wukong build I used in a mission a handful of times so that I can build him three different ways all focusing on a different part of his kit.

[Blade-Ace]

As A Wukong main I have some questions, concerns, and suggestions.

First, Primal Furys' range cap of 200% from base in the Original iteration is much to low and I do not see any mention of that being able to be modified beyond that. As this is an Exalted Weapon can I assume the Wukongs' modified ability range will affect the Iron staff? Will the modified range of the Iron Staff be additive to the range if beyond 200%? I very much approve of the energy drain being stopped when a kill is made. While in heavy combat I tend to lose track of it. Being duration based I can now focus on power strength and range rather then efficiency to upkeep my ability's safely.

Second, God mode Defy was indeed a crutch. I enjoy the idea of being able to take a hard hit and give it back unscathed. With the passive taking over much of the life saving this seems a much better option in a bad situation. As long as Cloud Walker and Life Strike can brunt the load of fast healing otherwise. However, I would like my Bow or Rifle to have some use here. At least let me get one shot out with the stored damage for a short duration. Chroma can't be the only monster hunter in town. I like to 'Defy" the gods too.

Third, Cloud walker is aesthetically unpleasing. The whole cloud thing is fun but give me a silhouette of Wukong on Nimbus in the cloud. That alone will satisfy the fan boy in me. Also, please make the speed affected by sprint mods. I want to fly not float. Perhaps just give me a deluxe Nimbus Skin for my K-Drive.

Fourth, Celestial Twin looks amazing and fun. My concern is that I can not command him to do anything other than attack. Let me tap to change his behavior as I can with Venari, Hold to command him to focus on one target, Tap to change between each mode, and hold for a while longer to disperse him. Some spy vaults will be impossible if he just runs in and trips the alarm. I want him to be versatile and strong.

[Narubion]

Sooo - where do I start? 
First of all: Thanks for taking defy and changing it to be an active - and strategic ability instead of a nearly permanent "dev-mode-invincabilty" like Rebb likes to use on stream 🙂
I really like the idea of moving his "10.000 lives" into a passive ability. Having it RNG based on the other hand is nothing I can understand. 
In my opinion it would be nicer to have 2-3 survives based on a set cycle (with or without boni added to them) and add a way to gain more "defys" during the mission (up to a limit of the beginning)
This way this passive would be more viable for longer and/or harder missions. 

The usefulness of his other abilities is very much based on: How long/strong/powerful are the abilities at base and how/how far are they scaling with duration, efficiency, range and strength. The ideas sound solid but we'll need to see them in action. 
For example: If the taunt of his 3 is 1 1/2 seconds (like seen in the gif) and reflects 100% damage absorbed and gives 200 armor for 5 seconds, I'd instead use rolling guard for defense. 
If the stats are more like: up to 4 seconds taunt, 6000+% reflect (like the javlok amalgam mod) and up to 500 armor for 40+ seconds, nobody would ask about its usefulness. 

Thanks for your hard work, 
see you at TennoCon!

[ShogunGunshow]

34 minutes ago, Obe-Ron-Kenobi said:

Though I too will miss the mega nuke I fully disagree with your last point about removing ways to play the game. Yes, they are removing a niche build and his immortality, but from the looks of it they are expanding upon wukong's abilities quite extensively therefore adding many more ways to play the game and build the frame. I will happily sacrifice the one wukong build I used in a mission a handful of times so that I can build him three different ways all focusing on a different part of his kit.

Personally, I think if anything should be removed, it should be Defy.

Put Celestial Twin in its slot. Give him health-link with his twin so that you split damage with your twin to make up for the loss in mitigation. Make it so that if Wukong 'dies' with his Twin active, the Twin pops instead, providing Wukong with the buff ability of his passive and a few seconds of invulnerability and health regen. Way more thematically appropriate.

Then you bake the spin effect into Iron Jab. Rename Iron Jab to Iron Tempest. Tapping the ability casts it as normal. Holding the ability button triggers the new Defy absorb effect. This gives his #1 more utility and choices to make when using it, his #3 now has an element of resource management (trying to top off in the invulnerability window), gets rid of a generic, unflavorful ability, and preserves current active builds while still allowing them to get rid of the non-interactive DefyRage one while replacing it with Spectral Twin. 

I'd MUCH prefer that.

[DeMonkey]

22 minutes ago, Blade-Ace said:

First, Primal Furys' range cap of 200% from base in the Original iteration is much to low and I do not see any mention of that being able to be modified beyond that. As this is an Exalted Weapon can I assume the Wukongs' modified ability range will affect the Iron staff? Will the modified range of the Iron Staff be additive to the range if beyond 200%? I very much approve of the energy drain being stopped when a kill is made. While in heavy combat I tend to lose track of it. Being duration based I can now focus on power strength and range rather then efficiency to upkeep my ability's safely

I feel like you didn't actually read the bit about Primal Fury.

Twice it's mentioned that it's getting a range buff, based on wording the cap no longer exists as its length no longer grows with the combo.

The energy drain doesn't stop when killing an enemy, the only thing that comes close that you could have confused this with is Primal Rage, the augment, where the drain to the crit chance will no longer happen right after killing an enemy.

The energy drain has actually been increased.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

59 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Personally, I think if anything should be removed, it should be Defy.

Put Celestial Twin in its slot. Give him health-link with his twin so that you split damage with your twin to make up for the loss in mitigation. Make it so that if Wukong 'dies' with his Twin active, the Twin pops instead, providing Wukong with the buff ability of his passive and a few seconds of invulnerability and health regen. Way more thematically appropriate.

Then you bake the spin effect into Iron Jab. Rename Iron Jab to Iron Tempest. Tapping the ability casts it as normal. Holding the ability button triggers the new Defy absorb effect. This gives his #1 more utility and choices to make when using it, his #3 now has an element of resource management (trying to top off in the invulnerability window), gets rid of a generic, unflavorful ability, and preserves current active builds while still allowing them to get rid of the non-interactive DefyRage one while replacing it with Spectral Twin. 

I'd MUCH prefer that.

These are some excellent ideas! 

[Blade-Ace]

41 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I feel like you didn't actually read the bit about Primal Fury.

Twice it's mentioned that it's getting a range buff, based on wording the cap no longer exists as its length no longer grows with the combo.

The energy drain doesn't stop when killing an enemy, the only thing that comes close that you could have confused this with is Primal Rage, the augment, where the drain to the crit chance will no longer happen right after killing an enemy.

The energy drain has actually been increased.

Ah. I got the critical drain and energy drain confused. But, to my point of the range boost, they have not explicitly stated the range cap is removed.

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, Blade-Ace said:

But, to my point of the range boost, they have not explicitly stated the range cap is removed

They have, it states, "larger base range" which implies it's moddable.

It also states, "The range of Wukong’s Iron Staff is always long, comparable to top range Zaws, and no longer needs to build combo to scale range." which means the built in range cap no longer exists as it's entire reason for existing (the staff growing) is no longer a part of it.

Based on this the conclusion is it'll be treated like any other weapon with regards to range, base range < reach < primed reach. 

[Olianu]

While I am quietly optimistic about this rework and I understand most of the changes.  I have major questions in one that comes with your conconcept on the new Defy.
 

On 2019-06-13 at 12:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Based on the amount of damage prevented by Defy, Wukong and his clone will receive a temporary armour buff

How Temporary is Temporary?  Is it going to degenerate slowly over time like what happens with Atlas or is it just going to flat disappear?  I can see the latter option being an issue going getting hit for ten time the damage because you had a lapse in concentration. 

Now for the minor thoughts and question.

Thank you for not removing Cloud Walker, but rather improving it.  This is my favorite part of his kit being able to just slink by enemies.  Will we still be able to walk across gaps (my favorite function of it) or will it act more like a traditional Loki/Ivara vanish now?

Thank you for improving status chance on the staff and altering how the mod will work with it.  It gives me a reason to try primal fury for once.  Although the energy drain you need to be precocious about as making the drain too much can be problematic for his overall functionality with the use.

As for the clone, having an ally that acts like an Equinox clone but lasts longer.  I think that will be neat in concept and only hope it translates well.  Is the health carbon copy of Wukong, or will it be modded by power strength?

[Chatv71e]

On 2019-06-13 at 8:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Celestial Twin

• Replacing Iron Jab, Celestial Twin will allow for Wukong to shed a part of himself to call a supporting clone into action. The clone will attack from range while Wukong uses melee, or will use melee while Wukong uses range.
• Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.
• Wukong’s clone will remain until it runs out of life.

Reasons for changes: Iron Jab is being replaced as it essentially exists as a weaker version of other powers. Wukong’s Ultimate can fulfill and surpass the role of Iron Jab, while fulfilling more of Wukong’s lore and creating a more powerful, synergized kit.

Please fix at least some of the existing issues with Specters before you add up another warframe to a missery club of specter summoners. 

 

[(XBOX)Adaptabilty]

10 hours ago, (PS4)jman10089 said:

Okay everyone that thinks the cloud walker is good now let me remind you it is still basically a flying version of hydroid's puddle with it's augment and while the puddle is slow it actually is a good ability and does damage. The new cloud walker not only doesn't allow you to take advantage of the stealth multiplier most other stealth abilities can it also does not allow you to interact with anything while using it  just like the old cloud walker. It will literally just be a healing ability that does not fit on the frame, nor in the lore of wukong he has no healing abilities in the lore because he doesn't need it he is 6 times immortal. I get that there are people that don't want the set it and leave it gameplay but that is just how wukong in lore. But this ability is boring and a limbo with a ghost sentinel would actually work just as well. And what's really bad is that it still an ability that forces you to leave combat in order to heal that, even the puddle allows you to still fight when healing as a puddle. But yes I concede the fact that leaving the cloud is easier and quicker than leaving the puddle since you can melee out but still unless the heal is instant full health then it would take you out of the game for longer than what is acceptable. We don't need to settle with just another mediocre ability like this because DE has already shown that they are willing to take an ability out when they took iron jab and traded it for celestial twin, and I don't believe we need the cloud. The changes are  just like you had pancakes no syrup just pancakes then this person came in and said "hmm the pancakes need syrup" though no one wants them they now have pancakes and syrup with their kungpao chicken. Also cloud walker is based on the cloud that let the wukong somersault halfway around the world if anything it should be a passive that enhances bullet jumping and give him a cool visual at most.

Um, the cloud, while yes, he does technically ride on it and not transform into it, the could is just a reference to his nimbus. Also, the armor buff is nothing without health, and needs survivability so it most definitely fits his kit. The stealth mechanic is just so you can go through doors it's nothing serious, it's just a bonus, it's purely better. 

[(XBOX)Adaptabilty]

Man next to the recent ember changes this is easily one of the most divisive posts.

[(PSN)DeathKing841]

since you are going off the Chinese Wukong why not making transform into some other things

[Otakuwolf]

About that passive:

1) Primal forces: Why only elemental damage ? Can it be overall damage ?

2) Sly alchemy: What if there are no orbs ? Can it be an increased health/energy regen instead ?

3) 3 death defiance per mission feel too little, can it be on a timer like Oberon's Phoenix revival ?

4) Having these bonuses based on RNG feels a bit clunky, can there be a way to somewhat control which one/s to activate, pls ?

 

Thatìs my feedback and TY for your time on the rework ^.^ !

[DeMonkey]

15 minutes ago, Otakuwolf said:

Why only elemental damage ?

Wukong was capable of elemental magic, taught to him during the process of attaining his first (of 5) level of immortality. 

[CMD0bvious]

Personal opinion on the changes: they don't seem to flow into other abilities, also his passive, while nice, is really inconsistent and unintuitive, requiring the user to actively seek death if they want to benefit from it on a regular basis.

- Passive should renew over time or over some secondary resource that can be generated by Wukong's abilities (for example: taking x amount of damage without dying restores one revive or taking damage reduces the time taken to refresh the passive). Passive buffs also apply to team members in affinity range for half of the duration.

• If the caster already has three charges of his revives, he automatically receives one of the passive buffs when he receives enough damage to "gain" another charge.
• You can select which three buffs you want to receive in the arsenal, rather than them being randomly picked. This reduces the random element and allows users to gear their buffs toward their play style or build.

- The twin spawned Celestial Twin should be able to be commanded to use either the caster's primary, secondary or melee weapon by tapping the <Ability 2> key, similar to Ivara's quiver or Vauban's Minelayer.

• Damage that the caster takes is split between them and their twin. Only the damage the caster takes renews the passive.
• If the twin dies, the caster gets one of the passive buffs. This increases the consistency and chance the caster can benefit from the passive.

- Cloud Walker deflects any damage that would be taken by a nimbus riding Wukong or his twin is deflected onto enemies in a 10/11.25/12.5/13.75 metre radius of the caster or the twin, this mitigated damage contributes to the passive.

      > Enveloping Cloud now provides the ability's protection to allies in the ability radius of the caster while active but will reduce the ability's efficiency by 50%.

• The more enemies in the nimbus, the higher the drain (0.75/sec per enemy).
• The nimbus can hold up to 5/7/9/11 enemies (at ranks 0/1/2/3).

- Defy should be more like Harrow's Covenant and less like Nyx's Absorb. Convert damage mitigated into a team damage buff while also activating one of the passive buffs for its "retaliation" duration. This provides some team support while also adding some consistency to Wukong's passive buffs. 

- Primal Fury's energy drain is reduced by 15% for each remaining charge of his passive ability, and a further 5% for each active passive buff.

EDIT 1: Forgot to add a few vital bits to better meet the "flow into other abilities" criteria I listed above.

EDIT 2: Accidentally called Primal Fury Primal Rage.

[Chatv71e]

11 minutes ago, CMD0bvious said:

 

• If the twin dies, the caster gets one of the passive buffs. This increases the consistency and chance the caster can benefit from the passive.

 

And then people would teamkill the clone 5000 times to stack up the resource buff and pop that kuva siphon for 1 mill kuva XDDD

 

I like the idea, ples add to the game

[Otakuwolf]

3 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Wukong was capable of elemental magic, taught to him during the process of attaining his first (of 5) level of immortality. 

I see... still, even if lore-wise he had elemental magic, game-wise it would be more beneficial (and, I belive, more code-efficent) to have overall damage increased (which also includes the elemental damage) rather than just the elemental portion of it.

[FreeWilliam]

I like it.

I'm a bit iffy on the passive but everything else looks like it's really hitting the sweet spot.  🙂

[Giantconch]

On 2019-06-13 at 5:29 PM, (XB1)TrS DTKW said:

I’m happy to admit that lvl 100 content that’s restricted on energy with enemies that can 1 shot most of my frame is hard no prob bro and thanks for agreeing that Inaros atm is as useful as dirt since you never denied me

 

Didnt need to, as you made it abundantly clear you have no idea how to mod frames and crutch on an overpowered unkillable-state frame, therefor your opinion on another frames tankiness, survivability, etc. is completely irrelevant 🙂

[MunkiiJunkii]

Could we have the one let us swap between the two clones? That would be lovely. Also the passive should def not have some weird cap. What if instead right you had to get Fury stacks like Nidus gets his stacks. So when you kill with the staff you gain Fury or hair or something that allows you to use the passive when you die. The more fury you gain you get stronger more Armor and Damage giving you a damage mitigation at max stacks. Using your clone uses either flat amount of the Fury or Hairs you gain. Allowing you to make more clones if you hold 1 down you can get up to 3 Clones out that will have Melee, Main Weapon, Side arm and when you go Ult they all go ult and run around. But when you take a fatal blow you lose half or all your stacks or something.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Seems obvious to me that the passive needs a reconsideration if only because endless endurance runs are a thing, and the passive has a limited number of activations, whereas all other passives I can think of are just "always on" and would retain their use for however long you are in a mission.

The solution of some mechanic to earn those charges for autorevive is good. Either survive 5min or kill # of enemies are good examples. Even a 2min oberon style autorevive mechanic.

Another that I would suggest is triggering the (random if neccessary) passive buffs part of the passive any time a clone dies. This would be a condition acheivable for the duration of any mission.

As I posted previously, and others have also put forth: I would remove the autorevive from the passive and make it so if you take fatal damage while a clone is alive, it dies in your place instead. With the passive moved to the death of clones, it is useful and does not encourage suicidal play or penalize us for stupid specter ai. Will it be too easy to keep a clone up when it matters? (During long endurance runs) or will it be dying so often that you have to constantly bring it back through reuse of the skill... so it is very much an active method of keeping yourself alive and buffed.