Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

[LSG501]

1 - ok, better than the old one but it does feel like a rip off of equinox duality.... although to be honest, if I want a clone to help with damage mirage and equinox duality are much better options imo.

2 - well it's faster, regens health and allows you to do spy without setting alarms off (always nice for another frame to work for this) so no big issues there.

3 - Sorry, doesn't matter how energetic and positive you are about the rework in the stream, I still feel it's a nerf over the old ability even after you showed it.... if I want armor which is capped at 1500 anyway I can take valkyr, I can take inaros which has negation swarm augment, I can take any of the 90% damage reduction frames ... and to top it off none of those are forcing me to go slower just to get a temporary buff.

You say the damage reduction of around 80% is validated instead of the 90% others have because of it's health regen... um nezha (2nd ability) and inaros (passive and ability) can both regen health, inaros can even get a little sand based helper.....not to mention there's life steal and operator modes which can heal us pretty quickly now too.  

It honestly feels like a change 'to make it look like something's been done', rather than it being 'better'. 

This lacks the synergy of the old version where we could use defy, rage and life steal to allow melee players to face tank, a play style some of us actually like... I'd rather be killing stuff without worrying over a timer or having to trigger an action to get a buff.   Being interactive with a frame doesn't just mean needing to press an ability after a duration has run out, interactive can also be about how you're using the frame because of an abililty.

3 passive revives per mission does not make up for this imo. 

4 - well it's a melee 3.0 test of the old frame... and well the old one was pretty useless so can't be any worse. 

 

Ultimately after watching the video this rework doesn't make me want to use wukong over other frames after the rework, if anything it makes me even less likely to use it when the only reason I use the current one, albeit rarely (haven't put forma onto it as I know prime is 'soon'), is being nerfed imo.

I'll try it but I'm betting it will end up gathering dust like it does now. 

 

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

You say the damage reduction of around 80%

Realistically it'll be more than that. 

225 base armour, most will probably end up running an Umbral build which when maxed and used with the set provides you with 658 armour, 2158 armour post Defy. That alone is ~88% DR. Throw in an Arcane Guardian and you'll hit 90% DR, or don't because ~88% DR is usable enough anyway.

[Jarriaga]

45 minutes ago, -OP-NerevarCM said:

They said however for a long time that they will increase the base damage of all melee weapons. Probably to reach the same power as a 3x combo multiplier.

Perhaps I was not clear. I was referring to the bonus damage on each individual combo, which is independent from base damage combo counter multiplayer.

Example: Stalking Fan. All 3 combos have damage multipliers on top/separate from your base damage combo multiplier. Pablo made it sound like in this new system, 2 of those combos will no longer deal bonus damage other than what you have in your combo counter/mods. That is a huge nerf to overall damage if you only get one of those, which may not even be the combo with forced procs depending on their choices.

Also: Bringing base damage up to par with combo counter on 3x is still a huge nerf if it doesn't scale beyond that. I often find myself with 4x during Arbitration survival. 

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

That is a good point. The dev workshop post mentions this is being used as something of a test bed for melee 3.0 so that would suggest such changes might be for all melee if successfully accepted.

Indeed, and that's not encouraging. It looks fluid and fun, but fluid and fun is not worth it if I can't kill anything at high level.

 

 

[LSG501]

18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Realistically it'll be more than that. 

225 base armour, most will probably end up running an Umbral build which when maxed and used with the set provides you with 658 armour, 2158 armour post Defy. That alone is ~88% DR. Throw in an Arcane Guardian and you'll hit 90% DR, or don't because ~88% DR is usable enough anyway.

I was using their numbers and reasoning.  To be fair if it's high on things like armour we'll likely use adaptation as well.

Still feel it's a nerf over the old defy but that opinion won't make any difference as it will be going through as is like the last time we had a dev workshop on a rework and they just ignored our feedback and released as described anyway.

[-Bv-Psykiik]

59 minutes ago, -OP-NerevarCM said:

They said however for a long time that they will increase the base damage of all melee weapons. Probably to reach the same power as a 3x combo multiplier.

oh i forgot about that .. last year they reworked all weapons primary and secondary but they skipped melee to until after melee 3 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Realistically it'll be more than that. 

225 base armour, most will probably end up running an Umbral build which when maxed and used with the set provides you with 658 armour, 2158 armour post Defy. That alone is ~88% DR. Throw in an Arcane Guardian and you'll hit 90% DR, or don't because ~88% DR is usable enough anyway.

Umbral fiber on a frame with 225 base armor isn't worth the mod slot.  You're better off using Adaptation.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

opinion won't make any difference as it will be going through as is like the last time we had a dev workshop on a rework and they just ignored our feedback and released as described anyway. 

I wish you were wrong, but I know you're right.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

Umbral fiber on a frame with 225 base armor isn't worth the mod slot.  You're better off using Adaptation.

Good thing it also benefits the set, and both Vitality and Intensify are going to be useful.

[Guest]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Good thing it also benefits the set, and both Vitality and Intensify are going to be useful.

The 7 wukong mains will put an umbral forma on their wukong so they can fit all 3 maxed umbral mods.  The rest of us know better.

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

The rest of us know better.

Nothing better than fun, if this is what people consider fun why are they wrong for doing so?

[MonkeyKV]

23 minutes ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

The 7 wukong mains will put an umbral forma on their wukong

 

19 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Nothing better than fun

primed flow, umbral vit and intensify, primed continuity, primal rage.

3 slots to fit: adaptation, celestial slam, stretch, hunter adrenaline, umbral fiber, depending on fun/QoL/tankyness/energy management as required in my opinion.

I am hoping to be able to go for adaptation, slam and stretch and not have energy problems. The augment seems really fun, and a bit of range will be QoL for defy i suppose. 

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

 

primed flow, umbral vit and intensify, primed continuity, primal rage.

3 slots to fit: adaptation, celestial slam, stretch, hunter adrenaline, umbral fiber, depending on fun/QoL/tankyness/energy management as required in my opinion.

I am hoping to be able to go for adaptation, slam and stretch and not have energy problems. The augment seems really fun, and a bit of range will be QoL for defy i suppose. 

I probably won't even bother with Adaptation, and will instead try and work the cloud usage into normal gameplay so that I'm healing everytime I'm gap closing.

[MonkeyKV]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

I probably won't even bother with Adaptation, and will instead try and work the cloud usage into normal gameplay so that I'm healing everytime I'm gap closing.

Yeah, ill see the survivability once i get my hands on him. Probably wont need it with that much armor.

Did they mention the deluxe? I heard rework this week and didnt pay attention to the skin.

Only bummer to me is the passive, really lackluster.

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

I heard rework this week and didnt pay attention to the skin

I heard something about next week? Might have been talking about the deluxe then.

4 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Only bummer to me is the passive, really lackluster.

I reckon it should be kept, but he should also get an additional one. Inaros for example has two passives. One for reviving, one for healing. There is precedent.

[MonkeyKV]

9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I reckon it should be kept, but he should also get an additional one. Inaros for example has two passives. One for reviving, one for healing. There is precedent

Yeah the death cheat is fine. 3 uses with no way to regain is bad with only a 2s invul time. Don't care for any of the buffs, such low duration. Another passive would be cool, preferably something that you can keep on long missions. I feel like if you are dying with the cloud and armor buff anyways, 3x 2s deatch cheats wont make a difference.

[Julian_Skies]

36 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Yeah the death cheat is fine. 3 uses with no way to regain is bad with only a 2s invul time. Don't care for any of the buffs, such low duration. Another passive would be cool, preferably something that you can keep on long missions. I feel like if you are dying with the cloud and armor buff anyways, 3x 2s deatch cheats wont make a difference.

Eh, 2s is enough to cast the cloud.

You get a window to cast your heal+reposition, and likely segue into keeping up your other survival tools.

[JayShield]

Can someone fix his shoes? He kinda looks like a clown 😞

[SecretDragoon]

I will never play this game again due to the changes to Defy.

Have a nice day ^.^.

[Alejandrokek]

Cloud walker is an actually good Reave. Nice.

[BlueSabre]

Would it be possible to command AIs (Duality, Umbra, WuClone, etc) to attack a specific body parts? We've been able to waypoint individual limbs of the Eidolon for quite some time now, but i've noticed that the AIs are pretty bad at hitting them.

[crazyjr]

On 2019-06-13 at 1:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Calling all Tenno and Wukong lovers!

Released in 2015, Wukong entered the Arsenal as an homage to Chinese folklore. Since his initial inception, we’ve undergone changes to Melee and beyond which have made this Warframe feel a bit left behind. As highlighted in our latest Devstream, exciting developments are in the works for Wukong - and we are not monkeying around. Read on to see how we plan on making all his abilities a bit more active and meaningful:

Statistic Changes

• Health will be increased from 100 to 150 (at max rank increased from 300 to 450).
• Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).
  • Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.
• Energy will be increased from 100 to 120 (at max rank 150 to 180).
• Sprint will be increased from .95 to 1.0.

Celestial Twin

• Replacing Iron Jab, Celestial Twin will allow for Wukong to shed a part of himself to call a supporting clone into action. The clone will attack from range while Wukong uses melee, or will use melee while Wukong uses range.
• Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.
• Wukong’s clone will remain until it runs out of life.

Reasons for changes: Iron Jab is being replaced as it essentially exists as a weaker version of other powers. Wukong’s Ultimate can fulfill and surpass the role of Iron Jab, while fulfilling more of Wukong’s lore and creating a more powerful, synergized kit.

Cloud Walker

• Wukong evaporates into a fast-moving cloud of mist that will temporarily daze and paralyze enemies in his path. While in his cloud of mist, Cloud Walker has the additional mechanic of healing Wukong and his clone.
• His movement can be interrupted by attacking at any time.
• Cloud Walker has a much faster cast time which will no longer hold Wukong in place.
• Wukong will no longer trigger laser traps or doors while using Cloud Walker.
• Energy cost for Cloud Walker has been lowered.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Cloud Walker did not have many use cases as it was a slower and lesser stealth option than that of other frames. These changes make the Ability good for repositioning, more well-rounded - and WAY faster.

Defy

• Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.
• Based on the amount of damage prevented by Defy, Wukong and his clone will receive a temporary armour buff.
• Press ability again to trigger spin early.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Defy’s invulnerability was not very interactive. This change features invulnerability while encouraging more tactical, active, and interesting gameplay techniques. As many of us used Defy to be immortal, it simply was too much of a set-it-and-forget it ability. Changing it to still offer invulnerability is important to us, and strengthening the rest of his Abilities makes up for the loss of complete god mode.

Primal Fury

• Primal Fury will feature a new specialized and streamlined combo for Wukong’s legendary Iron Staff. As a preview of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system, Wukong’s Primal Fury uses new combo routes with simplified inputs providing a safe, limited space to try out coming releases.
• Damage for Wukong and his clone is redistributed for a more powerful feel, with a much higher status chance, larger base range, and some slash.
• Casting no longer holds Wukong in place. With new energy requirements, the cast cost of Primal Fury was lowered but cast drain was increased to be turned off and on as desired.
• Animation has been trimmed.
• The range of Wukong’s Iron Staff is always long, comparable to top range Zaws, and no longer needs to build combo to scale range.

Reasons for changes: When Primal Fury was initially used previously, it felt weak due to short range and after some use felt strong. These changes will enable a stronger, more exciting play while featuring a taste of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system.

Passive

• 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
  1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
  2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
  3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
  4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
  5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds

Augments

• Celestial Twin Augment: Replacing Iron Vault, Wukong will command his clone to perform a wide radius slam, suspending enemies.
• Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.
• Primal Rage: Increased cap from 100 to 150%, increased bonus per kill from 10% to 15%. Drain now scales with duration, so the higher Wukong’s duration, the slower it drains, and when Wukong gets a kill the drain stops for 5 seconds.

Right now, Wukong is one of our less utilized Warframes. We hope that these changes will create a more interesting and engaging playing experience for current Wukong mains while helping this trickster find his way into the hearts of future fans. To celebrate the changes, all players who currently own Wukong will receive 3 Forma!

We’re really excited to share these early stages, but keep in mind that everything listed is still subject to change prior to release! Please feel free to share your constructive feedback and thoughts below on the developments coming to The Monkey King. As Lotus once said, “Everybody's got something to hide, Tenno. Except Wukong.”

*Wukong will be disabled in Conclave after his Revisit has launched until the team can properly balance him for the Conclave gamemode.

Update

Today, Rebecca and Pablo hosted a Wukong Dev Workshop stream where they answered some of your questions and showed gameplay of the changes coming to Wukong. We recommend checking out the full video if you have time, linked below:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GZRwhpCrB4&t=1s

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_adcUHClrDY

We also managed to track down some of your clone FAQs from today’s stream!

1) Will Wukong’s clone trigger alarms?

No.

2) Does the clone have its own combo counter and does it benefit from Blood Rush?

Yes, and yes.

3) Will the clone try to avoid Nullifiers? In the stream, he dominated a Nullifier, will that happen usually?

No. What happened in the steam today was a bit of a unique case. Typically, the clone will attempt to take on a Nullifier, and will take health damage over time while inside a Nullifer’s field.

4) Will a Wukong Specter also create its own clone?

No.

5) What happens to the clone when you go into Operator mode?

The clone will continue functioning while a player is in Operator mode, but will remain anchored to Wukong.

6) Can the clone use alt fire on weapons?

This will depend on the weapon, as some will have AI behaviour defined.

7) Can the clone use heavy weapons?

Nope!

I got a question for you guys, Some sortie missions force you into one weapon (Primary, secondary or mele). How will Wukongs #1 deal with this? Will they both have the same weapon? Or does one go without?

 

Thought about this about 20 minutes ago

[Tzarl]

6 minutes ago, crazyjr said:

I got a question for you guys, Some sortie missions force you into one weapon (Primary, secondary or mele). How will Wukongs #1 deal with this? Will they both have the same weapon? Or does one go without?

 

Thought about this about 20 minutes ago

In the dev workshop they cover this, they mention that both Wukongs will use the same weapon.

[MonkeyKV]

1 hour ago, Julian_Skies said:

Eh, 2s is enough to cast the cloud.

Eh. if you're needing 2s of invulnerability after cloud and armor buffs odds are you will burn all 3 really quickly. Either you can survive fine with the cloud and armor +6 revives or you got to the point that damage is too much and 2s of invulnerabilty wont matter. Nidus passive works because he can build enough charges for another invulnerability while he still has it going. Otherwise he would plateau waaaay earlier. With no way to regain charges this passive eaither will never trigger and wont matter (like current one), or you will burn them all and all revives and whatever buff/loot wont matter.

Just my opinion from my play experience obviously.

[KIREEK]

8 minutes ago, crazyjr said:

I got a question for you guys, Some sortie missions force you into one weapon (Primary, secondary or mele). How will Wukongs #1 deal with this? Will they both have the same weapon? Or does one go without?

 

Thought about this about 20 minutes ago

Unlike the 1st set of sorties where you had to unequip content, right now you can equip everything, so i assume that in amelee only sortie, when you use the 1st ability your specter will act like all the other specters and ignore these conditions and will likely draw the primary weapon.

nvm, just saw the changes

[Trase-Kor]

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We will be going live shortly to review this on our Test Cluster:

@[DE]Pablo@[DE]Rebecca

Thanks for the stream! I was watching live but couldn't log in and had some questions about the rework.

A. If WuClone gets forced into a Nullifier bubble (via knockback, for example) does he get dispelled?

B. Does Wukong get his revive buff when spending revives normally (after his 3 freebies are used up)?

 

Thanks!