Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

[SnuggleBuckets]

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We will be going live shortly to review this on our Test Cluster

So excited for these changes, hype!

[Aoary]

Welcome, Sarah! Hope to see more from you in the future!

I haven't read the suggestions and the other replies to this post and I don't have that much time to do so, so apologies if any of my suggestions seem similar to others.

Passive:

• A way/challenge/requirement or a very long cooldown to again and store 1 passive charge

  • Challenge should not be too easy but not exceedingly hard

• Charge is expended and triggers 1 random effect

Celestial Twin:

• N/A

Cloud Walker:

• N/A or New Ability

  • New Ability: Stance about Wukong’s transform mastery with a fighter/brute/strength/(health regen?)/damage/crowd control stance, agile/flying/latching/attack speed stance and stealth stance. One reference I have is one of the abilities of Smite’s, a MOBA from HiRez, Wukong Character

Defy:

• The attack should knock down enemies and in a larger area to catch “out of range” enemies that just entered the taunt radius

• Clone should not taunt

Primal Fury:

• Iron Staff should be the weapon with the most range and it should it be noticeable in comparison to top range melee weapons at the moment to keep the Wukong infinite extending staff

• Just make it a strong, dope exaulted weapon/ability (MANDATORY)

 

These are some quick points I came up with after taking a quick look at the rework. Let me know what you think and feel free to put some twists on it. I have high hopes for this rework and  it seems it is going in a great direction. I really want Wukong to be a good warframe. I love his fantasy and want him to have a good kit and make him more fun to play and really live the fantasy. Thank you so much DE and to all the others who help and are helping on making a great rework!

[Tromeo]

Sorry @[DE]Pablo but I gonna explode myself with glaive if that sweet immortality passive as a chance of giving me extra kuva 😋

[NEOMEM]

Please add a long cooldown to his passives instead of charges. The rest of the kit looks so good except the passive. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Ok, I like what I saw now. Good job DE.

[Aranlan]

I like most of these changes but some suggestions is to have his 4 length double while using energy channeling. Also Wukong should not need to be in a mob pack to get the full armor and he should have a type of cosmic armor appear onto him kinda like the opposite of how gara break's her glass to get the damage reduction. Also why is it only 85% at top end gara need's 30% power and get 90% reduction and is made of glass, yet in lore wukong fight against the all of the heavens and comes out of top but has less damage reduction than glass. Not to say gara shouldn't have 90% reduction but wukong should have at least similar and need less or the same as gara to get that kind of reduction.

[AntiMomentum]

The passive should be a cooldown rather than 3 times cap per mission. This would be better for endurance runs. Even if the cooldown has to be longer than Oberon's Pheonix Renewal that can be applied to all teammates and some ally NPCs too anyways. It'd be nice to take advantage of the one of the passive buffs every so often in endurance runs. Or that random chance for extra loot in long kuva survival runs.

@[DE]Pablo This shouldn't really hinder his interactivity anyways with enough cooldown.

 

[BETAOPTICS]

17 hours ago, _Kiro said:

At this point I'm just not a fan of how the new passive works... having a limited number of uses per mission seems like just a hard cap while a 90-120 second cooldown period would probably be more fair and wouldn't make that passive useless after (somehow) you died all those times.

I remember a time when we had a couple revives per day in warframe... that didn't end well, it feels to me that they're repeating it here. Hopefully they look at it again, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

I do not follow your reasoning at all here. If you watch the workshop videos they made on Monday, you will see that before entering the revive state, you are granted 3 extra instant revives with additional buffs free of charge in each mission. Not only is that extremely powerful, comes with a powerful buff and it is entirely free. For most plays that is far more than enough to sustain your Warframe, when you can manage with even far less. And if you happen to go down and then die because nobody revived you or you were solo, then you would have normally already died 3 times with any other Warframe (excluding Inaros depending on circumstance), and that is saying to the player a lot at that point, that they either are not powerful enough, are doing something wrong or they have played to their skill level and it is time to start extracting. I genuinely recommend watching those livestreams that were just released, because I suspect you may have gotten the wrong idea based on how it was written about on the forum post like I was confused.

[Mez999]

Looks good to me - I much prefer frames with different options where you have to think a bit more to get the most out of them. 

A question if someone knows (I can’t see the answer but might just being blind) - does the passive kick in during Arbitration missions? It would be particularly useful to have “free” revives in this mission type!

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Mez999 said:

A question if someone knows (I can’t see the answer but might just being blind) - does the passive kick in during Arbitration missions? It would be particularly useful to have “free” revives in this mission type!

I don't see why it wouldn't, mechanically it'll likely work the same way current Defy does, just with less health, less invulnerability and no energy cost. Current Defy does work so...

[MonkeyKV]

19 minutes ago, Mez999 said:

A question if someone knows (I can’t see the answer but might just being blind) - does the passive kick in during Arbitration

It does work. It was mentioned on the stream. Rebecca jokingly said if he was the new arbitration meta and Pablo said well he can die 4 times but it's hard to beat living forever as inaros

[Etzu]

I'm not really a wukong player, but from what I've seen and heard the rework seems to be pretty nice with how warframe is going. The main thing I've heard wukong player complain about is the lack of similarity with the original wukong mythology, and also the cloud walk that was like useless. Personnally I like a lot how the clone thing will work, especially the ability to command him to attack, as we can command venarii.

The idea of having the twin using opposite combat style is a realy good idea in my opinion, it changes from Mirage clones, and Equinox Duality who just duplicate yourself and do what you do. But I already wonder how the twin will do with archgun thing, imagine you don't equip any firearm except the archgun, will he use it ? (Equinox duality clone use it if you have it on)

[DeMonkey]

7 minutes ago, Etzu said:

But I already wonder how the twin will do with archgun thing, imagine you don't equip any firearm except the archgun, will he use it ?

Iirc Pablo said it shouldn't work when Rebecca was going to try.

[Etzu]

à l’instant, DeMonkey a dit :

Iirc Pablo said it shouldn't work when Rebecca was going to try.

Yeah I'm looking the dev workshop stream right now, and indeed it sounds legit because if you wanna have you and the twin playing like say with only melee, you would have to remove your archgun to be able to only have the melee on, would be bad. And would also be not that balance for players not using archgun atmos.

[_Kiro]

3 hours ago, BETAOPTICS said:

I do not follow your reasoning at all here. If you watch the workshop videos they made on Monday, you will see that before entering the revive state, you are granted 3 extra instant revives with additional buffs free of charge in each mission. Not only is that extremely powerful, comes with a powerful buff and it is entirely free. For most plays that is far more than enough to sustain your Warframe, when you can manage with even far less. And if you happen to go down and then die because nobody revived you or you were solo, then you would have normally already died 3 times with any other Warframe (excluding Inaros depending on circumstance), and that is saying to the player a lot at that point, that they either are not powerful enough, are doing something wrong or they have played to their skill level and it is time to start extracting. I genuinely recommend watching those livestreams that were just released, because I suspect you may have gotten the wrong idea based on how it was written about on the forum post like I was confused.

Let me clarify that there's no problem there. If it works, it works. I'm just not a fan of abilities with a limited amount of uses.

The fact it's "enough" is the problem, I don't agree with "enough" and I would prefer a cooldown to prevent it from becoming useless after it's all out. The point is that, even if it's enough for me or you or anybody, it might not be enough for someone else.

A cooldown period would assure the ability always had a use - that's my only reasoning.

Then again, I haven't managed to watch the stream, I'm swamped with work this week... I'll probably look at it on thursday since I should have it free. Thanks for the reminder!

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

I'll probably look at it on thursday

Rework might be out by then anyway.

[BETAOPTICS]

46 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

Let me clarify that there's no problem there. If it works, it works. I'm just not a fan of abilities with a limited amount of uses.

The fact it's "enough" is the problem, I don't agree with "enough" and I would prefer a cooldown to prevent it from becoming useless after it's all out. The point is that, even if it's enough for me or you or anybody, it might not be enough for someone else.

A cooldown period would assure the ability always had a use - that's my only reasoning.

Then again, I haven't managed to watch the stream, I'm swamped with work this week... I'll probably look at it on thursday since I should have it free. Thanks for the reminder!

Even world record chasers have their limits, everyone does. But the question is where does that limit then go right? Having essentially a practical god mode for the first 3 lives, and on top of that 3-6 reviews (if the person even dies rather than being downed and revived back up) is easily plenty to pass content that was designed to be passable by even lesser gear. Ridiculously powerful as the players already are to pass even into the territory of designed stat gates of over-tier content by every player simply possessing gear (not needing special skill or cheese), not alone those world record chasers, having 6-9 lives per mission is plenty especially with his improved kit with quick healing of him and his clone by cloud walking and defy among other things providing an armor buff of 1500 base max etc. Yeah if you go to Exterminate mission on say the Lua moon and manage to die 6-9 times in there, the problem probably isn't Wukong.

[Urlan]

6 hours ago, AntiMomentum said:

The passive should be a cooldown rather than 3 times cap per mission. This would be better for endurance runs. Even if the cooldown has to be longer than Oberon's Pheonix Renewal that can be applied to all teammates and some ally NPCs too anyways. It'd be nice to take advantage of the one of the passive buffs every so often in endurance runs. Or that random chance for extra loot in long kuva survival runs.

@[DE]Pablo This shouldn't really hinder his interactivity anyways with enough cooldown.

 

Something like Phoenix Renewal's 90 seconds cooldown would probably be fine right?

[TBB.]

[rant incoming]

Immortality, extra lifes and Buffs

 

My biggest concern with this rework is, that thematically Wukong is considered immortal and with this rework he basically has lost that.

While Inaros still is quasi immortal, Nidus has to manage his stacks, Wukong needed to pay attention to his energy management and Nullis, which was fine for all three.

Now Wukong feels more like Cat-Frame with his three additional lives during a mission and no way of regenerating those, instead of his actual immortallity.

Pablo claimed that for him the background an theme was important to preserve, but i feel currently Wukong is not the Monke King anymore, just a fancy meele oriented Frame with no real focus on anything, gimmicky at best.

 

If Wukong could retain his immortallity for endless missions, a way to manage or replenish his lives, an Augment helping to keep his immortallity up, so he might be also considered an option for example in endless missions and Arbitrations, it would be an actual improvement, as we currently have a very stale meta for that.

That Wukong is more melee centered and not an AOE nuker or caster Frame, brings basically no buffs for his team and has very little depth and felxibility in his kit (besides his cloud maybe, which still is very clunky) should allow for him to be more selfish and selfcentered in regard of his immortallity. Just look at Nidus, he's considere fine.

I also think that his buffs he gains when he dies the first three times are to transient, as not only do those buffs not really complement his kit and supposed playstyle, they do last just a very short duration in addition of never being reobtainable during the same mission ever.

Wukong does not need a buff to gain bonus loot for a couple seconds! Please, there is no need for such an effect on Wukong, it's wasted potential and does in no way complement his kit or even the situation he is in, which made him loose a life!

His invisibillity buff for example, what does Wukong do in this time?

An Inaros getting this buff might go and during the buff timer replensih his armor buff and nom undisturbed on a foe to recharge, but Wukong? He gains nothing from it. What if he instead for the remainder of the mission can, when he finishes a foe or killed x-amount he regains this invisibility?

Those buffs should be reworked to be very Wukong-centric and complement his playstyle better, lasting longer or even be permanent then for the duration of the mission or at least be replenishable as buffs, even tho his extra lifes might not be regeneratable.

What if for each life lost he gaines a permanent Buff, that re-triggers under certain conditions during the mission, represented by an icon in the topright corner.

 

The Monkey King is clever, agile, strong, immortal, has chupze, is unconventional, is playfull and above all, has so much power at his hands, that even the gods feared him.

Where does Pablo consider these things and reflect them? Sure, there is only so much room for his abilities and his kit to be as close as posiible, but currently i think it's way off from what can be considered a Martial Arts God of enourmos power and benign character and a rich lore behind him too.

tl;dr:

If we claim to consider the theme and lore behind the Frames, we should try to at least implement them as close as possible.

In this current iteration, Wukong is not the immortal Monkey King, but more like a half Cat-Frame.

His immortality needs a treatment like Nidus and be replenishable, his buffs need a rework and be more permanent and centered around his kit and playstyle.

Immortallity on Frames, if managed right, is not a problem ingame as we see with Nidus and Inaros and those are still not considered Meta, but are very casual Frames.

[Maryph]

Le 13/06/2019 à 19:59, Kylo. a dit :

Sounds good, better at least.

The passive RNG is dumb in my opinion though, nobody wants RNG while loading into a mission. 

Will see how it plays out.

Avoiding death is not RNG, RNG is the bonus

The passive seems pretty powerful actually

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Meh, I disagreed with the justification for the passive. Either putting it on an oberon-style wait timer, or linking it with having a living clone that would die in your place, would be better options that would remain useful for the entirety of endless missions, rather than being a finite resource of a passive that disappears after 3 "deaths."

His level of self-revive is found on Nidus and effectively on other frames, that keep them functionally immortal. Wukong has lost that part of his lore because it was set and forget it? Why not simply add some mechanic to sustaining it, rather than removing it entirely? (as pointed out above, clone management to keep it alive to keep you alive, or even just kills with Primal Fury, or a counter that collects damage taken through defy, or regained through cloudwalking, to fulfill a quota to restore one charge of immortality).

There are so many options that keep that aspect of the character in tact, while adding more interactivity... it boggles the mind why they'd just delete it like that (at least for the reasons they gave...  unless they're not the real reasons, and other methods of self-revive will also be disappearing from the game now in future nerfs and this is just the first.)

 

[Urlan]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Meh, I disagreed with the justification for the passive. Either putting it on an oberon-style wait timer, or linking it with having a living clone that would die in your place, would be better options that would remain useful for the entirety of endless missions, rather than being a finite resource of a passive that disappears after 3 "deaths."

His level of self-revive is found on Nidus and effectively on other frames, that keep them functionally immortal. Wukong has lost that part of his lore because it was set and forget it? Why not simply add some mechanic to sustaining it, rather than removing it entirely? (as pointed out above, clone management to keep it alive to keep you alive, or even just kills with Primal Fury, or a counter that collects damage taken through defy, or regained through cloudwalking, to fulfill a quota to restore one charge of immortality).

There are so many options that keep that aspect of the character in tact, while adding more interactivity... it boggles the mind why they'd just delete it like that (at least for the reasons they gave...  unless they're not the real reasons, and other methods of self-revive will also be disappearing from the game now in future nerfs and this is just the first.)

 

I get you, like how Khora can do a Phoenix renewal as long as Venari takes the being killed in her place with that augment, and her kills recharge the cooldown. Good idea!

[crazyjr]

14 hours ago, Tzarl said:

In the dev workshop they cover this, they mention that both Wukongs will use the same weapon.

Did not see that part, thank you

[_Kiro]

To be honest I still am a bit uncertain this rework will even make people, who never had an interest, pick wukong up and play him more than a week.

They took out the first skill which is great, his defy was basically set-and-forget (so according to DE logic it gets nuked) but replaced it with a counter like Nyx's 4, I'm actually pleased with cloudwalker even if slightly since it seemed to be a faster and more mobile movement and his 4 seems less clunky.

I still don't like the passive no matter how anybody tries to justify it, if the point is to avoid death and get buffs, then I'd rather see it gone and be given a melee focused passive like old combo counter one cuz I'm not supposed to die anyway. I just don't see how a finite number can be remotely good when Nidus is a thing.

A recharge mechanic or a cooldown would actually give it some logic. Then ya see a loot dropping buff on that list of random possible bonuses ya get when ya die and I just can't make heads or tails on why I'd ever want that if I survived something that could kill my Wukong...

But at this point I'm ranting for the sake of it. I'm just not seeing this rework as much of an improvement but more of a side grade... but it's cool if people like it I guess.

 

[Yaerion]

Very hyped by this rework. I can't wait to try it.

My only problem is with the passive: the fact that it's limited to 3 times per mission means it will be useless at some point in hard missions and long missions, when we really need it.

I would highly prefer a cooldown for his "levels of Immortality" => similarly to Phoenix Renewal: after undying, we have a period during which we cannot escape death if we take fatal damage.

This wouldn't render the passive null after some point, and would require us to be more careful when we are in the cooldown period (even in "not so hard" missions). I feel this would be way more interesting, gameplay-wise.