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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Would it be possible to command AIs (Duality, Umbra, WuClone, etc) to attack a specific body parts? We've been able to waypoint individual limbs of the Eidolon for quite some time now, but i've noticed that the AIs are pretty bad at hitting them.

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On 2019-06-13 at 1:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Calling all Tenno and Wukong lovers!

Released in 2015, Wukong entered the Arsenal as an homage to Chinese folklore. Since his initial inception, we’ve undergone changes to Melee and beyond which have made this Warframe feel a bit left behind. As highlighted in our latest Devstream, exciting developments are in the works for Wukong - and we are not monkeying around. Read on to see how we plan on making all his abilities a bit more active and meaningful:


Statistic Changes

  • Health will be increased from 100 to 150 (at max rank increased from 300 to 450).
  • Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).
    • Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.
  • Energy will be increased from 100 to 120 (at max rank 150 to 180).
  • Sprint will be increased from .95 to 1.0.


Celestial Twin

  • Replacing Iron Jab, Celestial Twin will allow for Wukong to shed a part of himself to call a supporting clone into action. The clone will attack from range while Wukong uses melee, or will use melee while Wukong uses range.
  • Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.
  • Wukong’s clone will remain until it runs out of life.

Reasons for changes: Iron Jab is being replaced as it essentially exists as a weaker version of other powers. Wukong’s Ultimate can fulfill and surpass the role of Iron Jab, while fulfilling more of Wukong’s lore and creating a more powerful, synergized kit.

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Cloud Walker

  • Wukong evaporates into a fast-moving cloud of mist that will temporarily daze and paralyze enemies in his path. While in his cloud of mist, Cloud Walker has the additional mechanic of healing Wukong and his clone.
  • His movement can be interrupted by attacking at any time.
  • Cloud Walker has a much faster cast time which will no longer hold Wukong in place.
  • Wukong will no longer trigger laser traps or doors while using Cloud Walker.
  • Energy cost for Cloud Walker has been lowered.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Cloud Walker did not have many use cases as it was a slower and lesser stealth option than that of other frames. These changes make the Ability good for repositioning, more well-rounded - and WAY faster.

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Defy

  • Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.
  • Based on the amount of damage prevented by Defy, Wukong and his clone will receive a temporary armour buff.
  • Press ability again to trigger spin early.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Defy’s invulnerability was not very interactive. This change features invulnerability while encouraging more tactical, active, and interesting gameplay techniques. As many of us used Defy to be immortal, it simply was too much of a set-it-and-forget it ability. Changing it to still offer invulnerability is important to us, and strengthening the rest of his Abilities makes up for the loss of complete god mode.

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Primal Fury

  • Primal Fury will feature a new specialized and streamlined combo for Wukong’s legendary Iron Staff. As a preview of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system, Wukong’s Primal Fury uses new combo routes with simplified inputs providing a safe, limited space to try out coming releases.
  • Damage for Wukong and his clone is redistributed for a more powerful feel, with a much higher status chance, larger base range, and some slash.
  • Casting no longer holds Wukong in place. With new energy requirements, the cast cost of Primal Fury was lowered but cast drain was increased to be turned off and on as desired.
  • Animation has been trimmed.
  • The range of Wukong’s Iron Staff is always long, comparable to top range Zaws, and no longer needs to build combo to scale range.

Reasons for changes: When Primal Fury was initially used previously, it felt weak due to short range and after some use felt strong. These changes will enable a stronger, more exciting play while featuring a taste of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system.

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Passive

  • 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
    1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
    2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
    3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
    4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
    5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds


Augments

  • Celestial Twin Augment: Replacing Iron Vault, Wukong will command his clone to perform a wide radius slam, suspending enemies.
  • Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.
  • Primal Rage: Increased cap from 100 to 150%, increased bonus per kill from 10% to 15%. Drain now scales with duration, so the higher Wukong’s duration, the slower it drains, and when Wukong gets a kill the drain stops for 5 seconds.


Right now, Wukong is one of our less utilized Warframes. We hope that these changes will create a more interesting and engaging playing experience for current Wukong mains while helping this trickster find his way into the hearts of future fans. To celebrate the changes, all players who currently own Wukong will receive 3 Forma!

We’re really excited to share these early stages, but keep in mind that everything listed is still subject to change prior to release! Please feel free to share your constructive feedback and thoughts below on the developments coming to The Monkey King. As Lotus once said, “Everybody's got something to hide, Tenno. Except Wukong.”

*Wukong will be disabled in Conclave after his Revisit has launched until the team can properly balance him for the Conclave gamemode.

Update

Today, Rebecca and Pablo hosted a Wukong Dev Workshop stream where they answered some of your questions and showed gameplay of the changes coming to Wukong. We recommend checking out the full video if you have time, linked below:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GZRwhpCrB4&t=1s

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_adcUHClrDY

We also managed to track down some of your clone FAQs from today’s stream!

1) Will Wukong’s clone trigger alarms?

No.

2) Does the clone have its own combo counter and does it benefit from Blood Rush?

Yes, and yes.

3) Will the clone try to avoid Nullifiers? In the stream, he dominated a Nullifier, will that happen usually?

No. What happened in the steam today was a bit of a unique case. Typically, the clone will attempt to take on a Nullifier, and will take health damage over time while inside a Nullifer’s field.

4) Will a Wukong Specter also create its own clone?

No.

5) What happens to the clone when you go into Operator mode?

The clone will continue functioning while a player is in Operator mode, but will remain anchored to Wukong.

6) Can the clone use alt fire on weapons?

This will depend on the weapon, as some will have AI behaviour defined.

7) Can the clone use heavy weapons?

Nope!

I got a question for you guys, Some sortie missions force you into one weapon (Primary, secondary or mele). How will Wukongs #1 deal with this? Will they both have the same weapon? Or does one go without?

 

Thought about this about 20 minutes ago

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6 minutes ago, crazyjr said:

I got a question for you guys, Some sortie missions force you into one weapon (Primary, secondary or mele). How will Wukongs #1 deal with this? Will they both have the same weapon? Or does one go without?

 

Thought about this about 20 minutes ago

In the dev workshop they cover this, they mention that both Wukongs will use the same weapon.

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1 hour ago, Julian_Skies said:

Eh, 2s is enough to cast the cloud.

Eh. if you're needing 2s of invulnerability after cloud and armor buffs odds are you will burn all 3 really quickly. Either you can survive fine with the cloud and armor +6 revives or you got to the point that damage is too much and 2s of invulnerabilty wont matter. Nidus passive works because he can build enough charges for another invulnerability while he still has it going. Otherwise he would plateau waaaay earlier. With no way to regain charges this passive eaither will never trigger and wont matter (like current one), or you will burn them all and all revives and whatever buff/loot wont matter.

Just my opinion from my play experience obviously.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, crazyjr said:

I got a question for you guys, Some sortie missions force you into one weapon (Primary, secondary or mele). How will Wukongs #1 deal with this? Will they both have the same weapon? Or does one go without?

 

Thought about this about 20 minutes ago

Unlike the 1st set of sorties where you had to unequip content, right now you can equip everything, so i assume that in amelee only sortie, when you use the 1st ability your specter will act like all the other specters and ignore these conditions and will likely draw the primary weapon.

nvm, just saw the changes

Edited by KIREEK

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We will be going live shortly to review this on our Test Cluster:

@[DE]Pablo@[DE]Rebecca

Thanks for the stream! I was watching live but couldn't log in and had some questions about the rework.

A. If WuClone gets forced into a Nullifier bubble (via knockback, for example) does he get dispelled?

B. Does Wukong get his revive buff when spending revives normally (after his 3 freebies are used up)?

 

Thanks!

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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We will be going live shortly to review this on our Test Cluster

So excited for these changes, hype!

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Posted (edited)

Welcome, Sarah! Hope to see more from you in the future!

I haven't read the suggestions and the other replies to this post and I don't have that much time to do so, so apologies if any of my suggestions seem similar to others.

Passive:

  • A way/challenge/requirement or a very long cooldown to again and store 1 passive charge

    • Challenge should not be too easy but not exceedingly hard

  • Charge is expended and triggers 1 random effect

Celestial Twin:

  • N/A

Cloud Walker:

  • N/A or New Ability
    • New Ability: Stance about Wukong’s transform mastery with a fighter/brute/strength/(health regen?)/damage/crowd control stance, agile/flying/latching/attack speed stance and stealth stance. One reference I have is one of the abilities of Smite’s, a MOBA from HiRez, Wukong Character

Defy:

  • The attack should knock down enemies and in a larger area to catch “out of range” enemies that just entered the taunt radius

  • Clone should not taunt

Primal Fury:

  • Iron Staff should be the weapon with the most range and it should it be noticeable in comparison to top range melee weapons at the moment to keep the Wukong infinite extending staff

  • Just make it a strong, dope exaulted weapon/ability (MANDATORY)

 

These are some quick points I came up with after taking a quick look at the rework. Let me know what you think and feel free to put some twists on it. I have high hopes for this rework and  it seems it is going in a great direction. I really want Wukong to be a good warframe. I love his fantasy and want him to have a good kit and make him more fun to play and really live the fantasy. Thank you so much DE and to all the others who help and are helping on making a great rework!

Edited by Aoary
Words missing. Oops

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Sorry @[DE]Pablo but I gonna explode myself with glaive if that sweet immortality passive as a chance of giving me extra kuva 😋

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Please add a long cooldown to his passives instead of charges. The rest of the kit looks so good except the passive. 

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I like most of these changes but some suggestions is to have his 4 length double while using energy channeling. Also Wukong should not need to be in a mob pack to get the full armor and he should have a type of cosmic armor appear onto him kinda like the opposite of how gara break's her glass to get the damage reduction. Also why is it only 85% at top end gara need's 30% power and get 90% reduction and is made of glass, yet in lore wukong fight against the all of the heavens and comes out of top but has less damage reduction than glass. Not to say gara shouldn't have 90% reduction but wukong should have at least similar and need less or the same as gara to get that kind of reduction.

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Posted (edited)

The passive should be a cooldown rather than 3 times cap per mission. This would be better for endurance runs. Even if the cooldown has to be longer than Oberon's Pheonix Renewal that can be applied to all teammates and some ally NPCs too anyways. It'd be nice to take advantage of the one of the passive buffs every so often in endurance runs. Or that random chance for extra loot in long kuva survival runs.

@[DE]Pablo This shouldn't really hinder his interactivity anyways with enough cooldown.

 

Edited by AntiMomentum
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17 hours ago, _Kiro said:

At this point I'm just not a fan of how the new passive works... having a limited number of uses per mission seems like just a hard cap while a 90-120 second cooldown period would probably be more fair and wouldn't make that passive useless after (somehow) you died all those times.

I remember a time when we had a couple revives per day in warframe... that didn't end well, it feels to me that they're repeating it here. Hopefully they look at it again, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

I do not follow your reasoning at all here. If you watch the workshop videos they made on Monday, you will see that before entering the revive state, you are granted 3 extra instant revives with additional buffs free of charge in each mission. Not only is that extremely powerful, comes with a powerful buff and it is entirely free. For most plays that is far more than enough to sustain your Warframe, when you can manage with even far less. And if you happen to go down and then die because nobody revived you or you were solo, then you would have normally already died 3 times with any other Warframe (excluding Inaros depending on circumstance), and that is saying to the player a lot at that point, that they either are not powerful enough, are doing something wrong or they have played to their skill level and it is time to start extracting. I genuinely recommend watching those livestreams that were just released, because I suspect you may have gotten the wrong idea based on how it was written about on the forum post like I was confused.

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Looks good to me - I much prefer frames with different options where you have to think a bit more to get the most out of them. 

A question if someone knows (I can’t see the answer but might just being blind) - does the passive kick in during Arbitration missions? It would be particularly useful to have “free” revives in this mission type!

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Just now, Mez999 said:

A question if someone knows (I can’t see the answer but might just being blind) - does the passive kick in during Arbitration missions? It would be particularly useful to have “free” revives in this mission type!

I don't see why it wouldn't, mechanically it'll likely work the same way current Defy does, just with less health, less invulnerability and no energy cost. Current Defy does work so...

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19 minutes ago, Mez999 said:

A question if someone knows (I can’t see the answer but might just being blind) - does the passive kick in during Arbitration

It does work. It was mentioned on the stream. Rebecca jokingly said if he was the new arbitration meta and Pablo said well he can die 4 times but it's hard to beat living forever as inaros

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I'm not really a wukong player, but from what I've seen and heard the rework seems to be pretty nice with how warframe is going. The main thing I've heard wukong player complain about is the lack of similarity with the original wukong mythology, and also the cloud walk that was like useless. Personnally I like a lot how the clone thing will work, especially the ability to command him to attack, as we can command venarii.

The idea of having the twin using opposite combat style is a realy good idea in my opinion, it changes from Mirage clones, and Equinox Duality who just duplicate yourself and do what you do. But I already wonder how the twin will do with archgun thing, imagine you don't equip any firearm except the archgun, will he use it ? (Equinox duality clone use it if you have it on)

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7 minutes ago, Etzu said:

But I already wonder how the twin will do with archgun thing, imagine you don't equip any firearm except the archgun, will he use it ?

Iirc Pablo said it shouldn't work when Rebecca was going to try.

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à l’instant, DeMonkey a dit :

Iirc Pablo said it shouldn't work when Rebecca was going to try.

Yeah I'm looking the dev workshop stream right now, and indeed it sounds legit because if you wanna have you and the twin playing like say with only melee, you would have to remove your archgun to be able to only have the melee on, would be bad. And would also be not that balance for players not using archgun atmos.

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3 hours ago, BETAOPTICS said:

I do not follow your reasoning at all here. If you watch the workshop videos they made on Monday, you will see that before entering the revive state, you are granted 3 extra instant revives with additional buffs free of charge in each mission. Not only is that extremely powerful, comes with a powerful buff and it is entirely free. For most plays that is far more than enough to sustain your Warframe, when you can manage with even far less. And if you happen to go down and then die because nobody revived you or you were solo, then you would have normally already died 3 times with any other Warframe (excluding Inaros depending on circumstance), and that is saying to the player a lot at that point, that they either are not powerful enough, are doing something wrong or they have played to their skill level and it is time to start extracting. I genuinely recommend watching those livestreams that were just released, because I suspect you may have gotten the wrong idea based on how it was written about on the forum post like I was confused.

Let me clarify that there's no problem there. If it works, it works. I'm just not a fan of abilities with a limited amount of uses.

The fact it's "enough" is the problem, I don't agree with "enough" and I would prefer a cooldown to prevent it from becoming useless after it's all out. The point is that, even if it's enough for me or you or anybody, it might not be enough for someone else.

A cooldown period would assure the ability always had a use - that's my only reasoning.

Then again, I haven't managed to watch the stream, I'm swamped with work this week... I'll probably look at it on thursday since I should have it free. Thanks for the reminder!

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6 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

I'll probably look at it on thursday

Rework might be out by then anyway.

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46 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

Let me clarify that there's no problem there. If it works, it works. I'm just not a fan of abilities with a limited amount of uses.

The fact it's "enough" is the problem, I don't agree with "enough" and I would prefer a cooldown to prevent it from becoming useless after it's all out. The point is that, even if it's enough for me or you or anybody, it might not be enough for someone else.

A cooldown period would assure the ability always had a use - that's my only reasoning.

Then again, I haven't managed to watch the stream, I'm swamped with work this week... I'll probably look at it on thursday since I should have it free. Thanks for the reminder!

Even world record chasers have their limits, everyone does. But the question is where does that limit then go right? Having essentially a practical god mode for the first 3 lives, and on top of that 3-6 reviews (if the person even dies rather than being downed and revived back up) is easily plenty to pass content that was designed to be passable by even lesser gear. Ridiculously powerful as the players already are to pass even into the territory of designed stat gates of over-tier content by every player simply possessing gear (not needing special skill or cheese), not alone those world record chasers, having 6-9 lives per mission is plenty especially with his improved kit with quick healing of him and his clone by cloud walking and defy among other things providing an armor buff of 1500 base max etc. Yeah if you go to Exterminate mission on say the Lua moon and manage to die 6-9 times in there, the problem probably isn't Wukong.

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6 hours ago, AntiMomentum said:

The passive should be a cooldown rather than 3 times cap per mission. This would be better for endurance runs. Even if the cooldown has to be longer than Oberon's Pheonix Renewal that can be applied to all teammates and some ally NPCs too anyways. It'd be nice to take advantage of the one of the passive buffs every so often in endurance runs. Or that random chance for extra loot in long kuva survival runs.

@[DE]Pablo This shouldn't really hinder his interactivity anyways with enough cooldown.

 

Something like Phoenix Renewal's 90 seconds cooldown would probably be fine right?

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[rant incoming]

Immortality, extra lifes and Buffs

 

My biggest concern with this rework is, that thematically Wukong is considered immortal and with this rework he basically has lost that.

While Inaros still is quasi immortal, Nidus has to manage his stacks, Wukong needed to pay attention to his energy management and Nullis, which was fine for all three.

Now Wukong feels more like Cat-Frame with his three additional lives during a mission and no way of regenerating those, instead of his actual immortallity.

Pablo claimed that for him the background an theme was important to preserve, but i feel currently Wukong is not the Monke King anymore, just a fancy meele oriented Frame with no real focus on anything, gimmicky at best.

 

If Wukong could retain his immortallity for endless missions, a way to manage or replenish his lives, an Augment helping to keep his immortallity up, so he might be also considered an option for example in endless missions and Arbitrations, it would be an actual improvement, as we currently have a very stale meta for that.

That Wukong is more melee centered and not an AOE nuker or caster Frame, brings basically no buffs for his team and has very little depth and felxibility in his kit (besides his cloud maybe, which still is very clunky) should allow for him to be more selfish and selfcentered in regard of his immortallity. Just look at Nidus, he's considere fine.

I also think that his buffs he gains when he dies the first three times are to transient, as not only do those buffs not really complement his kit and supposed playstyle, they do last just a very short duration in addition of never being reobtainable during the same mission ever.

Wukong does not need a buff to gain bonus loot for a couple seconds! Please, there is no need for such an effect on Wukong, it's wasted potential and does in no way complement his kit or even the situation he is in, which made him loose a life!

His invisibillity buff for example, what does Wukong do in this time?

An Inaros getting this buff might go and during the buff timer replensih his armor buff and nom undisturbed on a foe to recharge, but Wukong? He gains nothing from it. What if he instead for the remainder of the mission can, when he finishes a foe or killed x-amount he regains this invisibility?

Those buffs should be reworked to be very Wukong-centric and complement his playstyle better, lasting longer or even be permanent then for the duration of the mission or at least be replenishable as buffs, even tho his extra lifes might not be regeneratable.

What if for each life lost he gaines a permanent Buff, that re-triggers under certain conditions during the mission, represented by an icon in the topright corner.

 

The Monkey King is clever, agile, strong, immortal, has chupze, is unconventional, is playfull and above all, has so much power at his hands, that even the gods feared him.

Where does Pablo consider these things and reflect them? Sure, there is only so much room for his abilities and his kit to be as close as posiible, but currently i think it's way off from what can be considered a Martial Arts God of enourmos power and benign character and a rich lore behind him too.

tl;dr:

If we claim to consider the theme and lore behind the Frames, we should try to at least implement them as close as possible.

In this current iteration, Wukong is not the immortal Monkey King, but more like a half Cat-Frame.

His immortality needs a treatment like Nidus and be replenishable, his buffs need a rework and be more permanent and centered around his kit and playstyle.

Immortallity on Frames, if managed right, is not a problem ingame as we see with Nidus and Inaros and those are still not considered Meta, but are very casual Frames.

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