Wukong Revisit

[seprent]

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That is a decent benefit, as long as he doesn't teleport back.

Hopefully we get some changes to the leash and his usage of melee weapons to make this slightly more beneficial.

what if we used the existing target a enemy mechanic it has if your cursor within range of the cross air fails to find a enemy (imagine a circle on the screen maybe x2 the size of the gun aim cross air) it would ignore enemies and run back to you or tp back next to you depending on distance 

idk just spit-balling with what we have so far perhaps the ability to mark yourself the clone will follow you religiously until your attacked then that enemy is marked after that enemy is dead your remarked and it returns to guarding you perhaps something like that would be better as an augment

celestial guardian the clone focus on defending the first attack to strike you does nothing and that enemy is marked as if you looked at them and pressed 1 with a cool down of course 

well now im rambling imma stop before i turn off the rails harder then my current DND campaign 

[DeMonkey]

37 minutes ago, seprent said:

well now im rambling imma stop

You're strange and I love you for it. 

[o_pogode]

Such a great rework. Wukong now became one of my favs - useful and fun to play.

Thanks DE for an awesome job 👍

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

 That's a stronger argument than yours. You can say "It won't make it better for me" but it won't make it worse for you either. Fact.

No, it isn't. Because you're not the one doing the work. Your entire argument to get somebody else to do something is 'go on, it won't hurt', which is not a reason.

It the whole point I'm making, you have a non-starter argument, and you don't give enough reason for them to do anything about it.

You don't like it being so short? And? So what?

You moistened biscuit, that's not a reason to change it.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Yea, I know. Greedy Mag still was nerfed because it was efffective. Simple as that.

Your failure to recognise 'exploitative' and continue to argue 'effective' is more and more evidence that you don't understand any of why DE make changes or don't make changes. Keep digging yourself into that hole, it's only helping me.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I mentioned quite a lot. You just refuse to acknowledge them, predictably.

Please point out where you mentioned any Warframes in the comment I was quoting you from. You said 'there are many warframes that do not have as heavy drawbacks' and mentioned precisely no Warframes to back up your case, and then when I call you out on it, instead of mentioning any Warframes you insist you mentioned them.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You don't have as much control and strategic freedom with a five second duration, as you would do with a forty second or a draining ability. That's just a fact. It's more useful with a longer duration.

At this speed you have exactly as much control in five seconds as you have in 40, control over time is equal because of the speed. Nothing says you would have any more or less control over that movement just because you had longer to do it in. If you're failing to control an ability for four seconds, you would fail to control it for 40 and simply flail around more, ending up where you want by dint of repetition rather than skill.

Meanwhile, myself and others are fine with the speed, and navigate with fluid accuracy in those few seconds and put it to maximum use. Again, your inability to control the ability is not a fault of the duration, it's a fault of you.

Besides, at that speed, literally no Warframe has that amount of mobility combined with total invulnerability to enemies. Two frames have the invulnerability, neither have the mobility, and while one has total invulnerability they can't interact, while the other can interact but has high Drain and a mechanic that damages or kills you if you run out of energy near an enemy.

Suggesting that kind of increase, again, shows you have no idea how these abilities are balanced, why DE make changes or don't make changes.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Maybe you should leave Cloud Walker to do all that? Again, you don't have to stay in for the long duration. Don't know why that revelation hasn't crossed your mind.

Maybe you should learn to let Cloud Walker end when it does? You don't need a longer duration to fully utilise this ability, it's incredibly mobile already and if you learned to control it you would also realise that. I don't know why that revelation hasn't crossed your mind. 

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

That's your opinion.

It's statistical fact. Drains are mathematically proven to be functional nerfs. DE have even said that they put them on frames instead because 'Duration would make the ability too powerful'.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You can continue to act like my argument has no merit (while directly ignoring a lot of my points and facts present in the game) but the fact is, your argument just does not hold up. If we were both standing in front of DE presenting our cases for Wukong, you would not win. If we were both standing in front of DE presenting our cases for Wukong, you would not win. A lot of the times arguments like yours are confidently written, but when verbally challenged they fall apart prety quickly. There is no doubt in my mind if we were having this conversation face-to-face, you would have backed out long ago.

My entire point, you soggy paper towel, is that we're at a stalemate. Nothing changes because your 'arguments' don't hold up and my argument is precisely that your arguments don't hold up. Repeating your opinion about the ability having too short of a time and repeating 'you could do better with more' is not an argument, it's an opinion that you're repeating as if it were.

If this were a face-to-face debate, you wouldn't have made it past the opening statements, it would have been laughed out, because when your opinion is that the creators have done something wrong and you want it changed because 'what would it hurt?', the correct counter is 'that isn't a reason it needs to be changed'.

I'm not arguing that I've got some better idea, I'm not arguing that the short duration is perfect, I'm arguing that you're not right. Which is an easy point to make because you haven't given any evidence to show that you are.

The ability has been made this way because of a reason you don't agree with. You don't think it should have been the healing, you think it should have just been the speed increase. That's a fine opinion. But it is the healing and it also has the speed increase and so it has a short duration to balance it. Even if DE's only step was to increase the speed and decrease the duration because of it, then it's still based on their own internal balance of how much mobility the frame should have and your opinions on that topic aren't enough to counter that.

You don't have a debatable point, because all you're doing on your side of the debate is repeating 'it wouldn't hurt' and 'but it would be better', both entirely subjective opinions.

I'm not making a case for Wukong, I'm saying you're not making a case for Wukong.

If you haven't got that, from all of this, then you're even worse at this whole debate thing than I thought. And that's a low bar to begin with.

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Your entire argument to get somebody else to do something is 'go on, it won't hurt', which is not a reason.

Wrong again. My reason(s) are that it would be more useful overall if it had a longer duration and there is simply no reason to not make an ability more useful which doesn't mean it'll be overpowered. That's a simple fact. It won't be useful to you, but you do not encompass the whole community.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Your failure to recognise 'exploitative' and continue to argue 'effective' is more and more evidence that you don't understand any of why DE make changes or don't make changes. Keep digging yourself into that hole, it's only helping me.

Helping you do what exactly? You haven't provided any sort of convincing arguement how a longer duration Could Walker would be "exploitative". All you've said is how it won't be useful to you. I understand why DE makes changes. That doesn't mean I agree with some of them. Like the Hema requirements for example.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Please point out where you mentioned any Warframes in the comment I was quoting you from.

Maybe you should read back a little more to where I mentioned Limbo, Inaros, Oberon and further on where I aded Rhino, Nezha and Ivara to the list. Like I said; you're pretending they don't exist.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

At this speed you have exactly as much control in five seconds as you have in 40

No you do not. You are just talking nonsense as usual. Having Cloud Walker for forty seconds offers you much more control and time to plan. Trying to pretend otherwise is a lost cause, to put it in the most polite way possible.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If you're failing to control an ability for four seconds, you would fail to control it for 40 and simply flail around more, ending up where you want by dint of repetition rather than skill.

So now you're dictating to me how I would play the game, even though I have never done that to you. Another example of how pretentious and self-righteous your arguement is. Controlling the ability for forty seconds allows for more time to plan, to place yourself in strategic locations and to just generally have more fun which you seem to think is not a good enough reason to do something in a video game.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Meanwhile, myself and others are fine with the speed, and navigate with fluid accuracy in those few seconds and put it to maximum use.

My friend, I do not care how well you do, because you are not me. All I know is that the proposed changes would not affect how you play in the slightest and that is the bottom line here. You still think that saying "I don't need it" is somehow a meaningful counter-arguement when it isn't. You just keep repeating yourself and subsequently lowering your credibility even further with each post. It's not even funny, it's frankly selfish and petty.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Warframe has that amount of mobility combined with total invulnerability to enemies.

Again, how does this mean the duration cannot be buffed exactly? The fact you are campaigning so hard for a movement ability that doesn't allow to do anything but move, to not be as fun or useful as it could be if it had a longer duration is just sad honestly. You can pretend that Cloud Walker is OP because it allows you to move quickly if you wish, but that arguement is pretty laughable when you look at some other frames in the game. Sure Limbo might not have the maneuverability offered by CW, but he has infinite invulerability which has no timer and can interact with certain objects in the world even when invulnerable. If your definition of OP is to be believed, Limbo should be at the very top of your hit list right now.

It honestly makes me sad because this is the kind of justification I saw for the Vacuum rework. People were acting like Vacuum would be too OP if it had its full range once again, for some reason. It seems some are just programmed to oppose any argument in favour of a buff even when it would literally do no harm to anyone in the game at all and would only make the buffed ability/item more useful overall. You are following the exact same line of logic; pretending that Cloud Walker is OP when all it does is allow you another method of maneuverability. It doesn't let you attack nor be attacked while in the ability. It's sole purpose is transport. The healing justification also does not hold up as it's not as if you can attack while in Cloud Walker and like I said, there are plenty of frames out there and can heal forever while attacking, virtually taking no damage at all.

Cloud Walker being buffed would make a lot more useful in terms of gameplay overall. Perhaps not to people like you who can go five minutes with shooting something and like the schizophrenic spamming that gameplay promotes, but to others who perhaps like to take longer with their planning or even want to use the augment to act as a mobile cloaking station for late game missions, it would incredibly more useful. These are all valid reasons, which you choose to ignore or pretend like they are simply just "opinions" when they are not.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

while the other can interact but has high Drain and a mechanic that damages or kills you if you run out of energy near an enemy.

Still far more effective than Wukong, who is vulnerable the minute he drops out of his Cloud. Valkyr can stay in her invulnerability for a very long time if she is constantly taking damage, same with Oberon. And your Limbo comment is a lie since he can interact with certain objects when in the Rift, like Friendship doors and Life support capsules for example. So both are more useful than Wukong.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Suggesting that kind of increase, again, shows you have no idea how these abilities are balanced, why DE make changes or don't make changes.

Again, you talk like making Cloud Walker longer would somehow unbalance the game without explaining exactly why. Please explain with evidence, how exactly a forty second or even a ten second base duration Cloud Walker would break the game in a way that no other frame already has done mechanics wise. Because once again, you can't do anything while Cloud Walker is active and there are still far superior frames out there that still put Wukong to shame.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Maybe you should learn to let Cloud Walker end when it does? You don't need a longer duration to fully utilise this ability, it's incredibly mobile already and if you learned to control it you would also realise that. I don't know why that revelation hasn't crossed your mind. 

Firstly your first comment is incredibly ironic considering you were saying earlier that a longer duration somehow means you are compelled to stay in it for the full length, when you did not need to at all. (Great part of your arguement by the way, since that was the thinnest excuse I have seen thus far in all the threads/discussions I've been in.)

Secondly, why are you again telling me how to play the game? I'm not telling you how to do that. I'm not saying "you need to use the full duration" because I'm not a pretentious, self-righteous person who thinks he can dictate how others play. I support your playstyle and am glad you enjoy it. If my changes heavily encroached upon your playstyle and were genuinely overpowered then fair enough, but the thing is; they don't. My changes would not affect your gameplay at all, as I have said for the fifth time by now. You are trying to impose your playstyle onto me, which is never going to happen. I do not like your kind of playstyle, but I'm not going to begrudge you for liking it. I prefer using abilities like that for longer because that is how I play. And also because its just fun to fly around wide open areas in video games.

I'm not going to say how you play is wrong because it's not how I play. A pity you will not afford me the same courtesy.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Drains are mathematically proven to be functional nerfs.

Are they indeed. Please show the mathematics around that then. Because drains, as far as I am concerned, work best with this game in a lot of ways. Tank drain abilities have the potential to be infinite. There is a reason people are asking for Chroma's rework to change his Vex Armour into a drain ability. Some people like them and they would be more useful on certain frames than a timer.

Bear in mind also that a lot of things look good/bad on paper. But its the result you get from implementing them into the world that matters.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

My entire point, you soggy paper towel

Really. Is that what we've devolved into now; name calling. That helps your arguement a lot. So much for me giving you some semblance of respect.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Nothing changes because your 'arguments' don't hold up and my argument is precisely that your arguments don't hold up.

In your opinion, it doesn't hold up. You have provided no real evidence or reasons as to why it does not. Throughout this discussion you have done nothing but pretend like you haven't read my posts, straight up ignore some of them and act like somehow buffing Cloud Walkers duration would make it overpowered and isn't necessary because you don't see a need for it. Your entire arguement is based on nothing but how you think it doesn't need a buff. That is not a proper counter-arguement. I have provided evidence for both why it would be made more useful and fun for gameplay, would allow for more build/play variety and how it would not break the game like you adamantly keep pretending it will somehow, because other frames have far more powerful versions of invulnerability with very litte drawbacks. And the main bottom line is that the duration buff would not affect the way you, or others who share your playstyle at all.

If we were to have this conversation face to face, you would not have held up because of the logic you have been using in your posts. You would laugh and say "there isn't a reason it needs to be changed" and I would reply with the exact same responses and evidence as to why it could and should be changed. You would continiously repeating how you and others like you do not want or need the buff, as if it somehow is a valid arguement towards not getting the buff as opposed to say a genuine argument like the World on Fire sufferers provided. I would ask how it would be OP and how it would affect you negatively. You would admit it would not affect you negatively, or maybe you wouldn't and claim you'd feel compelled to stay in CW for its full duration which is just as laughable as it was when you first said it and then continue to be vague about how exactly CW would break the game anymore than another frame already has done (better). Then you would just resort to childish name-calling as you have done here.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm not arguing that I've got some better idea, I'm not arguing that the short duration is perfect, I'm arguing that you're not right. Which is an easy point to make because you haven't given any evidence to show that you are.

Firstly you are arging the short duration is perfect as you have repeatedly stated how you think it's fine and that I apparantly do not need a longer duration to enjoy it (i.e; telling me to play the game). You did so in this very comment.

I am right in the fact that there is no reason not to buff the ability and that it would make it more useful in overall gameplay and variety. Making an ability that keeps you alive last longer is useful. There are already a lot of frames that do that, but far better and with far less drawbacks, subsequently outclassing Wukong in that regard.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But it is the healing and it also has the speed increase and so it has a short duration to balance it.

And again, I have yet to see a real reason as to why the heal justifies the nerf anyway. You already can't do anything in Cloud Walker. You cant attack nor be attacked or interact with anything and you're already healed within the first few seconds of using it if you have decent power strength. So how exactly would making the duration last longer, unbalance the ability? It still has a limit, unlike some others we've already discussed and there are plenty of other ways to get your health back anyway, which means those frames are more overpowered than Wukong by your logic.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You don't have a debatable point, because all you're doing on your side of the debate is repeating 'it wouldn't hurt' and 'but it would be better', both entirely subjective opinions.

Making an ability like Cloud Walker longer would make it more useful. That is not a subjective opinion. Making any sort of ability like that last longer is better, because then that opens up more possibilities for vaired gameplay and like I said it would automatically make the augment better alongside it. You may not find it useful, since you prefer hopping in and out it regularly and that is perfectly fine, doesn't mean that ability hasn't had it's usefulness as whole increased because it has. A longer duration opens up more possibilities for varied gameplay. That is a fact. Right now, everyone is forced to use your style of hopping in and out, which is limiting the potential of the ability. The changes would leave your playstyle intact while broadening the possiblities for alternatives. It's basically a win-win for everyone. The definition of a positive change overall.

It is honestly a shame some community members feel the need to fight so vehemently against something that would not affect them at all and is based purely on their feelings as opposed to real arguements like overall usefulness, improving the ability/gameplay or encroaching on other peoples gameplay experience.

At the end of the day, the bottom line is that a change in duration would make the ability as whole more useful and allow for greater variety in gameplay and builds. Everyone is free to continue playing as they wish, whether you like fast paced hopping and out gameplay, slower paced more strategic gameplay or perhaps a Enveloping Cloud build to act as a fast moving, long duration cloaking device for your team, or just having fun soaring across the open maps.

This is my last reply to you, as I feel like outright insults and telling other people to adapt to your own playstyle are where cordial discussions end in Warframe. I respect your right to play the way you like. It's a pity you do not do the same, even though the proposed change to duration would not encroach upon you at all and instead tell me I should play the game your way.

Thanks for your time, hope you have a nice day.

Edited June 26, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

That is a decent benefit, as long as he doesn't teleport back.

Hopefully we get some changes to the leash and his usage of melee weapons to make this slightly more beneficial.

Yes the leash feels shorter than I thought it would. And I agree. I was disappointed to find that he doesn't really attempt melee combos or use extra mechanics on weapons. 

I could understand him not freely switching between toggle modes (I'd even settle for him being in an alt mode because you spawned him in an alt mode.) but I don't see what prevents him from using charge mechanics. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

 

Helping you do what exactly? You haven't provided any sort of convincing arguement how a longer duration Could Walker would be "exploitative". All you've said is how it won't be useful to you. I understand why DE makes changes. That doesn't mean I agree with some of them. Like the Hema requirements for example.

No you do not. You are just talking nonsense as usual. Having Cloud Walker for forty seconds offers you much more control and time to plan. Trying to pretend otherwise is a lost cause, to put it in the most polite way possible.

Cloud walker makes your clone invincible and heals him.  It also status cleanses you and makes you untargetable.  Also leaving it opens enemies to finishers that are in your aoe.  In the comparison of limbo and valkyr they both have limitations.  Valkyr can't be hurt.  But she pays a heafty price of energy and can potentially die from it's usage.  Not to mention the short range of her ability.  Limbo is incapable of interacting with most of the environment and enemies in general unless they're on the same plane as him.  And by doing so he's potentially in danger.  either from nullies or other off switches and whenever he attempts to cast/change planes.  Wukong currently as is with cloud walker doesn't have the restriction of either.  No massive drain to force him outside the cloud.  And he can't be hurt and neither can his clone.  Meaning his clone can go around killing everything risk free.  He also is not in the same level of risk for leaving cloud walker like valkyr is for her 4 or limbo for leaving the rift.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Again, how does this mean the duration cannot be buffed exactly? The fact you are campaigning so hard for a movement ability that doesn't allow to do anything but move, to not be as fun or useful as it could be if it had a longer duration is just sad honestly. You can pretend that Cloud Walker is OP because it allows you to move quickly if you wish, but that arguement is pretty laughable when you look at some other frames in the game. Sure Limbo might not have the maneuverability offered by CW, but he has infinite invulerability which has no timer and can interact with certain objects in the world even when invulnerable. If your definition of OP is to be believed, Limbo should be at the very top of your hit list right now.

Limbo's entire survivability depends on how well limbo controls the battlefield.  He has no built in sustain tool for health or damage reduction.  Staying outside of the same plane an enemy is in is the only way he's safe.  But in that way he can't do anything to anyone else.  You still have to leave the rift in order to interact with objective style items so you can't cheese that.  And you can severely cut down the risk of being hurt by going for a high duration on stasis.  But you still are capable of being insta killed.  Because going for low range means you yourself have very little room to manuver around in and you effect very little enemies.  And going for more range means you can parkour around to avoid damage but you risk not finding every enemy and potentially being ohk by a heavy or a nully touching your bubble when you're near enemies.  Limbo is most certainly busted.  But he does have his trade offs.  Wukong loses figuratively nothing by using cloud walker to live as long as his clone is on the field.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

 

Cloud Walker being buffed would make a lot more useful in terms of gameplay overall. Perhaps not to people like you who can go five minutes with shooting something and like the schizophrenic spamming that gameplay promotes, but to others who perhaps like to take longer with their planning or even want to use the augment to act as a mobile cloaking station for late game missions, it would incredibly more useful. These are all valid reasons, which you choose to ignore or pretend like they are simply just "opinions" when they are not.

The only extra usage aside from exploiting his clone further would be to give you more time to think about where you want to go.  As I gather this seems to be the main reason why you are wanting a higher duration overall.  The past way you interacted with cloudwalker made it a nice breathing tool from the frantic pace of the game.  It gave you the ability to observe the area without a worry of threat or time.  And because of that you could act accordingly.  This sort of gameplay approach was lost with the changes to cloudwalker and you're essentially wanting that back.  The problem is that DE's tweaks to the ability clearly push it towards a mobility style of play that helps you sustain on the field.  Perhaps DE thought having both styles available would cause an imbalance in the ability and thus shortened it's duration harshly.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Still far more effective than Wukong, who is vulnerable the minute he drops out of his Cloud. Valkyr can stay in her invulnerability for a very long time if she is constantly taking damage, same with Oberon. And your Limbo comment is a lie since he can interact with certain objects when in the Rift, like Friendship doors and Life support capsules for example. So both are more useful than Wukong.

She doesn't take damage in her 4 so i'm not sure what you're getting at there.  Nor do I understand the Oberon comparison.  Bird didn't lie.  Limbo can't interact with a majority of things while in the rift unless they're in the rift with him.  I think you took it too literally hence the given specific examples.  Bird is merely pointing out that you are not capable of never being in danger with limbo whilst also attempting to complete a mission.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

 

Are they indeed. Please show the mathematics around that then. Because drains, as far as I am concerned, work best with this game in a lot of ways. Tank drain abilities have the potential to be infinite. There is a reason people are asking for Chroma's rework to change his Vex Armour into a drain ability. Some people like them and they would be more useful on certain frames than a timer.

Drains for the most part get added to frames to balance out power.  The frames you've listed (from what I can recall) had drains already built into their kit.  It's a small distinction to make but it's an important one.  In Wukong's case adding a drain back on his ability would probably mean going fast in said ability would cause a massive energy loss (as seen by walking in prowl instead of simply rolling or standing still.)  Which would be detrimental to Wukong's current playstyle as he's very cast heavy and already is dealing with one drain constantly via his 4.  People would like a drain on chroma for two reasons.  The first being they don't like having to recast.  The second being they have to build for high duration which means range is tanked.  Meaning allies can't benefit from their min maxed buffs nor can his 4 be used in tandem.  I would argue against adding in a drain for vex armor for a handful of reasons.  But i'm in general not a fan of his design.  But as is this is considered a trade off.  Which is what frames should be making especially when having the power chroma has.  I'd argue that the problem isn't that his vex armor isn't a drain (since it's recastable mid timer,) but that the other method of play that being a team buffer isn't worth tanking your duration and strength.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

 

Your entire arguement is based on nothing but how you think it doesn't need a buff. That is not a proper counter-arguement. I have provided evidence for both why it would be made more useful and fun for gameplay, would allow for more build/play variety and how it would not break the game like you adamantly keep pretending it will somehow, because other frames have far more powerful versions of invulnerability with very litte drawbacks. And the main bottom line is that the duration buff would not affect the way you, or others who share your playstyle at all.

The argument from what i've read is you wanting your old playstyle back.  And Bird's perspective is that DE specifically made changes to move away from said playstyle and make it a more active mobility tool.  It is Bird's assertion that DE believes having a high duration with his current kit would be imbalanced.  And that you'd need to make a case to DE on how it wouldn't be in order to have your style represented in the same space that the new style exists.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

 

Firstly you are arging the short duration is perfect as you have repeatedly stated how you think it's fine and that I apparantly do not need a longer duration to enjoy it (i.e; telling me to play the game). You did so in this very comment.

Bird has argued that the shorter duration has not hampered him in anyway on how the ability is currently meant to be used.  They have also argued other points.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I am right in the fact that there is no reason not to buff the ability and that it would make it more useful in overall gameplay and variety. Making an ability that keeps you alive last longer is useful. There are already a lot of frames that do that, but far better and with far less drawbacks, subsequently outclassing Wukong in that regard.

And again, I have yet to see a real reason as to why the heal justifies the nerf anyway. You already can't do anything in Cloud Walker. You cant attack nor be attacked or interact with anything and you're already healed within the first few seconds of using it if you have decent power strength. So how exactly would making the duration last longer, unbalance the ability? It still has a limit, unlike some others we've already discussed and there are plenty of other ways to get your health back anyway, which means those frames are more overpowered than Wukong by your logic.

As mentioned by myself in my first bracket the longer duration would allow you to exploit your clone in a way DE probably isn't cool with.  Which to reiterate is making him invulnerable so he can go around killing everything for you with zero risk to yourself or your clone.  I really would be curious to see what your build is.  Because you can have a respectable 18-20 second duration on the ability without ignoring all other stats.  I don't see why you'd need much higher duration beyond that.  I get that it being a drain or 40+ seconds in theory takes the stress/anxiety off of you when planning on using the ability.  But again i'd have to raise that DE doesn't want that.  As evidence by their tweaks to the ability that pushes it in a different direction.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

 

It is honestly a shame some community members feel the need to fight so vehemently against something that would not affect them at all and is based purely on their feelings as opposed to real arguements like overall usefulness, improving the ability/gameplay or encroaching on other peoples gameplay experience.

There is no reason to be this prideful or passive aggressive.  You're assuming that if DE listened to giving you a higher base duration that they wouldn't touch the ability in other ways.  And it's because they could do so that it would effect Bird and other players.  Your perspective is fueled by feelings just as much as anyone elses.  That's part of debating.  Pointing this out serves no point to the debate at hand.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

At the end of the day, the bottom line is that a change in duration would make the ability as whole more useful and allow for greater variety in gameplay and builds. Everyone is free to continue playing as they wish, whether you like fast paced hopping and out gameplay, slower paced more strategic gameplay or perhaps a Enveloping Cloud build to act as a fast moving, long duration cloaking device for your team, or just having fun soaring across the open maps.

It would make it more useful for your specific style of play.  Passing that off as a buff to the ability as a whole is misleading.  Wukong as is already has quite a bit of variety with his gameplay purely because of how much control you get over his clone.  You can make a build that ignores his clone entirely to beef up your own survivability to reduce your usage on defy and mainly just use your 4 and 2 when you need a heal.  You can tank duration and go for high range and decent strength with the new 1 augment.  This allowing you to CC the map and knock down a fair amount of enemies that you don't kill with defy.  Making you a semi cc tank.  You can talor your loadout to have your clone strip armor while you mop up with a CO weapon.  Or vise versa.  While having a higher duration would allow for "strategy Wukong" and that's literally an extra "style" of play I would argue that it doesn't add much value wise to what he can already currently do.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

This is my last reply to you, as I feel like outright insults and telling other people to adapt to your own playstyle are where cordial discussions end in Warframe. I respect your right to play the way you like. It's a pity you do not do the same, even though the proposed change to duration would not encroach upon you at all and instead tell me I should play the game your way.

Thanks for your time, hope you have a nice day.

I'll just add myself here.  I'm not taking sides between you guys.  Nor do I actually intend to spark up yet another debate.  The reason for my reply was because there were parts of your response that I felt needed to be addressed.  (mainly the comparison of limbo and Valkyr.  But also the potential exploitive nature of more duration and the bit about drains.)  I may have over stepped my intent with certain segmented replies.  But my stance remains the same despite that possibility.  Ideally it would be nice if reworks were capable of keeping everyone's preferred playstyles intact while also improving the kit as a whole.  Sadly that is rarely the case as what some styles of play people tend to fall for end up being mega niche and often not intended within the vision for the frame.  I personally wouldn't care for a higher end cap on duration (because I quite like the short duration as is,) if DE literally only made that change to the ability.  But I don't believe they'd give him more time in the cloud without taking away else where in either the ability itself, it's interactions with the kit, or his kit.  So it's not a change I could wholeheartedly support.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Wrong again. My reason(s) are that it would be more useful overall if it had a longer duration and there is simply no reason to not make an ability more useful which doesn't mean it'll be overpowered. That's a simple fact. It won't be useful to you, but you do not encompass the whole community.

This reason is directly countered by: The current duration has been balanced against he new functions, such as the increased speed and healing, I didn't do that, DE did that, and unless you are going to move to take a function off, such as the healing, then you don't get to say what would or would be overpowered.

You're deliberately disregarding that point, which I have stated multiple times, and the only reason you give beyond that is that you believe they shouldn't have put the healing on Cloud Walker. They did, therefore the duration was shortened, that's the balance. Increasing the duration would allow for more healing, or for the same at lower power strength, which is increasing the functional power of the ability.

6 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Maybe you should read back a little more to where I mentioned Limbo, Inaros, Oberon and further on where I aded Rhino, Nezha and Ivara to the list. Like I said; you're pretending they don't exist.

In the conversation with me, you did not bring up those frames, but since you do now, let's get into them.

Inaros does not have a mobility cast, neither does Limbo. Rhino has a 'mobility' cast that is primarily damage and is far more heavily limited than Wukong's Cloud Walker, Nezha has a directional teleport that either travels short distance and bounces at odd angles to displace you from where you were going, or you have to charge it up and can only move in a straight line after the ability has reached that point, you are not instantly invulnerable and moving in every direction. And poor Ivara can't even bullet jump while using her Prowl, her primary method of maintaining her survival, and Dashwire is one of the most limited mobility casts in the game.

Even your own examples show that Wukong's is less limited and far better mobility than almost everything else out there, with the only thing better being the Operator Dash.

11 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Again, you talk like making Cloud Walker longer would somehow unbalance the game without explaining exactly why.

It's not about breaking the game, it's about there being no actual reason to extend it, especially with the balance of the ability being set to limit the functions it now has.

You aren't the one dictating what's balanced and neither am I. But what I can tell you, for about the eighth time, is that the short duration is DE's internal balance for the increased speed and the new healing function.

56 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Are they indeed. Please show the mathematics around that then. Because drains, as far as I am concerned, work best with this game in a lot of ways.

Simple; drains prevent energy regen from any source other than energy orbs or the Rage mechanic, it places the frame in a situation of either requiring being tanky enough to actually take the damage, or rely on toggling the ability on and off repeatedly in order to gain energy between uses.

As a Duration, a cast can be completely mitigated by any of our existing ways of restoring energy, from gear to abilities to even some of our mods that reward energy for actions.

At any point you are mathematically inferior to a Duration that can last the same amount of time, from that simple fact.

But that's not enough, is it? I'll have to provide you with a direct example:

Take an ability like Oberon's Renewal, on his 3. A 3rd ability traditionally costs 75 energy to cast, with the exception of ones that have additional costs like Valkyr's Paralysis. With out modding, Oberon's Renewal, actively healing an ally or himself for 30 seconds is 150 Energy, or double the cost of putting it on a 30 second Duration. With modding for both Duration and Efficiency, you can reduce Oberon's energy cost to only 0.25 per second, plus the same when actively healing for .5 Energy per second. Over 30 seconds, that's 15 energy. With that same modding the Duration ability would cost 18 Energy to initially cast, but last up to 60 seconds depending on your balance of Efficiency vs Duration, for an equivalent cost of only 9 for 30 seconds.

Energy drain is less efficient mathematically and a functional nerf to any frame that cannot use the Rage mechanic consistently.

Now Wukong, with his Defy, can make use of the Rage mechanic, I'll admit. But that still does not make the Drain better than a Duration, even a short Duration.

But wait, there's more.

When you get hit with an enemy or status that removes energy, such as a Magnetic proc, or an Energy Leech Eximus or a Disruptor Eximus, you have the disadvantage with a Drain of your ability cutting off instantly. Being completely unavailable. Meanwhile, on a Duration, first you don't actually lose that ability, it stays active until end of the Duration, and second just picking up an Energy Orb, or a few seconds of regen with Zenurik, can give you the full effects of that ability again, while with a Drain you would only get a few seconds at best from the same amount of energy.

A Leech adds 5 energy per second to each ongoing Drain ability, so if you were Wukong with Cloud Walker and Primal Fury running, you would have an additional 10 per second, massively draining your reserves and shortening your abilities down just for passing within range of that unit. Meanwhile a Duration would simply carry on as normal.

Drains are straight-up worse functions and you have to mod specifically to get past their down-sides before you even function in the game at an optimum level.

Put simply, you're confusing the ability to work around a mechanic with the mechanic being functionally good.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Firstly your first comment is incredibly ironic considering you were saying earlier that a longer duration somehow means you are compelled to stay in it for the full length, when you did not need to at all.

My comment is ironic because your comments go both ways. Your complaints about the short duration are just as silly as complaints about a long duration.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Secondly, why are you again telling me how to play the game?

I'm recommending that you... what's the phrase... 'deal with it'. Because, again, your comment cuts both ways and can easily be reversed to apply to your own complaints instead of mine.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You have provided no real evidence or reasons as to why it does not. Throughout this discussion you have done nothing but pretend like you haven't read my posts, straight up ignore some of them and act like somehow buffing Cloud Walkers duration would make it overpowered and isn't necessary because you don't see a need for it. Your entire arguement is based on nothing but how you think it doesn't need a buff.

How many times do I need to repeat this?

I don't care about the duration. I don't think it needs anything, true, but here's the argument I'm pitching:

Your opinion does not hold up. Your arguments are easily contested, and have been, and are not a good reason for DE to change the ability.

I'm not arguing that my side is better. I'm arguing that your side doesn't have any weight to it because it's entirely based on your opinion that DE made a mistake and didn't deliberately do what they've done for good reasons that you are ignoring.

You can say that making it longer will make it more useful, yes, that's a fine opinion to have.

But that doesn't mean they're going to do it.

The reason it's this short is completely clear-cut.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Making an ability like Cloud Walker longer would make it more useful. That is not a subjective opinion.

Make it more useful to you, which is a subjective opinion.

It doesn't make it any more or less useful from an objective point of view, because the 'useful' factor you're trying to push isn't the use the ability now has.

(Also thank you @(XB1)Knight Raime for clarifying that point.)

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

This is my last reply to you, as I feel like outright insults and telling other people to adapt to your own playstyle are where cordial discussions end in Warframe. I respect your right to play the way you like. It's a pity you do not do the same, even though the proposed change to duration would not encroach upon you at all and instead tell me I should play the game your way.

Fare well, but if your feelings are hurt by being called a 'soggy paper towel', then more's the pity on you. I'll get popcorn for when somebody dares to call you a poopy-head or something.

I'm not imposing my play style on you, I'm suggesting you adapt to the difference in play style the frame now has, and stop trying to use your opinions as a stance for change that is not necessary nor even supported by what the ability now is.

I look forward to debating you when you have suggestions that stand up on their own merits, rather than just opinions.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Personally, I'd move the healing from Cloudwalker to Defy and pull the clone into the cloud for the duration of your movement in it. I would allow people to toggle their cloud's movement speed with sprint/walk. This would allow it to be a high speed cloaked method of travel at a longer duration without making it exploitive way to use the clone from safety. It would also allow it to be a cloak to help the team/sortie mobile defense target.

I'd increase the base armor buff of Defy so it doesn't rely on enemies so much, and if you already have a higher armor value from a previous defy, the new defy would simply extend the duration, or add to the current armor value.  I'd give Defy's attack a spherical hitbox, not impacted so much by the terrain (a common issue with these newer frames)... going a step further, if possible, I'd store the damage from defy, and allow it to be released in a player-timed way, rather than at the end of defy every time, similar to Mesa's building-up-damage-to-release ability. (And to make it useful against armored targets, make it finisher damage/true damage)

I'll need more time using him to comment too much on the whole clone thing. I personally hate pets and AI party members in any game I've ever played, so not enthused about this being a core part of his new rework.

 

[Onyxeagle171]

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Some guns certainly. With my AkLex Prime he spent more time reloading than shooting for example, but with my Sybaris or Zarr he can occasionally be quite effective.

I wouldn't say the melee clone is ever "quite effective". It'll get the occasional kill or two but that's it.

Mine just steals a bunch of my kills :p

especially as his kills are not added to my count

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Onyxeagle171 said:

Mine just steals a bunch of my kills :p

especially as his kills are not added to my count

They are as long as you are the host, it's screwy.

[TheGodofWiFi]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Cloud walker makes your clone invincible and heals him.  It also status cleanses you and makes you untargetable.  Also leaving it opens enemies to finishers that are in your aoe.  In the comparison of limbo and valkyr they both have limitations.  Valkyr can't be hurt.  But she pays a heafty price of energy and can potentially die from it's usage.  Not to mention the short range of her ability.  Limbo is incapable of interacting with most of the environment and enemies in general unless they're on the same plane as him.  And by doing so he's potentially in danger.  either from nullies or other off switches and whenever he attempts to cast/change planes.  Wukong currently as is with cloud walker doesn't have the restriction of either.  No massive drain to force him outside the cloud.  And he can't be hurt and neither can his clone.  Meaning his clone can go around killing everything risk free.  He also is not in the same level of risk for leaving cloud walker like valkyr is for her 4 or limbo for leaving the rift.

Cloud Walker already made you invincible and cleansed all status effects beforehand. Leaving enemies open to finisher for a few seconds, which is what a lot of other frames can do, so again it's not really something special or unique. Limbo and Valkyr's limitations are a lot less severe than Cloud Walker and can be managed incredibly easily. Limbo being weak to nullifiers, also counts for every single frame in the game so that point doesn't really count either. Unlike either of those two Wukong has very limited survivability. Limbo especially since he can stay in his plane for as long as he likes with zero consequences and also gets a steady supply of energy for doing so. Wukong does have the restriction of Limbo in that he cannot interact with anything while inside his cloud. Difference is he cannot pull certain things into the Cloud with him so he can interact them without comprimising his safety at all, something Limbo can do. He is in far less danger than the monkey king as his abilities have very long duration and are very easy to manage. He's an S tier frame for a reason. The bane of all frames is the Nullifier, which is the whole point of the enemy.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Limbo's entire survivability depends on how well limbo controls the battlefield.  He has no built in sustain tool for health or damage reduction.  Staying outside of the same plane an enemy is in is the only way he's safe.  But in that way he can't do anything to anyone else.  You still have to leave the rift in order to interact with objective style items so you can't cheese that.  And you can severely cut down the risk of being hurt by going for a high duration on stasis.  But you still are capable of being insta killed.  Because going for low range means you yourself have very little room to manuver around in and you effect very little enemies.  And going for more range means you can parkour around to avoid damage but you risk not finding every enemy and potentially being ohk by a heavy or a nully touching your bubble when you're near enemies.  Limbo is most certainly busted.  But he does have his trade offs.  Wukong loses figuratively nothing by using cloud walker to live as long as his clone is on the field.

I don't know where you're getting the notion that Limbo has no damage reduction, since his whole theme is ignoring damage entirely. Yes staying in his plane is how he stays safe, as is the situation with many frames including Wukong. Some frames do it better than others and Limbo is definitely one of the top best. Limbo can do a lot when in his plane that Wukong cannot. Wukong cannot bring enemies into his cloud, freeze them and kill them at his leisure. Wukong cannot lock-down an entire map with his cloud either. Every frame has the potential to be insta-killed when they reach a certain point, even Inaros. That is the same across the board. I do not get what your point is with this. That Wukong is more tanky than Limbo? Certainly he is. Doesn't mean he's better overall in the slightest at survivability. With some objects you don't even have to leave the rift to interact with them, namely Friendship doors and life-support capsules. Wukong does not have that. You have to leave your cloud to interact with absolutely anything. The trade offs for Limbo are far less for Wukong. The main thing he seems to have going for him now is the clone and thats it. Sooner or later that Clone becomes useless and gets killed easily, whereas Limbo's abilities are not affected by enemy scaling. So at the end of the day, Limbo is better than Wukong in a lot of ways.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The only extra usage aside from exploiting his clone further would be to give you more time to think about where you want to go.  As I gather this seems to be the main reason why you are wanting a higher duration overall.  The past way you interacted with cloudwalker made it a nice breathing tool from the frantic pace of the game.  It gave you the ability to observe the area without a worry of threat or time.  And because of that you could act accordingly.  This sort of gameplay approach was lost with the changes to cloudwalker and you're essentially wanting that back.  The problem is that DE's tweaks to the ability clearly push it towards a mobility style of play that helps you sustain on the field.  Perhaps DE thought having both styles available would cause an imbalance in the ability and thus shortened it's duration harshly.

The reasons I am in favour of a higher duration are more than just taking a breather. Honestly I was planning on around building his augment for team play, but there is zero point for that now. Having more time to think about where you want to go, is not a crime like @Birdframe_Prime is so desperately making it out to be. The old Cloud Walker was bad in the fact that it was slow, but the potential for it was there. It already cleansed you of status effects and made you invulnerable, all it needed was a speed boost and it would have been great. Yes some people do like the more measured approach to a mission than just constantly killing things and subsequently being forced into a playstyle they do not like. I honestly do not see DE reasoning of imbalance, if that is why they nerfed it. Pablo doesn't even give a reason why it was nerfed he just states the Cloud is now fast but short on time. And funnily enough they leave that out of the main rework page.

Having more than one way to build a frame has always been part of Warframe from the beginning, different builds promote different styles of play. So this reasoning by DE would also contradict how the game has operated for a good few years.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

She doesn't take damage in her 4 so i'm not sure what you're getting at there.  Nor do I understand the Oberon comparison.  Bird didn't lie.  Limbo can't interact with a majority of things while in the rift unless they're in the rift with him.  I think you took it too literally hence the given specific examples.  Bird is merely pointing out that you are not capable of never being in danger with limbo whilst also attempting to complete a mission.

I was thinking of Oberon when I wrote the Valkyr part so my apologies. Valkyr still has a lot more survivability than Wukong in terms of functionality and freedom of interaction. The Oberon comparison is to show how other frames have heal on demand and are essentially invulnerable as long as they keep taking damage and how the drain mechanic is subsequently far more useful than a time limited duration would be. Oberon's heal having a duration attached to it would be a huge nerf to his survivability, which shows Bird how wrong he is when he says a drain is always a nerf.

Bird did lie. He said Limbo cannot interact with anything. Straight-up untrue. It's Wukong who cannot interact with anything in his invulnerability state.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Drains for the most part get added to frames to balance out power.  The frames you've listed (from what I can recall) had drains already built into their kit.  It's a small distinction to make but it's an important one.  In Wukong's case adding a drain back on his ability would probably mean going fast in said ability would cause a massive energy loss (as seen by walking in prowl instead of simply rolling or standing still.)  Which would be detrimental to Wukong's current playstyle as he's very cast heavy and already is dealing with one drain constantly via his 4.  People would like a drain on chroma for two reasons.  The first being they don't like having to recast.  The second being they have to build for high duration which means range is tanked.  Meaning allies can't benefit from their min maxed buffs nor can his 4 be used in tandem.  I would argue against adding in a drain for vex armor for a handful of reasons.  But i'm in general not a fan of his design.  But as is this is considered a trade off.  Which is what frames should be making especially when having the power chroma has.  I'd argue that the problem isn't that his vex armor isn't a drain (since it's recastable mid timer,) but that the other method of play that being a team buffer isn't worth tanking your duration and strength.

Drains are absolute god-sends on certain frames and a timer would undoubtedly be detrimental to them. I don't understand the notion that Cloud Walker being a drain ability would make Wukong suffer. It would promote more usage for the new Defy. Yes people want Chroma's 3 and 4 because its easier to cast. That is exactly my point and it the exact same principle here. It's easier, but not boring. We currently have to mod for high duration as well instead of range, which means that the buff range from the Cloud Walkers augment is tiny and you have to be in roughly the same vicinity as a current Chroma to gain the invisibility (which still wasn't fixed to not break when allies attack as well). Sure you can cast it mid-tier, but like you said; people want an easier option.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

he argument from what i've read is you wanting your old playstyle back.  And Bird's perspective is that DE specifically made changes to move away from said playstyle and make it a more active mobility tool.  It is Bird's assertion that DE believes having a high duration with his current kit would be imbalanced.  And that you'd need to make a case to DE on how it wouldn't be in order to have your style represented in the same space that the new style exists.

And I did. Better yet it would not affect Bird's playstyle at all. His reasoning for arguing back seems to be "this is what DE want" and "I don't need it" but the point is those arguements are heavily flawed. The I don't need it arguement is pretty easy to invalidate since changes are not stopped simply because one person doesn't see a need for it. A lot of people didn't see the need for Vacuum to be changed back to its full range but it happened anyway. The DE angle also doesn't work because sometimes DE are wrong. It's rare, but they are human just like the rest of us. I made a case that having Cloud Walker last longer would not be Overpowered, simply because it's a travel ability which does not allow for any attacking or interaction whilst it's active. I pointed to Limbo as an example of overpowered by his logic, and he never come up with a good response to that. Limbo straight up has more advantages than Cloud Walker and his invulnerability is infinite and has very little downsides. Beyond hacking terminals, there really isn't any need to come out of the Rift.

I would like the old duration back yes. I do not know why this is such a bad thing to put forward as I have already stated multiple times it, would benefit the ability as a whole, not just me and it would not encroach upon anyones playstyle, which is true.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Bird has argued that the shorter duration has not hampered him in anyway on how the ability is currently meant to be used.  They have also argued other points.

Other points which include "I do not need it for my playstyle" and "I don't want to have to stay in it for that long", which were both underneath the bottom of the barrel in terms of arguing points. I am happy that it hasn't hampered him. But why does that mean I should suddenly adapt to his playstyle?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

As mentioned by myself in my first bracket the longer duration would allow you to exploit your clone in a way DE probably isn't cool with.  Which to reiterate is making him invulnerable so he can go around killing everything for you with zero risk to yourself or your clone.  I really would be curious to see what your build is.  Because you can have a respectable 18-20 second duration on the ability without ignoring all other stats.  I don't see why you'd need much higher duration beyond that.  I get that it being a drain or 40+ seconds in theory takes the stress/anxiety off of you when planning on using the ability.  But again i'd have to raise that DE doesn't want that.  As evidence by their tweaks to the ability that pushes it in a different direction.

The ability would either have a timer, or if made a drain ability would simply take your clone off the battlefield with you, until you leave the Cloud Again. That's just one solution.

I have all the duration mods equipped and have a duration of 306%, yet the most I can get is a little over six seconds. I have never heard of a build that allows 18-20 seconds of the new Cloud Walker. If there is indeed one, please could you post it?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

There is no reason to be this prideful or passive aggressive.  You're assuming that if DE listened to giving you a higher base duration that they wouldn't touch the ability in other ways.  And it's because they could do so that it would effect Bird and other players.  Your perspective is fueled by feelings just as much as anyone elses.  That's part of debating.  Pointing this out serves no point to the debate at hand.

When someone is using arguements like "It won't affect me, but I still don't want the ability updated anyway" and/or "I don't want to stay in Cloud Walker", you'll forgive me for not taking them seriously and being a little irratated by that sort of response. The responses themselves are utterly self-righteous. The duration update wouldn't require another nerf. That was my whole point in the first place; that Cloud Walker never needed a nerf, or at the very least not as hard a nerf as it got.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It would make it more useful for your specific style of play.  Passing that off as a buff to the ability as a whole is misleading.  Wukong as is already has quite a bit of variety with his gameplay purely because of how much control you get over his clone.  You can make a build that ignores his clone entirely to beef up your own survivability to reduce your usage on defy and mainly just use your 4 and 2 when you need a heal.  You can tank duration and go for high range and decent strength with the new 1 augment.  This allowing you to CC the map and knock down a fair amount of enemies that you don't kill with defy.  Making you a semi cc tank.  You can talor your loadout to have your clone strip armor while you mop up with a CO weapon.  Or vise versa.  While having a higher duration would allow for "strategy Wukong" and that's literally an extra "style" of play I would argue that it doesn't add much value wise to what he can already currently do.

I'm not being misleading. Of course the duration buff would benefit me, doesn't mean it wouldn't be beneficial overall to others as well. More base duration means you don't have to focus so heavily on adding more duration into the build, which would free up more mod space for mixed builds. I was never misleading. Adding more styles of play is never a bad thing IMO.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'll just add myself here.  I'm not taking sides between you guys.  Nor do I actually intend to spark up yet another debate.  The reason for my reply was because there were parts of your response that I felt needed to be addressed.  (mainly the comparison of limbo and Valkyr.  But also the potential exploitive nature of more duration and the bit about drains.)  I may have over stepped my intent with certain segmented replies.  But my stance remains the same despite that possibility.  Ideally it would be nice if reworks were capable of keeping everyone's preferred playstyles intact while also improving the kit as a whole.  Sadly that is rarely the case as what some styles of play people tend to fall for end up being mega niche and often not intended within the vision for the frame.  I personally wouldn't care for a higher end cap on duration (because I quite like the short duration as is,) if DE literally only made that change to the ability.  But I don't believe they'd give him more time in the cloud without taking away else where in either the ability itself, it's interactions with the kit, or his kit.  So it's not a change I could wholeheartedly support.

You were far more intelligent in your approach and I have nothing but respect for you. Thanks for actually engaging in a discussion of possibilities instead of just using incredibly weak arguements and childish name-calling, which automatically closes any supposedly mature discussion. Your critcisms were presented well and clear.

The Limbo and Valkyr comments were interesting and you actually were cordial about it. The duration buff has the potential to add even more build variety into the mix and allow for different playstyles as opposed to being shoehorned into one you're uncomfortable with. IMO DE could update the ability without doing anything too drastic to the others. But then again, I apparantly can't see an imbalance that they can, if there is indeed one at all.

Edited June 26, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

16 hours ago, HealingMind said:

Firstly, "forward + melee" in my opinion is really bad as a moveset. It's fine on Wukong's 4, because he gets a lot of range and the moves are good general sweeping moves, but for melee weapons that don't have good range, such as Sparring or daggers, I don't think it'll be that good due to those weapons basically needing to be pressed into the enemy, meaning those weapons will mostly be stuck with whatever that stance move is. The "mash e while neutral" stances is real good, especially the beginning twirl that generates so much combo and status . The block combo I don't see much use for other than fun factor (and E X P A N D memes) since Wukong has so many ways of dealing with crowds or not caring so much about them, including just smacking them with the staff regularly, and the damage is really slow. The "gap closer" move is just bad, there's so many better ways to do anything you'd want it to do, including other moves in the stance. There's interesting ideas here, though I think there are some really strange ones.

To be honest, they could have just tried adding a heavy attack button that performs stationary combos and a  light attack button that performs agile combos. The heavy attack button could easily be bind to the reload/interact button as when melee is out, the button has no use other than interact.

[(PSN)Mpeach45]

I want to point out that Wukong is an excellent choice for void defense with randoms, because his passive means that when some dum bass turns on the console lasers, you get a buff that tells you there's a dum bass, instead of dead.

On the other hand, based on my experience last night where my Wukong was 40 meters from the cryo pod, and all three of my other squad mates went down when lasers turned on, I have to ask:

Does the trickster monkey clone turn on console lasers?

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Mpeach45 said:

Does the trickster monkey clone turn on console lasers?

No, but I 100% want this now just for the giggles.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Cloud Walker already made you invincible and cleansed all status effects beforehand. Leaving enemies open to finisher for a few seconds, which is what a lot of other frames can do, so again it's not really something special or unique. Limbo and Valkyr's limitations are a lot less severe than Cloud Walker and can be managed incredibly easily. Limbo being weak to nullifiers, also counts for every single frame in the game so that point doesn't really count either. Unlike either of those two Wukong has very limited survivability. Limbo especially since he can stay in his plane for as long as he likes with zero consequences and also gets a steady supply of energy for doing so. Wukong does have the restriction of Limbo in that he cannot interact with anything while inside his cloud. Difference is he cannot pull certain things into the Cloud with him so he can interact them without comprimising his safety at all, something Limbo can do. He is in far less danger than the monkey king as his abilities have very long duration and are very easy to manage. He's an S tier frame for a reason. The bane of all frames is the Nullifier, which is the whole point of the enemy.

I am not mega well versed in wukong so I was not aware that his cloud cleansed statuses before.  That's good to know.  The rest I knew.  My point that I seemed to have failed to convey is that each of the 3 frames have strengths and weaknesses to their "invincibility"  Valkyr is being actually invincible whilst still being able to do everything. but can potentially die with deactivation and has a high energy cost.  Limbo being uninteractable but having a severely limited interaction with the game.  And wukong who has the ability to not be attacked like limbo but still has the ability to kill things like valkyr via his clone.  Perhaps I loaded that portion with a bunch of unneeded information.  I was mainly just trying to point out the potential exploitive nature of the situation.  (Which again is having your clone kill everything at no risk to either the clone or you.)

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I don't know where you're getting the notion that Limbo has no damage reduction, since his whole theme is ignoring damage entirely. Yes staying in his plane is how he stays safe, as is the situation with many frames including Wukong. Some frames do it better than others and Limbo is definitely one of the top best. Limbo can do a lot when in his plane that Wukong cannot. Wukong cannot bring enemies into his cloud, freeze them and kill them at his leisure. Wukong cannot lock-down an entire map with his cloud either. Every frame has the potential to be insta-killed when they reach a certain point, even Inaros. That is the same across the board. I do not get what your point is with this. That Wukong is more tanky than Limbo? Certainly he is. Doesn't mean he's better overall in the slightest at survivability. With some objects you don't even have to leave the rift to interact with them, namely Friendship doors and life-support capsules. Wukong does not have that. You have to leave your cloud to interact with absolutely anything. The trade offs for Limbo are far less for Wukong. The main thing he seems to have going for him now is the clone and thats it. Sooner or later that Clone becomes useless and gets killed easily, whereas Limbo's abilities are not affected by enemy scaling. So at the end of the day, Limbo is better than Wukong in a lot of ways.

Damage reduction/midigation abilities.  Things like Vex armor, shatter shield, etc.  Limbo has none.  Saying limbo has damage reduction would be like saying revenant has damage reduction through mesmer skin.  The point of what you quoted was to explain why despite limbo being insanely powerful he's incredibly balanced.  I tried to showcase that by showing how frail limbo technically is.  And the tag line of "how well he can control the battlefield is his survival."  The point in this segment wasn't to make a comparison between Limbo and Wukong.  I think you might have taken me a bit too literally in this portion as you're arguing specifics.  I probably shouldn't have jumped at this point because of how it started to begin with.

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The reasons I am in favour of a higher duration are more than just taking a breather. Honestly I was planning on around building his augment for team play, but there is zero point for that now. Having more time to think about where you want to go, is not a crime like @Birdframe_Prime is so desperately making it out to be. The old Cloud Walker was bad in the fact that it was slow, but the potential for it was there. It already cleansed you of status effects and made you invulnerable, all it needed was a speed boost and it would have been great. Yes some people do like the more measured approach to a mission than just constantly killing things and subsequently being forced into a playstyle they do not like. I honestly do not see DE reasoning of imbalance, if that is why they nerfed it. Pablo doesn't even give a reason why it was nerfed he just states the Cloud is now fast but short on time. And funnily enough they leave that out of the main rework page.

I believe I noted that having a higher duration would give you both a breather and time for strategic usage.  As for building around the augment goes that's still doable.  I'm not sure why you think it to be pointless.

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Having more than one way to build a frame has always been part of Warframe from the beginning, different builds promote different styles of play. So this reasoning by DE would also contradict how the game has operated for a good few years.

It's a bit of a stretch to say Wukong can't be built more than one way specifically because you can't have a tactical version of could walker don't you think?

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I was thinking of Oberon when I wrote the Valkyr part so my apologies. Valkyr still has a lot more survivability than Wukong in terms of functionality and freedom of interaction. The Oberon comparison is to show how other frames have heal on demand and are essentially invulnerable as long as they keep taking damage and how the drain mechanic is subsequently far more useful than a time limited duration would be. Oberon's heal having a duration attached to it would be a huge nerf to his survivability, which shows Bird how wrong he is when he says a drain is always a nerf.

As a long time Valkyr main I would have to respectfully disagree.  I think that Wukong is much more survivable than Valkyr and in general better.  But that's a different conversation that we could potentially have in pms.  As this debate is already sort of clogging the thread imo.  In my eyes the only thing she has over wukong while in her 4 is the ability to interact with things like survival pods, locked doors, etc.  Which is a plus.  But I don't think it makes her situation strictly better than Wukong's.  As I noted the important distinction is kit's like Oberon's and kit's like Ivara's were built around having a drain in.  So yeah it's a nice thing for them because the kit was designed for it.  Adding in a drain to how his current kit is would likely mean energy is drained upon movement again.  And because you move incredibly quickly in cloud walker you'd burn your energy quickly.  Which can in fact be seen as a nerf.  And this is compounded by the fact that DE has added drains to post released frames to specifically nerf their potential.

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Bird did lie. He said Limbo cannot interact with anything. Straight-up untrue. It's Wukong who cannot interact with anything in his invulnerability state.

I explained what Bird was getting at.  and Wukong's clone still interacts with enemies while wukong is off the field.

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Drains are absolute god-sends on certain frames and a timer would undoubtedly be detrimental to them. I don't understand the notion that Cloud Walker being a drain ability would make Wukong suffer. It would promote more usage for the new Defy. Yes people want Chroma's 3 and 4 because its easier to cast. That is exactly my point and it the exact same principle here. It's easier, but not boring. We currently have to mod for high duration as well instead of range, which means that the buff range from the Cloud Walkers augment is tiny and you have to be in roughly the same vicinity as a current Chroma to gain the invisibility (which still wasn't fixed to not break when allies attack as well). Sure you can cast it mid-tier, but like you said; people want an easier option.

I'll simplify.  Wukong currently is very energy hungry.  So much so that rage/hunter adrenaline are used in most builds.  Adding a second drain to his kit that could POTENTIALLY drain even more energy in a rapid pace via moving around would hurt wukong's current core loop between cloud walker, defy, and attacking with primal fury.  Hence it might be harmful to his current kit.  When I have the time to get on my xbox today i'll pull together a build that should work for what you're asking for.

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And I did. Better yet it would not affect Bird's playstyle at all. His reasoning for arguing back seems to be "this is what DE want" and "I don't need it" but the point is those arguements are heavily flawed. The I don't need it arguement is pretty easy to invalidate since changes are not stopped simply because one person doesn't see a need for it. A lot of people didn't see the need for Vacuum to be changed back to its full range but it happened anyway. The DE angle also doesn't work because sometimes DE are wrong. It's rare, but they are human just like the rest of us. I made a case that having Cloud Walker last longer would not be Overpowered, simply because it's a travel ability which does not allow for any attacking or interaction whilst it's active. I pointed to Limbo as an example of overpowered by his logic, and he never come up with a good response to that. Limbo straight up has more advantages than Cloud Walker and his invulnerability is infinite and has very little downsides. Beyond hacking terminals, there really isn't any need to come out of the Rift.

I would like the old duration back yes. I do not know why this is such a bad thing to put forward as I have already stated multiple times it, would benefit the ability as a whole, not just me and it would not encroach upon anyones playstyle, which is true.

As i've already outlined it could potentially impede on the current style because DE could just as easily make other changes to compensate for more time in the cloud.  It isn't about DE being right or wrong.  It's about how they choose to do things.  We're not pretending that DE always makes the right calls.  We're merely stating how DE tends to behave and why they potentially did something.  You're looking at Limbo on a spread sheet.  His kit sounds incredibly stacked.  But if you are actually very familiar with limbo gameplay wise that's really not how it plays out.  Like, sure, you can just always cast stasis and cataclysm from the rift.  But leaving the cataclysm forces you out of the rift.  And in my particularly favorite way of playing Limbo i'm in and out of the rift constantly so I can continually stunlock an area with his rift surge and banish combo.  But I don't want to turn this into being about another frame.

You can't say it benefits the ability wholistically.  Because that implies that it's current duration is somehow hampering what it's supposed to be doing.  Which as Bird has tried to point out isn't the case.  It would benefit your playstyle and others who enjoy that style.  But as i've mentioned before I don't personally believe that said playstyle really adds much to his current kit.

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Other points which include "I do not need it for my playstyle" and "I don't want to have to stay in it for that long", which were both underneath the bottom of the barrel in terms of arguing points. I am happy that it hasn't hampered him. But why does that mean I should suddenly adapt to his playstyle?

Because DE pushed us to that way of playing.  Nothing more nothing less.

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The ability would either have a timer, or if made a drain ability would simply take your clone off the battlefield with you, until you leave the Cloud Again. That's just one solution.

I have all the duration mods equipped and have a duration of 306%, yet the most I can get is a little over six seconds. I have never heard of a build that allows 18-20 seconds of the new Cloud Walker. If there is indeed one, please could you post it?

See, this is where the problem arises.  Your suggestion to remove the clone when he goes into cloud walker would be hampering how people currently play.  So would tagging his clone with a duration.  The clone being on the field means at the very least you have a distraction while you reposition instead of the army of enemies watching in wait to light you up the moment you leave the cloud.  And at best means he makes the area you choose to land in even safer for you.  If you take him off the field then you lose that.  Adding a duration to his clone would slap the clone with double negatives.  As he has a health pool.  You'd be making his clone almost as bad as atlas's rumblers by doing so.  Plus the kit really is designed with the idea in mind that you always have a fighting partner that interacts with you.  If he had a duration you couldn't always guarantee he'd be there as a distraction when you needed to leave.  You couldn't guarantee he'd be there to use defy with you to build up your armor quicker.

You're essentially suggesting DE take away much of the current kit's identity just to satisfy an exploit that would arise from you wanting more duration.  Which only seems to move away from DE's intent with the ability.  Do you not see how bad that is?  And sure, as I said when I get on my xbox i'll go make the build and pm it to you.

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When someone is using arguements like "It won't affect me, but I still don't want the ability updated anyway" and/or "I don't want to stay in Cloud Walker", you'll forgive me for not taking them seriously and being a little irratated by that sort of response. The responses themselves are utterly self-righteous. The duration update wouldn't require another nerf. That was my whole point in the first place; that Cloud Walker never needed a nerf, or at the very least not as hard a nerf as it got.

Granted i've not read the entire back in forth between you and Bird but I generally know the person to be rather laid back and open minded to most people.  I can only assume that their attitude shift in the discussion with you comes from a place of exhaustion or frustration, potentially both.  This doesn't of course excuse rude behavior.  But I don't see the point in calling it out when both of you are guilty of being some what brash with each other.  You can say it wouldn't need another nerf.  You could be entirely correct, but that doesn't mean DE wouldn't.  Saying it was nerfed in the first place is questionable as wukong's entire playstyle changed with his rework.  If he still more or less had his old passive way of playing then yes, taking the duration is a nerf.  But considering the more active role Wukong now has and what cloud walker does in said role it can be said that it was buffed.  I'm not saying you're wrong for calling that a nerf.  Merely just highlighting how perspectives can change given context.

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I'm not being misleading. Of course the duration buff would benefit me, doesn't mean it wouldn't be beneficial overall to others as well. More base duration means you don't have to focus so heavily on adding more duration into the build, which would free up more mod space for mixed builds. I was never misleading. Adding more styles of play is never a bad thing IMO.

I'll try to restate.  Your behavior/attitude I have gleamed from your response segment that I quoted implies that giving the ability more duration as a whole is strictly a buff to the ability as as a whole.  I said that is misleading because that would have to imply that the ability is lacking without the extra duration.  The word misleading implies malicious intent and that's not what I was aiming for.  It was 6am and I wasn't all with it.  a better word to describe the situation here would probably have to be dishonest or specious.  True in that having more duration would mean I could put mod points else where, but as is I don't see where i'd direct that extra capacity.  As he's plenty survivable so more mods of that calibur would be overkill.  And while I could build towards some range he in general doesn't largely benefit from range.  I agree, but as I mentioned already I don't think the specific style of play adds enough that it warrents potential change.  You seem to operate in a very mater of fact, black and white sort of absolute way.  As evidence by you constantly going for specifics instead of focusing on the argument as a whole.  And being very adamant about positive verbiage like more and buff.  Which makes having the particular discussion a bit difficult.

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You were far more intelligent in your approach and I have nothing but respect for you. Thanks for actually engaging in a discussion of possibilities instead of just using incredibly weak arguements and childish name-calling, which automatically closes any supposedly mature discussion. Your critcisms were presented well and clear.

I would like to point out again that Bird is usually very upstanding.  More often than not compared to myself.  It doesn't help your case to repeatedly mention their behavior.  Even if it is accurate it detracts from the points as a whole and also effects how others might view you.  Again, not asking you to forgive Bird just trying to give you more...perspective on things.  So that you could potentially be more mindful in the future.

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The Limbo and Valkyr comments were interesting and you actually were cordial about it. The duration buff has the potential to add even more build variety into the mix and allow for different playstyles as opposed to being shoehorned into one you're uncomfortable with. IMO DE could update the ability without doing anything too drastic to the others. But then again, I apparantly can't see an imbalance that they can, if there is indeed one at all.

DE could certainly just add in a higher end cap on duration and be done with it.  It's technically possible.  I just don't believe that's the only change they'd make.  And I think Bird feels the same way.

Edited June 26, 2019 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I am making this post here as I do not know if this an actual bug or if it's intended.  I was attempting to make a build for a specific person and I couldn't reach the supposed 18 seconds cloudwalker is supposed to have if you maximize the duration stat.  The number comes from the wiki (of which i'm aware can be wrong.)  Ability duration in this game is the base duration times the duration bonus (i.e duration increase mods.)  In wukong's case at level 30 his duration in cloudwalker by default is 2 seconds.

Following the math my 6.01 seconds is indeed 301% increase from 2 seconds.  So the calculation turns out to be correct.  However, that doesn't explain where the wiki got 18 seconds.  By doing the maths in order for you to reach that with the maximized duration his base duration at rank 30 would have to be 6 seconds, not 2.  So is his duration always 2 seconds when leveling and if so is that intended?  Or is it somehow lower and works it's way to 2 seconds at max rank?  If so, why?

[Autongnosis]

I think that is a leftover from the old cloudwalker which used to have a longer duration. 

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Autongnosis said:

I think that is a leftover from the old cloudwalker which used to have a longer duration. 

Maximised duration on old Cloudwalker was like... over a minute.

I have read reports by other people that they had a different duration on Cloudwalker at lower levels, although I didn't notice this myself throughout my forma'ing.

[Melanholic7]

i can only guess, but i assume 18 sec - stun duration. Cloud stuns enemies, so maybe its this value. 

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, Melanholic7 said:

i can only guess, but i assume 18 sec - stun duration. Cloud stuns enemies, so maybe its this value. 

The stun duration is and always has been minimal. Enough time to get off one, maybe two finishers but that's it.

[InDueTime-EN-]

The base duration of Cloud walker is 2s, so clearly the 18s on the wiki is not possible. It maybe a bug that a couple of people encountered or it can be an incorrect input, but I think we could just ignore that number for now.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

55 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

I think that is a leftover from the old cloudwalker which used to have a longer duration. 

Old cloud walker could have much much longer than 18 second duration. 

42 minutes ago, Melanholic7 said:

i can only guess, but i assume 18 sec - stun duration. Cloud stuns enemies, so maybe its this value. 

Not possible to get the stun that high. 

30 minutes ago, (NSW)KentInkOVanheim said:

The base duration of Cloud walker is 2s, so clearly the 18s on the wiki is not possible. It maybe a bug that a couple of people encountered or it can be an incorrect input, but I think we could just ignore that number for now.

It's more than likely an error on who ever calculated it. Like maybe they took the first bonus and multiplied it by the base duration. Then took the value from that and multiplied it by the next bonus. But even then landing on 18 seconds seems impossible as you'd over shoot that. 

But yeah should probably ignore that for the time being. 

[(PSN)MarckKosky789]

Eu adoraria poder escolher a arma que fica em sua mão de clone. Exemplo: Aperte a habilidade de ele trocar de arma e segurar para ativar ou desativar a habilidade

[Gurpgork]

The thing I absolutely adore about the new Wukong is that he is massively fun to play, and not just because he's effective. I can use the staff to wack everything in my zip code at the same time, and then use Cloudwalker to very quickly be in a new postal code to wack things with. I love using the Redeemer while the clone blasts things with the Opticor, I love suddenly being able to fly 100 feet in the air to get out of trouble, and I love the hilariously huge reach of the staff. 

He just seems to embody everything I love about Warframe: The obscene amount of mobility, the undeniably cool albeit slightly silly atmosphere, the comically large weapons... I just love this iteration of Wukong. 

I may just be less jaded when I used to be, but I have very little to complain about when it comes to Wukong. I think he's one of my favorites now.