Wukong Revisit

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, 40PE said:

It is not timed skill

Not consuming any energy

Why isn't this a passive instead and give me a skill that acually 

 usable, pushable energy consuming, timed skills thats all I want Is it really hard to think up 4 skills?!!! PLEASE?!!

No, no. It very much isnt a passive. There are so many reasons why it isnt and shouldnt be a passive.

It is like a secondary frame that increases your damage output by insane amounts. It can distract enemies, it can CC (depending on weapon), it can heal itself, it benefits from all kinds of mods, it has more health than most companions (besides those Inaros uses), it stays close to you i.e it has a decent A.I and so on.

If it was a passive we'd have a weak specter-like thing just being in the way with zero damage output or utility.

 

[Legion-Shields]

Agreed OP it’s basically just a passive. Case closed.

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, Legion-Shields said:

Agreed OP it’s basically just a passive. Case closed.

You agree with every controversial argument just for the sake of it.

No, the first ability isn't a passive. Actively targeting enemies and synergy with other abilities are not passive mechanics.

[Legion-Shields]

30 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You agree with every controversial argument just for the sake of it.

No, the first ability isn't a passive. Actively targeting enemies and synergy with other abilities are not passive mechanics.

Nope I just agree with the cold hard truth. 

Edited June 22, 2019 by Legion-Shields

[FlusteredFerret]

22 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I summon @DeMonkey to add to this,

also , how are you supposed to get a clone if its a passive? if you can give a sufficiently valid mechanic to summon a clone i might agree with you.

 

Isn't there some sort of special ritual sacrifice required to summon The @DeMonkey? 

 

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Isn't there some sort of special ritual sacrifice required to summon The @DeMonkey? 

 

Spicy curry normally.

[yecobxd]

In general I think DE wanted Wukong to be a good new player frame so they gave him abilities that are more tuned for just that, as well as still having use in higher level content. I haven't been a newbie in awhile but I remember clearly that energy and healing was always sparse as well as sometimes needing a strong weapon for certain bosses.

The twin gaining some sort of damage buff over time would be cool but the main problem is how slow the AI is. A perfect twin of Wukong and his weapons with all their mods AND aimbot sounds amazing, until you actually see it in action. When it comes to melee, the twin presses "E" every second or so and im not even sure if it can build combo. For normal guns, its almost okay apart from the fact that it ignores the possible range and punchthrough limitations of the weapons. On top of that there are times where the twin just kinda checks out and crouches down and does nothing for a bit. AI getting smarter will determine how OP the twin will be whether it gets a damage buff or not. Using the twin as a new player is pretty convenient as not many people are playing normal starchart missions so you will always have some sort of support with you. It only costs 25 energy to cast with infinite duration so there's really no downside at all.

Cloudwalker healing both you and the twin feels like a "cherry on top" kind of addition because I feel Cloudwalker's main purpose is to either reposition yourself, or act as a panic button for when you lose a bit too much HP and need to get safe. Simply recasting your twin when its hurt costs the same 25 energy and is faster normally. The difference is that for a newer player, the twin you spawned at the beginning of the mission will have similar level of "tankyness" as yourself and when the twin is damaged, there is a good chance that the player is damaged as well. Being able to spend just 25 energy to almost/fully heal you and your AI friend its pretty invaluable at that level.

As for Defy, letting it utilize the staff's mods would be a great change for higher level content, but yet again because DE seemingly wanted Wukong to be ment for new players, it was purposefully made to be pretty much only good at killing lower level enemies. The armor buff is universally good but loses value in comparison when its used with a newbie build with low ranked mods, and an "endgame" Wukong tank build with triple Umbral mods, Adaptation, etc. I fully agree with making Defy's staff hit like a normal melee hit with the mods included.

You didnt mention a suggestion in your post but Wukongs 4, in a new player sense, is pretty good as it doesnt suck up too much energy and can still dish out crazy damage which is useful for some of the bosses new players will eventually run into. This carries over for higher level content as well when the staff is properly modded and paired with Gladiator set bonus/Primal Rage, it becomes a top tier melee easily. The buffs and stance changes from the rework definitely are straight up improvements without a doubt.

Overall I think DE did a pretty good rework despite the fact they got rid of the main use of the old Wukong (long/high level endurance runs). Some little changes and tweaks are absolutely welcome like the Defy one you mentioned.

Edited June 22, 2019 by yecobxd
*Rewording

[seprent]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Spicy curry normally.

Shouting loudly with something involving the monkey also works too but may resulting in getting sassed or smacked or a combination of the two 

since cloud walker allows you rein in the clone and you can call it back at any time couldn't we just unshackle its range and let it run around like a chaotic derpy boy with a unsustainable lust for blood and oil and if we needed it next to then and now quickly use cloud walker or using his 1 to teleport him to you instead of canceling him and start murdering there 

just a thought also does defy have a augment and if not what do you think would be interesting for it? i had a idea for one awhile back when i was into dota 2 and could make defy work like abbadon's ultimate borrowed time basically makes it opposite day for the game what hurts heals and what hinders helps granted i gave it no real thought more a passing glance so probably not balanced in the slightest 

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Watching the clone charge an enemy with it's melee weapon only to teleport back to you repeatedly because it ran out of range is not "balanced" or "totally fine".

How about, since the targeting is only single-target, the clone ignores the call-back range if you tell it to, but then pulls back after target is dead to prevent you from just steering him around an area like a little RC-kong?

[BloodKitten]

not sure if was mentioned, but the AI react strange with some weapons, when using the viper, it will shoot it like a grineer shield unit, with low rate of fire, i cant test every weapon, but other then that, he often do a double reload or at times, dont reload at all for extended duration, either the reload mechanic need to be removed, or fixed, he is diffrent then specters so i dont think it will be game breaking if he dosent reload on most weapons (he need to reload with tigris of course).

leashing need to be a bit more forgiving if attempting to use melee, and reduce weird decicion making like, "ordered to attack enemy" *twin decides he want to fall back behind a cornet and not attack for now*

Edited June 22, 2019 by BloodKitten

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

How about, since the targeting is only single-target, the clone ignores the call-back range if you tell it to, but then pulls back after target is dead to prevent you from just steering him around an area like a little RC-kong?

I was thinking along the lines of a flow chart, this is ofc mostly only relevant to melee clone.

E.g.

1) The clone will always run to and attack the closest target to it, it will ignore the pull effect until the target is killed. Upon killing the target it will then perform some checks.

2)  Are you out of range?

- If no the clone will repeat step one.

- If yes, then proceed to step 3.

3) Is there an enemy within say 15m of the clone?

- If no then the clone will teleport back to you immediately and resume from step 1.

- If yes the clone will target that enemy as if it were step one, and continue to ignore the pull mechanic until enemies within range are dead.

This does of course effectively mean that if it's swamped with enemies it will just chill there killing them regardless of how far away you are, however given we have the ability to manually recall using Cloudwalker I don't see much of a problem.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

I was thinking along the lines of a flow chart, this is ofc mostly only relevant to melee clone.

I think that DE won't like the 'proceed to Step 3' part. The option is then there for Wuclone to literally keep running further and further until out of the room when their rather poor choice of a range seems to be purposefully designed to keep him close to you and not doing that.

I'm all for the idea of letting him target and then kill an enemy that's out of the base range without getting called back, because that's sensible and doesn't leave you with a looping target-run-teleport cycle going on, but I think that after every target they kill, Step 2 should be; if yes, teleport back within range.

But literally only because DE put that awkward recall range on him for a purpose. So even if that range is implemented in a heavy-handed way, it's a good idea not to remove it arbitrarily.

From another perspective, if I'm leaving battle, I don't want the only way to get him to stop hitting things with a stick to be Cloud Walker.

[DeMonkey]

53 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think that DE won't like the 'proceed to Step 3' part. The option is then there for Wuclone to literally keep running further and further until out of the room when their rather poor choice of a range seems to be purposefully designed to keep him close to you and not doing that.

I'm all for the idea of letting him target and then kill an enemy that's out of the base range without getting called back, because that's sensible and doesn't leave you with a looping target-run-teleport cycle going on, but I think that after every target they kill, Step 2 should be; if yes, teleport back within range.

But literally only because DE put that awkward recall range on him for a purpose. So even if that range is implemented in a heavy-handed way, it's a good idea not to remove it arbitrarily.

From another perspective, if I'm leaving battle, I don't want the only way to get him to stop hitting things with a stick to be Cloud Walker.

I proposed a short range with the intent being that he only sticks around if there's something within range for him to actively hit, the moment there's nothing around he's back by your side. 15m is quite short, and was only really an example. 10m would have the same effect.

[vFlitz]

Alright, I feel like I have played him enough by now, including a slightly sub-60m Mot run, to have a more detailed opinion on everything. So, let’s go.

 

Celestial Twin – honestly, this ability is the highlight of this rework. It has wealth of potential in how it allows you to effectively use two different weapons at the same time against a group of enemies, the amount of devastating combinations here is staggering. Unfortunately, the number of problems that are holding it back is also quite high. The AI is very poor at using melee weapons (which will be most of the time, as using 2 out of 3 of your weapons as well using aimglide during area traversal constantly make it happen, unless you specifically choose to unequip your melee) Between the low rate of attacks, not making use of the weapon’s range, walking towards an enemy only to teleport back to you and try to walk towards the enemy again and suiciding in nullifier bubbles, the clone’s melee mode is as close as it can be to unusable wihout outright not working. The clone’s weapon choosing mechanic also ends up working against what we want to achieve rather than towards it, which is unfortunate.

The clone doesn’t seem to be targeted by enemies too often, but when he is, he loses HP rapidly as he cannot benefit from Adaptation or arcanes. Overall this puts his survivability below Wukong’s, despite the difference in health pool. While it’s not that big of an issue in your average content, in something like a Mot run or Arbitrations it doesn’t take that long for him to reach the point of dying almost immediately after being summoned, effectively making him a dead ability.

The augment can offer some decent CC, but with how little his other abilities benefit from range, it’s simply not worth building for. And if you really wanted the CC for something specific, you’d probably take a frame better suited for it rather than a purposefully gimped Wukong.

Proposed changes: Seeing as this ability, along with Iron Staff, is the most characteristic thing about Wukong now, I’d suggest expanding its options and making it more like Venari. Have the clone be active from the get go, if he dies you can either wait out a timer before he comes back or spend energy to resummon him instantly. On ability button hold, have him cycle between having melee, primary or secondary equipped, as well as a stealth/inactive mode, in which he could either disappear entirely or stealth himself and slowly move between enemies to blind them, without causing an uproar. Other than that, at the very least I’d like for melee AI to be improved and Adaptation (and maybe arcanes?) fixed.

 

Cloud Walker – This ability offers excellent mobility now, it feels great to simply fly through the mission with no regard for gravity, and it’s fast enough while doing so that normal frames are hard pressed to keep up. The healing is a nice addition for new players, more experienced ones have plenty of other options so it isn’t as exciting then. That being said, it’s fast enough that it doesn’t end up redundant due to external options. However, the stun is so short that by the time you end the ability, you only have time to perform at most one attack or finisher on a stunned enemy.

The augment can offer invisibility to allies, but attacks interrupt it. It’s rather rare in Warframe for players to go into a mission with no intent of attacking anything, so that severely limits the augment’s usefulness. Especially when you consider that Octavia can offer the same functionality without that flow or spending a mod slot.

Proposed changes: I think it’s good as it is, with the only things that should be changed being the augment and the cloud opacity – if too many of them layer on top of each other, it can be very difficult to see where you’re going.

 

Defy – The weakest part of the rework by far. First of all, it’s 2019, so why the hell does this keep turning my toggle sprint off? This ability just doesn’t feel good to use, it slows you down, it prevents you from doing anything productive, the swing at the end is only good against unarmored enemies, so a simple swing of your Iron Staff is much more effective. Yet use it you must, as with out the extra 1500 armor, little as it is, Wukong and his clone might as well be made of wet toilet paper. That armor cap makes it by far one of the weakest defensive abilities in the game, and Wukong doesn’t really have any means of scaling his survivability beyond it.

Let’s consider again how many limitations it has:

-can’t do anything but move slowly while active

-provides armor, which is objectively worse and less reliable than DR

-armor is capped

-requires enemy activity to do anything at all

-enemy activity can be very easily interrupted by other people in a squad

-can’t be easily refreshed, as you can overwrite your 1500 armor with as little as 50 if things don’t go well

-damage output is based solely on damage absorbed, which is well-known to be underwhelming to the point of uselessness (except in the case of Mallet, where enemies are constantly bombarded by the absorbed damage. But here it’s a single hit. That can’t even hit something that’s slightly above you.)

Just… why? Why would you go to such lengths to make the ability bad? Access to healing in another ability is no excuse, as I said before there’s a ton of ways to heal. Not to even mention there’s plenty of frames who have healing AND better defense tools. On a different note, it has some potential for synergy with Arcane Grace, as it can proc while you’re invulnerable. That could potentially remove frequent use of Cloud Walker for healing from your energy budget.. if the clone could use arcanes. But as long as it can’t, Cloud Walker is the go-to way for healing it, and this remains a half-baked dream. Another critical flaw is that the invulnerability doesn't extend to to your sentinel/pet. While you're soaking up damage without the ability to do anything else, they're very likely to die.

Proposed changes: I… just don’t know. The first thing I tried to learn about it is how much damage absorbed I need to hit the cap, so I can interrupt it there and not use it any longer than I absolutely must. That’s how good using it feels, imo. It has so many flaws that I’d say it deserves a redesign as a whole, but as far as simple QoL things that could be patched in easily go, it really could use audio indication that the buff is running out/has ran out. It’s very easy to miss it and not noticing that it ended is probably going to be main cause of death as Wukong. Also extend the invulnerability to companions so this ability isn't a ritualistic sacrifice of them.

 

Primal Fury: This exalted weapon pretty much went from zero to hero. It’s incredibly powerful now with delightfully high range to boot. Multihit attacks let you break nullifier bubbles easily without even switching to another weapon. I think the drain is a bit too punishing, however. It’s not really a turn on and off as needed kind of exalted, as it benefits heavily from the combo counter. Turning it off resets the counter for it entirely (and Primal Rage buff, though that is much easier to regain.)

Forward neutral combo is the one I ended up using the most, partly out of necessity as it can’t really be helped when you move. Not really a problem though, as its wide swings and 360 degree attacks are great at killing crowds. Stationary neutral is the highest dps combo with a lot of multihits, great for nullifiers and tougher targets. Forward block is in theory a great opener for priority targets thanks to its two forced procs, but Iron Staff is really just too strong for that to be very necessary except for some particular scenarios. As a distance crossing tool, a slide attack is better thanks to much bigger area of effect and good forward momentum gain. Finally, stationary block combo… doesn’t really have any use. Only direct hit of slams are worth anything, the radial damage is tiny, falls off with distance, and doesn’t scale with most mods. Since Wukong slams the ground with the tip of his staff here, it doesn’t make good use of its range and direct hits aren’t too likely. Since the way slams work isn’t likely to change, this combo needs some kind of special effect to be worthwhile. Perhaps applying random status procs, to go with Wukong’s chaotic nature?

One thing that I really don’t like though, is that half of the combos require the right mouse button. That switches us to firearm and into aiming, so if we want to change the combos we use often, the camera is spazzing constantly. It’s bad enough with normal weapons, with snipers equipped it’s unbearable. The combos need either a different input, or the switch to firearm on right mouse button needs to be removed. Though that’s probably a topic for a whole new thread.

As for the augment, it’s pretty useful, a good (and stronger) replacement for True/Sacrificial Steel on the staff. Only thing that doesn’t sit quite right with me is that the limit doesn’t scale with Strength, even though for Teeming Virulence it does. And Teeming Virulence is much more versatile considering it can affect any primary, while Primal Rage is for one specific melee. I know Iron Staff is strong enough as it is, but still…

Proposed Changes: Other than improving the slam combo, perhaps considering some changes with the inputs, and maybe making the augment scale, I don’t think there’s much to be done. The animations could use a little polish, they’re a bit rough around the edges and the staff clips through Wukong really often.

 

Passive: A long run didn’t really change my opinion on it. I died 3 times before I decided that going on isn’t worth it between my struggles with energy and my kavat and clone dying constantly. My normal lives would have sufficed to cover that. If I stayed against my better judgment, I would have lost the remaining lives quickly, or try to stay alive at the cost of being unable to keep the life support up. The passive adds nothing of value, be it difficult missions or easy ones.

Proposed Changes: Anything. As it is, it’s only marginally better than having no passive. Atlas has to passives so maybe go that route and give him something that’s consistently useful, or else just redesign it entirely.

 

General thoughts – Wukong, in his current state, is really demanding on your energy reserves when things get serious. Between the constant drain from Primal Fury, frequently healing myself and the clone with Cloud Walker, as well as keeping Defy’s armor buff up, I found myself running out of energy numerous times during my Mot run. My build has around 220% duration and 100% efficiency, along with a rank 2 Arcane Energize. It’s rather rare for Energize to fail to meet my energy needs at 100% efficiency, even though it’s only rank 2. Perhaps a rank 3 would suffice, but until then I have to consider Wukong an energy-hungry frame.

He also severly lacks in team utility, with his only options having so little impact that they end up being omissible. He doesn't have to be like Nezha where half of what he does benefits the team as a whole in some way, a good support effect in one ability would be enough to make a difference.

In long runs, where his niche previously was, Wukong doesn’t have much to offer. In Mot, the point of getting sudden oneshots if I so much as dared to not be on full hp for a few seconds was around level 110. A bit higher and then it would be oneshots regardless of my current hp. In a normal mission the limit would be higher, but still nothing worth writing home about. While he has abilities that give him invulnerability, they effectively prevent him from getting anything done. Well… almost. The safest way to play Wukong currently is by sitting in Cloud Walker all the time, which not only makes you unkillable, but your clone as well. And unlike yourself, your clone can keep fighting while you use Cloud Walker. So you can just direct your clone from enemy to enemy and watch it fight.. I don’t recall the point of this rework being to reach new heights in lack of interactivity and interesting gameplay, so something absolutely needs to be done about it.

In your typical everyday content though, he's now a pretty fun and solid frame. Versatile, too. It's not often we get a frame who can do spy missions as easily as it can jump into the fray and tank at sortie 3 enemy levels, so it's a welcome change.

To those of you who mostly cared about Wukong’s survivability, I can only offer this meme: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170489338054967296/592090825660432386/wukong.png

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

10m would have the same effect.

I'm more concerned with those situations where he just wouldn't be where you want him. If there's five enemies over on one side of the room, clone sees them, runs off, but I want to go, I don't want to have to force it to heel with another ability because he's still wailing on the other four enemies.

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm more concerned with those situations where he just wouldn't be where you want him. If there's five enemies over on one side of the room, clone sees them, runs off, but I want to go, I don't want to have to force it to heel with another ability because he's still wailing on the other four enemies.

In that regard, there's not much reason to not use Cloudwalker when you want to go, as it provides substantial mobility.

Furthermore, the clone should be able to kill those enemies pretty swiftly since it's using your modded weapon, so it killing 5 enemies and teleporting to you wouldn't take much time at all.

[Birdframe_Prime]

28 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

In that regard

Eh, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, my friend. I've not yet found the teleport range to be exactly problematic, but I see the problem often enough that I do want it fixed. On the other hand, I don't want my clone able to free-roam away just because there's another, and then another, and then another enemy that they can hit.

I have that exact problem right now with Tornado, because that's exactly how it behaves; just sees the next enemy and goes for it until all funnels have wandered out of the room or into places where they simply aren't useful to me. And that's with really slow movement, too, not with the speed of a sprinting monkey...

[Aldain]

After looking over the rework in detail, I find this to be a very good overall change, especially the new passive.

I've actually started to research Wukong because of this on Switch.

But I do have one question while the research ticks down, how's the energy consumption when using both his 1 and 4?

[Solarsyphon]

There was a bug with multiple clones can recommend that more clones would be cool. Why not have 3 clones and be a whole party on your own.

[achromos]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

But I do have one question while the research ticks down, how's the energy consumption when using both his 1 and 4?

his 1... is a activate and forget type deal in most case.

his 4... depends on your duration mostly and efficiency second.  I got mine down to about 1.79 e/s with 170% duration 130% efficiency.  Lasts a good while imo.

[PsiWarp]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

After looking over the rework in detail, I find this to be a very good overall change, especially the new passive.

I've actually started to research Wukong because of this on Switch.

But I do have one question while the research ticks down, how's the energy consumption when using both his 1 and 4?

Primal Fury is similar to old Defy's energy consumption rate, so if you could manage that before then it shouldn't be a problem now. You might find yourself casting Cloud Walker more often to fly quick/heal up/recall Wuclone back, and the new Defy when you want its armor bonus.

New Wukong seems to favour Strength and Duration more than Range, so with Celestial Stomp augment, you would want a good amount of Efficiency/Energy reserves when using Primal Fury too.

With or without augment, Celestial Twin's mark is free to cast, so use that as often as you like.

Edited June 23, 2019 by PsiWarp
autocorrect

[Xamerzan]

I just skimmed the first page so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I would like for the first ability to still be usable after you have summoned a clone... what exactly that would look like would be dependent on what's most useful, but my first thought would be that the Wukong player can see where their clone is at all times via friendly way-point and can swap locations with it as long as you have enough energy (like Loki's Switch-Teleport, but with little interruption). I'm sure there's something that'd be more useful than swapping positions, but at least it's something.

[DeMonkey]

8 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

My only gripe from what I've seen is that the augment for his 1 should've been implemented into the ability by holding the button.

Then how would you despawn it?

[vFlitz]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

It just boils down to that I want that rhino stomp without wasting a mod slot (which my current build doesn't even allow) v.v

Even without spending a mod slot, it just isn't worth it in its current state. You'd have to build range, which doesn't benefit your other abilities in impactful manner, and prevents your from going for high duration, which is important for Cloud Walker and Defy. The suspension duration doesn't even scale with duration mods, so it's always roughly the same as the stun from cloud walker. If you really need cc and want range to the point of gimping more important elements of your kit for it, you might as well use cloud walker's stun instead.

17 hours ago, Aldain said:

After looking over the rework in detail, I find this to be a very good overall change, especially the new passive.

I've actually started to research Wukong because of this on Switch.

But I do have one question while the research ticks down, how's the energy consumption when using both his 1 and 4?

With his 1 only summoning the clone and using the augment cost energy, marking enemies is free. So what you need to worry about is the combined cost of healing yourself and the clone with 2 as necessary, refreshing armor buff from 3 and the constant drain of his 4.

It depends on the content. If enemies are weak and you don't get hurt much, you won't have to use Cloud Walker more often than you want to use for mobility, and you might not need to use Defy at all as well. But when it gets tougher, you have to heal often and keep the armor up constantly. With my build it lasts around a minute and costs 50 energy, so it's almost another 1 energy/s on top of Primal Fury's 2/s

There's a lot of frames that I can play at 100% efficiency and relying only on my rank 2 Energize, but Wukong in high level content isn't one of them.

Edited June 23, 2019 by vFlitz

[DeMonkey]

16 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

There's a lot of frames that I can play at 100% efficiency and relying only on my rank 2 Energize, but Wukong in high level content isn't one of them.

I disagree, somewhat. I've been running without flow, without energise, without high efficiency and relying on hunter adrenaline for energy at high level. Works well as long as enemies can actually hit you, using Decaying key for even easier energy.