Wukong Revisit

[Makinpo]

Iron Staff is too long (visually). It's clipping everywhere.

[TheGodofWiFi]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yes, I am saying it wouldn't be any more fun to me to have more time in the ability. I have fun with the short ability and have not so far as my gameplay has gone, wanted or needed more time in the ability.

So you are saying “I don’t want it, therefore no one else should be allowed to have it.”

Not really a very strong argument friend.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The Universal Vacuum... nerf? What universal vacuum nerf?

Obviously you were not here or did not pay attention when they nerfed the universal vacuum heavily when it first implemented. It was barely worth using that you might as well have just not bothered equipping it. The range was nerfed to half of its original Carrier range, which sent the community on fire. And guess what it changed because people wanted it. I’m going to continuously point to this because it completely invalidates your “You need more than a want to get a change” which is provably false.

The Greedy Mag was making it easier to get loot. Thats all it did.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yes, and my simple reason is 'why?'

As I have already explained; because there is no proper reason to not do it and because it is fun. You do know that we play games for the sake of having fun right?

In regards to the common “It Heals!” response that I’ve grown so used to now, you do know that other frames have infinite healing that is much better than Wukong's and they do not have any sort of drawback. Wukong’s heal is, by definition weaker than a lot of other frames like Inaros, Nidus, Oberon and Trinity. 

“Direct counterpoint with evidence”, maybe you need to think about that again.

Your logic makes about as much sense as the people who, with no sense of self-awareness, called those who wanted the original vacuum range back “lazy”. 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, you're right, other frames with similar powers have worse drawbacks.

Not the ones I mentioned and quite frankly not a lot of the ones you mentioned either.

Wukong cannot interact with the world when in Cloud Walker same as Razorwing, difference is that Cloud Walker is not a draining ability when it should be. Wukong also cannot use any of his weapons when in CW so I really don’t get what your point is here. To show how Titania is better?

Hildryn’s flying also drains and while it doesn’t allow her to cross pits, you can stay in it for a longer than Cloud Walker and you can fire her weapons which can be modded to be quite powerful. Another strike against Wukong.

Zephyr’s one is the same as Wukong Cloud Walker in many ways. Its annoying, you have little control over it and needs to be spammed. So basically the same. And no, you can’t control Speedy Cloud properly with five seconds, so don’t bother trying that.

Don’t know why you felt the need to mention Excal and Atlas’s ones since Wukong doesn’t have any sort of kit like that whatsoever. Excal’s Blade is also better than Wukong’s staff.

You got me with Ash and Loki’s teleport, since they do need living things to teleport to. So Wukong technically can travel more freely than them, well done. Now tell how exactly that means Wukong is better than either of them? Because they have extended invisibility and he doesn’t.

Nova’s teleport is far far far superior to Cloud Walker and gets you places a lot faster. You can recast as often as you want so I don’t know why you’re making stuff up now. You act like you can somehow turn and reposition properly with Wukong when you barely have five seconds to do so. Not an ability geared towards strategic planning is it.

Valkyr’s animation is still more usefull than Wukong’s Cloud right now. At least you can grapple very far and get pulled quick. 

Wukong is not the best movement in game at all. That is purely your opinion and like I said before, some opinions trump others and the simple fact is, Cloud Walker is not as smooth/effective as it could be if it had a longer duration or was a draining ability. Nova’s portals, Volt’s speed and Titania’s flying all outmatch it. But the thing is, with the proposed changes, it likely would be on par with those abilities.

Yes I do think its not a good mobile ability if it only gives you four seconds to enjoy it. There is nothing moronic about that and the fact you think its “laughable” just lowers your standing. Wanting longer to enjoy an ability that could actually be really fun if it had a longer duration is not a concept that is difficult to grasp. You really are just fighting for the sake of it.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Actually I just like disagreeing with people who think that their opinion that DE did something wrong is enough for DE to change it.

Well then you must be new because that is how Warframe has worked for the last six years and is the reason why DE actively interacts with the community and things like “feedback” sections.

I’ll bring you back once again to the Vacuum nerf. That got changed because the majority said DE made a mistake, which they did. So that invalidates your logic.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

DE created an amazing new iteration on Cloud Walker. It now heals, and can travel further in 4 seconds than the old one could in 15-20, it no longer triggers alarms and you can use melee ground slams and even melee finishers right out of it.

Triggering alarms is apparently the main selling point for this as if its never been done before and as if laser traps are 90% of the games content. Now that is what is truly laughable.

Cloud Walker did not need to have a heal and again that is still not a justification for the rework for reasons I mentioned previously.

If Cloud Walker was given its old duration back it would be amazing to use. If it was made a drain ability it would be even better. You are simply determined to argue against this because you like arguing. You have no real reasons, just “I don’t need it, therefore you don’t either” which isn’t how reality works.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I wouldn't want to be in it any longer, because I want to get back to playing.

Is this supposed to be a genuine reason for not buffing the duration....

Who exactly is stopping you from leaving the ability before the duration is up? This is another flimsy false logic that I’ve seen some people use. You do know that you don’t have to stay in the ability for forty seconds right? The duration being extended would not affect your style of gameplay at all.

Yet another example of how your argument has no foundation whatsoever. This is definitely not a good case for not buffing the ability, which is to be expected.

You are saying I should care about your gameplay experience over my own, even though my gameplay experience of using Cloud Walker for longer would not affect you negatively in any way whatsoever.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And if you want to change it, you'll have to come up with a better reason than 'because I want it'.

I’ve already proved this line of logic to be false with the Vacuum case. The only reason it was buffed up again was because people wanted it. Simple as that my friend. It didn’t need to be buffed since it didn’t stop you from picking things up, but it was buffed anyway due to community backlash. That is how reality works.

Also my reasons are; it will be fun, it will be more useful in gameplay and it will not affect anyone negatively at all.

Pretending like you would be forced to use Cloud Walker for a long time if the change was implemented, is not an argument. Thats comedy,

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I enjoy this ability,

And the proposed changes would somehow damper your enjoyment of it? I doubt that very much. Making it longer simply will not affect you. Claiming otherwise by saying you don’t want to stay in Cloud Walker for its full duration is quite frankly digging the ground underneath the bottom of the barrel in terms of weak defences/reasons.

I do not enjoy the ability how it is now and the changes would make it more enjoyable for me and those with the same outlook, while not affecting you or those who enjoy fast paced gameplay in the slightest. That is a fact. 

You simply just don’t want a longer duration because it means more people, as well as you, will enjoy the ability.

The argument you have put forth is weak and is backed by nothing. You have not provided any evidence that the duration being longer would be bad and are just denying others because you don’t feel the need for it. Thats not how the world works.

My argument trumps yours in every way, because it does not negatively affect anyone, provides more reasons as to why the buff should happen and does not purposely mess up other peoples gameplay (unlike yours).

Edited June 25, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[vFlitz]

56 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm not building for procs at all. If an enemy takes long enough to die that I manage to proc them a few times then I took too long to kill them. 

That'd be true with the old Iron Staff, but with the status chance and multihits in some combos it has now, It's really not hard to get a proc or two out in the first two attacks. And with just two procs CO is already a 2.56x damage multiplier

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, vFlitz said:

That'd be true with the old Iron Staff, but with the status chance and multihits in some combos it has now, It's really not hard to get a proc or two out in the first two attacks. And with just two procs CO is already a 2.56x damage multiplier

There aren't many things that survive one or two attacks.

The build's damage is already so over the top that it makes no difference. If I were to add it in I'd replace the Gladiator mod, but given my damage will already go further than my own survivability I don't really see the point.

[vFlitz]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

The build's damage is already so over the top that it makes no difference. If I were to add it in I'd replace the Gladiator mod, but given my damage will already go further than my own survivability I don't really see the point.

Well, yeah, that's a fair point. Only thing I can think of off the top of my head is fighting a demolyst, they're way tougher than normal enemies so having CO pays off big time for them.

But it'd be more for your clone's benefit than your own, as you can't really fight a demolyst with Iron Staff without having it constantly turn off from the pulses.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, vFlitz said:

But it'd be more for your clone's benefit than your own, as you can't really fight a demolyst with Iron Staff without having it constantly turn off from the pulses.

Exactly. And god do I hate that pulse.

[1Ruinmaster1]

A suggestion: make Wukong impervious to any energy drain from enemies because while this is active all you can do is watch them leech your energy away which was problematic for me at higher levels.

I also encountered a bug, I was using Primal Fury and my energy ran so naturally he puts away his staff, but seconds later I observe the Celestial Twin still using the staff (while not activated by me).

[DeMonkey]

Just now, 1Ruinmaster1 said:

A suggestion: make Wukong impervious to any energy drain from enemies because while this is active all you can do is watch them leech your energy away which was problematic for me at higher levels.

All frames have this problem, that's the entire purpose behind the enemy.

[Birdframe_Prime]

33 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

So you are saying “I don’t want it, therefore no one else should be allowed to have it.”

Not really a very strong argument friend.

So you're saying 'I don't want it, therefore they should change it'?

Not really a very strong argument, friend.

34 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Obviously you were not here or did not pay attention

Oh I was here, and paying attention. DE didn't want universal vacuum in the first place. They did, in fact, only give it because of the massive, overwhelming majority of the players saying that they wanted it. But there's those key words; overwhelming majority. I don't see you having one of those.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The Greedy Mag was making it easier to get loot. Thats all it did.

Oh-hoh-hoh, you either weren't here or weren't paying attention. Greedy Mag enabled infinite abilities with the Energy Orb draw, such as Infinite Mesa. Infinite Mesa enabled permanent map nuking.

Greedy Mag was the entire reason that Draco is now a Survival, that Mesa has a manual aim, and that there are now line-of-sight blockers to every single point on what was the Draco tile set.

She also pulled loot and energy orbs through walls, enabling infinite camping with infinite Excal Exalted Blade waves through the scenery. Greedy Mag enabled a whole mess of ridiculous content and that's the literal, documented reason for the nerf, you can check.

40 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Not the ones I mentioned

You didn't mention any.

41 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And no, you can’t control Speedy Cloud properly with five seconds, so don’t bother trying that.

I can, and do. I even mentioned to one of the other players on this thread that, as a long-term Zephyr player I'm completely used to using aerial routes through maps and quite frequently out-pace other frames using the short burst of mobility casts when I need them, plus I have complete and total control over where I am and where I land.

To the point that I can stun enemies with the cloud and use Finishers on them when I want to exit the cloud too.

This argument tells me more about how you can't control it, and are projecting the idea that nobody else can, than about what you actually do with Cloud Walker.

44 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And the proposed changes would somehow damper your enjoyment of it? I doubt that very much. Making it longer simply will not affect you.

Again, no, not really. They just wouldn't make me enjoy the ability more than I do now, and it's not me that you have to move on this.

Your argument has no backing and is easily countered by somebody just having a different opinion, so it won't move the people that would actually make the change.

This isn't even like the Vacuum change, which people wanted in the thousands, in the vocal majority of the player base, you have a very un-vocal minority. Even weight of opinion isn't in your favour.

My point in being here was to contest you, the one with an opinion, to see if you have anything, anything at all to back up your opinion. It's a debate. If you don't back up your points with anything more substantial than that you think DE was wrong to do this the way they have... you don't win.

DE made this the healing cast, therefore they reduced the Duration. To counter the reduced Duration they vastly increased the speed so that with the same amount of energy you could go the same distance that you went before, and on top of that made it possible to actually target enemies and use it as an offensive reposition with your melee which a huge amount of the community actually asked for.

That's their balance for the ability. You argue that they should have put healing on Defy? Sure. But they didn't. They put it here, it's their balance and until you come up with something that can convince other people here, you won't convince anyone at DE.

But more than that, this comment of yours shows how far off your logic is:

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

difference is that Cloud Walker is not a draining ability when it should be

This is complete and mathematical fallacy. Drain is not advantageous to any frame. Ever. Especially not compared to refreshable or cheaply cast Duration abilities.

Drains are put on abilities as a functional nerf to the warframe as a whole. To limit and prevent the frame from performing certain actions while using the ability and for the ability to have a set end if not manually maintained with energy pickups, augmented by only arcanes and the Rage mechanic.

If Wukong can't be hit, he can't use Rage, and if he's in Cloud Walker he won't pick up energy either. The drain on Cloud Walker was unnecessary and purely designed by DE to limit his ability to keep his other abilities going at the same time, and to prevent using it as a way to recover from using his other two drain abilities freely.

Cloud Walker, as mobility, should never be and shouldn't have ever been, a Drain.

Walk yourself off the pitch.

[Xepthrichros]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 I usually play a fun little build of Jet Stream Zephyr, most consistently fast progress through a map I've found. And maybe it's because I'm used to taking routes that other frames can't, or don't, over the top of obstacles and around corners in the air, that the new Cloudwalker just... clicked with me.

I couldn't click with Zephyr as I just couldn't get used to the floatiness that happens between jumps. And for Titania, she had some kind of inertia due to archwing mechanics.

Cloudwalker though. I go in whatever direction I wish at the press of a button with no lag besides the cast time, which is really short compared to what it was before. Been waiting for DE to add something that changes the way I play and this is definitely one of them.

 

 

59 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Wukong also cannot use any of his weapons when in CW so I really don’t get what your point is here. To show how Titania is better?

But he can break cloudwalker to attack and it is not inconvenient. I think its good that it works this way so that it's different form other flyer frames.

 

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And no, you can’t control Speedy Cloud properly with five seconds, so don’t bother trying that.

But I can control him properly in five seconds. 

[Agayek]

3 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

 I also have 3 Glad mods on my normal melee weapon.

Yeah, I did that too, but instead of my normal melee weapon, I just slapped on Helios and stuck the gladiator mods on its weapon.  It works pretty well, and as a bonus gets me all kinds of free scans of crap.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Agayek said:

Yeah, I did that too, but instead of my normal melee weapon, I just slapped on Helios and stuck the gladiator mods on its weapon.  It works pretty well, and as a bonus gets me all kinds of free scans of crap.

Tempted to do that and remove my melee weapon so that the clone shoots as much as possible.

Although, do we not lose the set bonus upon the sentinel dying? I vaguely recall the synth set losing a lot of effectiveness upon my carrier dying.

[vFlitz]

10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Although, do we not lose the set bonus upon the sentinel dying? I vaguely recall the synth set losing a lot of effectiveness upon my carrier dying.

I recall reading somewhere they stay, though I haven't tried myself. Kavats master race, and if I do end up using a sentinel, it's djinn so no deconstructor for me

...Defy really needs to apply invulnerability to companions too.

[Agayek]

15 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Tempted to do that and remove my melee weapon so that the clone shoots as much as possible.

Although, do we not lose the set bonus upon the sentinel dying? I vaguely recall the synth set losing a lot of effectiveness upon my carrier dying.

I haven't noticed any issues, but admittedly, my sentinel has only died doing thermia fracture stuff.  Not sure if I've just been lucky or if the self-heal mod I put on it does serious work, but my non-primed regen has been enough to ensure I have a sentinel almost always.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Wow, now that I've played with him, I feel like you're seriously better off not even equipping a melee weapon on Wukong 

[DeMonkey]

Just now, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Wow, now that I've played with him, I feel like you're seriously better off not even equipping a melee weapon on Wukong 

Yeah, melee clone really is that bad.

He doesn't have the speed boost they said he'd come with, he doesn't attack using the length of the weapon and regularly he just... doesn't attack.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Yeah, melee clone really is that bad.

He doesn't have the speed boost they said he'd come with, he doesn't attack using the length of the weapon and regularly he just... doesn't attack.

Yeah, I'm literally just turning on Primal and then shooting instead so he keeps that.

Pretty sad but works for now I guess.

[HealingMind]

So, when I first saw Wukong's Dev Workshop, I was very interested, at least. I had not played Wukong before this point, so I don't really have a point of reference for how his kit was besides Defy being the only thing in his kit worth using. Now that I've had some time with him, I'd like to say that Wukong seems very good since his rework. Top-tier might be pushing it due to the competition being so damn STIFF, but Wukong is perfectly alright in -dare I say even EXCELS at- about any content you wanna do outside of special bosses and such.

The passive I saw a lot of complaints about, but I genuinely don't have much of a problem with. It definitely feels like it's there for the sake of people that miss "automatic immortality" Wukong, but the 3 mini-undyings with bonuses are alright, I guess. I'd say Mid-tier passive at best, would be nice to have a bit more to it, but it's not the worst thing in the world.

Celestial Twin was an ability I was both excited and kinda worried about. AI in this game tend to be on the dumber side, and any abilities relying on them tend to be very janky and not useful. (See: Nyx and anything about Revenant that isn't his 4 and 2.) While the clone tends to be dumb sometimes, I generally see this as a very welcome change (though, you could have given Wukong ANYTHING else, and it would have been better than the trashfire that his 1 was). The fact that it synergizes with your abilities, uses your weapons, and also gets really bulky really gives the clone a good use, even if it has a few kinks to (hopefully) iron out, mainly with him being at a higher elevation than enemies causing his AI to break.)

New Cloud Walker is probably my favorite movement ability in the entire game. VERY fast movement in any direction that's also cheap AND heals you/your clone makes it very versatile and fun to use. I had my doubts about the healing being really useful for his kit, but the regen while you're in there is very big, if not healing to full, getting pretty damn close. The only thing I have to complain about is the little bit of endlag you get after the duration expires. Not that it exists, it's fine so you can't LITERALLY spam 2 (though his 2 is pretty spammable still) but more that it stops all of your momentum at the end of the duration. it'd be nice to at least have cancelling it manually let you keep your momentum so you can time it just right and have it flow better with your regular movement options. Otherwise, very good ability.

New Defy, at first, I thought was gonna be horrible. Locks you into an animation where your character can't attack, and a swing based off the damage absorbed. This seemed like it was going to be an Absorb that gives you armor, which, since Absorb is not that great an ability by itself, did not give me high hopes for it other than being a janky self-buff. However, it surprised me with a VERY big damage multiplier, pretty solid range on the swing, and the fact that using it while the clone is active has the clone use it as well, and it combines the damage rather than pops off them individually. My only real gripe with this ability is that the armor value ALWAYS gets replaced when recasting it, meaning that unless you find another group of enemies that can help you hit the cap, it's not really worth recasting over CW for escapes, or Primal Fury if you just want a big boi swing. Otherwise, pretty solid of an ability.

Speaking of Primal Fury, this new moveset is some really weird stuff. even though I think it kills enemies fine, the new melee system seems like it might have some problems, which is fine for this being the prototype new phase.

Firstly, "forward + melee" in my opinion is really bad as a moveset. It's fine on Wukong's 4, because he gets a lot of range and the moves are good general sweeping moves, but for melee weapons that don't have good range, such as Sparring or daggers, I don't think it'll be that good due to those weapons basically needing to be pressed into the enemy, meaning those weapons will mostly be stuck with whatever that stance move is. The "mash e while neutral" stances is real good, especially the beginning twirl that generates so much combo and status . The block combo I don't see much use for other than fun factor (and E X P A N D memes) since Wukong has so many ways of dealing with crowds or not caring so much about them, including just smacking them with the staff regularly, and the damage is really slow. The "gap closer" move is just bad, there's so many better ways to do anything you'd want it to do, including other moves in the stance. There's interesting ideas here, though I think there are some really strange ones.

I can't believe how good and fun Wukong is now with near-complete ability synergy, and I appreciate all the work that went into making him so good. Looking forward to using him in the future.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

You know what would be nice. The ability to cancel Cloudwalker by casting Defy so you go from being a cloud straight into Defy.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

10 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Yeah, melee clone really is that bad.

He doesn't have the speed boost they said he'd come with, he doesn't attack using the length of the weapon and regularly he just... doesn't attack.

Actually I find it more obnoxious to have him using guns.  From me using him in the simulation room it seemed like he could use more melee weapon types effectively compared to guns. 

And targeting an enemy makes up for the damage loss for him only using the mash b combo for melees he's okay with imo. 

Outside bullet hose weapons aoe weapons and beams he seems really bad with guns. Though in most cases this is because he keeps backing up. 

[DeMonkey]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Outside bullet hose weapons aoe weapons and beams he seems really bad with guns. Though in most cases this is because he keeps backing up. 

Some guns certainly. With my AkLex Prime he spent more time reloading than shooting for example, but with my Sybaris or Zarr he can occasionally be quite effective.

I wouldn't say the melee clone is ever "quite effective". It'll get the occasional kill or two but that's it.

[seprent]

5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Some guns certainly. With my AkLex Prime he spent more time reloading than shooting for example, but with my Sybaris or Zarr he can occasionally be quite effective.

I wouldn't say the melee clone is ever "quite effective". It'll get the occasional kill or two but that's it.

if he behaves like umbra but more suicidal give him the supra vandal or a shot gun 

umbra doesnt reload the supra and the vandal is actually strangely effective crit or status and shotguns are a maybe if he runs at them them while shooting 

worse come to worse give them some absurd explosive weapon and hope for the best when YOUR using it 

[TheGodofWiFi]

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So you're saying 'I don't want it, therefore they should change it'?

No, I'm saying "It would harm no one to change it, and it would make the ability better, so why not do it."

That's a stronger argument than yours. You can say "It won't make it better for me" but it won't make it worse for you either. Fact.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But there's those key words; overwhelming majority. I don't see you having one of those.

A lot of people do want the Cloud Walker tweak, the same as how we want Defy's cap to be removed, because right now it is simply not as good as some other tank abilities in-game.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Greedy Mag enabled a whole mess of ridiculous content and that's the literal, documented reason for the nerf, you can check.

Yea, I know. Greedy Mag still was nerfed because it was efffective. Simple as that.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You didn't mention any.

I mentioned quite a lot. You just refuse to acknowledge them, predictably.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This argument tells me more about how you can't control it, and are projecting the idea that nobody else can, than about what you actually do with Cloud Walker.

You don't have as much control and strategic freedom with a five second duration, as you would do with a forty second or a draining ability. That's just a fact. It's more useful with a longer duration.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Again, no, not really.

And that's all that really matters at the end of the day. This isn't World on Fire, this is Cloud Walker. End of story.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This isn't even like the Vacuum change, which people wanted in the thousands, in the vocal majority of the player base

There was an equal or at least pretty sizeable group people who opposed the vacuum buff because wanting easier mechanics is apparantly a crime in the eyes of some. So the odds where 70/30.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Even weight of opinion isn't in your favour.

And you base this on what? The forums? A place that consists of the vocal minority? Have you actually been in game. You'll probably say yes and everyone is 100% satisified with the Wukong rework, but then again I encounter people who are not happy with some of the changes.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If you don't back up your points with anything more substantial than that you think DE was wrong to do this the way they have... you don't win.

Again, you are using incorrect logic. There was no substantial argument for the vacuum other than "I want it". You do win if no one else provides an adequate reason for it to not happen. That's how the real world works.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

To counter the reduced Duration they vastly increased the speed so that with the same amount of energy you could go the same distance that you went before

Yea, so they essentially made Cloud Walker bad in a different way. With the ridiculously short duration, you still only go the distance you originally would but faster. What a waste of potential. In a way you could say they haven't really improved the ability at all and just nailed this healing mechanic to it.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is complete and mathematical fallacy. Drain is not advantageous to any frame.

Oberon would like a word. So would Excalibur, Valkyr, Ivara and Equinox. Drain is a really good mechanic.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If Wukong can't be hit, he can't use Rage, and if he's in Cloud Walker he won't pick up energy either.

Maybe you should leave Cloud Walker to do all that? Again, you don't have to stay in for the long duration. Don't know why that revelation hasn't crossed your mind.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Cloud Walker, as mobility, should never be and shouldn't have ever been, a Drain.

That's your opinion. Mine is completely different. A long duration or a drain would be fine for Cloud Walker, there is no "fallacy" involved in my reasoning. People like to use that word without really knowing what it means.

You can continue to act like my argument has no merit (while directly ignoring a lot of my points and facts present in the game) but the fact is, your argument just does not hold up. If we were both standing in front of DE presenting our cases for Wukong, you would not win. A lot of the times arguments like yours are confidently written, but when verbally challenged they fall apart prety quickly. There is no doubt in my mind if we were having this conversation face-to-face, you would have backed out long ago.

All you've basically admitted in this post is that my reasoning is sound, but I apparantly lack the significant backing of numbers that the Vacuum buff had. Well, there are people who are dissatisfied with aspects of the rework, and just because the forums have more of a pro-Wukong rework opinion, doesn't mean you are the majority, don't forget, these forums barely encompass the playerbase as a whole. The majority of players don't know/care about the forums. Defy needs its armour cap removed and Cloud Wlaker needs a duration buff, those are the main tweaks suggested by people.

You still have no strong arguement. Instead of trying to "drop the mic" why don't you actually reply with something substantial and less pretentious.

12 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

But he can break cloudwalker to attack and it is not inconvenient. I think its good that it works this way so that it's different form other flyer frames.

Different does not mean it's as good or better. There is a reason why some frames are passed over in favour of others in the community for the simple reason of "Why would I use that when this frame can do it better?"

12 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

But I can control him properly in five seconds.

Not as much as you could with longer duration. And again, how exactly does this disqualify an arguement for a buff? If you can control him easily in five seconds then good for you. You could be rubbish at one frame that I'm really good with. Anecdotes are never a good backing for an argument.

Edited June 26, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

40 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Some guns certainly. With my AkLex Prime he spent more time reloading than shooting for example, but with my Sybaris or Zarr he can occasionally be quite effective.

I wouldn't say the melee clone is ever "quite effective". It'll get the occasional kill or two but that's it.

Huh. I don't have sybaris prime yet sadly. But I tried having him use my burston prime and it didn't seem to work out well.  And yeah zarr is dumb fun with him. 

 

I wouldn't say he's more effective as a melee guy. But I like him in melee specifically because he runs into them which draws enemies attention rather well. Plus he often ends up killing things behind me that I'm not paying attention to. 

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I wouldn't say he's more effective as a melee guy. But I like him in melee specifically because he runs into them which draws enemies attention rather well. Plus he often ends up killing things behind me that I'm not paying attention to. 

That is a decent benefit, as long as he doesn't teleport back.

Hopefully we get some changes to the leash and his usage of melee weapons to make this slightly more beneficial.