Amalgan Thread , Dicussion over Scott's Rework/Fan Rework Archive

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok so I’m the only one here who likes the idea of combining Vortex and Bastille. Got it.

Not the only one Gearbro, I also think it's a good idea.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok so I’m the only one here who likes the idea of combining Vortex and Bastille. Got it.

It's one of the more prevalent requests I've seen regarding Vauban for a long time now.

For my part, while I might love the idea of seeing them add fortifications and mortars as abilities to Vauban, I can only hope DE is listening to the Vauban mains opinions and taking cues from that input instead. 

[LSG501]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

They really didnt. Both were used for their crowd control, and there was rarely a reason to use vortex over Bastille. Bastille just did more. Also, the vortex augment was ass, dont fool yourself.

 

37 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

They were both "push button to make every guy around you very easy to shoot" abilities. Having one is good. Having two is redundant.

Clearly I used Vauban differently to you two then if you just used them both in the same way. 

Now I'm not saying they couldn't be improved but they did not need to be combined and just because one of you 'had the idea' doesn't mean it's a good idea or the right idea for a change.

 

Not that it's going to make any difference if players don't like the rework (which as shown in here is quite a few so far), it will be done how DE thinks we want it (or more accurate how Scott wants it), if we're lucky we might get a balance pass and then it will likely just be slung in the pile of reworks that are left 'unfinished' with the promise they'll come back later after feedback.....

Edited September 19, 2019 by LSG501

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

32 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Clearly I used Vauban differently to you two then if you just used them both in the same way. 

Now I'm not saying they couldn't be improved but they did not need to be combined and just because one of you 'had the idea' doesn't mean it's a good idea or the right idea for a change.

Maybe you should explain how the two abilities were different, how their applications were different, and why combining them into one ability that has both effects is a bad idea.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Whatever the change is, it needs to move with him.

[LSG501]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

Maybe you should explain how the two abilities were different, how their applications were different, and why combining them into one ability that has both effects is a bad idea.

You haven't explained how it's a good idea yet so....

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I mean, it could work OK, especially if they still don't fix Bastille's bug, it at least acts as a safety net so anyone who slips through Bastille still gets CC'd. the question is what is the other power going to be? as long as he has a decent mix of CC and Damage that allows him to scale better and have a role in teams again then I'm happy. he doesn't need to become a room nuker like Saryn, but he definitely needs more damage output on his kit than what he's got now. the Meta has totally shifted since the days of Trials, when Vauban was one of the most important cogs in the machine, so to speak.

I'm mostly going to hold onto my opinions until we get some proper Devstream footage, as by then the rework should be all mapped out and ready to deploy.

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by (PS4)robotwars7

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

8 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

You haven't explained how it's a good idea yet so....

Both abilities do the same thing: crowd-control in a wide radius that disables enemies and makes them easy to attack. Maybe Vortex could do damage but it was minimal and its real application was the crowd-control. Merging them together gives you the utility of both in a single cast, and frees up a slot for a new ability that would expand Vauban's kit and make him more fun, versatile, and/or effective in play; which is the point of a rework.

[Duality52]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Not the only one Gearbro, I also think it's a good idea.

Same here; lots of people didn't seen to notice that when Bastille gets converted into a Vortex, the duration of the ability resetted. That means the ability potentially lasts twice as long, but enemies won't get stalled from the outer range of Bastille.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Duality52

[Duality52]

3 hours ago, LSG501 said:

I'd rather keep bastille and vortex separate in all honesty

Think of Titania's Spellbind and Lantern; two abilities with floating CC but causes redundancy.

Bastille and Vortex are similar in that sense, with the only difference being usage of range and energy usage.

[schilds]

Vortex = clump enemies together so you can hit them simultaneously.

Bastille = prevent enemies from entering an area.

 

Are we going to end up with one ability that does neither well?

Edited September 20, 2019 by schilds

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

I like what is shown here.  It opens up a slot in his kit (huge deal, more abilities almost always means more powerful except when they're as bad a minelayer is currently.)  Depending on how the mods work with what is shown here it could be really good for him.  Looks like his 1 isn't going to suck anymore since tesla grenades right now are a meme.  The only fond memory I have of tesla grenades are completing a law of retribution raid by killing level 100 vay hek with just tesla grenades in a 7 vauban 1 trinity setup we did for funsies.  This new ability looks like it might actually be useful depending on what the rollers do I'm assuming they follow you and do some sort of cc and damage though.  

Bastille is just better then vortex right now the only point of vortex is to group up a ton of enemies to get a giant gas proc on all of them at once otherwise bastille is better in every way since it lasts longer, has more range, and cc's more enemies.  This change assuming it goes through like this since everything is subject to change makes bastille a fantastic damage and cc ability if you're smart and use it with a gas proc monster like vulkar wraith, -puncture opticor, etc. etc.

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

3 minutes ago, schilds said:

Vortex = clump enemies together so you can hit them simultaneously.

Bastille = prevent enemies from entering an area.

 

Are we going to end up with one ability that does neither well?

Bastille + Vortex = Prevent enemies from entering an area then clump them together so you can hit them simultaneously.

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, schilds said:

Vortex = clump enemies together so you can hit them simultaneously.

Bastille = prevent enemies from entering an area.

Are we going to end up with one ability that does neither well?

How about one ability that can do one, then the other at the end of it's duration for cleanup purposes?

[schilds]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

Bastille + Vortex = Prevent enemies from entering an area then clump them together so you can hit them simultaneously.

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

How about one ability that can do one, then the other at the end of it's duration for cleanup purposes?

 

Sure, and what range will this new ability have? Ask yourself why the current Vortex doesn't have the range of the current Bastille.

 

How long does the Bastille part last? This game moves fast. Vortex is for killing (cleanup? surely you're joking), and now you'll have to wait? 

 

Or is this a player controlled transition with yet another "hold to toggle"? Ugh ....

 

 

Vauban has TWO useless abilities. Why do they need to free up a spare skill in the first place. How about fixing those two first ...

Edited September 20, 2019 by schilds

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

7 minutes ago, schilds said:

Vauban has TWO useless abilities. Why do they need to free up a spare skill in the first place. How about fixing those two first ...

How about they fix those two, and also free up an ability slot for something new and useful?

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, schilds said:

 

Sure, and what range will this new ability have? Ask yourself why the current Vortex doesn't have the range of the current Bastille.

How long does the Bastille part last? This game moves fast. Vortex is for killing (cleanup? surely you're joking), and now you'll have to wait? 

Or is this a player controlled transition with yet another "hold to toggle"? Ugh ....

Simple answers for all three in order, from a design theory of an outsider.

1: Roughly the current range of Bastille, effected by range mods in the same fashion as Bastille currently is. Vortex range shrinks down slowly to the average Vortex size.

2: Same rough time as Bastille could last before, with the final 3-5ish seconds being the crunch in.

3: Reactivating the move will force the Vortex part to come out faster at a cost of the remaining duration being cut down to the 3-5 seconds, maybe with a 10 second max depending on remaining duration.

It isn't that hard to design two on/off abilities into one double-action one, it also saves an ability space and conserves energy by making only one of the two needed.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Aldain

[schilds]

22 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Simple answers for all three in order, from a design theory of an outsider.

1: Roughly the current range of Bastille, effected by range mods in the same fashion as Bastille currently is.

2: Same rough time as Bastille could last before, with the final 3-5ish seconds being the crunch in.

3: Reactivating the move will force the Vortex part to come out faster at a cost of the remaining duration being cut down to the 3-5 seconds, maybe with a 10 second max depending on remaining duration.

It isn't that hard to design two on/off abilities into one double-action one, it also saves an ability space and conserves energy by making only one of the two needed.

So:

1. Well a vortex with the range of the current Bastille would be great. I sincerely hope that happens. I doubt it will. Again, ask yourself why the devs didn't give the current Vortex the range of the current Bastille. 

2. Oh great, so I have to wait to clump enemies together. Sigh ...

3. Ok, so how do you lock down multiple areas like you can right now? Does this toggle work at whatever bastillex you're pointing at?

 

Of course isn't not hard to design one. It's hard to design one that works well in a fast paced game like this and isn't clumsy.

Edited September 20, 2019 by schilds

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Simple answers for all three in order, from a design theory of an outsider.

1: Roughly the current range of Bastille, effected by range mods in the same fashion as Bastille currently is. Vortex range shrinks down slowly to the average Vortex size.

2: Same rough time as Bastille could last before, with the final 3-5ish seconds being the crunch in.

3: Reactivating the move will force the Vortex part to come out faster at a cost of the remaining duration being cut down to the 3-5 seconds, maybe with a 10 second max depending on remaining duration.

It isn't that hard to design two on/off abilities into one double-action one, it also saves an ability space and conserves energy by making only one of the two needed.

Looking at the second Twitter post in the OP, it does appear that Bastille (which is now his 4) starts with a duration of 18 seconds, but when the Vortex activates after only around 7 seconds, the duration is reset to 18 seconds again. It looks like recasting or holding the key for Bastille will turn it into Vortex, resetting the duration, so you really are stacking them together. It'll probably cost additional energy, hopefully less than what it would cost to cast Bastille and Vortex simultaneously right now as separate abilities. Though this is obviously beta footage so we can't assume that what we see right now will definitely be the final product.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, schilds said:

So:

1. Well a vortex with the range of the current Bastille would be great. I sincerely hope that happens. I doubt it will. Again, ask yourself why the devs didn't give the current Vortex doesn't have the range of the current Bastille. 

2. Oh great, so I have to wait to clump enemies together. Sigh ...

3. Ok, so how do you lock down multiple areas like you can right now? Does this toggle work at whatever bastillex you're pointing at?

Of course isn't not hard to design one. It's hard to design one that works well in a fast paced game like this and isn't clumsy.

Responses.

1: Bastille as it currently has the current range of Bastille which is already huge, which is why many players use it INSTEAD of Vortex, especially with the Repelling augment, it serves as area denial.

2 See point 3. Reactivation crunches the enemies in prematurely with a slowly shrinking Vortex pull in, allowing it to

3: You can't have multiple Bastille instances out now, and as you've stated Vortex doesn't have the range that Bastille has so Current Vortex isn't locking anything down except maybe a doorway. For multi-area lockdown just a Max range Repelling Bastille was the go-to and the huge range of the new Bastille can trap and immobilize incoming invaders AND draw them together at the end of the ability for cleanup, activating it before the duration is done will draw in enemies with no regard to the Bastille "Hover" cap behaving similar to current Vortex.

It seems more clunky to me to keep two abilities that both do CC on the off chance that for some reason you'd need to clump enemies together when Bastille's area denial usually works just as well thanks to its normal duration.

[MunsuLight]

Il y a 4 heures, LSG501 a dit :

I'd rather keep bastille and vortex separate in all honesty... especially seeing as that's now going to affect the two augments which actually worked pretty well on vauban...

I've always seen batille and vortex as complimentary cc abilities rather than one you'd merge into one...

Mind you I'm not expecting much from this rework, I'm sorry to say but imo Scott hasn't had a great record when it comes to reworks. 

Cough Ember Cough is the worst offender in the bunch

But i just hope it is gonna be a press for bastille Hold for Vortex and that we would have control over which bastille  we want to put into vortex

[NekroArts]

I'm gonna be honest, why even bother with the Bastille part if the end result is going to be Vortex? Like, both (as it is right now) will incapacitate the enemies upon entering it's range, the only real difference is that Bastille has a higher base range than Vortex. So assuming in the twitter post both Bastille and Vortex part shares the same range (with no changing in range upon switching), why have them both into one ability instead of choosing one of them and delete/change the other?

Edited September 20, 2019 by NekroArts

[schilds]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

ou can't have multiple Bastille instances out now

You can have 4.

 

Ok, how many of you actually play Vauban? Or are we all theorycrafting from the point of view of people who don't?

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

People just like to jump to conclusions based on a video.  If they outlined the changes in writing and they said horrible things in said writing, then you can go all doom and gloom on vauban but all we can do based on the videos is see that tesla grenades are likely gone in favor of roller balls that maybe follow you around and do...something?  As well as bastille and vortex being combined somehow but we aren't sure in what way and we don't know if with the new combination you can throw out multiple bastilles or not as well as duration being a real question mark as well and how it will work.  

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

1 minute ago, NekroArts said:

I'm gonna be honest, why even bother with the Bastille part if the end result is going to be Vortex? Like, both (as it is right now) will incapacitate the enemies upon entering it's range, the only real difference is that Bastille has a higher base range than Vortex. So assuming in the twitter post both Bastille and Vortex part shares the same range (with no changing in range upon switching), why have them both into one ability instead of choosing between 1 and delete/change the other?

I can't think of a strong reason why they both needed to be kept, but I also can't think of a reason why one of them should be removed completely instead of just merging them together as shown. The Bastille/Vortex merge is a non-issue if you ask me, you get the best of both worlds as far as I can tell; you can suspend the enemies to take out individually, or group them together for AoE attacks, leave it up to player preference to use which one they want. I'm more concerned with what his new 3 will be and if Tesla and Minelayer will be reworked into genuinely useful abilities.