Amalgan Thread , Dicussion over Scott's Rework/Fan Rework Archive

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

5 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

He did, but I don't see any other powers REPLACING the kit, he still has his useless 1st 2nd and 4th power. If he turely did watch it, Vauban won't just have one "single new power"

 

Anything else you'll like to add?

You don't know if the change to his 1st power means it's still useless, you don't know what the changes to his 2nd are at all, and his 4th power is his two actually useful abilities combined into one useful ability. I don't think your proposed rework really sounds all that better except the seeker grenades which now appear to be Vauban's 1. I love the idea of Vauban sending out his own seekers, especially if they CC the enemy with electric attacks and also distract enemies by drawing fire towards themselves and away from Vauban and his team.

My only concern currently is Minelayer, because Bounce and Tripwire are worthless and Concuss and Shred have some utility but are not much better. If I could replace it, I'd replace it with small sentry drones that Vauban could deploy on floors, walls, and ceilings that would do decent (but not great) DPS, distract enemies by drawing fire, and explode violently on death for Blast damage and procs, possibly with Shred/Concuss's effects merged into them, I honestly don't know what to do with those mines if anything. I don't think deploying sentries to do all of Vauban's DPS for him is a good idea, I love sentry guns but I don't want a TF2 Engineer in Warframe; but using sentries and seekers as fire support and distractions (especially since he now has an "artillery strike") sounds more fitting for the "tactical" kind of play that Vauban is (supposed to) embody. Keeping enemies disoriented and disabled and open to attack all over the map sounds exactly like the kind of thing Vauban should be good at, from my perspective.

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

On 2019-09-19 at 4:03 PM, LSG501 said:

I'd rather keep bastille and vortex separate in all honesty... especially seeing as that's now going to affect the two augments which actually worked pretty well on vauban...

I've always seen batille and vortex as complimentary cc abilities rather than one you'd merge into one...

Mind you I'm not expecting much from this rework, I'm sorry to say but imo Scott hasn't had a great record when it comes to reworks. 

um nezha - wukong

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Tomplexthis said:

um nezha - wukong

I think those were Pablo's work, not Scott's.

[LSG501]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Tomplexthis said:

um nezha - wukong

nezha was definitely pablo and I think wukong was as well, not that I actually like the wukong rework but that's a different matter.

Edited September 21, 2019 by LSG501

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2019-09-20 at 11:12 AM, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Are you saying something like Ivara...with her quiver on one power with switching back and forth? I'm saying it's now one power where it used to be two that does both at once...You get the flame shield with the health aura at once on one swipe or press and now you have another power say on his 3 open for De to come up with something else...

Ok but with his 4 BECOME THE DRAGON THAT FLIES...not ride the reptile 😑.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

19 hours ago, Gruiz said:

Yeah, Hello!

Gruiz, the biggest issue with all these reworks is that they often only marginally address the static, slow nature in which their powers are used within a newer, fluid, always-moving-and-always-killing modern Tennoverse.

A classic case study is reworked NYX slowly  “mind controlling” a single enemy and then pumping it full of lead to make it “more powerful” in a fast-paced looter shooter with ever-spawning mobs.

Combining 3+4 is great, but Vauban needs to be a “has powers, will travel” aspect.

The only other way the old-guard kits work is if they further diversify mission types like Mobile Defense, Interception, and Defense to add value to the Warframe Powers designed to guard a static checkpoint.

TY for reading!

 

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[General_Durandal]

Don't mess this up DE.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

He juggles balls. How are you not on board for that?

[AdunSaveMe]

You know, we could actually try using it first. 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

He juggles balls. How are you not on board for that?

^^^

on a serious note, i disagree with Op. we've only seen 3 of the abilities so far, and of those, one is completely new, one might as well be new with how it works, and one takes the two components people said was at least ok and combined them to allow for a whole new ability. They seem to know what is wrong with his kit at current, and from what we know (obviously numbers and stats can change this) he seems to be already better

[xXDeadsinxX]

Well it’s a work in progress at the current moment so what would you expect?

We’re gonna have to wait and see until it’s in our hands to fully judge his new kit.

[990k]

So are we gonna ignore how there is an Infinity symbol when Vauban is in his Bastille. which was shown in the videos? 

[PsiWarp]

2/3rds of the clips don't even show how the powers interact with enemies...

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

Even the WIP clips shown so far look like improvements on what we have now. I'm not expecting Vauban to become fantastic, but I do expect him to become more fun to play, at the very least. It's not like he can get worse.

[Xyngrr]

The rollers look neat, no idea what they will actually do so that's about all there is to say on it.

Minelayer - we have no info on what's happening with it, so again all we have is that many people ( even some staunch Vauban users ) use it differently and have vastly different opinions on what is good and bad within it. I use tripwires, concuss and shred regularly, but only rarely use bounce if at all. One of the real problems with it is the number of taps to get to the flavour of mine you want before you then have to hold it to actually do something. Unless the situation is hard CC already or you have luckily guessed right ahead of time the next engagement requires a certain mine, by the time you've setup for it the opportunity has often passed to maximuze potential return. Inverting tap/hold scheme is a bandaid but still does not address the pervasive and accelerating frontloading of more control layer lag onto the game.
( Editorial - We can feel you sludging up our controls with animation script branches. Stop it. )

Bastille/Vortex - both useful skills, and the buff to vortex range as well as conversion are nice. Unfortunately, it adds another instance of tap/hold aim/hold ( I'm assuming it will use the same mechanics as Wisps breach surge and require you to aim at the desired bastille to convert ). In either case another instance of input control mire of differing degrees being inserted, which is bad. Combining the skills looks like it can work, but overloading the controls will quickly defeat the actual application of the skill.

Orbital strike - Neat. how it synergizes both with his passive and with enemies under the influence of his and other CC will be key to it being a glittering upgrade or a shattered dream.

Speaking of which, after the torrent of 'change everything about vauban' posts from people that don't actually play him, I'd largely accepted he'd be retiring his 'tactical' theme in favour of more boom and schwing. So far, it's a mixed change based on the info we have, but it is looking like he'll lose all finesse to a button mashing frenzy which is sad.

[Gruiz]

24 minutes ago, Xyngrr said:

about vauban' posts from people that don't actually play him,

Thank you

[Circle_of_Psi]

10 hours ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

-snip-

That's true, I dont' really want turrets or so, due to they are un-moveing and only good for one thing, same goes for TF2 Engi, all depends on play-style

 

But yes, perhaps waiting until Scott fully shows the complete rework before hammering the nail into the coffin maybe for the best and as for my own "rework" alot of players just want either an exalted pet/weapon or powers that remove Tesla and Minelayer (the other two are still useful in key missions). Vortex IIRC can still do some decent damage if not provide a choke-point. So we'll have to see what they look like mixed together, although I do recall Bastille (as of right now) being broken?, as it can't hold much mobs or something?, I do remaber people reporting on that, but I can't recall where.

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, Xyngrr said:

Speaking of which, after the torrent of 'change everything about vauban' posts from people that don't actually play him,

2 hours ago, Gruiz said:

Thank you

Alright, I'm a bit baffled here, alot of people use this argument that "oh this player clearly never played this frame" But my qeastion is, WHY do people assume this?, is it an reflex?, an sudden urge to try be the "I am right" feeling?, I'm asking cuz I've always seen this thing pop up everywhere and I'ts generally confused why people use this as a tool to try and win an argument.

Cuz all in all it don't make sense, of course "X player" has played Vauban, if they didn't, why whuold people post feedback about him? it makes no sense at all, it's like posting feedback on Chroma, (PS4)FriendSharkey posted the image of a reworked Chroma, do we assume he's not touched Chroma or played him?.

[schilds]

27 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Cuz all in all it don't make sense, of course "X player" has played Vauban, if they didn't, why whuold people post feedback about him?

You're right that it doesn't make sense, but sometimes the most vocal people are people who have never played a frame. Go read some of the threads on Gauss in the feedback forum.

 

However, that's not what the person you quoted said. They said "don't play", not "has never played". 

 

While it may sometimes be a put-down or ego talking, it may just be that it's obvious to a player who has had more experience with a specific frame that the person they're speaking to has less experience. For example, if someone tells me that Vauban can only have one instance of Bastille out, my immediate reaction will be to wonder whether they've played Vauban. I will have a similar reaction if someone tells me that Vortex and Bastille are "the same". They serve and are used for different purposes. They're only the same superficially, and a person claiming they're the same is indicating that their understanding of Vauban is superficial.

Edited September 22, 2019 by schilds

[Xyngrr]

@schilds has hit the nail on the head.

A while ago I had a convo with another Vauban user, chatting about how we play him and at one point we seemed to both be questioning if either actually did and checked mutual stats. It's a mark of how differently a single frame can be played that our styles were largely opaque to each other for about 20 minutes, while we both had literally hundreds of hours in Vauban. It underscored that there are indeed wildly different ways to play every frame, and varying degrees of success with them in different situations. We both came away with improved perspectives and ideas, though they too were divergent it was still quite productive.
I also understand that not every frame will be to everyones liking, and that's fine as we have 40+ to choose from. Vauban is one I like.

The context of that comment is that one user who likes many elements of the frame as it is and has actually been using it is ambivalently cynical about the WIP state of a rework awash in a frenzied sea of opinions, many from others just jumping on the latest bandwagon because they can and not because it affects a thing they use and enjoy frequently. Having watched a few months of feedback after suggestion after GD topic from folks that outright admit they have only played Vauban to 30 ( and might play him more if their concept to completely change him is implemented! ) has worn pretty thin, I'll admit.

 

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, schilds said:

They said "don't play", not "has never played". 

3 hours ago, schilds said:

While it may sometimes be a put-down or ego talking, it may just be that it's obvious to a player who has had more experience with a specific frame that the person they're speaking to has less experience. For example, if someone tells me that Vauban can only have one instance of Bastille out, my immediate reaction will be to wonder whether they've played Vauban. I will have a similar reaction if someone tells me that Vortex and Bastille are "the same". They serve and are used for different purposes. They're only the same superficially, and a person claiming they're the same is indicating that their understanding of Vauban is superficial.

Touch'e.

Most of it, is just "be a put-down or ego talking" 90% of the time, as it's quite rude to assume that a player has not done "X" but welcome to the forums I guess, ah I should of kown better, of course some people its clearly obvious but there are plenty of ways to prove a "X you are targeting" has or has not played "X Frame". Just because someone don't play "X Frame" all the time, don't mean heck here, Not everyone is a Vauban/Rahetalius fan boy/girl.

Its plain and simple, they players have played him, they damm right know that an other frame can do way better, so why pick the weaker frame?, DE whuold not rework him, if the comminty think that "x players don't play him, so clearly he/she is wrong and I am right", it just makes you look like a gate-keeper or worse. 

But I do see your point, something as obvious such as " Vauban can only have one instance of Bastille out" but thus so far, I've not seen a single comment, saying you are unable to "X with this frame". besides what is has been proven by the comminty, as I haven't seen a Vauban Player. HOWEVER this can be the other way around as well, as no one is playing him "as of right now" so clearly it means they have no idea what they are talking about right?, or does that not make sense to you?.

I get it, having a frame that you love and main, seeing walked all over on, is hurtful and down right disrespectful in that persons eyes, but acting out in such a way, don't do any favors for you. it just makes you look like, as said a Gate Keeper or White Knight.

Vortex, by far is the best power Vauban has, removing it, won't be the end of the world, for sure, but keeping it won't be either, people, like myself, just want to see Vauban as a new frame itself, old powers either removed or drastically changed, take a look at Ember or Wukong, alot of people said Wukong was useless and had no powers and the same Monky God (I forgot his name, I'm sorry) was putting everyone down ,saying he still has useful kits and that was "Press to not die".

What about Ember?, any Ember mains think shes perfect the way she is, or don't want any of powers changed, just tweaked a bit, like "Charge up to blast fireball?" 

 

But hey, that's what the Forms are about right?

1 hour ago, Xyngrr said:

@schilds has hit the nail on the head.

A while ago I had a convo with another Vauban user, chatting about how we play him and at one point we seemed to both be questioning if either actually did and checked mutual stats. It's a mark of how differently a single frame can be played that our styles were largely opaque to each other for about 20 minutes, while we both had literally hundreds of hours in Vauban. It underscored that there are indeed wildly different ways to play every frame, and varying degrees of success with them in different situations. We both came away with improved perspectives and ideas, though they too were divergent it was still quite productive.
I also understand that not every frame will be to everyones liking, and that's fine as we have 40+ to choose from. Vauban is one I like.

The context of that comment is that one user who likes many elements of the frame as it is and has actually been using it is ambivalently cynical about the WIP state of a rework awash in a frenzied sea of opinions, many from others just jumping on the latest bandwagon because they can and not because it affects a thing they use and enjoy frequently. Having watched a few months of feedback after suggestion after GD topic from folks that outright admit they have only played Vauban to 30 ( and might play him more if their concept to completely change him is implemented! ) has worn pretty thin, I'll admit.

I have to agree with this, what I was trying to point out, but I SUCK at explaining 

Vauban in my own armory has 5 Froma, I used to main him ALOT, until other frames just where clearly better and that's not really the Warframes Fault, it's just Damage over CC has just won by a long shot. yes, it is true I've stopped useing him, but the clear answer to that qeastion is: Other Frames Are Better.  

 

Look, what DE do to Vauban is up to them, not us, we can share and give our own feedback and if anything we MIGHT get some of it added. If Vauban doesn't deliver as players expect, he goes back to the shelf and DE will either leave him in the state he's in or go back to drawing board. Same thing happened to every other frame. 

 

Also, I've been watching too much BL3 and each time I see Vauban I keep thinking Vaughan 

[Circle_of_Psi]

I just realized, Vauban has pretty nice Augments for his 4th and 3rd, wonder how they'll be combined? 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Imho, Bastille/Vortex makes more sense to stay as a Power 3 and Orbital Strike would be the new ultimate. Players are more accustomed to have Bastille be used as a Power 3, and as a Power 3 will have the option of being cast cost of 75 or lower (50 would be the ideal). Orbital Strike doesn’t look like an ideal that you cast very often, has a large visual and aesthetic impact, and would seem to be a higher cast cost if it deals a significant amount of damage if there’s continued work for it.

Another thing I want to address is the removal of Bounce nades. Bounce nades at this point is a dead meme from the days of Exclaibur’s Super Jump and Tonkor’s grenade jump. It’s removal would mean that Teslas can be slotted into Minelayer where Bounce nades were and would open up another ability slot. Food for thought. 

I’m going to see if this discussion can be pushed into the Warframes Feedback topic, it would be a shame that it were left in General Discussions where feedback isn’t typically read by the DEvs.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

1 hour ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

I just realized, Vauban has pretty nice Augments for his 4th and 3rd, wonder how they'll be combined? 

I think his bastille augment should be removed and just uncap bastille tbh. It has such a weird set of scalings (duration and range are obvious, but it also scales the enemies you pick up based in strength, which isnt high priority in many builds) kinda forcing you to use the augment. As for vortex, i honestly dont get the purpose of its augment. It lets you increase the duration by 70% of its max for each vortex...but if you just dont use the augment you increase the duration by 100% for each one you throw. Id be fine with vortex augment being more interesting, hell, even making it pilfering vortex could be viable, “all enemies killed while under vortex effects have a 70% chance to drop more loot.”  

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

I think his bastille augment should be removed and just uncap bastille tbh. It has such a weird set of scalings (duration and range are obvious, but it also scales the enemies you pick up based in strength, which isnt high priority in many builds) kinda forcing you to use the augment. As for vortex, i honestly dont get the purpose of its augment. It lets you increase the duration by 70% of its max for each vortex...but if you just dont use the augment you increase the duration by 100% for each one you throw. Id be fine with vortex augment being more interesting, hell, even making it pilfering vortex could be viable, “all enemies killed while under vortex effects have a 70% chance to drop more loot.”  

With how Vauban’s kit is making use of Orbital Strike, Power Strength is a potential build case for him. Of course it would need a modifier to make it deal decent damage, such as x amount of enemies incapacitated in Bastille/Vortex, but what is shown in these latest videos is that Vauban’s going to be using Power Strength to some extent.

Power Strength tied to Bastille was fine from my playtesting of it, but I wouldn’t mind uncapping or loosening the cap for how many enemies can be held in Bastille. The point of capping Bastille’s hold based on Power Strength was for Repelling Bastille to push enemies away.

From my understanding, Repelling Bastille would still be a usable augment even after the rework. However it would offset the “inclusion” concept that goes with Bastille going into Vortex. Some theorycrafting in how to rework the augment may need to be considered by Scott.

As for the Vortex augment, I doubt it needs any attention and should be deleted. Vortex was a high cast cost ability and recasting drained energy so much for whatever little effect it was supposed to do. On personal level I neglected it, but there might be an edge-case scenario where this augment was useful for Vauban mains back in the day.

Edited September 22, 2019 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23