Can something be done about Saryn?

[WoodedSkate89]

7 hours ago, zhellon said:

I use vazarin. Don't play with zenuric.

Look, I put 2 mod and increase my efficiency by almost 3 times. And I'm still not making much of an effort.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

@ramious23He's got you here

[AkyFenrir]

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

Have you considered that maybe the nuke players might be the ones focused on getting all the kills? They certainly do seem to like doing that. 

Tangents aside-

Call it a power fantasy all you want, but Warframe is a co-op game.

This is in no way cooperative.

That's the problem. Nuking the entire map is not working with your team. At its best it can be annoying and at its worst its downright selfish. 

It's about being allowed to participate and contribute to the team.

That's the problem.

I really don't know how it can be made much clearer.

I can't talk about everyone, as far as i'm concerned i'm looking for efficiency, i'm most of the time not playing the nuker, i'd rather go on trinity/rhino/nova to makes things go faster, that's how i manage to contribute. I expect to see nukers in defense mission, by going support i know i'll be able to contribute. I'm doing ESO on premade to maximize efficiency anyway. 

And if i puck a nuker it's to make a mission i don't like done quicker, and i'll get much more by being in a full team than solo.

So there are ways to contribute and make the mission faster, if you don't pick a support, that's on you i'm afraid.

 

Everytime i see a post about saryn it's always "i can't do a thing". Things can be done... Willing to nerf a warframe because you don't want to play support is a bad thing imo.

[Sahansral]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb chaotea:

I can understand the fustration in this for you as a new player. However theres something to be understood here.

The problem isnt sayrn. The problem is high level players with high level mods on lower level missions. Theres at least 5 frames that can do what your concerned about better that sayrn.

I suppose the issue is more that warframe is basically runs on a open MMO RPG system. At some point a player becomes so OP they trivulise the early game, yet are not prevented from playing in the same waters as new players.

I disagree, this has nothing to do with power disparity between veterans and new players.

Saryn has huge scaling(!) damage potential, a big range, she circumvents armor (which is a big one), she halves enemy HP for the whole team and is also quite tanky.

That alone is way more most damage frames can hope for.

No LOS requirement for spores on top of that shifts her in a terrain where here map clearing affects others players fun.

There's no reason for her to be in this game in her current implementation when there are frames who have to run around corners,parkour through maps to reach the enemies - without any real payback for the effort.

We have frames like Harrow that rely on aiming and hitting certain parts of the hitboxes to work optimally.  In the time a harrow needs to find a target, Saryn already has melted most enemies, forced them in erratic hitrecovery animations or generally painted the whole map with visual noise that makes it impossible to see anyhting zoomed in. It's a clash of game designs.  

Sorry, I've yet so see an arguement that convinces me why of all frames Saryn should have LOS-ignoring damage. Those discussions remind of those before the nerfs of Ash, Mesa, Excalibur and Ember.

[Sahansral]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb AkyFenrir:

Willing to nerf a warframe because you don't want to play support is a bad thing imo.

Be careful, that sounds alot like "Accept my frame-choice, choose yours accordingly and be satisfied with playing support, plebs."

Also, accepting imbalance at the expense of others just because it helps reducing grind time is not what I would call desirable.

 

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 42 minutes, AkyFenrir a dit :

I can't talk about everyone, as far as i'm concerned i'm looking for efficiency, i'm most of the time not playing the nuker, i'd rather go on trinity/rhino/nova to makes things go faster,

 

il y a 12 minutes, Sahansral a dit :

Be careful, that sounds alot like "Accept my frame-choice, choose yours accordingly and be satisfied with playing support, plebs."

Also, accepting imbalance at the expense of others just because it helps reducing grind time is not what I would call desirable.

 

It's funny how doing specific out of context quoting can help your cause right?

I can return your argument too, wanting to nerf a warframe is one "accept my warframe gameplay, choose yours accordingly and be satisfied without Saryn, plebs"

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

49 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Everytime i see a post about saryn it's always "i can't do a thing". Things can be done... Willing to nerf a warframe because you don't want to play support is a bad thing imo.

No one should have to play support but go off. 

Support characters are useful, but players shouldn't have to play a cartain kind of frame to feel like they're making a contribution. 

6 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

It's funny how doing specific out of context quoting can help your cause right?

I can return your argument too, wanting to nerf a warframe is one "accept my warframe gameplay, choose yours accordingly and be satisfied without Saryn, plebs"

It really wasn't taken out of context. 

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Willing to nerf a warframe because you don't want to play support is a bad thing imo.

Saryn and Mesa (among others) don't even need support frames though, they don't even need anything but themselves.

Support frames aren't needed BECAUSE of the power balance issues, nevermind the endless energy economy that we have now, Harrow is outperformed by Operators and Energy Pizzas. Damage buff frames only stack more damage on top of already overkill damage and defensive frames are only needed in Defense missions when the point is reached that a stray bullet one-shots the defense target. Then there's Vauban, who has never been more useless because dead enemies are better than CC'd enemies.

There is slowly becoming no place for any frame that can't wipe a tileset every 5 seconds by itself, sure the frames can exist and be played, but why bother when the power gap is so large that playing anything else is deemed "inefficient" and shoved to the wayside.

That being said I will play my Excalibur until Warframe's servers go down no matter how "inefficient" it gets.

[AkyFenrir]

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

It really wasn't taken out of context. 

Yes sure, removing the part where i say i'm a support player to accuse me i'm forcing people to play support so i could play a nuker isn't out of context. If you don't understand the world "context" there's nothing i can do sorry.

il y a 3 minutes, Aldain a dit :

Saryn and Mesa (among others) don't even need support frames though, they don't even need anything but themselves.

Support frames aren't needed BECAUSE of the power balance issues, nevermind the endless energy economy that we have now, Harrow is outperformed by Operators and Energy Pizzas. Damage buff frames only stack more damage on top of already overkill damage and defensive frames are only needed in Defense missions when the point is reached that a stray bullet one-shots the defense target. Then there's Vauban, who has never been more useless because dead enemies are better than CC'd enemies.

There is slowly becoming no place for any frame that can't wipe a tileset every 5 seconds by itself, sure the frames can exist and be played, but why bother when the power gap is so large that playing anything else is deemed "inefficient" and shoved to the wayside.

That being said I will play my Excalibur until Warframe's servers go down no matter how "inefficient" it gets.

We had endless energy before with Ev trinity ... she still does it for ESO. Don't see the problem with damaging buff frames they're useful. Defensive frames are usefull in endless missions not only defense, if you think so you've a misunderstanding of warframe game modes. Vauban is useless because they made Limbo, and limbo is very usefull against every ennemies, vauban was only good against infested. I would point out, talking about a warframe needing a buff isn't an argument for a warframe nerf! 

Nerfing nukers to the ground would have a Impact on the player base, you seem to believe it would be a positive one, I think it would be a bad one. Point is none of us got info about this. 

Ember used to be the previous Saryn,  not seen  a single ember in any game mode in the past year ! That's what nerfing a single nuker does, that's what nerfing saryn would do. 

Nerfing isn't a solution, it would destroy the current balance that would need a full rework making warframe a different game.

 

I don't want that. I'm not complaining about any game difficulty because it's a game identity. 

[Aldain]

Just now, AkyFenrir said:

it would destroy the current balance

There isn't any balance right now, it is just all dps.

[DatDarkOne]

44 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Ember used to be the previous Saryn,  not seen  a single ember in any game mode in the past year ! That's what nerfing a single nuker does, that's what nerfing saryn would do. 

Nerfing isn't a solution, it would destroy the current balance that would need a full rework making warframe a different game.

 

I don't want that. I'm not complaining about any game difficulty because it's a game identity. 

Here's the interesting thing about that.  Before Ember was nerfed, most of us who knew better had said in all the Nerf Ember topics that players would just move to Saryn if/when Ember got nerfed.  

Post Nerf:  Look what happened just as we said it would.  

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed.  Why, because there will always be some players that will be salty of another frame for whatever reason.  

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 4 minutes, DatDarkOne a dit :

Here's the interesting thing about that.  Before Ember was nerfed, most of us who knew better had said in all the Nerf Ember topics that players would just move to Saryn if/when Ember got nerfed.  

Post Nerf:  Look what happened just as we said it would.  

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed.  Why, because there will always be some players that will be salty of another frame for whatever reason.  

Would be funny (sad? hmm) to see people complain they've to have a trinity in every game because since there's no nuker to clear stuff they've to take all damage upfront. And without a trin they can't survive. Either asking for a nerf so that they're not mandatory anymore, or a dps frames buff ? Since at that point invulnerable warframes would be nerfed too anyway.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's the interesting thing about that.  Before Ember was nerfed, most of us who knew better had said in all the Nerf Ember topics that players would just move to Saryn if/when Ember got nerfed.  

Post Nerf:  Look what happened just as we said it would.  

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed.  Why, because there will always be some players that will be salty of another frame for whatever reason.  

Ember should have been reworked instead.  I still can't wrap my head around nerfing a frame that could only wipe low level targets….

[AkyFenrir]

à l’instant, (XB1)Thy Divinity a dit :

Ember should have been reworked instead.  I still can't wrap my head around nerfing a frame that could only wipe low level targets….

For the exact same reason people want to nerf saryn, and every other nuker one by one after her... "we can't contribute, we can't shoot stuff". Because somehow, when you say they can play support frame you "force a frame upon them" (because asking a nerf is not forcing something upon those frame players right?).

The fact it killed low level was exactly why it was nerfed. If ember was only good after 100+ she would have stayed untouched. (even if that content was trivialized by her presence)

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Ember should have been reworked instead.  I still can't wrap my head around nerfing a frame that could only wipe low level targets….

It was a knee-jerk reaction Nerf to all the whining that was being posted in the forums about Ember.  

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Saryn and Mesa (among others) don't even need support frames though, they don't even need anything but themselves.

Support frames aren't needed BECAUSE of the power balance issues, nevermind the endless energy economy that we have now, Harrow is outperformed by Operators and Energy Pizzas. Damage buff frames only stack more damage on top of already overkill damage and defensive frames are only needed in Defense missions when the point is reached that a stray bullet one-shots the defense target. Then there's Vauban, who has never been more useless because dead enemies are better than CC'd enemies.

There is slowly becoming no place for any frame that can't wipe a tileset every 5 seconds by itself, sure the frames can exist and be played, but why bother when the power gap is so large that playing anything else is deemed "inefficient" and shoved to the wayside.

That being said I will play my Excalibur until Warframe's servers go down no matter how "inefficient" it gets.

This. All of this. 

This is the problem. You really cannot pretend that this huge gap is nothing.

2 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Nerfing nukers to the ground would have a Impact on the player base, you seem to believe it would be a positive one, I think it would be a bad one. Point is none of us got info about this. 

Ember used to be the previous Saryn,  not seen  a single ember in any game mode in the past year ! That's what nerfing a single nuker does, that's what nerfing saryn would do. 

They don't need to nerf her into the ground, and no one said they did. Nukes, especially Saryn are an outlier in terms of power. They need to be reasonably in line with other Warframes. 

Yes, some Warframes are allowed to be objectively better. But that difference shouldn't be this rediculous. 

If nerfing a single nuker won't help, being them all into line. As I said, we don't have to nerf them into the ground. We just have to make them more cooperative. 

Yes, it's awful what happened with Ember. I can sympathize with a playstyle being toned down (or in her case, stomped into the ground.) No one likes nerfs. 

Believe me. No one does. 

We shouldn't stomp Saryn into the ground. That's not going to help.

But that doesn't change the fact that she's wildly out of proportion. 

But she needs to be at a level closer to other Warframes, and the same can be said of a lot of other nukes.

This is a problem, despite what you might think. 

People aren't upset because they're not getting the most kills. People aren't upset because they don't like the game or the difficulty. People aren't upset because

They're upset because they're not allowed or able to do anything. Even if they're support, they're pretty much useless to Nukes except to up the spawn rates. They're upset because they don't have a chance to kill or do anything besides wait to extract. 

Sure, that's great if you don't want to actually play the game, but then why even play at all if you don't want to play?

[sinnae]

I mean...you have the option to queue for a sortie solo. But you didn't. You didn't want to, or couldn't, do the thing alone. Then you ask that your teammates tailor their playstyles to your need for a difficulty level/team comp/team synergy that is *perfectly suited* to your personal desires?

ROFL

People running sorties every single day as a routine do not need to tailor their nuke builds for the benefit of your ~fresh experience~.

When I want to feel challenged or want to play at my own pace, I queue solo.

Edited August 17, 2019 by sinnae

[Test-995]

30 minutes ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

They don't need to nerf her into the ground, and no one said they did. Nukes, especially Saryn are an outlier in terms of power. They need to be reasonably in line with other Warframes. 

Yes, some Warframes are allowed to be objectively better. But that difference shouldn't be this rediculous. 

If nerfing a single nuker won't help, being them all into line. As I said, we don't have to nerf them into the ground. We just have to make them more cooperative. 

Yes, it's awful what happened with Ember. I can sympathize with a playstyle being toned down (or in her case, stomped into the ground.) No one likes nerfs. 

Believe me. No one does. 

We shouldn't stomp Saryn into the ground. That's not going to help.

But that doesn't change the fact that she's wildly out of proportion. 

But she needs to be at a level closer to other Warframes, and the same can be said of a lot of other nukes.

This is a problem, despite what you might think. 

People aren't upset because they're not getting the most kills. People aren't upset because they don't like the game or the difficulty. People aren't upset because

They're upset because they're not allowed or able to do anything. Even if they're support, they're pretty much useless to Nukes except to up the spawn rates. They're upset because they don't have a chance to kill or do anything besides wait to extract. 

Sure, that's great if you don't want to actually play the game, but then why even play at all if you don't want to play?

Eh, because "we" want reward and not the actual gameplay for it.

I'm not sure if anyone who loving formaing things or grinding for same things 100 times, in warframe there is no meaningful difference between each run of those, so in the end we start to think like get the reward ASAP and let's gtfo.

What you are going to do is removal of most efficient and less squadmate reliant way to farm things, so, instead, how about restriction for using saryn in PuG, or nerfs that is only applicable for PuG saryn? 

Yeah it's stupid but i think this is the best way to dealing with those kind of things? currently it encourages people like you to do solo, with this change it encourages people don't want to play the game to do solo/premade.

[uAir]

4 hours ago, Aldain said:

Saryn and Mesa (among others) don't even need support frames though, they don't even need anything but themselves.

Support frames aren't needed BECAUSE of the power balance issues, nevermind the endless energy economy that we have now, Harrow is outperformed by Operators and Energy Pizzas. Damage buff frames only stack more damage on top of already overkill damage and defensive frames are only needed in Defense missions when the point is reached that a stray bullet one-shots the defense target. Then there's Vauban, who has never been more useless because dead enemies are better than CC'd enemies.

There is slowly becoming no place for any frame that can't wipe a tileset every 5 seconds by itself, sure the frames can exist and be played, but why bother when the power gap is so large that playing anything else is deemed "inefficient" and shoved to the wayside.

That being said I will play my Excalibur until Warframe's servers go down no matter how "inefficient" it gets.

Have you been to 4x3 tridolons?

[Aldain]

21 minutes ago, uAir said:

Have you been to 4x3 tridolons?

Eidolons are literally one of the few situations where DPS frames are unable to snap the game in half, strictly because they are immune to all abilities.

One narrow example of where Mesa and Sayrn aren't gods doesn't magically make them any less powerful. Bosses of any type are immune to direct damage abilities because of how overpowering they are, if anything you just made the point more clear of how powerful the frames are because the game has to make rules that prevent them from using those abilities.

Think of it this way, status effects like Viral and Slash are able to melt high level enemies in seconds, that's why they had to make bosses immune to status effects, apply that same logic to Sayrn and Mesa and you have the exact same reason for the immunity, because those types of frames and status are so powerful that if the game DIDN'T stop them they would break those parts of the game as well.

When a developer has to start making rules to stop tools that the players have from effortlessly destroying content you know that something is too strong.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Aldain

[Sahansral]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb DatDarkOne:

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed. 

And what's wrong about that?

The big gap between both support and cc and (some) DPS would get smaller again - at least a bit.

Considering the current situation, I can see only benefits in that.

[uAir]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Eidolons are literally one of the few situations where DPS frames are unable to snap the game in half, strictly because they are immune to all abilities.

One narrow example of where Mesa and Sayrn aren't gods doesn't magically make them any less powerful. Bosses of any type are immune to direct damage abilities because of how overpowering they are, if anything you just made the point more clear of how powerful the frames are because the game has to make rules that prevent them from using those abilities.

Think of it this way, status effects like Viral and Slash are able to melt high level enemies in seconds, that's why they had to make bosses immune to status effects, apply that same logic to Sayrn and Mesa and you have the exact same reason for the immunity, because those types of frames and status are so powerful that if the game DIDN'T stop them they would break those parts of the game as well.

When a developer has to start making rules to stop tools that the players have from effortlessly destroying content you know that something is too strong.

Saryn and Mesa can ease their way through low level content. Just because a frame is able to beat low level content easily is no grounds to nerf them. Because a Mesa carried you through a defense mission on Jupiter doesn't mean she's op or that she needs to be nerfed. That's your very narrow perspective on the performance envelope of what Mesa can and cannot do.

The only place where Saryn shines, where she undoubtedly performs better than every other frame, is ESO. One instance of Saryn's greatness is not grounds to nerf her.

Think of it this way, any frame can do low level content. Who really cares about that other than low level players who don't have access to higher level content? Should we cater the game to them? Or should we cater the game to high level players who want to breeze through low level content when they need to farm some materials?

=========

We already know that it takes more than just "viral and slash" to melt high level targets. You can't go to level 250 enemies and just spam Saryn 4 and think you'll outperform the Wukong. One of the best viral/slash weapons is tigris prime and that's a subpar weapon at best to use at the endgame. So your entire argument there is void about viral and slash.  You're literally just making things up now from a very limited point of view.

The developer doesn't have any rules to stop players from effortlessly destroying content. But the rule of what can and cannot be played and in what way shouldn't be given to MR 8 players with under 150 hours of playtime under their belt who hasn't completed a single tridolon yet.

=========

Let me put it another way. Every real endgame player who does arbitration and who has gone on and maybe still goes on multiple hours of endless survivals knows that Wukong is a ridiculous monster now. They know that Mag is a real piece and can tie together almost any team composition. They know Octavia outperforms practically everything. They know Saryn is nigh useless and Mesa is very good until enemy level scales up to a certain point without a very concerted effort to support her from her allies.

But how many of these veteran players do you see on here crying about "Mag is too strong at endgame."
"Nyx is too op and is one of the easiest frames to solo lvl 500 enemies with. Please nerf Nyx."
"Melee scaling is too op at endgame, please nerf it so we can use our primaries and secondaries."
"Mesa is too weak at endgame, she needs buffs."
"Saryn is too useless at endgame, I want her 1 to 1shot enemies the way it does on Earth."

I haven't seen a single one of those topics made. Why? Because endgame players have better sense than that.
The only complaints I see are low level players who don't know enough about the game who haven't played enough of the game crying about Saryn or Mesa when really, they probably could've been carried by a Loki and you'd still be crying about how Loki is too strong and can be permanently invisible and kills all the enemies and disable all their weapons so the game is too easy since no enemies can shoot now blah blah."

Low level players who don't know enough are very vocal. I don't want DE to be making game changes based on that vocal minority. Especially when I can sit in recruit chat for an hour and probably see at least 5 requests for help from random players to be carried through some content and those players don't care if I'm using Saryn or Mesa or Loki or Mag or Nyx so long as they get carried. I've been in public tridolons where if I wasn't there they probably would've failed at teralyst. Not one of them sat there complaining that I was the one grabbing and charging the lures. On the forums, maybe many low level players come to complain about Saryn. But in the actual game, everyone is very thankful Saryn is carrying them through 8 levels of SO or ESO so they can relax and easily reap the rewards with that guarantee.

It's usually some new-ish player who thinks the game should be played and made in his image that is the one complaining. It's too few the really good players at the endgame who are making suggestions that should be made to balance out the game.
 

Edited August 17, 2019 by uAir

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Would be funny (sad? hmm) to see people complain they've to have a trinity in every game because since there's no nuker to clear stuff they've to take all damage upfront. And without a trin they can't survive. Either asking for a nerf so that they're not mandatory anymore, or a dps frames buff ? Since at that point invulnerable warframes would be nerfed too anyway.

If you can't survive without a Trinity or Saryn, you're doing something wrong. Before the power balance got so wildly out of hand, people used frames like Nyx, Frost, and Oberon to control the ebb and flow of the crowd. Nerfing every nuker into the ground wouldn't result in a mandatory Trinity or healer for every group, it might make defense missions a little longer, but otherwise, nukers are not as essential as you're making them out to be.

I play support as well, and I greatly dislike playing with Saryns or Mesas; especially if I'm using Harrow, Nidus, or Capacitance Volt. Frames, who's abilities require you to damage or kill the targets in order to get the most out of them. Even if I'm using Rage Inaros or Oberon, I dislike playing with nukers since the enemies frequently die before they can shoot at me.

And looking at how Grendel's abilities will be based on stacks, similar to Nidus, I believe you can just add him to the list of frames nukers will be incredibly disruptive towards.

This entire situation has gotten so far out of DE control, that there doesn't seem to be much they can due to fix it, without facing a ton of backlash from either side. Their hands are tied very tightly on this issue, so I doubt it will be reigned in or corrected any time soon.

[Blexander]

7 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

It was a knee-jerk reaction Nerf to all the whining that was being posted in the forums about Ember.  

In an interview from a while ago, DE said they only look into changing warframes based on the popularity of the opinion, which is a lie, but let's say that's the case.

Because of the vague wording of "popularity", we can assume a thread like this might be considered popular, and they'll deside to nerf Saryn, while most likely skimming through the thread almost ignoring people saying she doesn't need a nerf.

I wonder...

[Test-995]

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I play support as well, and I greatly dislike playing with Saryns or Mesas; especially if I'm using Harrow, Nidus, or Capacitance Volt. Frames, who's abilities require you to damage or kill the targets in order to get the most out of them. Even if I'm using Rage Inaros or Oberon, I dislike playing with nukers since the enemies frequently die before they can shoot at me.

And looking at how Grendel's abilities will be based on stacks, similar to Nidus, I believe you can just add him to the list of frames nukers will be incredibly disruptive towards.

Honestly that's the problem with those frame's design, because not only nukers, every one of squadmate (frame doesn't really matter, anything that can kill lot, or anyone who has superior aim than you) can remove your precious "resource" by killing it.

They are solo frame and not really coop friendly i guess.

[AkyFenrir]

Il y a 6 heures, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

This. All of this. 

This is the problem. You really cannot pretend that this huge gap is nothing.

They don't need to nerf her into the ground, and no one said they did. Nukes, especially Saryn are an outlier in terms of power. They need to be reasonably in line with other Warframes. 

  If nerfing a single nuker won't help, being them all into line. As I said, we don't have to nerf them into the ground. We just have to make them more cooperative. 

 

My problem with this idea is very simple. Nukers are made to be AOE dps, therefore they kill a lot of low level ennemies quickly. That's their point. You are complaining that Saryn kills too quickly so let me ask this. How do you nerf Saryn without it being into the ground ? If you're expecting people to be able to shoot at things it would mean one thing only => nukers can't nuke anymore. There's litteraly no way around it,

Let's say DE change spore so LOS is needed to extend spores, it would become nearly impossible to expand spores making it a nerf into the ground too?

If you make her ult LOS it another nuke would take it's place immediately, and we would get a "nerf new nuke" posts again until they all get nerf and somehow Saryn gets back to light (despite nerfs) and should be nerf again? because  nukers are bad and stuff.

Or you can affect the range, and get a second Ember.

See ? there's no way to nerf a nuker to make it "playable" for other players without destroying that warframe.

May I ask you what do you play? i'm pretty sure i can find many reasons why that warframe should be nerfed too you know ? it's not hard to complain.

Il y a 6 heures, sinnae a dit :

I mean...you have the option to queue for a sortie solo. But you didn't. You didn't want to, or couldn't, do the thing alone. Then you ask that your teammates tailor their playstyles to your need for a difficulty level/team comp/team synergy that is *perfectly suited* to your personal desires?

ROFL

People running sorties every single day as a routine do not need to tailor their nuke builds for the benefit of your ~fresh experience~.

When I want to feel challenged or want to play at my own pace, I queue solo.

Thank you :)

Il y a 5 heures, Test-995 a dit :

Eh, because "we" want reward and not the actual gameplay for it.

I'm not sure if anyone who loving formaing things or grinding for same things 100 times, in warframe there is no meaningful difference between each run of those, so in the end we start to think like get the reward ASAP and let's gtfo.

What you are going to do is removal of most efficient and less squadmate reliant way to farm things, so, instead, how about restriction for using saryn in PuG, or nerfs that is only applicable for PuG saryn? 

Yeah it's stupid but i think this is the best way to dealing with those kind of things? currently it encourages people like you to do solo, with this change it encourages people don't want to play the game to do solo/premade.

Exactly, i'm all for efficiency after 1,7K +hours... New players can't get that because they're not there yet.

Il y a 4 heures, Aldain a dit :

Eidolons are literally one of the few situations where DPS frames are unable to snap the game in half, strictly because they are immune to all abilities.

One narrow example of where Mesa and Sayrn aren't gods doesn't magically make them any less powerful. Bosses of any type are immune to direct damage abilities because of how overpowering they are, if anything you just made the point more clear of how powerful the frames are because the game has to make rules that prevent them from using those abilities.

Think of it this way, status effects like Viral and Slash are able to melt high level enemies in seconds, that's why they had to make bosses immune to status effects, apply that same logic to Sayrn and Mesa and you have the exact same reason for the immunity, because those types of frames and status are so powerful that if the game DIDN'T stop them they would break those parts of the game as well.

When a developer has to start making rules to stop tools that the players have from effortlessly destroying content you know that something is too strong.

So let see, hmmm Rescue, arbitration, capture, endless after the first 20 minutes/waves... Well looks like there's a lot of places where Dps frames can't cut trough content ? I'm so surprised right now!

That's why you're talking about 2 elements that aren't good versus high level right ? By the way Mesa can kill most bosses so yeah.

Rules are NOT a bad thing, they're a good thing... Rules change gameplay doing exactly what you're asking for ! And strong is relative, fast warframes are "strong" in rescue/capture, yet i don't see anyone being like "hey this guy got there so fast i couldn't hack to save the hostage" or "Hey i didn't even reached the target area he was on extraction"? Because they can shoot stuff irrelevant to the mission so it's just fine ?

Il y a 4 heures, Sahansral a dit :

And what's wrong about that?

The big gap between both support and cc and (some) DPS would get smaller again - at least a bit.

Considering the current situation, I can see only benefits in that.

 That's the point, if there's another nuke taking the lead it won't change a single thing. And the only way to deal with nukers is to destroy them and making jokes of them somehow.

Il y a 3 heures, uAir a dit :

Let me put it another way. Every real endgame player who does arbitration and who has gone on and maybe still goes on multiple hours of endless survivals knows that Wukong is a ridiculous monster now. They know that Mag is a real piece and can tie together almost any team composition. They know Octavia outperforms practically everything. They know Saryn is nigh useless and Mesa is very good until enemy level scales up to a certain point without a very concerted effort to support her from her allies.

But how many of these veteran players do you see on here crying about "Mag is too strong at endgame."
"Nyx is too op and is one of the easiest frames to solo lvl 500 enemies with. Please nerf Nyx."
"Melee scaling is too op at endgame, please nerf it so we can use our primaries and secondaries."
"Mesa is too weak at endgame, she needs buffs."
"Saryn is too useless at endgame, I want her 1 to 1shot enemies the way it does on Earth."

I haven't seen a single one of those topics made. Why? Because endgame players have better sense than that.
The only complaints I see are low level players who don't know enough about the game who haven't played enough of the game crying about Saryn or Mesa when really, they probably could've been carried by a Loki and you'd still be crying about how Loki is too strong and can be permanently invisible and kills all the enemies and disable all their weapons so the game is too easy since no enemies can shoot now blah blah."

Low level players who don't know enough are very vocal.

It's usually some new-ish player who thinks the game should be played and made in his image that is the one complaining. It's too few the really good players at the endgame who are making suggestions that should be made to balance out the game.
 

 I can do same things as nerf requesters now yeah :

THIS! JUST THIS IS THE PROBLEM! i'm kinda good at this too!

Il y a 2 heures, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

 If you can't survive without a Trinity or Saryn, you're doing something wrong. Before the power balance got so wildly out of hand, people used frames like Nyx, Frost, and Oberon to control the ebb and flow of the crowd. Nerfing every nuker into the ground wouldn't result in a mandatory Trinity or healer for every group, it might make defense missions a little longer, but otherwise, nukers are not as essential as you're making them out to be.

I play support as well, and I greatly dislike playing with Saryns or Mesas; especially if I'm using Harrow, Nidus, or Capacitance Volt. Frames, who's abilities require you to damage or kill the targets in order to get the most out of them. Even if I'm using Rage Inaros or Oberon, I dislike playing with nukers since the enemies frequently die before they can shoot at me.

And looking at how Grendel's abilities will be based on stacks, similar to Nidus, I believe you can just add him to the list of frames nukers will be incredibly disruptive towards.

This entire situation has gotten so far out of DE control, that there doesn't seem to be much they can due to fix it, without facing a ton of backlash from either side. Their hands are tied very tightly on this issue, so I doubt it will be reigned in or corrected any time soon.

If you don't understand my message stating everything is so nerfed because they affect people pew pew gameplay that trinity would be the last one standing to be able to let the team deal with ennemies... What am I supposed to say ?  

About nukers being essential, at this point i can say, There's no skills essential to the game? Sure it would make things longer but hey ?

il y a 47 minutes, Test-995 a dit :

 Honestly that's the problem with those frame's design, because not only nukers, every one of squadmate (frame doesn't really matter, anything that can kill lot, or anyone who has superior aim than you) can remove your precious "resource" by killing it.

They are solo frame and not really coop friendly i guess.

That's exactly what those warframes are, DE made those so solo players could have fun. And now it's used as an argument against nukers :)