Can something be done about Saryn?

[Xepthrichros]

On 2019-08-13 at 2:22 AM, (PS4)Timcan_57 said:

So,when there's a toxic destroyer in your team as Saryn,you don't need to do anything.She kills everything instantly.She is a tank,too.

I knowwhen you revisited Wukong,you aimed people to play him.People weren't playing him because there was better tanks with CC abilities etc.

And now it's same with Saryn,but the opposite situation.There's no reason to play with any other Warframe if you have a Terminator that can take any damage possible in the system,you won't need any other Warframe.

Nice bait.

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

I agree, Saryn needs another look. 

She is doing exactly what Ember did, just on a much larger scale and without punishment. Ember was too good at killing, so they nerfed her into the ground. Then they turned around and made Saryn a nuke, to my understanding.

While Saryn makes missions go by faster, I find she sucks the fun out of it. She leaves nothing for the rest of the squad to do. She kills through walls, all while standing in one spot. 

Please explain again how this isn't a problem? I'm genuinely curious.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Sea_Blue_Stars

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Sorry, no. This game doesn't need more power creep. There's nothing in the game that needs frames that can nuke rooms with one button like Saryn can.

My comment stated that the potential of Saryn is in a good spot, but I could understand them making it take a bit more effort to reach such a state. If Saryn went from an easy DPS to one that required a bit more effort from the player, that would balance it more compared to a Warframe like Volt where you just press 4. Gara can DPS, Mag can DPS, Mesa can DPS, and many other setups can DPS that aren't Saryn. I would like DE to look at Warframes in Saryn's category and place them closer to the synergy and effectiveness of Saryn while also making sure said effectiveness requires active play and isn't too easy.

All the "garbage" mechanics you list are not that bad to combat in gameplay. For example, Nullifiers can be shot with high RoF weapons, popped from the drone, or you can take a Miter with the augment.

I don't want to see Saryn be nerfed in output, but I would surely support making the current DPS stay with a bit more user input.

"No one Frame should be capable of doing what a team should be doing" does not make sense considering you can do just that with so many other items in the game. You can't blame Saryn for Melee Range, Magus Lockdown, etc. Saryn is an outlier in terms of effectiveness given the little input she needs to do, but she's not near DPS Trinity or other past nukes that were out there. Ash is a great example of why we shouldn't just nerf something into the ground solely due to effectiveness.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Voltage

[Peter]

So you want an Ember 2.0? Gotcha.

[WoodedSkate89]

5 hours ago, uAir said:

I really hope no new player reads this and thinks Saryn's 2 will carry them to endgame because they can just press it whenever they want to survive in the endgame. Or that Saryn is special because of her 2.

WoodedSkate89 has shown time and again that he knows very little about the game itself and yet will talk on here as if he's the most knowledgeable person around. Please don't take his opinions as fact in any way.

Among his more misguided opinions:
-Rhino can carry ESO solo to 8 waves by getting 1 mil armor and using an Ignis.
-Saryn is so overpowered she can solo everything in the game.
-Using Hildryn/Rhino is a true showing of skills in the game.
-Chroma needs a rework because he tested so many builds in the Simulacrum and Chroma's 1 and 4 were very weak. My only guess as to how and why he came to this conclusion was that he couldn't understand how Chroma's 2 and 3 worked. Probably too much reading comprehension required because it's not as simple as "press this button and get kills."
-Doing 30 minutes of survival as Rhino was a challenge in the game that should prove to everyone else that he's good at the game. This is WoodedSkate89's attempt at flexing his elite Warframe skills. When he got called out by another player that his challenges were dumb and anyone could do them with almost any frame he got mad and took it as a personal insult instead of just accepting that he needs to learn more about the game.

And now, he thinks Saryn's 2 is something that defines her endgame. Any player that actually plays at endgame knows how dumb this argument is. You can delete Saryn's 2 and no one that plays at endgame would care because every frame gets Molt and many should be making use of it at endgame for ease of play.

Regenerative molt...

I literally have never acted like that. And what "don't I know about the game" that I have claimed to have known

For my "misguided opinions"

1. With ironclad charge he can get 1mil armor max (usually around 100k-250k though). With iron shrapnel he can project all of that as raw damage. Arcane energize helps you use this ability as much as possible.

Don't believe me? Here are several videos of people doing just that

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

2. I said she can easily solo early game content, and with regenerative molt and the right weapon setup level 60ish enemies. She can't solo lvl 100 enemies

3. I just said that I use Hildryn. Stop assuming things.

4. I do know how his 2 and 3 work. Again, stop assuming things. (Also a saryn main trying to call me out for "pressing a button and getting kills"... cute) If 2 of his abilities are useless in his kit, I thought he should have a rework. I was wondering what other people thought, but most were fine with his 2 and 4 being good and the rest being unused.

5. This is just lies. Getting 30 minutes of survival really isn't that hard (depends on the mission actually). But either way you made up that I said this... That never happened.

6. Regenerative molt gives her more survivability endgame. I don't know why this is a debate. An ability that HEALS YOU, helps when enemies are doing more damage.

[WoodedSkate89]

2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

I agree, Saryn needs another look. 

She is doing exactly what Ember did, just on a much larger scale and without punishment. Ember was too good at killing, so they nerfed her into the ground. Then they turned around and made Saryn a nuke, to my understanding.

While Saryn makes missions go by faster, I find she sucks the fun out of it. She leaves nothing for the rest of the squad to do. She kills through walls, all while standing in one spot. 

Please explain again how this isn't a problem? I'm genuinely curious.

The main arguments I've seen against this is people with bad saryn builds denying this is possible

[Cibyllae]

#RevertSarynto2.0W/OMoltSpam

[selig_fay]

3 часа назад, Voltage сказал:

Saryn is an outlier in terms of effectiveness given the little input she needs to do, but she's not near DPS Trinity or other past nukes that were out there. Ash is a great example of why we shouldn't just nerf something into the ground solely due to effectiveness.

Ash wasn't nerf, it's still effective. He easily kills enemies level 300-500. And if you add an ability that automatically marks all targets within a 50 meter radius, we'll get a second Saryn and a semi AFK farm. If we just add an automatic attack on a tagged target three seconds after the mark is applied, we'll save the gameplay. Even better, Ash would get marks as a passive ability that increases damage on the marked target, and 4 would just trigger clones. There are so many ideas. Why do people only have to stand still and push buttons? 

I can only speak for myself and I say personally I don't need ash which is saryn.

[ramious23]

How can people actually complain about a frame being strong in a game like warframe? 

Every frame has situational strengths and weaknesses.

Saryn is perfectly fine and her strength as a dps nuker is in more confined defense type missions where walls can hinder other nukers.

Warframe is designed in a way that it allows you to pick and play any frame you want in any scenario you want this diversity is healthy and good for the game.

Nerfing a frame does nothing but cater to those with fragile egos that another frame did more damage or had more kills then they were able to produce. 

I recently picked up Saryn as a previous Loki, mag, nova, nyx player and I find her kit fun and strong in the areas she excels. There are many other scenarios where I still revert to my other frames.

Having a Saryn on my team on defense missions is great and doesn't retract from me enjoying the game as it facilities the team goal of completing the mission successfully.

People that complain about relative strength of another frame are ludicrous the game is designed to have players with much higher power spikes and potential based on discrepencies that are created by time invested maxing out a character vs those that are less geared.

Also to have such a fragile ego of being outperformed in certain scenarios means you should just play and do everything solo. 

Playing Saryn I have had many scenarios where people are able to compete or even outperform me in any setting. I will concede that on defense missions she is king but I play her as an active melee playstyle.

Her kit is really well made and fun to use and something everyone can chose to enjoy nerfing her serves no real purpose

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Pizzarugi:

Just because you don't play her like a nuke build, doesn't mean nobody else does. The vast majority of Saryn users play her for the purpose of being the most efficient frame for farming the game, by clearing everything in the blink of an eye over and over again. If what you say about how you play her is true, you're a rare exception, but not the norm.

sooo... because you could do something we have to restrict it? thats kind of patronize players...

i see many saryn which do not simply press 4 and go.. but yes, sometime it happens that a saryn do so. whats the problem? i go to the other side of the map and have fun for myself. thats not really the problem you write.  beside that - a slash is much faster in bringing down enemies even if they are attacked by miasma. or the shot with a arca.

to bring saryn to the all overkilling mega nuke (which she is not) you think she is, you have to go a long road, farm the right mods, the right arcanas, you have to forma her several time to get it all in and so on.. beside: you first need a mastery rank high enough to get her and a longer playing time. if you have just normal mods you will only kill enemies till lvl 20... if you are lucky. thats what in all of your nice little monologs is missing. and i see no problem in the fact that a high level player which has spend hunderts of hours in the game has a pretty nice frame. thats what you are playing for: getting the best equipment for the mission. also you will never play saryn in spy missions or something like that. because she is not build for this. and again, it's not to simply press 4 and go.. you need enough energy too. i enemies spawn rapidly you will fastly get out of energy if pressing 4 is the only thing you do. without it, a saryn pretty gets killed in no time. against corpus a saryn is also not really the best frame.

for farming also other frame are much better like nekros. as you will get saryn on sedna, you also will not make the game with this frame. 

saryn has a single purpose. strip enemies down, so you and other can kill them. support, not overkill. thats it.

for me this is a melee support frame, strip enemies armour, kill with slashing them down. thats how i play her. but if you can't do mass damage with her - her purpose is lost. it will simply destroy the frames beeing.

Edited August 15, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
add some...

[selig_fay]

21 минуту назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

i see many saryn which do not simply press 4 and go.. but yes, sometime it happens that a saryn do so. whats the problem? i go to the other side of the map and have fun for myself. thats not really the problem you write. beside that - a slash is much faster in bringing down enemies even if they are attacked by miasma. or the shot with a arca.

You're out of synthesis range. Mobs will spawn around the host, which means you cant see mobs if will go far.(For example on survival missions.) I don't think you've ever done what you say.

[Xolgys]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Pizzarugi:

snip~

thats more a design issue. if u decide to design a dmg frame then better make it good or it will just be a pointless effort. the issue clearing lv 60 rooms easily is more of an issue of game difficulty. warframes, weapons and mods grew more powerful over the years whilst content is still waiting for a growth in terms of difficulty aside of enemy scaling, which noone has to play above level ~110. thats not an issue of frames themselves though. saryn is just one way to do that and yea, the others arent as efficient but there will always be one most efficient way. the bigger discussion should be lead about more content which improves the need for teamplay and the actual power frames have nowadays in my opinion.

still, u have to remember that not everyone is a teamplayer and warframe tries to adress everyone. random squads usually dont have much teamplay, which starts with the loadout already...so innately teamplay in random groups is a counterargument to go too ham and cheese on missions requiring teamplay already and most of us play with randoms i dare say. if u play exclusively with friends then u can just leave saryn or any other "nuke" in ur orbiter and dont have to bother with what others outside of ur session play.

early game is not really something u can adress just by nerfing frames around low level. the concept of growing stronger brings the issue that once u do low level things others will just be bystanders, especially in games where u have a mission based design like warframe does, or dungeons in mmorpgs for example. if a high lvl vet joins a low level instance then good bye challenge, hello walk in the park. u do want to grow stronger in a looter...u dont want to go back to low level content because why ever and then see that ur still more or less as weak as back when u started because some script scales ur stats down to the level of the mission...thats prolly the worst u could do in a game like warframe.

we are too powerful after a certain point for the content thats usually played and nuke frames are the ones where its most noticable, by design. the core issue is content itself though. if we had content which required actual teamplay and gave value to every single frame, even more supportive ones, then the current "issue" wouldnt be as present and AoE dmg alone wouldnt be as powerful if enemies could withstand it better in regular content.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Xydeth

[SilverBones]

This thread takes sweeping turns towards constructive and then back to personal attacks. I want to encourage good discussion on the topic, but only if the thread remains civil and does not degrade into personal attacks. If it tilts back towards the latter, then it will get locked. Please keep your discussion civil and constructive, please.

[VentiGlondi]

 

Quote

thats more a design issue. if u decide to design a dmg frame then better make it good or it will just be a pointless effort. the issue clearing lv 60 rooms easily is more of an issue of game difficulty. warframes, weapons and mods grew more powerful over the years whilst content is still waiting for a growth in terms of difficulty aside of enemy scaling, which noone has to play above level ~110. thats not an issue of frames themselves though

This just completely goes over my head.

The fact that Warframes keep growing in power keep outpacing the content is not a Warframe problem?

Is keeping Warframe's power in line with the content's difficulty level somehow an inherently bad thing, and it's content's fault that it didn't manage to keep up?

"Enemies are too weak" is a problem, but "Player is too strong" is not?

Is everything just supposed to infinitely scale in power?

Quote

the core issue is content itself though. if we had content which required actual teamplay and gave value to every single frame, even more supportive ones, then the current issue wouldnt be as present and AoE dmg alone wouldnt be as powerful if enemies could withstand it better in regular content. 

Support and CC was more prevalent back when a single Warframe wasn't capable of removing all the threat on its own.

Lack of teamplay comes from the fact that one player can do an entire team's work.

Quote

if a high lvl vet joins a low any level instance then good bye challenge, hello walk in the park.

ftfy

Edited August 15, 2019 by VentiGlondi

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb zhellon:

You're out of synthesis range. Mobs will spawn around the host, which means you cant see mobs if will go far.(For example on survival missions.) I don't think you've ever done what you say.

Enemies spawn where ever a player is. 

That's why you should stay together in void vissure to get enough.. 

May you should rethink what you wrote? 

[Xolgys]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb VentiGlondi:

The fact that Warframes keep growing in power keep outpacing the content is not a Warframe problem?

Is keeping Warframe's power in line with the content's difficulty level somehow an inherently bad thing, and it's content's fault that it didn't manage to keep up?

"Enemies are too weak" is a problem, but "Player is too strong" is not?

 

by design issue i meant frames themselves, not warframe as a game and its also not really an issue in a typical sense imo since if u want to keep frames and weapons interesting u need to introduce not just interesting new ideas but also stronger ones, or it will just be labled MR fodder so new frames/weapons/mods are bound to be stronger.

its just that when u have a looter which gets more interesting and stronger loot added over the years then content needs to follow up in terms of difficulty.

i mean powercreep is a thing...and thats basically what im talking about.

 

[xRufus7x]

13 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

 

 

This just completely goes over my head.

The fact that Warframes keep growing in power keep outpacing the content is not a Warframe problem? 

It certainly isn't a Warframe specific issue. Every source of damage in the game has been powercreeped. Primed mods, Rivens, Hunters Munitions, Condition Overload, Body Count/Blood Rush are all examples of this along with the base stats of weapons getting higher over time. For a long time Boltor Prime was the best primary in the game, then it got powercreeped into irrelevancy, then it got a pretty good buff and it still isn't top tier.

 

IMO, it isn't an easy situation to solve and when or if DE decides to tackle it they will undoubtedly upset a good chunk of the player base that likes that aspect of the game.

Edited August 15, 2019 by xRufus7x

[selig_fay]

24 минуты назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

Enemies spawn where ever a player is.

very often one can observe that the mobs have very little or no, if you're far away from the player at number 1. 

Although I thought, and understood, that this in principle not matter. Running away from the players is like playing solo. Makes sense to me, then, to play the game online if I still play alone?

 

[(PSN)ArchangelX3Z]

Not my Saryn T_T lol, I must confess at never having been toppled for top damage and kills using my Saryn since her rework (only use her during Onslaught) but at least I'm always spinning around and killing fools 😉

 

Edit: Realized you must meant nuking with her 4...gross that's so boring.

Edited August 15, 2019 by (PS4)ArchangelX3Z

[SSI_Seraph]

We don't need an ember "rework" repeat. Honestly when when you play public you accept what comes with it. If you don't like that playstyle, my advice would be to recruit a squad or play solo. 

You're new and that's completely fine but you'll come to understand that after doing the same thing for the 1000th time, that saryn will seem more attractive as an option.  

Also, nuking is saryn's identity. She's the plague frame. 

Keep in mind that warframe is a power fantasy too. That's what gets people hooked.

Edited August 15, 2019 by SSI_Seraph

[-Bv-Psykiik]

Saryn Main here 

its not fair to ask devs to nerf warframe just because few players abuse its abilities ... i use here 1 and 3 only and i use her 4 only as a panic button when am surrounded by many mobs in small area or if i want to rev someone 

yes 90% or maybe 95% of the time iam the 1st in kills and dmg% but guess who always (or most of the time) can get higher than me? mesa prime and eqnux because they dont have to move to kill enemies while my saryn have to jump all over the map to spread the spores and kill ... all they need to do is just sit there and kill BUT if i abused spammed saryn 4th i will be higher than them but i dont like do that bcos its not fun to me  ... am not complaining am just saying what i saw 

in any game there are always 1 or 2 characters that may considered OP and dps goddess so its not a sin to have that in warframe .. here we have 40 characters and i think 6 or max 10 are considered OP including saryn eqnux and mesa and Ember was there too but now RIP.. we even have a character that literally cant die even if he wants too (inaros) and another character that can stay invisible 100% of the time and CC the whole map (ivara) and kinda loki..keep in mind that this is a PVE game not PVP 

if they nerf all OP wf to what Ember became it wont be fun anymore 

[Pizzarugi]

17 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

We don't need an ember "rework" repeat. Honestly when when you play public you accept what comes with it. If you don't like that playstyle, my advice would be to recruit a squad or play solo. 

You're new and that's completely fine but you'll come to understand that after doing the same thing for the 1000th time, that saryn will seem more attractive as an option.  

Also, nuking is saryn's identity. She's the plague frame. 

Keep in mind that warframe is a power fantasy too. That's what gets people hooked.

As someone earlier stated, the Ember rework was a result of nobody knowing how they were going to rebalance her. The end result is what we have now. Saryn needs LoS and range nerfs so she can't destroy everything 50+ meters away from her whenever players mash her 4.

Regarding that "play solo" point, I suggest you go back a page. I copy+pasted a response to someone suggesting it. Also, nobody should have to go on LFG chat just to ask to run one single mission that isn't even noteworthy in the slightest, leave, then ask for another so they can avoid playing with a broken frame.

Nuking isn't an identity, it's an abuse of mechanics borne from players wanting to cheese past the game's excessive reliance on grinding. You can argue that she's a DPS frame, but there's so many other DPS frames that doesn't suck the fun out of the game for everyone not playing but had the misfortune of teaming up with them. You can have a DPS frame without trivializing the game.

Also, power fantasy isn't an excuse to ignore balance. There are ways you can feel powerful without simplifying the experience down to pressing 1 button until everything's dead and walking to extraction. That is just mindless button mashing at this point, to watch a bunch of affinity points flash on your screen. Pretty sure that's not how DE intended the game to be played.

[SSI_Seraph]

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

The end result is what we have now. Saryn needs LoS and range nerfs so she can't destroy everything 50+ meters away from her whenever players mash her 4.

First that's not how to play saryn effectively to begin with and that was nerfed with her reworks. her 4 is bad alone unless you're playing against garbage enemies that no frame should struggle against.

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Regarding that "play solo" point, I suggest you go back a page. I copy+pasted a response to someone suggesting it. Also, nobody should have to go on LFG chat just to ask to run one single mission that isn't even noteworthy in the slightest, leave, then ask for another so they can avoid playing with a broken frame.

Second, you're not gonna force randoms to play the way you want. In any giving game public means you accept anything that's thrown at you.

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

without trivializing the game.

She doesn't, maybe try to up the level a bit and she turns into an armor stripper rather than a dps nuking a room. ESO is an exception because of enemy density. OFC in hydron or any low level mission, the game is gonna be trivialized because those are low level missions. If we nerf everything a new player sees as op get ready to welcome 30 embers because last time I checked nearly all the frames with AOEs can "nuke" low level missions.

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

power fantasy isn't an excuse to ignore balance

if you think that needs balance. go check that mesa actually using one ability and nuking everything she looks at or revenant dealing % max health on reave.

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Pretty sure that's not how DE intended the game to be played.

Except they did when modes like ESO exist and basicly force you into this or spamming maiming to keep up with the efficiency drop effectively.

[ThreeOSix]

Just keep playing, level up your stuff, unlock more frames, get to higher tier content.  Once you get there, you will be happy you have a Saryn on your team.  High level she won't be one shotting as much but instead armor stripping and allowing the team to take out targets easier.

[VentiGlondi]

2 hours ago, xRufus7x said:

It certainly isn't a Warframe specific issue. Every source of damage in the game has been powercreeped. Primed mods, Rivens, Hunters Munitions, Condition Overload, Body Count/Blood Rush are all examples of this along with the base stats of weapons getting higher over time. For a long time Boltor Prime was the best primary in the game, then it got powercreeped into irrelevancy, then it got a pretty good buff and it still isn't top tier.

 

IMO, it isn't an easy situation to solve and when or if DE decides to tackle it they will undoubtedly upset a good chunk of the player base that likes that aspect of the game.

Okay, well, that is true.

The paradox is that enemies did in fact also grow stronger, but the gap between player and AI enemy is still greater than it ever was.

Quote

High level she won't be one shotting as much but instead armor stripping and allowing the team to take out targets easier.

If only I could reach that high level earlier than 1 hour into survival 😢