Looking towards other games for inspiration for End-Game tier content

[FissionStorm]

To start off, this is something I've been pondering over the past few days ever since I recently completed the mainstory+all optional quests in Monster Hunter: World (my 'break' game from warframe).

As a lot of people know, one of the grandest gripes that veterans and content creators have is the lack of "endgame" content. At the moment I feel that the scope of what Warframe can achieve in missions is too short and simple to ever qualify as endgame. Arbitrations were supposed to be endgame but came up short as long drawn out grind fests or cheesing enemies, I actually haven't even seen many people queue for any Arbis except for excavation as of late. Disruption was a step in the right direction of balancing time spent vs. rewards given and hopefully the expansion of the game type will go further in that regard.

-One thing that I really feel that Warframe could use beyond its current system is more unique, intrinsic rewards from certain enemies/bosses and an expansion of the scope of boss fights. For instance, I'd like to propose something akin to how MHW handles its current endgame (which will be subject to upheaval with its new DLC) with Tempered enemies and Event quests. In short for those who don't know, in MHW a "tempered" enemy/monster has increased difficulty in the form of higher stats and more aggressive behavior and "Arch Tempered" Elder monsters with massively increased stats as well as new attacks, behaviors and gimmicks. This hike in difficulty (both active and artificial) is offset by increased rewards over normal enemies and access to new variations of gear. In addition to that, there's this "siege" quest, much like a raid, that offers some of the best-in-class weapons currently, that hinges on multiple teams of players hunting the same monster and each teams progress helps one another (example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvoUXl53CI).

-Another thought would be to add weapons and cosmetics exclusive to each boss (with non-abysmal drop rates) akin to how Vor currently drops Seer and Cronus or how MMO bosses from games like WoW and FFXIV drop gear items exclusive to them.

Expanding upon my first idea, I'd also suggest something like a special arena where we could fight multiple bosses (with scaled up stats) simultaneously. In order to not break lore and whatnot we could say maybe that its a Simaris simulation? I imagine just an average arena with 2-4 tenno fighting Lvl. 100+ Vor/Void Vor/Sargas/Jack/Alad and Zanuka in a timed mode (or other modifiers like nightmare missions).

 

[Goodwill]

It's easy for a game to have endgame content where for over a decade, the game has always known what it is and wants to be and doesn't stray too far off that path. Warframe you could say is an incomplete game, any endgame would probably be invalidated with the inclusion of new features or mechanics.

I think Warframe needs to focus on completing what it wants to be first. Have all of its eggs in the basket and then they can build off of that. Endgame is pointless if the game itself is flawed.

[Gabbynaru]

Don't look at other games, cause none of them offer what Warframe does, so nothing you find in those games will work in Warframe without a major overhaul first (which will make Warframe become anything but Warframe).

[kgabor]

Even a constantly updated game such as Warframe could have an endgame, if we had a power ceiling.

Currently that doesn't exist, but in a more skill oriented game it could work.

I doubt DE would add a difficult game mode where you could only use Banshee, Harrow, Hydroid and other balanced frames, simply because most new/casual players and some meta players currently relying on the nuke/tank crutches couldn't complete it.

[Lutesque]

Theres that "E" Word Again....

1 minute ago, kgabor said:

Currently that doesn't exist, but in a more skill oriented game it could work.

This !!!! 

[kyori]

43 minutes ago, FissionStorm said:

"endgame" content

This game doesn't end, so there is no endgame content. Whatever endgame content you want it to be, after you have them all, you will ask for more endgame. It's "neverending".

[XzWasPzX]

I hope the raids to come this year, as they said in the first devstream, or as soon as possible. There is a huge base of veterans that would enjoy a lot this content, and their thousands hours of play deserve some appreciation. 

And more. I suggest developping a dungeons system too, works pretty well in other games, and may be a challenging content. Problem as always: rewards.

[Kaleeiv]

they could do some cheap stuff like a hard mode star chart to unlock with lvl 150 + enemies, mission challenges like locked to solo, duo, or single weapons etc... with only kuva and endo as possible rewards and cosmetics at junctions. So it'd stay optional and still a goal to reach while relic farming would remains a thing for newer player to be helped by vets in the normal star chart.

if we gonna have 2 timelines with Duviri they can also create a lore explanation for something like that

[YazMatazO]

In WF you're in endgame as soon as you start playing the game...

Isn't that wonderful?

[kgabor]

1 minute ago, Kaleeiv said:

they could do some cheap stuff like a hard mode star chart to unlock with lvl 150 + enemies, mission challenges like locked to solo, duo, or single weapons etc... with only kuva and endo as possible rewards and cosmetics at junctions. So it'd stay optional and still a goal to reach while relic farming would remains a thing for newer player to be helped by vets in the normal star chart.

if we gonna have 2 timelines with Duviri they can also create a lore explanation for something like that

I would play that content, just for the potential Kuva rewards.

If the new starchart gave just slightly more Kuva/Flood-Siphon it would be already worth it.

I doubt it would take much time for most veteran players or even new ones who reached the final nodes of starchart to unlock the new Tau chart though, hopefully DE would add a twist that wouldn't make it that easy to burn through that content without adding timegates or grindy rng mechanics.

[Kaleeiv]

2 minutes ago, kgabor said:

I would play that content, just for the potential Kuva rewards.

If the new starchart gave just slightly more Kuva/Flood-Siphon it would be already worth it.

I doubt it would take much time for most veteran players or even new ones who reached the final nodes of starchart to unlock the new Tau chart though, hopefully DE would add a twist that wouldn't make it that easy to burn through that content without adding timegates or grindy rng mechanics.

you can still add 50+ levels between planets and finish with a really sick Sedna that requires team coordination and where you would go for a big challenge and not some farming session. 

I had guild wars 1 in mind for redoing a hard mode map completion achievement, but that could be stupidly hard and not very rewarding like super box adventure masochist mode In GW2.

[SneakyErvin]

54 minutes ago, kyori said:

This game doesn't end, so there is no endgame content. Whatever endgame content you want it to be, after you have them all, you will ask for more endgame. It's "neverending".

That is pretty much how endgame woks though in 99% of games.

It is always neverevending, no matter what game you play that has endgame because it gradually gets new endgame added for more endgame progression or the endgame mode itself is already endless like in less updated games such as D3 and their rifts.

[MacKerris]

I play this game because it's not like other games. Why in the heck would I want it to model itself after some other game...

In fact this "end game" purple keep harping about is just a fantasy... Give it up already

 

[Drachnyn]

Endgame can not simply consist of high level enemies. It needs to have other mechanics. In my opinion DE should look at FF14 for insiration for Raids. There it's not just about doing your max dps, instead a big focus is on correctly doing the boss mechanics which often require a good deal of positioning. We may not have the holy trinity of DPS, Tank and Healer in this game but I am sure you could create an interesting raid with Tank, AoE DPS and CC roles. 

[ranks21]

warframe doesn't have any form of storied mode for its characters so there will never be any end game. there is none for syndicates which would be a great place for an end game type story, none for relays, bosses, weapons attainment etc.

there are many ways to accomplish endgame content without making it seem like its done but youll get the feeling of completion character or faction wise, but DE isn't that flexible.

[Kaleeiv]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Endgame can not simply consist of high level enemies. It needs to have other mechanics. In my opinion DE should look at FF14 for insiration for Raids. There it's not just about doing your max dps, instead a big focus is on correctly doing the boss mechanics which often require a good deal of positioning. We may not have the holy trinity of DPS, Tank and Healer in this game but I am sure you could create an interesting raid with Tank, AoE DPS and CC roles. 

high level enemies can keep you busy till next content addition. Put some of them immune to procs, and you need a team and a bit of caution instead of cheesing everything. If it's completely optional and just convenient to do something else to farm kuva, endo of focus that the usual stuff you've done thousand times already, the change of pace can be welcome from time to time.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, FissionStorm said:

Looking towards other games for inspiration for End-Game tier content

It would be a complete waste of time, until you are able to get a consensus and define the term. 

Take a good look at the replies you've gotten. Everyone on threads like this is always going in a completely different direction. You will get people who are demanding to get exactly what they got in the past and immediately proceeded to trash. That lack of common vision the real problem. 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Arbitration would be fine for end game if they would actually populate it with only the mid to upper tier boss units, assassin, and specters while ditching the arbiter drones and low end mobs. Then force the reward system to not simply repeat endo and sculptures and actually rewarded something veteran players want in the form of hard to acquire mods, fully formed forma, kuva, catalysts, the Aura Forma, axe relics and riven mods especially at later end of the hour...Also it wouldn't hurt to look at what players want to play with their internal number..my guess is survival and excavation with the Infested and rotate those preferred game modes in over say defection and defense....

But they don't want end game player and veterans..we know how to be the ninja who plays for free, so from a business perspective that isn't your focus...getting new players is and I don't need Reaper Hunter to tell me that...but, here's the thing word of mouth is traveling fast that it's not worth the effort...oh it's fun..but your end game is basically playing another game while be depressed you have nothing to do in Warframe as a vet...and back in year 3 it was fun to help new players..but in year 7...you're over it...Well I am anyways..

I think eventually DE will release Railjack and it will be fine for a bit..but we're on the downward slide if DE continues to kill the reward and difficulty loop due to the vocal dissent and dissatisfaction permeating their IP of late...And they have to stop with the going only half way on an idea like the echoes of Umbra...

You put three Umbral Forma, a tomato, and a Aura Mod on a frame..that frame should go full Umbra forever..not 24 hours...That would give Nightwave far more importance for players especially vets farming in arbitration for the last component...

Right now Warframe is getting hammered by content creators due to lack of content and Youtube just getting destroyed by old media and their cash cow is dead on the ground...They know they are going back into the 9-5 labor market if they don't do something...And to be honest I'm glad to see some of them go since it was frat house of drama kids acting as if they were the A-crowd...Nature abhors a vacuum...other content creators will fill those gaps...but only if DE gets it together on the cheese in front of the hamster wheel..and soon..

Edited August 24, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Kaleeiv]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Arbitration would be fine for end game if they would actually populate it with only the mid to upper tier boss units, assassin, and specters while ditching the arbiter drones and low end mobs. Then force the reward system to not simply repeat endo and sculptures and actually rewarded something veteran players want in the form of hard to acquire mods, fully formed forma, kuva, catalysts, the Aura Forma, axe relics and riven mods especially at later end of the hour...Also it wouldn't hurt to look at what players want to play with their internal number..my guess is survival and excavation with the Infested and rotate those preferred game modes in over say defection and defense....

But they don't want end game player and veterans..we know how to be the ninja who plays for free, so from a business perspective that isn't your focus...getting new players is and I don't need Reaper Hunter to tell me that...but, here's the thing word of mouth is traveling fast that it's not worth the effort...oh it's fun..but your end game is basically playing another game while be depressed you have nothing to do in Warframe as a vet...and back in year 3 it was fun to help new players..but in year 7...you're over it...Well I am anyways..

I think eventually DE will release Railjack and it will be fine for a bit..but we're on the downward slide if DE continues to kill the reward and difficulty loop due to the vocal dissent and dissatisfaction permeating their IP of late...And they have to stop with the going only half way on an idea like the echoes of Umbra...

You put three Umbral Forma, a tomato, and a Aura Mod on a frame..that frame should go full Umbra forever..not 24 hours...That would give Nightwave far more importance for players especially vets farming in arbitration for the last component...

Right now Warframe is getting hammered by content creators due to lack of content and Youtube just getting destroyed by old media and their cash cow is dead on the ground...They know they are going back into the 9-5 labor market if they don't do something...And to be honest I'm glad to see some of them go since it was frat house of drama kids acting as if they were the A-crowd...Nature abhors a vacuum...other content creators will fill those gaps...but only if DE gets it together on the cheese in front of the hamster wheel..and soon..

idk, for me "end game" is what there is left to do when you finally have the equips you worked for. If end game if doing exactly what I've been doing to get my equips, why do I need them in the first place?

Edited August 24, 2019 by Kaleeiv

[bibmobello]

3 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Don't look at other games, cause none of them offer what Warframe does, so nothing you find in those games will work in Warframe without a major overhaul first (which will make Warframe become anything but Warframe).

Excuse what Warframe offers? Oh Yes it's free and it offers gambling addiction because to be honest  the only reason i still continue to play is finding some new riven and rolling it.

Edited August 24, 2019 by bibmobello

[project_eulogy]

End game...

Skill oriented...

I mean i've only been playing this for a few years now, and literally nothing is skill oriented because of the vast amount of frames and play styles. You can cheese everything with Ivara/Loki/Octavia. I mean everything. And dont forget Wukong and his cloud walker ability.

End Game is cosmetic. Has been for a while now. No matter what you guys ask for, it wont be good enough because your expectations are extremely skewed.

And in reference to the Echos of Umbra reward, i'm pretty hard pressed to keep playing for a useless reward that has a daily timer and then has to be recrafted all over again and i'm sure they will have stupidly sky high requirements for crafting.

Gauss is a weird Volt and then we have the Rhino/Hildy Sumo child. I can't say i'm really excited. Railjack looks like it has the clunky controls of the old PS1 game Overboost when I got to beta test it. It was atrocious until they fixed the controls. IMO i feel like DE needs a new set of eyes and ears. They have a drove of content creators creating Tennogen that looks 1000x better than most everything they can think of to put out. Sometimes a company needs to shed its skin because the old skin is forming cancer.

[Corvid]

3 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

which will make Warframe become anything but Warframe).

Actually, it would make Warframe more like Warframe. Namely, the relatively balanced game that existed before Forma and Corrupted mods came and snapped the game in two. The game where powers had impact because they couldn't be spammed without thought, and there were actual choices to be made when modding (the only exception being the prevalence of Rainbow Builds). It may not have been perfect, but I'd say it was a much better foundation than what we have now.

The reason I want the game rebalanced is because I want the game I fell in love with back, and I imagine I'm not the only one.

[Gabbynaru]

7 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Excuse what Warframe offers? Oh Yes it's free and it offers gambling addiction because to be honest  the only reason i still continue to play is finding some new riven and rolling it.

That's on you, buddy. Please get help, don't let a worthless video game ruin your life!

[bibmobello]

23 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

That's on you, buddy. Please get help, don't let a worthless video game ruin your life!

I am not saying it's ruining my life, moreover  considering it's a good way to spend your own free time but we must be honest sometimes, the gameplay lacks some important prerequisites an action game must have.

Edited August 24, 2019 by bibmobello

[Gabbynaru]

3 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

the gameplay lacks some important prerequisites an action game must have.

And yet this is the most fun and relaxing action game I have ever played, with no other action game coming even close. All the other action games copy one another, while Warframe does its own thing, and that's what makes Warframe so successful. I think you guys need to broaden your horizons and accept Warframe for what it is rather than let yourselves be blinded and have your tastes dictated and limited by the AAA hype machine

31 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Actually, it would make Warframe more like Warframe. Namely, the relatively balanced game that existed before Forma and Corrupted mods came and snapped the game in two. The game where powers had impact because they couldn't be spammed without thought, and there were actual choices to be made when modding (the only exception being the prevalence of Rainbow Builds). It may not have been perfect, but I'd say it was a much better foundation than what we have now.

The reason I want the game rebalanced is because I want the game I fell in love with back, and I imagine I'm not the only one.

I don't remember such a time, but then again, I'm not a grand master, I bit late to the party. Warframe for me has always been this power fantasy. I know that, as a noob, I was getting my ass handed to me, but I wouldn't say that's the Warframe experience. Everyone gets owned as a noob, we all have to learn how the game works, and when I did, Warframe was a power fantasy. That's what I want. That's Warframe for me. What you say there, that wasn't in the game for long. So that's not the game. The game has been following the same direction for the past 6 years or something, holding onto an unpolished, directionless, desperate version of the game as "The Real Warframe" is silly. The Real Warframe is the one that has a proper direction, the power fantasy one. Yours is a failed fragment of history, nothing more.