Can we fix Limbo, everyone hates him?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

Everyone hates Limbo. You might like to play as him, but you never want to play with him.

I mean, he has his uses, and can be a lifesaver in very specific situations and a player who knows what they're doing, but 9 times out of 10 when a Limbo turns up it's time to quit the mission.

Especially when most Limbo players just sit on the objective and endlessly pop Cataclysm. I swear they think they're being helpful, instead of annoying. It's not their fault, Limbo is designed to troll the team.

The rule appears to be: if a Limbo player pops Cataclysm and doesn't immediately cancel it (and double of they have long duration, or even worse its augment) everyone quits on the next round or makes for the exit. There must be Limbo mains out there wondering why everyone quits early.

There's no need for this. Limbo is a fun frame to play, there's just no need for his kit to ruin everyone else's day.

So, simple fix: make all Limbo's player effects only affect him...

Update: OK, so that wasn't a simple fix, but we found a better way: allies can cancel out of Banish or Limbo's passive portals by rolling, and there's precedent for this with other frames (e.g. Volt's speed). This should apply to Cataclysm too: roll and they move out of the rift and see all enemies as being out of the rift too. Limbo and any players that want to be in the rift don't roll, and see exactly what they do now.

Edited September 23, 2019 by (XB1)KayAitch
Clarification following 2 pages of discussion to avoid new replies that only respond to the original post

[Asphyxxia]

Let's just do a mechanic touch up instead of letting players figure out how to play as and with Limbo. Yeah, great idea, brilliant. ^_s

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

As a melee player 99% of the time, and a solo player 99% of the time, the few times I played Interception or Defense with a public party, and a Limbo was present, I was very happy, and was not inconvenienced in the least. Maybe he's only trouble for gun users? Because I never saw a problem whatsoever.

 

 

[Loza03]

Uh... a good chunk of people are just fine with him, at least when he's played well. And I, being a Limbo main, have been on plenty of missions where people have been just fine with my presence. Presumably, because I go out of my way to avoid messing with other players.

It's just that he's entirely disincentivised from being played well. Y'know, like most of the frames in the game who have button input in > unlimited power out builds. Limbo has stasis. Stasis turns off anything that doesn't have ability immunity or nullification. Why would you not use it to its maximum effect, which is to say, as much range and duration as possible since that is the most efficient way to play him in most situations since, when in effect, nothing will ever hurt you, your team or the objective? Except then it's being annoying to everyone else because there's a pretty big chance they came into the game to play it and this shame on the riftmaster's association decided 'no, enemies basically don't exist anymore'.

Limbo highlights this issue, but is far from the only offender. A chunk of players hate nukeframes for the same reason, myself included, they remove other people's gameplay without any effort. You're not being outplayed by some master at the game, some random arbitrarily decided that you don't get to fight enemies anymore because they pushed some buttons. Limbo just happens to not have the 'it makes the mission go faster' excuse that nukeframes have.

Besides, this change doesn't stop map-choking cataclysms from halting the game, because players are still going to have to run a marathon to kill everything.

 

That's not to say Limbo has his own problems unique to him because he does. But those can be fixed without compromising his core theme (divide and conquer) by simply having ways for the other players to decide when they want to go in the rift and some kind of half-state when using consoles or near cataclysms edge to deal with the annoying 'flickering enemies' effect.

[VisionAndVoice]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Everyone hates Limbo. You might like to play as him, but you never want to play with him.

Speak for yourself and only for yourself.

 

41 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Especially when most Limbo players just sit on the objective and endlessly pop Cataclysm. I swear they think they're being helpful, instead of annoying. It's not their fault, Limbo is designed to troll the team.

The rule appears to be: if a Limbo player pops Cataclysm and doesn't immediately cancel it (and double of they have long duration, or even worse its augment) everyone quits on the next round or makes for the exit. There must be Limbo mains out there wondering why everyone quits early.

Literally never saw that happening.

 

41 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

make all Limbo's player effects only affect him.

Hell no.

[(XBOX)Peqoudaboni]

Players new to using Limbo can be a minor inconvenience but you can just tell them politely in chat if they're spamming banish or doing something annoying. I've only seen someone truly upset over a limbo once and that was when I was playing as limbo and had absolutely no idea what I was doing because it was before the little warframe ability tips. 

Limbo isn't the problem and it's not the fault of new players using him, try to help them out like you should anyone else.

 

[WhiteMarker]

48 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Everyone hates Limbo.

You are wrong. Your thread ended with that sentence.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

As a melee player 99% of the time, and a solo player 99% of the time, the few times I played Interception or Defense with a public party, and a Limbo was present, I was very happy

Yes, and if I'm playing a mostly abilities frame (like Saryn) it's OK too.

20 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

a good chunk of people are just fine with him, at least when he's played well

I'm fine with him, when he's played well. The problem is that in most public groups (and maybe this is a console thing) he really isn't.

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Limbo highlights this issue, but is far from the only offender. A chunk of players hate nukeframes for the same reason, myself included, they remove other people's gameplay without any effort

It's not the nuke that's the problem, it's the rift immunity. It's the Defence rounds that take twice as long because I can't shoot anybody or the remote Cataclysm on an empty (except for enemies) Interception node or the cancelled Sortie/Nightmare hack from a Limbo player that thinks the rift helps.

25 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

simply having ways for the other players to decide when they want to go in the rift and some kind of half-state when using consoles or near cataclysms edge to deal with the annoying 'flickering enemies' effect

This would do too - if I could dodge and go back to shooting everything that would be fine.

21 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Literally never saw that happening

Really, it's the rote for every Limbo I see: a wild Limbo appears, everyone gives them benefit of the doubt, then Cataclysm, still Cataclysm, and now we're all at the exit or quitting on the next round.

It doesn't happen when I play Limbo, but then I know when and when not to use Cataclysm, and there are other Limbo players out there who know the basics, but (on X1 at least) the majority seem to think Cataclysm is always useful.

25 minutes ago, (XB1)Peqoudaboni said:

Limbo isn't the problem and it's not the fault of new players using him, try to help them out like you should anyone else

I do, and have, many times. But X1 so few mics and fewer keyboards. Just about anything you can type out mid mission is not going to come across as constructive feedback.

Limbo is the problem. The new players are learning, and you can't see why he's a problem by playing as him. From the inside he just looks powerful, it's only by playing with other players that you learn how his kit affects others.

26 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

You are wrong. Your thread ended with that sentence

Thanks for extending my thread by another post 😉

[(XBOX)Peqoudaboni]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It doesn't happen when I play Limbo, but then I know when and when not to use Cataclysm, and there are other Limbo players out there who know the basics, but (on X1 at least) the majority seem to think Cataclysm is always useful.

You're stating that when you play Limbo you're useful because you know when and when not to use Cataclysm and you state that it seems the majority think it's always useful, playing into my narrative that it's because not everyone knows how to play him.

6 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I do, and have, many times. But X1 so few mics and fewer keyboards. Just about anything you can type out mid mission is not going to come across as constructive feedback.

Limbo is the problem. The new players are learning, and you can't see why he's a problem by playing as him. From the inside he just looks powerful, it's only by playing with other players that you learn how his kit affects others.

You must be patient when helping others, I use a wireless keyboard or sometimes I plug in my microphone. Even if the other party doesn't have a microphone your own voice will come across to them assuming their volume isn't muted.

You go onto say Limbo is the problem because new players don't understand how he affects others, but this would again imply that it's just because they're learning the frame still. If you don't try telling them how to better play Limbo in a constructive way then you're not helping the problem of new players getting adjusted to the frame. I play on Xbox 1 myself and I don't encounter the issue of players not communicating, often times people ask for help. 

As I said based on my own experience playing as Limbo and often times playing with randoms and new players, the issue isn't Limbo's kit. It's as you said new players learning, but it's not their fault if they're unaware. Make them aware in a non rude and kind way.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

29 minutes ago, (XB1)Peqoudaboni said:

playing into my narrative that it's because not everyone knows how to play him

We entirely agree on that.

29 minutes ago, (XB1)Peqoudaboni said:

It's as you said new players learning, but it's not their fault if they're unaware. Make them aware in a non rude and kind way.

That too.

This isn't about players, it's about the design of Limbo. 

There's just no need for his abilities to troll other players.

Mess up with Harrow, Revenant, Garuda, or any other tricky to master frame and you just become less effective, mess up with Limbo and you can fail the mission for everyone (as one did to me with a max range Cataclysm across the cells in a Rescue once).

There's no need for that barrier to learning. It doesn't add anything to Limbo players, it doesn't add anything to the game.

Yeah, we should be understanding and helpful, but there shouldn't be this issue with Limbo's design in the first place. Frames' abilities should always be buffs or neutral, why does Limbo have the only abilities that both nerf guns and locks out certain objectives?

 

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'm fine with him, when he's played well. The problem is that in most public groups (and maybe this is a console thing) he really isn't.

And as I point out - yeah, and due to poor design that permeates a lot more than just Limbo, doing that is the wrong choice most of the time.

2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It's not the nuke that's the problem, it's the rift immunity. It's the Defence rounds that take twice as long because I can't shoot anybody or the remote Cataclysm on an empty (except for enemies) Interception node or the cancelled Sortie/Nightmare hack from a Limbo player that thinks the rift helps.

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

This would do too - if I could dodge and go back to shooting everything that would be fine.

Uh... You can.

You can leave the rift at any time by rolling, provided you aren't in a cataclysm, but in a cataclysm either the border is clearly defined or (to many people's chagrin, including my own) so large that pretty much everything's affected anyway. You just can't enter the rift on your own, which is my problem. Plus, your spoiler mode never goes into the rift, which is a decent enough workaround for the time being.

[peterc3]

3 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

So, simple fix: make all Limbo's player effects only affect him. Everyone else sees that enemies are affected but can shoot them as normal, and we don't even see the horrible annoying bubble of washed out smeared enemies. Limbo gets the whole rift thing to manage, nobody else should have to worry about it.

This is not even remotely a simple fix, or even a fix for that matter. Increased energy regen and immunity from enemies outside the Rift aren't issues for lots of frames, usually a huge boon.

[TenebraeAeterna]

After the change that allows people to just roll out of limbo, the hatred towards him seems to be, more or less, a meme focused around a lack of people who know how to play him..................myself included, as I've not even gotten a chance to try him out yet. Not really something you can fix through augments to the frame, without destroying what makes the frame good and enjoyable to begin with.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

46 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Uh... You can.

You can leave the rift at any time by rolling, provided you aren't in a cataclysm,

Yeah, but you can make Cataclysm both massive and last for ages - I mean if you could roll out of Cataclysm the way that you roll out of the rift that would totally fix it.

35 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Increased energy regen and immunity from enemies outside the Rift aren't issues for lots of frames, usually a huge boon.

My emphasis: you say "usually" but this is rarely the case. Unless we set up a team comp with a Limbo most frames will be set up to survive without that. 

We don't need energy regen or immunity (we'll have Zenurik, or Arcane Energise, or loads of pizzas, and healing abilities of all kinds) we need to be killing enemies fast. It's help we don't need with a cost we don't want to pay from a learning player who doesn't get any of that.

Yeah, at very high levels that Cataclysm can be a lifesaver, but that's situational. I'm happy to team up with a competent Limbo and take on Sorties, Arbitrations and various endless modes. Those aren't the players we're talking about here.

We're talking about the most common type of Limbo (on X1 anyway) who pops Cataclysm on every Defence (inc Hydron where everyone's OP and levelling), every Interception, every Disruption (even though Demolysts break it and free everything when they get there) and every objective where being in the rift bubble is helpful or not.

58 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This is not even remotely a simple fix, or even a fix for that matter

OK, fair enough, how about a compromise - what if the roll that gets you out of the rift also cancelled the Cataclysm bubble for you. If you want the advantages of the bubble, fine, if you don't then roll and get back to killing.

[Aesthier]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

OK, fair enough, how about a compromise - what if the roll that gets you out of the rift also cancelled the Cataclysm bubble for you. If you want the advantages of the bubble, fine, if you don't then roll and get back to killing.

^ This. I want this!

To be able to go back to killing enemies no matter what side of the bubble they are on.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Aesthier

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

Id rather a limbo in my squad then khora, just saying. Its easier to shoot a target frozen in time then one flailing around a metal ball cage

[TheKazz91]

So I wouldn't say you're entirely right not would I say you're entirely wrong. There have been days where I've queued into multiple public groups in a row that all had at least 1 max range/duration limbo player and it did honestly get to the point where I would literally start asking what the limbo players range was as soon as I saw that they were playing limbo and if they said anything over 150 I would immediately abort the mission. That said on anything that isn't defense I really don't mind limbo simply because in pretty much every other mission type except defense and interception you are moving around a lot and I can just leave and do my own thing and interception is spread out enough that the same concept applies I can just leave limbo alone to do limbo things on what ever capture point he decides to stop time around And I just only go to that point of things get spoopy and I'm about to die. Maybe the one exception to this is if I'm actually just trying not farm resources in a survival

[PsiWarp]

Well not exactly hate, just heavily dislike when you get caught on the wrong side of the Rift. Weapon attacks "suddenly" useless + objects "suddenly" not able to directly interact with, can be an annoyance.

You are expected to roll out of Banish or go Operator/have played the War Within when these things happen.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb (XB1)KayAitch:

OK, fair enough, how about a compromise - what if the roll that gets you out of the rift also cancelled the Cataclysm bubble for you. If you want the advantages of the bubble, fine, if you don't then roll and get back to killing.

Wait! This would allow my snowhlobe frost to destroy the nullifer bubbles, before they reach me. And this inside the rift bubble! Please DE, we need this.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

9 hours ago, Aesthier said:

10 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

OK, fair enough, how about a compromise - what if the roll that gets you out of the rift also cancelled the Cataclysm bubble for you. If you want the advantages of the bubble, fine, if you don't then roll and get back to killing.

^ This. I want this!

To be able to go back to killing enemies no matter what side of the bubble they are on

Exactly!

8 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Id rather a limbo in my squad then khora, just saying. Its easier to shoot a target frozen in time then one flailing around a metal ball cage

The flailing is annoying too, but it doesn't stop me killing enemies and often there's extra loot. She can also slow Demolysts.

It not that Khora doesn't have issues, her powers can be obtrusive, but Limbo's are blocking.

2 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Wait! This would allow my snowhlobe frost to destroy the nullifer bubbles, before they reach me. And this inside the rift bubble! Please DE, we need this

Yeah, this too. I don't think a lot of Limbo players realise that Cataclysm is very weak against nullifying enemies because it stops you from killing them before they cancel the ability.

Meanwhile most other defence abilities let you shoot out (snow globe, Strangledome, Vitrify, etc) so you actually get a chance to defend them.

There have definitely been missions where I started leaving Nullifiers until last, because they stopped the Limbo and let me mop everything else up.

[Birdframe_Prime]

There's a very simple problem with this concept of 'just have his powers affect only him', and that's the fact that they affect everything, not just the other players.

Limbo's CC is the time stop, that literally only works if enemies are in the Rift. The act of placing enemies in the Rift means they are not affected by players in the regular plane.

This is, and I know it might seem a strange concept, the actual cost of having a complete and total CC that makes you literally immune to those enemies and everything they do, placing objectives and other players into a completely invulnerable state while the duration lasts.

If, suddenly, the Rift plane status meant nothing, if players could freely interact with everything in the Rift, that would mean that Limbo would automatically have to take a direct nerf to his functional power in order to balance that out.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Birdframe_Prime:

This is, and I know it might seem a strange concept, the actual cost of having a complete and total CC that makes you literally immune to those enemies and everything they do, placing objectives and other players into a completely invulnerable state while the duration lasts.

Just to mention. It's maybe a total CC (enemies are affected, when they enter the the ability range), but it's not a complete CC. (Endless CC with no vulnerability time.)

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Limbo's CC is the time stop, that literally only works if enemies are in the Rift. The act of placing enemies in the Rift means they are not affected by players in the regular plane

Stopping enemies is fine, making it so that I can't kill them is useless.

At very high levels hard CC still has a place. Disarming Loki, Nyx, Vauban are still welcome up against the level 200 enemies, but for the vast majority of content, all the star chart, every mission type except maybe Arbitrations it's a simple fact that DPS > CC.

Limbo's CC is very powerful, but it's a Faustian deal - the enemies are stopped, but so are you. Not everyone wants to make that particular bargain, but Cataclysm makes that choice for everyone.

Thanks for the help Limbo, but we don't want or need your CC, not in this level 40 relic Defence, not in this level 60 Sortie Rescue, and so on.

Good CC should buy us time to kill tougher enemies, but that isn't really the deal with Cataclysm - it's more of a stall: here's some extra time during which they won't kill you but you'll find it harder to kill them. That has its uses, but it's very situational.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If, suddenly, the Rift plane status meant nothing, if players could freely interact with everything in the Rift, that would mean that Limbo would automatically have to take a direct nerf to his functional power in order to balance that out.

Why? Limbo wouldn't see a difference. Enemies wouldn't see a difference. It's us other players that hate it now.

And it will be better for Limbo players. They must wonder now why so many players they matchmake with quit Hydron after 5 rounds, Survival on 5 mins, Extraction after 2 drills, etc. Maybe they don't, maybe they come here and moan about casuals.

Either way, if we don't have to take the stalling deal that the Limbo player has chosen, then we won't quit out. Everyone wins.

[Xepthrichros]

I don't hate him. He needs no fixes.

And what region do you play it where you get this "Everyone leaves"?

In my region, everyone stays. Also, most people that pick Limbo in my region have the sense to not do max range, but instead 50% range - to just protect the objective, and the rest of the area is free real estate for everyone else to go about their business. And even when the max range Limbo appears now and then, everyone just switches to melee. It's called cooperation for a reason. Most normal people know how to adapt to what their randomly assigned team mate brings.

If anything, Limbo ought to get his bullet freeze back. That was the most fun thing he had, but it got removed just cos people call whatever they dislike as "Trolling" 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

55 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Also, most people that pick Limbo in my region have the sense to not do max range, but instead 50% range - to just protect the objective, and the rest of the area is free real estate for everyone else to go about their business

There are lots of Limbo players out there that know this. We're not talking about them. Limbo can definitely be played well, and new Limbo players are given the benefit of the doubt - this isn't some prejudice against Limbo.

They pop a massive, long lasting Cataclysm, then we all quit.

It depends on the content - in Sorties maybe just 1 in 5 Limbo players trolls, but in relics it's at least 4 out of 5, Gifts of the Lotus almost all.

57 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

And what region do you play it where you get this "Everyone leaves"?

UK, X1. I think console has more casual players and more problematic matchmaking, but there's not a lot in it.

58 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

And even when the max range Limbo appears now and then, everyone just switches to melee

Yeah, if we brought a melee/ability build. My Saryn won't care, my Mirage is going to quit.

This perception could be very frame based - if you're maining Wukong you're not going to notice a accidental troll Limbo, if you're Harrow it's going to wreck your balance.