(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[RedPixel22]

Please allow larvalings to spawn on Uranus and Kuva Fortress. The "archwing" requirement for those stages is a stupid barrier for them. They are still normal missions.

[PunishedWelfare]

I didn't think it would come to this, but here we go.

 

The Lich grind is unbelievably absurd.

Grinding liches is tedious and extremely unrewarding with the side of very annoying combat mechanics. It takes roughly 3 hours being bored to death on the hunt for murmur to defeat a single lich. Every single time I generate a lich I only look forward to ripping its throat out and finally getting the cicrus over with. Just to start it all over again and get what I want... The system makes me sick, but if I want to get the weapons or ephemeras with laughably low drop chance I have to deal with it. After I'm done collecting stuff I'm staying away from liches as far as humanly possible.

That said, I want to bring more attention to something that is one step too far. This is DE spitting in our faces.

We can't reject our liches after generating them. No way to get rid of them without doing the unbelievably tedious task of converting or vanquishing. We can't make them go away when we already have the same weapon with the same element but lower percentage. They have no weapon of interest, no ephemera, nor are they useful in combat. What are they good for? Absolutely nothing. But DE still decides that we have to work in order to get nothing. Is this an out of season April fools joke? 

I am not enjoying any part of the lich system. The only reason I want to do it is to get the gear and MR, which I'm confident is what many other people can say. For now I'm completely disappointed as well as disgusted. The current state of this system is a joke and I'm not touching it again until DE becomes serious about it.

 

This is what I wanted to say, but there are far more things mentioned by lots of other people that need to be changed and I completely agree with them. I just hope I don't have to bring that stuff up again and I expect DE to finally understand what needs to be done. The Steam Awards aren't given for being out of touch with your community, after all.

[Renarde-Louve]

Farming murmurs takes way too long.

when it was first released it was 50/50/50. people were saying it was too long, than they changed it to 40/40/70, it was oksish to me.

But then they changed it again to 36/40/84...Thanks DE, now it take forever.

I mean, on my last lich the mod which was going 1st in my order was the last to be revealed.
By the time the mod was finally shown, I tried 6 out of 8. 2 of them were the 2 mods murmurs revealed.

In short when the last mod was unlocked I had only 2 mod left to try.

 

I just dont see the point of reveling me the last mod when I had only 2 remaining mods to try.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

8th lich done here (2 duplicates). The vets in my alliance had a discussion yesterday about this and most of them either wanted to kill themselves or boycott the system and game due to the absurd grind.

How to fix the grind:

1 - Cut the murmur grind alot. Should be 15-20-30 or something similar. I should not have to run pointless starchart missions for four plus hours each time I want to kill a lich. Also make failed lich kills reward even more murmurs.

2 - Allow us to trade Liches we don't want without converting them first. We should never have to to the whole process for guns we don't want.

3 - We should be able to influence the wpn they spawn with by killing the larvling with a specific wpn (like killing with Kohm to get a kuva Kohm lich, etc).

4 - Lich missions need better integration into the game. I should be playing the missions I want and making my own progression towards the system in sorties, fissures , etc. You also need to lower the amount of nodes , because imho right now 75 percent of the time I'm alone on those nodes because the player base is split all over starchart. This feature will be totally dead in a month once people get their guns and never touch it again. Just adding thralls as regular enemies outside of lich territory would help. People should only have to go to lich controlled area when they want to fight their lich.

5 - You need to rewards other players with murmurs when they help you take out your lich. This would promote actually fighting them as a team effort.

6- Liches should not kill you when you fail till they are LVL 5. Should probably be less bullet spongy at LVL 5 too.

7 - Kuva wpns should not give mastery after LVL 30. Asking your vets to put 65 formas in the trash for 13000 mastery points is imho evil. Should change it so only first forma gives 1000 XP, then the rest is optional (instead of 200 XP per forma).

8 - Fix the HP values on terminals, defense targets, excavators to take into account the fact we are fighting LVL 100 enemies and are often stuck solo since starchart is too big and deserted, plus the fact we often have a lich during the defense part. Sucks so bad to fail a mission in seconds since enemies spawn In all directions and you cannot kill or cc them fast enough before they melt the target from afar with guns. Had excavators with 2500 HP vs LVL 115 grinders, not a pretty sight.

9 - Liches need more variance. They all start blending together after 2-3. Should probably give each one less voice clips to make each one feel more unique.... Instead of five male ones saying "Friend, it's been too long"

10 - Should be another way to find the order of parazon mods than trial and error. Special spy mission once you have all three murmurs unlocked ?

Overall, I'm still salty you managed to turn such a cool concept as fighting a personal nemesis into the worse grind In all of Warframe.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[IIDMOII]

There has to be a way to skip your current lich. 

Being forced through the entire process for a reward you don't want in order for it to reset seems punishing. 

On the other hand, being able to reset it would kind of defeat the purpose too. 

 

Suggestion;

How about a system similar to how your warframe dictates the elemental bonus, the weapon you kill the larvaling with will influence weapon type?

Normal weapons such as the quartakk could directly spawn the kuva variant. Or you could use a kuva variant for a chance at a better roll on a duplicate.

At least that we we would have some control.

 

 

 

[Renarde-Louve]

More about the murmurs, I alreadu said hte murmurs needed (36/60/84) was already ridiculous, but to add insult to injure, it was be fun if those little guy that give murmurs would spawn more often. Just did 2 spy mission, in the first, I saw 4 guys, and 2 in the second…

[Kingsmount]

It can't be overstated how unenjoyable the lich system is.  And from all I can tell, deliberately so.

You literally use psychology against your own system,  making it so nobody wants to engage with it and so many people refuse to stab their lich.  You bash your head into a wall and commit suicide a dozen times,  taking at least all afteroon of grinding,  and all for nothing. The only reward is an "Okay" weapon you probably already have after a certain point,  probably has a garbage low elemental bonus,  and you even more likely don't even have the slot for it anyway.

 

• The Lich system could so easily be extremely satisfying, made both enjoyable and rewarding,  if Liches multiplied all stolen resources by the lich's level.  All of which drops as a physical drop in a loot shower similar to killing a Tusk Thumper.   This can also mean that all allies can also loot the drops, since they're universal loot drops right there in the level making the system even more enjoyable and cooperative.
• And then stop forcing us to commit suicide.   Remove the awful forced kill. Make the parazon fail as normal, but the lich does not kill you- which a forced death like that is never okay in any game, even in story focused narratives they still feel awful let alone a power fantasy game like this.  Instead you can show off your fanciful lich kill moves by letting lich's grab downed players to finish them off forcing a respawn instead of reviving with AI priority towards rushing downed players.   This would also make them more of a threat and they'd feel more badass, and like they earned the kill instead of clunky game design forcing a death on you.  The lich dies after it is downed 3 times as it works now, the only difference is the stab isn't suicide. And you may or may not be able to test the other two runes.  Then when a lich dies without being properly stabbed,  have a kuva cloud fly out from their body.
• Optional bonus:  Reduce the murmur grind to something more like 20/20/40,  but this depends on how rewarding you make the system to the point of not being required if the liches were actually worth messing with with the above rewards suggestion.  As-is,  it's so unrewarding I'd say 10/10/30.

 

These two changes would infinitely improve liches and make it a source of enjoyment and fun instead of (Unrewarding) tedium and frustration.  It'd also give a purpose to the random (And another negative player punishment) gimmick of stealing our resources.    It'd become something we're actually glad to see instead,  and are happy to engage with.

 

 

It'd also be nice if liches actually looked like liches and not generic Grineer that can be hard to distinguish from other grineer if it weren't for the red marker.    Taller,  more of an angular silhouette,  and they could float off the ground.  Boom,  unique appearance and a more intimidating presence.   Hell, just take the current liches and make them float with some kuva cloud effects around their legs.   More face options would help as well,  including faces that look more ghoul like,  as well as some that are more skull-like. 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Kingsmount

[IIDMOII]

.....Or they could scrap the entire thing and just have a new currency drop from requiem relics. Straight up buy the weapon you want from a vendor and roll the the elemental bonus into the 5x forma.

[Ham_Grenabe]

I'm not going to read a bazillion posts, so this may have been already suggested, but...hey, DE: Can you make it so we can decorate our orbiter or dojo with converted Liches? I have a couple* with low-watt weaponry that nobody's leaping to shell out plat for - can I make them sweep the dry dock or walk the kubrow or something?

 

* Yes, I swore my first lich would be my last. I was wrong, because I can't resist the slot machine. Sigh. 

[Mover-NeRo]

OK i am usually very calm when it come to RNG but this is my limit.

So i was on my 11th Lich ..no problems so far, usualy took me about 2-3 hours.  But this one....after i died 7 times and guessed all combinations wrong. I was left with last correct combination. Lich at full enraged bar...did not spawn for another 40 min !!! ... Played solo, full grp,  other ppl got the spawn, i was waiting ..nothing....

After i finally killed him i was not happy but angry. That was my last lich i was hunting , until some quality of life changes are made. This focused farming just to get rid of it and get shot at smt new is too much for me. And i was thru alooot of farming and bad RNG in Warframe. 

[Kurogumihime]

7 Liches kill here with 3 duplicates, all I can say is that my Carpal Tunnel is acting up and it's not fun. The grind is annoying since I AM FORCED to kill the Lich or spend forever with it nagging and stealing stuff off me. It's not fun. It was fun for the first few times but not when there's no point of killing them at this point. Can we send them to the farm or something like what we can do with unwanted pets? 3-5 hours mindless grind just trying to kill them for a dupe you don't want is not rewarding at all. Lastly the Murmur system F'ing suck.

DE says that they're a threat, but at the most they're just a nuisance. I hope that when Railjack drops and we can use them as our crew, I hope they actually do something useful.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Kurogumihime

[Kurogumihime]

On 2019-11-30 at 6:22 PM, ArcaneFrame said:

 spy - Lich can spawn and ruin vault. On all of these mission types, I usually have a 50/50 shot of not finding team mates, because they're avoided like the plague. 

 

The thing is though; the main reason you won't find people doing Spy missions that it's generally known that doing spy on pub is a bad idea. When I do my Kuva spy missions OR ANY spy missions, I set it to solo. It's not that people avoid it, it's that vets run it solo. There are honestly only a handful of people I trust to run spy with me. My suggestion is to learn how to run the normal missions on solo in under 6 minutes. It takes a bit of trial and error but by the time you figure out the gimmicks of each room, you would prefer to keep the spy missions in the Lich'es rotation because of how safer it is to run solo.

[v1ld_wf]

The real question to me is what happens to the Lich system as a whole.  Does it go the way of Archwing and get relegated to the backburner because it needs a lot of work and was pushed out right before a major major update in the shape of Empyrean?   Or does it get some investment even though Empyrean is going to suck up all the oxygen in the room for a good while?

My worry is that it will be the former - the Lich system needs a large amount of work and that it was pushed out right before an even bigger update, one that took center stage at Tennocon and in all the press, means that it will be neglected except for minor fixes for a long time.   DE have also historically shown they're willing to cut their losses and focus their efforts in what's working as opposed to what's not - not a bad thing usually, but this is a particularly intrusive system that thrusts itself into your game and face once active.

So please add a way to turn it off easily for those of us who don't wish to engage.  I don't want to have to hear this person repeat the same lines for months to come if possible.

[Ham_Grenabe]

2 hours ago, v1ld_wf said:

So please add a way to turn it off easily for those of us who don't wish to engage.  I don't want to have to hear this person repeat the same lines for months to come if possible.

I'd prefer being able to consign/abandon/no-reward-kill* a useless lich, but being able to just suspend an active lich - like deselecting an active quest, or whatever - would be a nice thing. Clear the lich nodes, go back to "normal game." Obviously you wouldn't make any progress on the lich, but being able to backburner it would be excellent. 

 

* For example, if you just want to be rid of the Lich, then they could do this:

1. You can kill it on the first encounter if you have 3 fully-charged requiem mods on your parazon. Doesn't matter which.

2. The kill destroys all 3 mods completely. You'll have to farm them again, or hope you have a dupe.

3. The kill gives no rewards. But it does get rid of a useless lich. 

(assume for the sake of lore that pouring all that requiem energy into a lich at once vaporizes the thing, including its gun, hence the "no rewards" part).

Edited December 3, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

I'm here on my 4th Lich, and I'm already starting to not care anymore. There are glaring issues with the system, which otherwise has a good concept. Here I'll highlight a few:

First of all, why are there only 2 Lich personalities? And why do only female liches get access to the smart, scheming one, while every male lich is a dumb annoyance that keeps calling me "friend" for no reason? As a male, it honestly feels insulting. 

Secondly: the Kuva liches always babble about coming back stronger once you kill them, except this never happens because you never kill them, at most you make them flee. So, there's a big discrepancy between lore and gameplay. 

Lastly and most importantly. The system is not rewarding in any way. Spending 3+ hours in order to get a single weapon that because of probability will likely be something you do not want (either a duplicate or an uninteresting weapon, as an example the only things I want are the new primary and maybe the kohm, which of course are yet to be seen in my experience) is just frustrating. Now I'm sure you have plans to add more rewards when empyrean comes out and the Lich system is expanded, but in the current iteration, unless you massively reduce the grind for murmurs, evergreen rewards from liches are needed. 
These could be: 
(3000 kuva + 1 forma blueprint)x The Lich's rank + a riven if it reaches rank 5 + (Lich's level) x 10% of all resources and credits stolen. 

Or something equally enticing. 

There are still positives with the system. For starters, the grab attack finally represents a mechanic that requires the player's attention and modifies his play style. I, rightfully, feel hesitant in engaging the Lich in close quarters, as a grab will probably end my chance at obtaining murmurs/killing the Lich by killing me and making him flee. It's also great that the liches have abilities of their own, but I feel they should be made more powerful in order to constitute a higher threat to the player. 

 

[vFlitz]

What baffles me is that after all this time, the system still actively punishes playing with friends.

Addition of kuva drops made playing with pubs worthwhile, but premade squads still suffer from the fact that you only get anger bar progress and your lich spawns if your lich has territory on the node. And unless everyone's liches are rank 5, that really isn't likely. That means less kuva for everyone and slower progress for everyone aside from the person who chose the mission.

This harms not only players who want to play with friends, but also streamers who play with their viewers - and since that's probably one of the main appeals of streams when it comes to a game like Warframe, it's a really disappointing situation. Ensuring something like this doesn't happen should have been a priority before the update even went live, and yet here we are.

On a side note, the way lich mission are implemented right now really doesn't look sustainable. Creating a second instance of the entire starchart that's only selectively and randomly available stretches the playerbase too thin. Maybe my location/connection are partly to blame, but I rarely get a full squad in lich mission pubs. Most of the time it ends up being just me or one more person at most.

Edited December 3, 2019 by vFlitz

[Ham_Grenabe]

57 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

What baffles me is that after all this time, the system still actively punishes playing with friends.

Addition of kuva drops made playing with pubs worthwhile, but premade squads still suffer from the fact that you only get anger bar progress and your lich spawns if your lich has territory on the node. And unless everyone's liches are rank 5, that really isn't likely. That means less kuva for everyone and slower progress for everyone aside from the person who chose the mission.

This harms not only players who want to play with friends, but also streamers who play with their viewers - and since that's probably one of the main appeals of streams when it comes to a game like Warframe, it's a really disappointing situation. Ensuring something like this doesn't happen should have been a priority before the update even went live, and yet here we are.

On a side note, the way lich mission are implemented right now really doesn't look sustainable. Creating a second instance of the entire starchart that's only selectively and randomly available stretches the playerbase too thin. Maybe my location/connection are partly to blame, but I rarely get a full squad in lich mission pubs. Most of the time it ends up being just me or one more person at most.

My experience is similar regarding the full-squad thing -- it's usually just two people for most things.

Although I've seen an interesting pattern: my liches have almost always started on Mars or Eris (every single one except on oddball Mercury starter), and the first couple missions I almost always get a full squad. Then it peters out for the rest. I don't know if they just tend to pick Mars or Eris for me, or what. 

[Raso719]

I think it would be swell if you could make your Litch go away without having to kill yourself in a failed assassination attempt. I also feel like their influence spreads too quickly once you start to get them very riled up as they will show up almost every attempt to locate the murmurs. Unless the intent is to convince you to only go murmur hunting sporadically or risk your Litch taking over the entire galaxy (which is dumb IMHO)

Aside from that and most of what others have said my biggest gripe is the lack of a Kuva Sobek. Why can't the Sobek get any love? No Wraith and no Kuva variant? Very sad....

[Chauvesouris]

I already mentionned this but giving a choice when genrerating Lich would be nice to tone down the bad rng when looking for a particuler weapon, my past 5 lich sequence is Seer-Brakk-Seer-Tonkor-Seer.. Not really better than having 3-5 seers in row.

[Ham_Grenabe]

39 minutes ago, Raso719 said:

I think it would be swell if you could make your Litch go away without having to kill yourself in a failed assassination attempt. I also feel like their influence spreads too quickly once you start to get them very riled up as they will show up almost every attempt to locate the murmurs. Unless the intent is to convince you to only go murmur hunting sporadically or risk your Litch taking over the entire galaxy (which is dumb IMHO)

Aside from that and most of what others have said my biggest gripe is the lack of a Kuva Sobek. Why can't the Sobek get any love? No Wraith and no Kuva variant? Very sad....

They'll level up if you clear all the nodes on a planet, too (at least as far as I recall from the wiki), so being sporadic won't stop them from getting all over everything--eventually you need to push them to a new planet just to get usable missions.

[Silvertap]

Seen how much kuva the lichs drop, i don't ses why worry that people will do lichs to farm kuva, so u could add kuva to lvl 5 lichs too iguess.

[H0B0Z]

This system has potential. There are some good points, but this is the internet, so I'm going to focus on the negatives. 😋

- I just need to get this off my chest. I hate the word "Murmur" like some people hate the word "Moist". DE is incredibly creative and comes up with off the wall names for some of the things in their universe. Kavats, Endo, Syandana, Kuva. or Lex is just Lex, but a pair of them...Aklex!!! Is "Murmur" really the best we could do here?

- The unifying theme of this whole new system is Kuva so the following things just get to me:

• Kuva Larvlings spawn in any level 20+ Grineer star chart mission but we all know what is going to happen. If you want to initiate a Kuva Lich, go run Adaro, and it's a done deal. Why is this not tied to the Kuva Fortress, Siphons, or Floods. The War Within is the prerequisite to the Kuva Lich System. It's where we're introduced to Kuva, The Kuva Fortress, The Queens, etc. If you can't complete Dekata solo, your gonna have a bad time with this content. So why not make the Kuva Fortress the barrier of entry.
• The new T5 Relics seem like an unnecessary new item / mechanic / RNG Layer for farming Requiem Mods. They just don't fit thematically imo. We already have Kuva Siphons and Kuva Guardians, why can't they drop Requiem Mods? Siphons / Floods need some love anyways to make them worth doing so have the two systems have a little overlap. The Kuva Liches themselves could have a chance to drop them on a failed attempt or even the Eximus Kuva Thralls. They could all drop these mods or at least have a chance to. Lets just use whats already in game and ditch one extra level of RNG. If DE is worried this will put too many mods in the hands of players too easily then make them single use and have them be consumed even on failed attempts to shiv your Kuva Lich. They could also come up with more goofy symbols to dilute the pool a bit more.
• When I finally nail my Lich with the proper Requiems I want to watch the Kuva Clouds leak out as they beg for mercy and those Kuva Clouds need to land in my Inventory.

- The "Meat Head" personality type is obnoxious. Between Ordis and every NPC on Fortuna, I think we have the comic relief and cartoonish characters covered. Can we just not? 

- I see a lot of grumbling about "the murmur grind". This is amusing because as far a I can tell, a turbo nerd can complete an entire Kuva Lich cycle in a day. Someone that might squeeze in an hour or two in the evenings or a straight up Weekend Warrior could probably knock one out in a week/weekend. If anything, DE needs to slow this whole thing way down. The Lich system was sold as a long term adversary. By the time Empyrean has been completely rolled out everyone is going to have most the Kuva weapons and the Try Hards / Whales will have the all the weapons with the best rolls and best Rivens too. Then we'll have to listen to cries of, "muh content.", a couple weeks after Empyrean launches. 

- Related to slowing things down. The Kuva Lich spreads out way too fast, offering up a plethora of nodes with which to farm "murmurs". Why not tie it to the Kuva Fortress and it's affected planets? Once you clear all the nodes and run all the siphons and floods, you're limited to the Fortress itself until it moves again. Once Empyrean is rolled out then your Lich can hop in their capital ship and finally un-tether from the Fortress.

- What is the point of "killing" my Lich before I have all the Requiems? By the time I get all my requiems sorted and in the right order my Kuva Lich is a bullet sponge, and in exchange for what? My "murmur" progress filled up a little faster and I got a little extra Kuva? If this leveling up process is going to be a thing, I need a better reason to do it. Like an extra percent, per level, to the damage modifier on my Kuva Weapon so even a poor roll gets a 5% increase if I decide to take on the extra burden. Otherwise, I'll just grind "murmurs" solo and avoid my Lich when he spawns. When I finally have all the Requiems...I'll smash my Level 1 Lich like a trash mob.

- The new Parazon Finishers and animations are pretty cool but when I Parazon a Kuva Thrall I want to stab them right in the dome and imagine my space ninja magic is extracting the information I need right out of their Frontal Lobe. *See my first point and change "Requiem Murmur" to "Requiem Cerebral Trace". 

- I have no idea what determines the level of enemies I'm going to encounter during a Kuva Lich Mission. I entered a mission with a host that apparently had a much higher level Lich than my own. I was expecting level 60-70 enemies and was met with level 100-110 enemies.

- This new content needs an associated quest to walk you through your first Lich. I was doing an Excavation with a level 1 Lich and associated enemies and super low MR player spawned in and immediately brought in their level 5 Lich. Neither of us were equipped for it and it promptly wrecked our excavator. I left to spawn the next excavator and the poor dude stayed behind to keep fighting their Lich. They promptly blew through all their revives and left the mission. That must have been very frustrating for them.

Like I said, this new system has a ton of potential. DE just needs to iterate on it quite a bit before the full Empyrean roll out goes live. There is a huge gap between what was depicted at Tennocon and what was delivered with "The Old Blood". But then there is also the possibility that "The Old Blood" is the way it is because they wanted to beta test it a bit before merging it with Empyrean. 

My two cents. 

 

 

 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

1 minute ago, H0B0Z said:

go run Adaro

Why would you choose the highest level Exterminate when you could choose a low level Capture? 

[MixtheBlender]

You guys later made Valence Transfer, which is an acceptable method of dealing with duplicates. No, it did not solve the actual problem. We are still getting weapons of with the lowest bonus of 25% when there is the possibility of the max bonus of 60%. Do you know how large the 25%-60% range is? Getting anything less than 45% is basically a giant waste of my time because I am just grinding without getting anything out of the entire process and it's not fun.

No one is gonna use Valence Transfer if all they got was 25% bonus 99% of the time because trash is still trash no matter how many times you overwrite it. Do you know how depressing it is to get a lich with lowest bonus that you don't want and that lich doesn't even have ephemera? It's like someone purposefully feeding you feces.

How about give us an upgrade system call Valence Upgrade?

• Let us feed those duplicated trash weapons to our kuva weapon to increase its bonus at a FIXED rate. That way we don't feel like grinding for trash and instead, we collecting materials to make our bad kuva weapon stronger gradually.

[H0B0Z]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Why would you choose the highest level Exterminate when you could choose a low level Capture? 

Adaro is the only node I've found that will 100% give me a Kuva Larvaling, without fail.