(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[(PSN)KresTias]

Long story short: got lich, before 1 circle is done he spawned twice, he spawned 4 times b4 2nd circle is finished. Once i begun farm 3rd circle he had spawn rate 40min-1h20min between each spawn. Its 6 HOURS of non stop grind already just for 1 lich. His rage meter were at max before i finished 3rd circle.

My hands are shaking bcz of anger. Its ridiculous how much effort i have to put into this bs grind because of S#&$ rng.

On top of S#&$ rng i have to deal with 2 things: 

• if you r playing solo thralls has less amount, especially its noticeable on defenses, only place is ok for solo is mobile defense.
• if you r playing with other players, 99% they dont give **** about their lich and keeps ignore it.

Yes i know about flee mechanic, but this isnt a thing on consoles bcz of DE wanted give us crap update just for the sake of next prime access which is in 2 weeks, DE is focused on PC happy christmas, we (console players) get S#&$ until end of december or end of january, like usually.

Edited December 6, 2019 by (PS4)KresTias

[Sylonus]

On 2019-11-04 at 1:47 AM, Toran said:

Thanks for sharing that info, saves me a lot of grind till things improve.

Well I've got worse news for you, the intent is to spread this change to all weapon types, to have disposition changes be per specific weapon rather than families. Leading to upgraded variants often being worse choices than their basic version due to riven disposition. I think this is a terrible idea, I think all rivens are terrible ideas, but I think this is worse than the system we currently have in place.

[Zero273]

Take a look at this...
someone, please test before you release such a thing...
Iron skin on top of immunity to corrosive...
heavy hitter weapons with high MR people in the squad struggle to kill it after 5 min of repetitive button smashing.
IT'S NOT FUN, IT'S PURE FRUSTRATION!!!
WTF!

[Ham_Grenabe]

OUCH. All that for a 30% Kuva Seer, too. I mean, he looks badass (dat mask tho - requesting Tennogen helmet now), but that is Not Worth It. 

[Har-Vestor]

So Steve says there will no change to you dying for not knowing the order of mods which you cant find out in any other way as in suiciding. Why? Arguments please, not just "I am the developer, my decision is final."
Why not add skill, why not give us the ability to work  at the very least work for the order WITHOUT dying? If "dying in a video game is no big deal", then why force us to do it, why not remove it so the people who do have a legitimate problem with it are happy and the one who don't are happy, because it didn't matter to them in the first place?

 

[MunsuLight]

SO DE with this devstream still didnt listened to all our complaint and feedback and are gonna be stubborn about the system    the 4 point most discussed are Murmur farming being too slow and unrewarding when most of the time you can brute force the combination before even unveiling the 3 requiem and the second point being that it is not fun to have 8 layers of RNG in a system just to create artificial time sink that barely reward you. Also people keep mentionning using lower % weapon to boost % of your weapon à little bit which is a good idea.. also people keep mentionning that playing in co op os still painful even with all the recent changes.  

 

So DE the Ball is in your hand . Stop being so goddamn stubborn about your vision of the game 

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

6 hours ago, Zero273 said:

Take a look at this...
someone, please test before you release such a thing...
Iron skin on top of immunity to corrosive...
heavy hitter weapons with high MR people in the squad struggle to kill it after 5 min of repetitive button smashing.
IT'S NOT FUN, IT'S PURE FRUSTRATION!!!
WTF!
 

5 mins? takes me 1-2 mins at most to take down a level 5

[FoxyKabam]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

5 mins? takes me 1-2 mins at most to take down a level 5

Spoiler

 

[Aldain]

You want to leave in the automatic death DE?

Then don't be surprised if some players don't bother with the Lich system at all, I won't even bother with it whatsoever.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Aldain

[Zero273]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

5 mins? takes me 1-2 mins at most to take down a level 5

Again take a look at his ability then think, level 5 is not hard.. some of the other Liches can be taken down with one shot each health bar at level 5.
my point was some ability and immunity should be illegal. Let your Lich teleport then let him use iron skin and good luck figuring that out to give him xyz of health to his iron skin...
and immunity against corrosive on top of that is just absurd (you will get zeros of damage until his iron skin completely destroyed).

And I read many people talk about death, I played this game for 5 years and I can safely say that I died after the release of Liches more than I died since I started playing...
It's a video game but why I need to die to know that I fail to guess the right parazon (It's RNG not my fault). so let's Ignore that and talks about what happens when you get killed and your teammates at extraction, the mission automatically end and you will get no Kuva if any drops... even the death scene is just over dramatic. Just quick death and revive screen for the love of God, maybe let the people get kuva automatically when they get killed until you sort out the death thing.

[Yoruno]

After listening to Steve mentions how the main complaint he hears from what i assume is specifically on reddit with this post about how the liches were supposed to last 72 days stay as top post for a few days, i feel that its necessary to bring up afew examples of the a consistent sentiment a good chunk of the community was talking about, not that one-time upvote spike.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/e40ibb/kuva_lich_voice_lines_heavily_imply_that_they/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/e3u03t/shouldnt_the_kuva_liches_die_when_we_fail_the/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/e2idd9/why_do_liches_repeatedly_kill_us_and_not_the/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/dt6tkz/failed_combination_on_the_lich_should_result_in/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/dul8y3/the_lich_killing_you_because_you_lost_rock_paper/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/ds3pez/a_potential_solution_to_kuva_liches_not_really/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/dt0fp7/de_has_acknowledged_the_latest_lich_hunting/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/e65w0d/i_made_a_web_game_to_illustrate_how_i_think_kuva/

Even with the reputation reddit has and how only most popular posts on it reach DE's ears i'm sure you can see a pattern in the similar comments and the 72days-old-lich-thread level of "i agree" votes. I could be injecting my opinion too but there's already hundreds of comments repeating my sentiment just in these alone.

Please consider these feedbacks too when you do look at liches again in the future.

[Madway7]

So I'm guessing no changes to this system... for now.

 

I understand, the devs are full steam ahead working on Empyrian, which is fine. I just don't like that this is a tendency for DE, to leave things either with a major issue unaddressed for months or just leave them in a pretty flawed state for a random amount of time.

Tho comparatively to other stuff it seems very likely that they'll expand on this system and hopefully improve it instead of just adding a new version with corpus "liches".

So for the time being I guess all we can hope for is that the feedback has been taken into account and will get properly addressed once they are less busy.

 

But still, what urked me most was that nothing else was brought up in the devstream. Just the complaint about the insta kills and the comparison of the early concept with the current implementation. To me this was a non issue, to me all I wanted to hear was "people don't like the amount of RNG associated with the liches" and hear what they would have to say about that.

I was hoping it would be one of the talking points Rebb would have in regards to liches, but alas it wasn't. So I guess I'll just be left disappointed and continue not making anymore liches until they improve on the RNG aspect of it.

[Cradicias]

So, if DE is looking for an idea on how to make replacing your Lich possible (while still requiring some work), why not include something involving Kuva? Like, say for instance we can infuse our Parazon with Kuva to the point it causes an overload in the Lich that sends them into hibernation (in game terms, removes them as your Lich). We'd still need to farm up some Kuva (I'd say 5k to 10k would be a good amount) and we'd have a faster option to remove them as our Lich. Maybe even reward us with a random Parazon mod for doing this to them as an alternate way to obtain the requiem mods by converting resources into them?

Edited December 7, 2019 by Cradicias

[JHarlequin]

9 hours ago, Zero273 said:

Take a look at this...
someone, please test before you release such a thing...
Iron skin on top of immunity to corrosive...
heavy hitter weapons with high MR people in the squad struggle to kill it after 5 min of repetitive button smashing.
IT'S NOT FUN, IT'S PURE FRUSTRATION!!!
WTF!

 

 So you do see the weakness to toxin and magnetic right and could have geared for that.  And since you see immunity to corrosive, perhaps take heat weapons so you can use the heat proc rather than just rely on corrosive.  It might make it slightly tougher for you to kill a million regular grineer during the mission, but you will then be able to handle your lich, while the other players will handle the enemies.

 Your lich is difficult, but you still should have known how to make it easier.

[DarkMagician19]

Will the Kuva Liches be anything like the Shadow of Mordor's nemesis system ?? or will they just simply re spawn stronger

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

6 hours ago, Zero273 said:

Again take a look at his ability then think, level 5 is not hard.. some of the other Liches can be taken down with one shot each health bar at level 5.
my point was some ability and immunity should be illegal. Let your Lich teleport then let him use iron skin and good luck figuring that out to give him xyz of health to his iron skin...
and immunity against corrosive on top of that is just absurd (you will get zeros of damage until his iron skin completely destroyed).

And I read many people talk about death, I played this game for 5 years and I can safely say that I died after the release of Liches more than I died since I started playing...
It's a video game but why I need to die to know that I fail to guess the right parazon (It's RNG not my fault). so let's Ignore that and talks about what happens when you get killed and your teammates at extraction, the mission automatically end and you will get no Kuva if any drops... even the death scene is just over dramatic. Just quick death and revive screen for the love of God, maybe let the people get kuva automatically when they get killed until you sort out the death thing.

he is already imune to status, just use mag + tox 

[FLSH_BNG]

I would like to be able to make spectres of my liches to bring along in missions.

[Squick]

My feedback after 12 liches:

 

1) Dying due to RNG, even though it's a very minor set back, is completely bogus. Just let us kill the lich with incorrect words and have them respawn at a higher level and taunt us. Which would make total sense given their voice lines and all the build up you had for the system and their name. If you absolutely have to keep the wrestling inspired take downs, make it like their other take downs where it does a fixed amount of damage.

 

2) Please change requiem relics as follows - Remove amber stars and exilus adapter blueprints, which leaves just 3 rewards - kuva, requiems, and riven shards.While the relics are no longer hard to obtain, it's still annoying to do share after share and not get the word you need.

 

3) Requiem murmur gain needs to be approximately doubled. On my last two liches, I knew the last two words, but not the first one. I had to go through every possible word before I found it, and I still hadn't uncovered the final word before I "guessed" it correctly, despite doing everything I could to uncover the word.

 

4) Liches could probably use a slight decrease in armor / health. While I'm MR28 and don't have a huge issue with them, I've had to hard carry several groups (doing 80%+ of the damage) of low MRs who didn't have access to the gear that I did.

 

5) Lich movement abilities need a cooldown. I've had some of them spam teleport literally every 2 seconds for upwards of a minute, making it incredibly annoying to fight them.

 

6) Lich weapons should have an increasing preference for weapons you do not have yet, guaranteed to be one by the third lich you spawn with a weapon that you have mastered. The queens are trying out new weapons since the liches aren't working...some of this annoyance is negated by the trading system, but it could still be innately better.

 

7) Liches assisting you...they feel very "meh" at the moment. Rarely useful.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Squick

[(PSN)BloodyHell]

Been doing some brainstorming about Kuva Lich trading. Functionally there's not much that needs to be changed with how it works, but the way it's currently implemented could do with some much needed refinement in its presentation. The idea I've come up with builds off the genetic code templates suggestion that's been floated around a lot, but tries to integrate it more naturally into the game with some appropriate lore. 

After completing the 3 requiems and deciding your Kuva Liches fate, instead of the two current choices, where convert turns them into an ally and vanquish kills them and drops their Kuva weapon, there would be a third choice named "Preserve". Mediocre and rushed photoshop visualisation below.

In the most basic mechanical sense this turns them into an item in your inventory, and this would be what you would be trading at the Crimson Branch instead of converted Liches.

Now for the longer in-universe explanation. As the whole concept of the Kuva Liches is centered around the idea of immortality via continuity, what this third option would be doing is essentially not completing the sever of said continuity (thus they still remain immortal), but because you've weakened them enough beforehand you can now trap the Kuva Lich in a form of perpetual stasis via your Parazon. After a new animation indicating the new choice plays out you'll have them in your inventory.

Now the item you trade with a player could be two things. Either DE could make some Kuva-Orokin-Thingy-Ma-Jig-McGuffin that can be equipped in your gear wheel, or (And if possible I'd prefer this, but it's no biggie) they become a unique Requiem mod named after the Lich that you have to equip directly onto your Parazon. Either way, after trading with a player, for them to activate the Lich they would have to first equip the Lich item/mod, and then go through the process of hunting and killing a larvling. After doing this they should now have the Lich fully activated.

Now again, the lore explanation. As has been previously established the idea of continuity is the transfer of the consciousness from one body to another. By equipping the trapped, traded Lich onto the Parazon and stabbing the larvling with it, you would essentially be forcibly transferring that Liches consciousness into a new host body, overriding the original larvling. 

What I prefer about doing all of it this way is that it gives more insight into the process of continuity and shows how dark and disturbing it is. It could also serve as a means for explaining away why they now view the new player as their nemesis as oppose to remembering the original player and going back to directly hunting them. By trapping them in stasis in a unnatural way and performing continuity transfer in such a modified/rush/abnormal manner, the side effects could leave them mentally corrupted, leading to them confusing the new player as the one that killed them originally. And, as an added bonus, this all ties back into the Alignment system. Whether or not you view vanquishing/converting Liches to be a good/evil deed, taking neither action to instead capture them and pass them on for another Tenno to decide their fate feels like it would perfectly reside in the mucky neutral grey area. Lastly, if for whatever reason a player preserves a Lich but decides later that they've changed their mind on wanting to trade them and instead wants them as an ally/their Kuva weapon, they can instead reactivate the Lich for themselves (A very small edge case, but the choice would be there).

This isn't flawless by any means (Suggestions for improvements would be welcome), and I know this is all extra work that would need to be done for what amounts to little more than appeasing a small fraction of the playerbase that cares about this stuff. But, hey, it would fix the inherent goofiness of how it is now of having a converted ally Lich, then trading them away and, all of a sudden, they're evil again? And inexplicably reset to lvl 1? And for some reason not coming after you for revenge after you sold them off? And talking to the new player as if they were their original killer? You can see why I began to brainstorm, lol. 
 

Edited December 7, 2019 by (PS4)BloodyHell

[Hedasker]

Citation

Getting a Lich you don’t want is remedied slightly by trading, but we are discussing further options. Reb mentioned the idea of Palladino dispelling a Lich for you once a week -- just an idea, no promises here!

The current Lich trading system is a tremendous amount of work since we have to convert a Lich to be able to trade him/her.

You're still putting more and more randomness in this game. Can we just get the simple option to trade a fresh Lich ? Having to complete at least 50 missions to convert a Lich you don't want is not really enjoyable.

And what about an option to refill empty Requiem Mods with Kuva ?

Edited December 10, 2019 by Hedasker
Typo

[Aldain]

Still not in support of the automatic death DE, you might want to change your Parazon setup.

I'll even help you load it up, my kill phrase is "No Automatic Death" in that order.

Do the right thing and get rid of the Lich named Aldain.

[Turbozis]

For some reason hacking with parazon doesn't grant any experience to syndicate weapons 😞

[Nerubim]

Please never create another bossfight with 30-60 mins invulnerbility frames ABSOLUTELY requiring a luck factor that cannot be mitigated/entirely removed by skill or wit from the player reasonably. As previously stated by others a lack of progression makes the process before fighting the Lich feel like a puffed up system of invulnerability frames solely dedicated towards a suicide roulette esque gameplay system which ON TOP has randomness in end reward which can't be skipped.

 

Too many layers of chance and grind. A very toxic cocktail leaving a bad taste in our mouth.

Also definatly never tie gameplay towards absolutely requiring luck to succeed. Chance should be only tied towards rewards and mods which is enough of a pain in the ass already. No need for Lich/gameplay to add salt into that wound.

Honestly at this point I'd prefer to join the Queens and become a Lich Tenno hunting Liches like they hunt me. Upon killing them be rewarded properly and get nodes under my control which tax the Lich for a certain time and make it possible to gank me and over the course of many fights at the end either get a final standoff/payoff which results in either getting rid of the Lich and always getting something that is not a complete waste like the permanent acquisition of accumulated taxed resources and/or a weapon/buff for similiar weapon/ephemera or  ACTUALLY get roflstomped NOT due to a game of chance and thus get a hyped up Lich increasing their power proportionally with the tax they took back from me.

 

Also please don't act tone deaf towards the very popular complaints. The last devstream and short Lich segment felt dishonest considering the context of the complaints being so prominent. I would have prefered to you to just say that you acknowledge it at least and have no plan to work on it rather than be silent and pretend like there was not a day gone by without a popular post talking about the real issues with Lich. If you continue that tone deaf behaviour I don't think I could consider warframe to be worth my time or money any more in the near future.

 

Also Requiem Relics do not grant bonus relics on kuva survival/endless missions. Please fix that.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Nerubim

[JHarlequin]

1 hour ago, Nerubim said:

Also please don't act tone deaf towards the very popular complaints. The last devstream and short Lich segment felt dishonest considering the context of the complaints being so prominent. I would have prefered to you to just say that you acknowledge it at least and have no plan to work on it rather than be silent and pretend like there was not a day gone by without a popular post talking about the real issues with Lich.

 

 They have a lot they are working on and they did not go "tone deaf".  They aknowledged the requests and stated their reasoning and they stated that they aren't making changes yet because they want to see more action before they do anything about it.

 If you want them to act on the popular opinions right now, they would probably completely scrap the system and remove the kuva weapons at the same time.  You may be unhappy with the current system and you can say that.  You can even give feedback and suggestions based on what you want from the system.  They are trying to get through all the feedback.  But as they said, they need more time before they will commit to changes.  This means they are not tone deaf on the issue, they just do not want to change the main reason behind the system until they know that it is not working well for people.

[Unitanubis]

The scummy monetization is killing the Lich system. It is a good look for endgame but needing to farm requim relics and then run them in a group as rad just to get the mods is ridiculous, even more so when YOU ARE SELLING TO AVOID THE, INTENTIONALLY DESIGNED, WORST PART OF IT. If the mods were the common drops it would pallatable amount of rng or if they were rare but permanent. The need to farm to min max you desired weapon is something I like and the fact that the Lich is a threat is also good but the relics is enough to undo all the positives.

 

It is insane that this has been live for a month with the same feedback and you have done the absolute minimum to make it like 1% better. DE you used to pride youself on reasonable monetisation.  

Edited December 8, 2019 by Unitanubis