Do you agree if warframe abilities require line of sight? (and another thing))

[White_Matter]

I wish it was simple as that. 

The thing is, I'm talking about later stages of the game, when enemies scale up to 80-100, they become threat to certain frames, particularly nukers and CC'ers. If those nuker frames can't just CC or melt the room quickly, they instantly die to focus f ire from say a couple of lvl 100 Grineer.

There is the dillema. You nerf nukers, and they can't compete with high stat tanky frames and become food in high level missions. You don't nerf them and then they simply nuke the entire map non stop and gameplay becomes brain dead.

Warframe's game blance is very tricky and it has to be worked from ground up. That is probably why they haven't even attempted to do anything about it so far.

 

[Chaemyerelis]

Hmm, I vote yes. It would make sense from a realistic point of view and help with crazy damage frames. I say this as someone who has saryn prime as their most used frame. (Thanks ESO focus farming 😐)

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

I wish it was simple as that. 

The thing is, I'm talking about later stages of the game, when enemies scale up to 80-100, they become threat to certain frames, particularly nukers and CC'ers. If those nuker frames can't just CC or melt the room quickly, they instantly die to focus f ire from say a couple of lvl 100 Grineer.

There is the dillema. You nerf nukers, and they can't compete with high stat tanky frames and become food in high level missions. You don't nerf them and then they simply nuke the entire map non stop and gameplay becomes brain dead.

Warframe's game blance is very tricky and it has to be worked from ground up. That is probably why they haven't even attempted to do anything about it so far.

 

Well, Ember is a prime example of a frame that has gotten nerfed and reworked into something that is a massive AoE frame that still requires interactive play aswell as LoS for many things. She doesnt have some over the top survivability either. She got some defensive buffs in the latest chance, but those defensive buffs can be made to other frames aswell. Saryn and Volt both have skills that could very well be turned into real survival skills and Enox whole day form could be turned into a "blood knight" frame with high defense and good slash debuffs.

[White_Matter]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well, Ember is a prime example of a frame that has gotten nerfed and reworked into something that is a massive AoE frame that still requires interactive play aswell as LoS for many things. She doesnt have some over the top survivability either. She got some defensive buffs in the latest chance, but those defensive buffs can be made to other frames aswell. Saryn and Volt both have skills that could very well be turned into real survival skills and Enox whole day form could be turned into a "blood knight" frame with high defense and good slash debuffs.

Haven't played with new ember to have a proper feel, but that is exactly how "nerf" would be. It wouldn't be just a nerf, but it would also have to be a rework. The risk is, would the rework feel as good as the original  and would people still have an incentive to play that frame ? Or would they just toss it aside and walk up to the next meta thing ? 

 

[Obviousclone]

23 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Haven't played with new ember to have a proper feel, but that is exactly how "nerf" would be. It wouldn't be just a nerf, but it would also have to be a rework. The risk is, would the rework feel as good as the original  and would people still have an incentive to play that frame ? Or would they just toss it aside and walk up to the next meta thing ? 

 

the original ember didn't feel like anything.

it was just you pressed 4 and autowalked/parkoured through a level and watched numbers rise. squadmates also had zero gameplay interaction due to how fast it was to clear enemies before anyone could even see them.

it devolves the game from this cool epic space ninja shooter with hundreds of guns and weapons and superpowers into this cookie-clicker numbers game where there is no gameplay, just a bar slowly filling.

 

Saryn and volt aren't as problematic as they don't instanuke the map the way some of the builds have in the past; you can still sort of run up and kill the enemy before the damage over time takes them, but of course it does still sap from gameplay when you can't test out your brand new great sword because there's no one left to fight.

[Erwes]

I agree. Not an easy task but it could certainly improve a tactical aspect (more thinking and understanding of the map and abilities ect) even if it is obvious that it would require a remarkable amount of work from the developers who are already very busy fixing what has just been released last week... 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Erwes

[Lost_Cartographer]

I believe all abilities should respect line of sight.

If people are going to ask for smarter AI "for a challenge," they need to make the connection that if the AI can't survive using what basic tactics it uses now (taking cover and throwing grenades,) what good are flanking tactics, shield formations, etc. going to do for our enemies?

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

Haven't played with new ember to have a proper feel, but that is exactly how "nerf" would be. It wouldn't be just a nerf, but it would also have to be a rework. The risk is, would the rework feel as good as the original  and would people still have an incentive to play that frame ? Or would they just toss it aside and walk up to the next meta thing ? 

 

Well we are talking about barely a handful of frames that need to be brought in line. There would be no braindead AoE slave meta left after those frames got fixed and balanced. The new meta would likely be far more spread out across the roster depending on the game mode. Kinda like how it should be when we have this many tools to deal with a specific job. Saryn and the others just take shooter out of looter shooter. They turn it into a press 4 simulator.

I barely play Enox, Volt or Saryn anymore. I bring them at times to sortie defenses or other "chore" missions that I just want out of the way. 

If changes came I would probably play them more, just as I plan on playing Ember alot more now after her changes that actually made her fun and visually appealing.

[iGnome21]

No.

 

Now go back to anthem you nerf troll.

[844448]

14 hours ago, White_Matter said:

I wish it was simple as that. 

The thing is, I'm talking about later stages of the game, when enemies scale up to 80-100, they become threat to certain frames, particularly nukers and CC'ers. If those nuker frames can't just CC or melt the room quickly, they instantly die to focus f ire from say a couple of lvl 100 Grineer.

There is the dillema. You nerf nukers, and they can't compete with high stat tanky frames and become food in high level missions. You don't nerf them and then they simply nuke the entire map non stop and gameplay becomes brain dead.

Warframe's game blance is very tricky and it has to be worked from ground up. That is probably why they haven't even attempted to do anything about it so far.

 

Since I remember you as the person who ask for endgame and challenge, I don't remember nukers can double as tank so you will need tanks to draw fire while you prepare your nuke. Isn't that what people keep asking from DE? More diversity and teamwork, with this basic class system of dungeon game of tank, support and DPS? I'm just giving the idea

[Drachnyn]

From what I heard the last gears of war is a very good game, you should play that instead of trying to create gears of warframe.

[Numerikuu]

18 hours ago, BansheePrime said:

I'd cry if Sonar got LoS. Half the reason I use it in survival is to find more enemies. Course LoS on Sonar would not make much sense...

While I agree that nuke frames do need line of sight for some of their abilities, I don't think all of them should. Banshee's Sonar is one of those exceptions. Her Sound Quake I think she could get away with, though if she ended up becoming the nuke frame pick once again, then just nerf the outer ring damage more while keeping the damage closer to her, but keep the CC effect all throughout.

[Jarriaga]

Giving them line of sight would be a start, but that alone will not cut it.

We will still need to be nerfed in range and/or energy replenishment on top of requiring LoS in order to decrease nuking left and right. DE will also need to either rework or outright kill/remove ESO considering that game mode actively encourages nuke mentality (Other than the ult cooldown mechanic).

Also, even though I don't use Loki or Banshee, I believe some abilities like Sonar or Radial Disarm that are not damage nukes should be the only exception and not require line of sight.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Jarriaga

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

If this was implemented then certain maps would become very popular.

So, yeah, I dunno, every area we play in would have to be redesigned around this.

[ranks21]

the truth is whether you have los or not on abilities makes little to no difference other than restricting and contradicting the overall experience of the fun aspects of the game. radial abilities should perform as their name implies.

when the abilities didn't have this silly los back in the earlier days, there were more enemies and the game believe it or not felt more threatening and challenging. now, as you have seen in these forums 4 years after los has been input, all we see is " the game is too easy" threads  and " we want more challenging"  stuff.

problem is you get los to please the casuals but it overall hurt the experience in reality. even with los you can still bring out its many flaws and the total design of the game by simply jumping high and cast the ability. you will see that even with max range and enemies in clear los (not the frame's fov) range it just doesn't work.

if the game was designed with a difficulty slider, easy to hard, los could be implemented to make the game feels more challenging at the hard part of the slider with the less enemy and tougher armor and not the one size fits all we have now.

we've had LOS on abilities since 2015, viver nerf was the start with excal's radial javelin<> look it up. they have even narrowed the cone/ fov angles habitually since then. mirage and raid showed just how silly the los concept was. her blind totally locked down the room when burst from above, same with equinox sleep ability << all you have to do to break the game is jump high and cast then kill rinse and repeat.

Edited November 8, 2019 by ranks21

[Gnohme]

Big fat no to reducing forward momentum - I literally want the opposite. You're asking for an anti-bunnyhop mechanic - I want what is essentially a bunny hop mechanic. Retain speed from slide, sprint, any maneuver you do - bullet jump shouldn't slow you down if you're going faster than the jump would on its own. I would literally stop playing this game if they made it so that repeated bullet jumps went less and less far. No offense - but that idea is really REALLY bad.

 

The game ALREADY drastically reduces your speed the more horizontal your bullet jump is, so this is just pointless. Diagonal facing and upward facing bullet jumps go way further and faster than the forward one, which doesn't make much sense. What this does is actually make bullet jump slower than sprint on most of my frames.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Gnohme

[Helch0rn]

18 hours ago, 844448 said:

Skills are based on your position relative to enemy position. For example, if you use maim, miasma or whatever kind of ability, you can no longer blast those enemies to oblivion when they're behind an obstacle or wall so you have to actively move and get line of sight in order to have your abilities work. No more afk camping with ability turned on

LoS on Misasma makes no sense

Poison Gas does not care if you hide behind a small wall

Posion Gas goes everywhere.

 

the soldiers in WW1 did not survive the gas attack because they were out of sight of the enemy when the poison gas was released.

[Gnohme]

Just now, Helch0rn said:

LoS on Misasma makes no sense

Poison Gas does not care if you hide behind a small wall

Posion Gas goes everywhere.

 

the soldiers in WW1 did not survive the gas attack because they were out of sight of the enemy when the poison gas was released.

Also S#&amp;&#036; like Mag's abilities could easily make sense passing through walls. 

[RX-3DR]

18 hours ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

AI needs to be better, but 90% of abilities that randomly gain LoS suddenly die completely. There are some that should have LoS limitations, but spore? It's an airborne contagion, in what #*!%ing world does a knee high wall act like a gas mask? 

Destiny 2, for example, has better enemy AI and doesn't require every ability to be LoS for no reason. They don't stand and slowly walk towards you as they shoot, nor do they just sit there while being shot. They don't do moderate jogs away to get to cover, they actually have good animations and do real tactical dodges. Fallen, for example, actually lower their head to the floor and scuttle away at a quick pace to make it far more difficult to headshot them. 

This is a very horrible comparison to make, have you even played Destiny 2? If you put any Warframe, with all their ability stats, energy quirks, etc, into Destiny 2, you would stop seeing all these mechanics in play. The Fallen would start zipping around, but immediately get stopped in their tracks and either stay stuck there for the next 15 seconds or die instantly. If you really want to understand the core problem with Warframe's abilities in comparison to Destiny 2, go do some Blind Well with a good AOE duration Super(Dawnblade mirrors Exalted Blade quite well) and constantly pick up the Radiance Orbs, you'll see how little all these enemy quirks matter. This is even before you compound Warframe's ridiculous ability value of doing damage to everything in a 20 meter radius. Taken Captain dodging left and right? Doesn't matter, I'll just throw 2 swings towards him, one of them will clip and kill him instantly.

Edited November 8, 2019 by RX-3DR

[Soulden]

19 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Equinox, Saryn and Volt n

I love spamming Avalanche with Frost, so I don't mind those getting nerfed for my benefit either. So glad he flies under most players radar.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Souldend78

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, Souldend78 said:

I love spamming Avalanche with Frost, so I don't mind those getting nerfed for my benefit either. So glad he flies under most players radar.

Saryn has 16m Spore spread distance and a Miasma radius of 20m, Equinox has an 18m Maim radius, and Volt has a 20m Discharge radius. Avalanche's 15m base radius coupled with slow cast speed is inconsequential by comparison, but if he becomes the next press-4-to-win frame, then give it LoS too.

[Pizzarugi]

20 hours ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

AI needs to be better

What good does hiding behind cover do when you can still 1shot them through walls and other obstacles though? Sure, even if enemies in Warframe suddenly had their AI buffed to better utilize cover and defensive tactics, that's still a moot point when abilities like Spores/Miasma/Maim/Discharge/Avalanche ignores their cover and hits them directly. And we're back to square one: Players can nuke rooms and trivialize the game. The only nuke frames that would be affected by this would be Mesa and Ember who have LoS.

You mentioned Destiny 2 in your post and as far as I can tell, there are no abilities or weapons in the game that can clear entire rooms of enemies. Compared to Warframe, all nukes in that game are relegated to weapons and abilities that can only hit one target up to a small, densely-packed group.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[No1NParticular31]

1. No every ability, not even just nuke abilities need to be made LOS. Really I think most people are talking about Saryn but if you took her 1 away, why would anyone play her at all? That ability is her niche, her bread and butter if you will. She isn't a tank frame, she isn't a buff frame, she isn't a support frame, she isn't a heal frame, she is a nuke frame. Take that away and what do you really have? I say this as someone that rarely even plays her now but have been in many groups with a Saryn, she is fine as is.

2. Nerf bullet jumping? Why? The parkour system is what makes this game better than most. Start nerfing that and people may as well go play any other looter shooter. If you don't like bullet jumping don't do it, but stop trying to force your dumb ideas on everyone else. If I wanted to play a walk around game I wouldn't be here.

A player asking to be nerfed is about as smart as a chicken asking Col. Sanders to fry it.

Edited November 8, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[ILOHARTA]

no I don't agree, simply because certain real weapons do not require it, which means that even in our actual 'reality' such things can exist with no problems whatsoever and it would make absolutely no sense to remove them from a fictional power fantasy shooter

[Pizzarugi]

11 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

no I don't agree, simply because certain real weapons do not require it, which means that even in our actual 'reality' such things can exist with no problems whatsoever and it would make absolutely no sense to remove them from a fictional power fantasy shooter

This is a horde shooter, not a "fictional power fantasy" shooter.

You can have your power fantasy without trivializing the game for yourself and your teammates.