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[DE]Bear

(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

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Pustrels mega suck. Repairs need to be so frequent that they all get used up by the time the mission is over.

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i am mostly solo player (90% solo) and this epyrean is totaly waste of time ...its impossible to do anything... i was able to shoot down 10 freaking small enemy ship but when the big guy showed up it melted away my railjack in freaking 5 secon...  5 freaking second against a dumb aimbot terminatr AI... Please DE make it possible for solo player to enjoy the empyrean expansion too, because its waste of time the way it is right now, cause i cannot keep any materials what i get in the mission since its impossible to complete the 30 small ship and the 2 big what the mission wants from me.... the crew ship literaly melts away my railjack in mere 5 sec... if i am lucky then 10 sec..

1) The way i i feel its not railjack, its just archwing 2.0, it doesnt feel like i am flying a space ship with big guns(way to low dmg making it way too hard to kill enemies, thus cannot get the materials for the upgrades)

2) Railjack is a space battle ship so at least give it little bit more hp and armor against enemy ships, so it not melts down like ice cream in a hot summer day

3) Enemy ships are doing too much dmg to the railjack especialy the crew ship (WAAAAAY TOOO MUCH DMG)

4) And that count down when the ship is about to explode..... cmon there is no way solo players can deal with the fire while fighting with enemy ships.....

5) It would be far more better if the players has to fix their ships in the dojo, and not while fighting with the impossibly strong enemies...

please DE make the railjack solo player friendly too because its impossible to enjoy to its fullest the game the way it is.

 

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So, you guys removed the power capacity system as you said from the devstream because they interrupted the flow of gameplay. Seems well enough.

 

...except for the fact the Railjack Forge exists and have to Refine mats in mission and craft utility items, which greatly disrupts the flow of gameplay.

Why did you keep this in? It makes it so annoying to have another layer of confusion to something that you cannot afford to be user-unfriendly. So please, very please, remove the forge system.

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what do i do with my 300 billion over all resources from the rest of the game? had years to accumulate them but no content to use them on. the last "content" update was a year and a half ago with the sacrifice and even before that is has been a while since we got an update that used resources even before sacrifice. im not counting POE 2.0 as content because it is just a remake of poe 1.0 but with snow and u couldnt use any resources on it either u had to grind again. seems like that's all you are trying to get out of players in the last year and a half DE, playtime and plat removed from the game using the market. (and dont get me started about how broken the economy, i got a copy of the same item, same house same everything except it drives 2km faster. another rng on top of rng on to of rng system with a plat solution the repair drones and i am talking about the liches which i wish there was a button that completely removed them from the game for me but keeps the ephemeras and throws the kuva weapons into oblivion where they belong. honestly did you guys see how much plat there is in the riven market and decide "lets replicate that twice and add a way to bank on it with the market?)

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Cubic Diodes dropped in missions but not got any of them in mission rewards, no clue how to get it since there no one do the guide or is it known bug ?

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The frequency of pustrel drops needs to increase. As it stands, the requirements for upgrades (1500 for MK1 stuff) and how much you can get per mission (160  on my last run, and I spent a LOT of time searching for extra stuff) is quite dissonant. 

There needs to be more.

 

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Thanks for making every single part of it a huge chore to grind, thanks for the extra resources that just add to the never ending pile of elements in this universe.
#*!% you in reality.

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No one reads this garbage. They dont care, why would they. They just want you to waste your time, get frustrated, and spend plat. This game is turning to a flaming pile of hot garbage.

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I'm with the others. Pustrels seem to be a deliberate bottleneck. They drop in disproportionately low quantities, recipes use them in disproportionately large quantities and they're also used in ship repairs - the one item you'll need to craft in disproportionately large quantities of its own. Basically, it's used in a lot of stuff but it doesn't drop a lot. The rest of the resources might as well not even be there - we'll be sitting on piles of them by the time we have enough Pustrels. Tying progression to multiple resources but making one massively more scarce than the others is a frankly aggravating way to do progression. It gives the impression of plenty while still being an utter chore.

More than that - a system where players use the same resources for upgrades and consumables is bad at inception. Doubly so when the consumables in question aren't even optional. This isn't like Team Restores on ground missions, where a decent player can usually make do without ever using them, or only ever using them to cover up for a mistake. The Omni Tool is absolutely necessary and required to be used multiple times per mission. That's not a consumable, that's basic upkeep - the price of running a Railjack in the first place. It's comparable to asking us to pay for our ammo (which Railjack incidentally also does). Beyond being a REALLY bad look, this makes what would already be a pretty grindy progression system borderline insufferable AND appearing to be deliberately hobbled in order to push people into the Cash Shop. This is not a good look.

If I may make a suggestion, I'd say split in-mission-crafting resources off from in-dojo-upgrade resources. Either let us directly pick up ammo, energy and repair kits, or else constitute some kind of unified resources which only exists in missions and can only be used for crafting, but which would disappear as soon as the mission is done. Now also add another upgrade vector to the Railjack called "stockpile," where players can pick their "initial loadout" such that they always enter missions with some minimum amount of all resources without always having to recraft them at the Dojo. This gives players the choice of starting out loaded with missiles or loaded with repair and so on, it means every mission starts out with some amount of a safety net and creates room for further progression. Maybe I can upgrade my ship's storage capacity, maybe I can upgrade starting materials I get for free, etc.

The current system honestly feels somewhere between a naked cash grab and a REALLY punishing grind.

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I'm confused about the information I read in this reddit thread: 

There's conflicting comments about whether it's true/bugged etc and I'm wondering if I've been missing out on resources I should have gotten? 

 

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One word: Pustrels.

 

 

And can you please remove the worthless old resources from the reward pools? I mean, what I am gonna do with Ferrite considering even you guys have forgotten these resources exist as you keep shoving more useless resources down our throats? Convert them into Pustrels? That would be nice.

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12 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I'm confused about the information I read in this reddit thread: 

There's conflicting comments about whether it's true/bugged etc and I'm wondering if I've been missing out on resources I should have gotten? 

 

 

That...doesn't make sense. I don't see any option to actually 'refine' the materials, just use them to craft the 4 resources the ship needs. I've also got a decent stockpile growing, and I've never refined anything before mid-mission, and there's no way that could just be from mission rewards. 

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7 minutes ago, 0Midas0 said:

That...doesn't make sense. I don't see any option to actually 'refine' the materials, just use them to craft the 4 resources the ship needs. I've also got a decent stockpile growing, and I've never refined anything before mid-mission, and there's no way that could just be from mission rewards. 

The refine button is right above the consumables screen in the middle. Easy to miss I'm afraid.

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So, I'm quite liking Railjack overall.

However, the cost to repair salvaged equipment is a bit obscene.

It's one thing to build a gun from scratch, it makes sense that it would require more resources. But why does repairing an existing weapon cost more than building a new one? It's a bit much.

I would absolutely cut the costs for repairing salvaged items in half.

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my only serious annoyance that hasen't been fixed yet is refinement, people almost instantaneously rush to the forge and refine everything within the last few moments of the mission, as the ship host and pilot, this ends up leaving me in a position where more offend then not, theirs nothing left to re-supply with forcing a return to the dojo, id like to see some way have a minimum amount of supply's crafted as host, or some similar system where i actually can re-supply as intended and not get force reined by team mates

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It's a vicious cycle of needing to literally waste materials just to get the ship going for a chance at getting materials that your going to need to get the ship going again. This was either terribly thought out, or perfectly thought out to add as much grind as possible while killing progression. You have to burn everything you need to progress just to run through a mission. If you get a damaged ship part, kiss all of that "progress" goodbye. The material requirements for new ship parts are ridiculous. Take pustrels for example; with an orange booster, I'll get maybe 100 for 20 minutes of mining on the plains. Then once you have them, you need them just to charge up the fire extinguisher. If you manage to complete a mission and get a new part for your ship that needs repairs, you just lost what little progress you gained from completing the mission. If I have to stare at rocks for hours just to get one new ship part, just to have that literally blow up in my face I'm going to find a different game to play. Remove the "upkeep" for the extinguisher, put the other 3 Avionics on cooldowns that reduce with Intrinsic upgrades, reduce the overall cost for new ship parts by a large margin, switch repairs to use things like Alloy and Ferrite. As is, this is far worse than Cetus on launch.

Edit: 120 isos, 3600 diodes and 2400 pustrels to repair one new part. That part's stats are RNG. If I happen to get another one that's better, that is an absolutely disgusting waste of resources. This is Hema all over again, only with RNG on top. Try 12 isos, 360 diodes, 240 pustrels. One tenth reduction. I'm dead serious. I'm at Ghost clan rank. The fact that there's RNG added to these... :vomit:
 

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Carbide drops seem to be incredibly low. Considering that crafting guns takes a few thousand of these we're looking at months worth of playtime not using special ammunition in order to save up for their guns - and after that most people are likely too burned out to touch the mode again.

We either need more Carbide drops or (better) a separation of weapon and ammo crafting. 

It's insane - and I still have a booster up...

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On 2019-12-12 at 11:23 PM, V0lution said:

Needing resources for repairs and munitions is just the worst idea ever. You go out to the world to farm resources just to use them to fail and get nothing back in return and then you gotta go out and farm them again just to fail again and lose them again.

It becomes extremely frustrating to even want to use your own ship to even attempt the mission to being with.

It just feels like some World of Tanks garbage where you're have to go farm low level missions to be able to afford to do the high level ones.  Only worse because with a bad team it's going to be very possible to end that farming mission in the red. 

 

And in general, the costs of upgrading are completely insane.  Saturn missions really feel like they're balanced around having a decent amount of Mk I equipment (just based on how much fire you have to dump into fighters there with the starter-tier weapons), but finishing Earth doesn't even get you close to enough Titanium to build a single item.

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I've played way too much railjack spending most of my time on it(~81 intrinsics) and have a resource booster. I've used almost all of the resources I have earned and only been able to repair only 2 items, 1 mk1 and 1 mk2.


The resource costs are insane. I've been waiting and collecting almost every drop from fighters/crewships I kill and doing every away mission and breaking every box and opening every locker.

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Okay.

First problem: you spend too many resources fixing equipment. I barely get 100 carbides every 15 minutes and this piece of gear wants 1500 of it? Yeah, no.

Second problem: you’re micromanaging 4 forges with a ridiculously long cooldown for something that gets spent fast. That’s also a fair bit of resources down the drain. Solution would be to just remove the resource requirement and use resources to rush the building instantly???

Finally RNG stats in weapons isn’t linear progression. We’ve put resources into fixing the wreckage up; we don’t want to find another that’s a better roll, because that kills the rewarding-ness of having a rare drop. It’s gonna turn out like Liches and we all know how that went (poorly)

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Please note that I currently am not using any resource boosters at the time of this feedback or in any of the time I've spent with Empyrean thus far.

I'll start by echoing what everyone else is saying about pustrels.  The amount that everything demands vs the amount that can actually be acquired compared to the other resources is glaringly mismatched.  Thus far they seem like the one and only bottleneck for everything I want to do.  This would be less of an issue if they weren't also the resource that has to be constantly expended on repairing the ship.  I confess that I've not made it past the first mission (solo player) but I can already see that it'll be the one thing that stops me from getting better gear for a long time.  Being held back by only one or two resources feel infinitely more irritating than generally needing more miscellaneous stuff, because it throws the problem into sharp relief.  While a general resource deficit just makes me feel like I need to keep playing, a specific deficit reminds me that the only reason I can't find enough is because someone deliberately set the number in the RNG algorithm to a remarkably low value just to slow me down.  The moment I can put the same resource name to why I can't make ten different things, I'm thinking about the code and not the game, and that's unfortunate.

I suggest maybe easing into the resource demands more gradually.  Maybe require a mix of some of the rarer non-empyrean resources for crafting the lower level gear and whatnot, to help players get their foot in the door like with the blueprint research, which I thought was a great idea for rewarding existing investment while also encouraging digging into the new content.  It really did make me feel like "Hey, I can start making some progress right out of the gate, awesome!".  Pushing that a little further, and backing off on the pustrels, might make a world of difference.  As it stands, it make me hate pustrels.  It would be so much more tolerable if it was even just not always pustrels.

And when it comes to the collecting half of the economy, we're back to the constant battle over vacuum.  The archwing vacuum range is so small I legitimately don't think I'd be able to tell if it was turned off.  Seriously, if I'm in archwing, then I'm flying straight at the item I want.  My speed has a lot more to do with closing the distance than my vacuum does in that equation.  "Extending" a range that small feels like trying to convince a kid that less candy is better by calling it "Fun Size".  I can think of a few ways to improve the overall situation, other than just increasing the vacuum range.

1.  Highlighting resources.  Part of the issue is that I'm often looking for little, softly glowing pinpoints of blue light in a skybox where that really doesn't stand out.  Being able to ping our surroundings or otherwise see out where things are with some sort of radar, a la Animal Instinct or Loot Radar, would be useful.

2.  Just automatically grab loot from any enemy we actively blow out of the sky.  Speaks for itself.

3.  Add a passive to the upcoming command intrinsic that makes the crew gather drops for you, either as an effectively larger vacuum range or the auto-collect on kill, or whatever else anyone can come up with.  If that's too "easy", make it an active command that has to be issued to make it more of interactive experience for the player.

Also, tangentially related to economic matters in terms of managing what we own, the RNG variation between avionics/drops in general has a few issues.  For one, the UI of it could use some work to make it clearer which is better at a glance.  For example, being able to see what this new Hull Weave will look like maxed out compared to my already maxed out one.  Beyond that, it's a little galling to have that situation of "oh, this drop is just a worse version of what I already have".  That's made more annoying because you can't tell that's the case until you dig into the inventory and run the numbers.  And that whole process is pretty clunky so the less time I have to spend making that decision, the better.  And why can't I see empyrean stuff in my inventory without being in the drydock?  And even then, I can only see the avionics.  It's rather inconvenient.

I hope any of that was helpful.

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copernics and carbides cost on  wreckage parts need to be reduced the same for the rest parts that need others resources is extreme high!

-i lost so many resources because its new update and there is a lots of bugs like the infinity load screen  that dont let me do anything else than use alt+f4 to get out of the game.

-i played with double resource booster and even like that is too little the amount that i collect every mission

fix?? maybe increasing the drop amount of those resources and when the part get scraped please make it that one can get more than half of the resources invested on those parts because new pars will come with better stats.

my English is bad sorry if i cant make my self understand!

Warframe0035.jpg

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It requires insane amount of pustrels to repair wreckages and the same resource is needed to do repair work which is the core of railjack gameplay.... 

I think this is not reasonable, Sheldon.

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Seems to me like the number of ressources required to repair parts is extremely inconsistent. Look at the Komms : you need 8 of those for each mk II parts. Even though they are rare, they drop in such a way that in 3-4 missions you have enough to build  a part. Now look at carbides : you need 8k per part, and if you want to completely equip your railjack with mk II parts, that's 40k in your face. After farming for about 12 hours, i've only got 3.5k carbides. And I haven't spent a single one on mk I parts because of how tedious it is. That's absolutely insane, we are talking about several weeks of constant grind just to get 5 mark II parts. Of course i'm not saying that the railjack upgrades should be obtained straight away, but right now this is just too much, even for invested players.

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11 minutes ago, kyori said:

It requires insane amount of pustrels to repair wreckages and the same resource is needed to do repair work which is the core of railjack gameplay.... 

I think this is not reasonable, Sheldon.

Pustrels just new Mutagen sample 🤢  
Remember research Hema 4ever 🤮  (Just buy for plat, okay?)

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