(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

[Stipz]

edit: moved to General feedback

Edited December 14, 2019 by Stipz

[Fairwing]

While I like the idea of ship components being rare drops from enemy ships, the repair costs of some of these items are absurd.  I have one item that requires 8000 copernicus as one of the requirements.  Who thought this was good idea?  The cynic in me thinks it's a push to make players purchase repair drones from the market.  Are repair drones available in game outside the market?

 

I think the material costs of operating the rail jack, especially repairs, encourages players to ditch the railjack out of the way and complete missions in aw.

[DrivaMain]

1. Non Railjack resources need to be removed from the drop table. Why would I need more ferrite while I have millions in storage?
2. Railjack resources needs to be highlighted with an icon on the HUD (like Sentient Cores). It’s very hard to see them in the midst of combat. Not to mention you need them to repair your ship mid mission.

3. Lower the cost of the consumables and maybe increase max cargo.

[Loza03]

Something of great importance:

Refining resources is not a good element. Having to remember to go to the back of your ship and press a button to ensure you're getting the loot that was picked up is a system that is unnecessarily convoluted.

Mid-mission, if you're potentially going to fail it and want to salvage something from the failure, perhaps, but if you complete a mission the refining process (with the resource multiplier intact, please) should kick in. Sometimes it doesn't, and you're losing resources on farming.

[xxswatelitexx]

Rail Jack Rewards needs Tweaking

• Host just Paid 6 million credits to make a Railjack
• plus 10,000 of various resources.
   

Why would they need 2000 credit drop 
or 2000 Ferrite?

I personally have 4 million + Ferrite what am I going to do with an Extra 2000?

Rewards should be changed to;

• Railjack Consumable Resources -> Resources more commonly used by Railjack for crafting
• Universal Medallions
• Rare Archwing Mods
• Railjack Parts
• Railjack Mods
• Intrinsics

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by xxswatelitexx

[Modus-Pwnens]

It doesn't seem to work reliably right now, but once resource collection works as in the Patch Notes (resources over the ship cap go into player inventory, and at the end of a mission it all goes into player inventory automatically without hitting Refine), there's no reason for Refine to exist at all. The only purpose it serves is the ability for new players/griefers to accidentally/purposefully Refine resources during the mission and deprive you of the things you need to make Revolite, Dome Charges, etc.

Flying around collecting all of the items at the end also feels pretty bad. Empyrean is fun. I want to go jump into the next mission, not spend five minutes flying around vacuuming up resources.

The flow should be: play mission, objectives end (but we're still in mission), resources get collected (maybe replace the Refine button with a "scavenger drones" button that doesn't work during combat, but at the end can go grab all the remaining stuff, maybe at only a fraction of the value - and it pushes it directly into player inventories like mission success, not into the ship inventory), and then the forges should lose their cooldown and draw from player rather than ship inventory so we can resupply without going back to the drydock, and the arsenal should become functional so we can change loadout for the next mission if we want to without going back to the drydock, and then we pick another mission and go again.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Modus-Pwnens

[Terrariapro8C]

Getting only half of the resources from scrapping a build part is really off putting and the rng also makes it hard to know if you should upgrade it or not.

pustrels are very hard to get and not knowing if you will get them back from scrapping doesn't help.

If we are going to stick with the rng system can we get the maximum values possible of the part so we know what to look for and upgrade ? Because right now the RNG and pustrels problems makes it very hard to decide to upgrade or not.

[VoadorHolandes]

So, Pustrels. I need a billion of them to make one miserable item.

That's my main complaint: 3k for MK1 stuff. Hours upon hours of gameplay and a further 12 hour wait to get one item with random stats.

[CRAFTTHIS]

Now that emperian has launched im starting to see me acquiring a lot of one resource but not enough of another type.

This is eventually going to lead to an alloy plate situation for veterans again where we have Millions of one resource but not enough polymer bundles or [insert x resource here] but be drowning in 20 lifetimes worth of another resource

DE should implement a resource exchange kiosk with really really high exchange rates like thousands of X resource for like 10 or 100 of another resource or some other really poor exchange rate. I dread the realization that they will have to band-aid fix by inventing more and more resources like hexanon. I don't want 10 million Alloy plates, nano spores and ferite. If i could get rid of them for a really low exchange rate i would in a heartbeat \

Uncommons drop at about 1/3 the rate of commons so make it like 5 common drops per 1 uncommon drop

Rares will require like only uncommon resource to rare, so it will actually take like a lot of commons to be melted into 1 rare drop + make an artificial time gate forcing players to log on every week to do common to uncommon so they can exchange uncommon resource for 1 rare.

 

 

-it would alleviate/ band-aid fix drop issues for other resources

- if you only allow transmute/exchange a few times per 24hr it could encourage increased play time/frequency

- when transmuting up the tree it will take an exponental amout of commons to transmute a single rare item so yea

- charge platinum after the few free times per day, (at a discounted rate to what you would find on the market, to encourage a platinum dump)

- and it would keep player inventory of certain resources at a reasonable amount.

^{please i really don't want Alloy plates} _2.0

Edited December 14, 2019 by CRAFTTHIS
ideas added

[Foefaller]

Repairing wreckage seems *way* too expensive for the payoff, especially in resources like pustrals/copernics/etc.

Can't speak of the MK2 stuff I've come across, but every MK1 thing I've found has been *at best* a minor upgrade and sometimes a sidegrade or even worse than the MK1 gear that my clan is currently researching, yet it would take around twice as much of the basic resources to repair.

That kinda high cost for a bit of an edge might make since for the highest tier of stuff, but for the early tiers IMO I should be wanting to repair them because they are cheaper than the research, or noticeably better at a similar cost, even if it's something that's more utility than a direct damage bonus, like heat management or damage falloff.

Also, it seems like the maps are completely bare of pustruls, which from what I can tell only drop from ships or the containers found in crewships and bases. This seems odd when you can get hundreds of pretty much every other basic resource from all the destructibles you can find in space after the mission is over.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Foefaller

[BornWithTeeth]

Really enjoying Railjack!

 

But....

- Pustrels. Mein Gott, DE. It really, truly, honestly feels like y'all sat down during the design phase and someone said "Right , which resource is going to be absolutely the deciding factor of 90% of the entire system due to its relative scarcity?" and someone else sneezed and it sounded like "UhhhPUstrelllssss, oh, pardon me."
     ----> Speaking of pustrels, why is this chokepoint resource also the one consumed by doing constant repairs? Lads, this is maybe not as elegant a design choice as you may have felt it to be during the design.

- Missions rewarding ferrite and cryotic? DE, those things are, in the context of Railjack, trash. Actual garbage. It does not feel remotely rewarding to get small amounts of non-Railjack relevant resources from doing Railjack battles. I would trade ferrite for pustrels at a rate of 1,000:1.

[Intotsu]

I have returned again to reiterate the need for an increase in Pustrel drops or a reduction in the Pustrel cost in researching items.
Today I found an engine I need to repair. This is awesome. This is just what I wanted (I want my ship to move faster!)
The Cubic Diode/Pustrel cost is CRAZY big! The pustrel cost alone is 333% more than the cost of simply upgrading my ship's regular engines (3500 vs 1500).

This is not awesome. This is not what I wanted.
 

Pustrels need to either be as common a resource as Titanium/Diodes, etc, or the number for using them must even out with the Iodes and other rarer resources. Otherwise this will be a grinding exercise in frustration rather than the somewhat enjoyable experience it has been so far.

 

[OliverSniper]

I don't know if anyone is going to read this but I shall try to give feedback on the economy:
1. Crafting "essential items" requires the same resources we need to use to upgrade our ship
2. We earn upgrades at random , their bonuses vary within the same "family" for example I have 2 Zekti MKII reactors one has +6 avionic and +80 flux capacity the other has +13 and +100 respectively , this on it selfe wouldn't be a problem IF these components wouldn't require a huge amount of resources to craft
 

to solve these problems I sugest the folowing:
1. remove old resources from the drop tables and replace them with the new ones 
2. Reduce the resources required to repair items or remove them all together and let us earn intact parts ------ alternatively get rid of random stat values u guys never did this before (until liches that is) and it creates an uneven playing field it is the same problem as riven dispo 
Another solution to the problem presented under number 2 would be to allow us to carry over the HIGHER stat from a new component in exchange for 1/10 of the resources requirements thus alloing the players to progress without forceing them to build the same item again once again u guys never did this before 
 

Other then the problems I listed this is one of the most fun times I had with warframe ever since void keys have been removed (still miss em) and this is what I hoped arcwing would be when it was showed way back when , tho I must say weapons not being hit scan anymore feels both good and bad at the same time

sincierly OliverSniper

[OliverSniper]

I don't know if anyone is going to read this but I shall try to give feedback on the economy:
1. Crafting "essential items" requires the same resources we need to use to upgrade our ship
2. We earn upgrades at random , their bonuses vary within the same "family" for example I have 2 Zekti MKII reactors one has +6 avionic and +80 flux capacity the other has +13 and +100 respectively , this on it selfe wouldn't be a problem IF these components wouldn't require a huge amount of resources to craft
 

to solve these problems I sugest the folowing:
1. remove old resources from the drop tables and replace them with the new ones 
2. Reduce the resources required to repair items or remove them all together and let us earn intact parts ------ alternatively get rid of random stat values u guys never did this before (until liches that is) and it creates an uneven playing field it is the same problem as riven dispo 
Another solution to the problem presented under number 2 would be to allow us to carry over the HIGHER stat from a new component in exchange for 1/10 of the resources requirements thus alloing the players to progress without forceing them to build the same item again once again u guys never did this before 
 

Other then the problems I listed this is one of the most fun times I had with warframe ever since void keys have been removed (still miss em) and this is what I hoped arcwing would be when it was showed way back when , tho I must say weapons not being hit scan anymore feels both good and bad at the same time

sincierly OliverSniper

[HEYORI]

I've played railjack missions for 5-6 hours with resource booster, and I don't have enough to even repair one wreckage. In random squads ppl often forget about the forge, which leads to minor amount of resources lost. On top of that some of it is consumed on repairs, ammo etc. 

Also cost to repair wreckage is static, mk1 cost as much as mk2. Why is  mk1 cost as much?  As it's stands there is almost no progression with ship parts, I can't even experiment with different mk1 parts.    
And the 50p drone, who thought it's a good idea?           

[2ndPersonPlural]

On 2019-12-13 at 7:26 PM, MJ12 said:

you're literally firing progression out of your missile tubes every time you use them, every time your Railjack takes damage you're literally burning progression, and so on. It seems that this sort of mechanic is likely to result in a sort of 'win more' spiral, where a player who has a good team can take on harder challenges (getting more rewards) while using fewer repairs/missiles/etc (getting more rewards) and therefore progresses faster, getting the tools needed to take on even harder content (which gives them even more rewards).

A lot of people are talking about this concept as if it's a bad thing.  It's a good thing.  It's an interesting dynamic, and allows effective teams to get an edge without succumbing to Warframe's usual infinite power creep cycle.

[MiMiren]

The resource collection with Railjack is not fun. I have a hard time seeing where the resources are. If I don't collect the resources, doing the mission would be a waste of time.

My suggestion would be to make it easier for a player to see where the resources are and also increase the vacuum range by a lot. I shouldn't feel the need to drive my face right into the resource or follow a destroyed enemy to grab his loot. Try doing that for 60 fighters.

Increase the vacuum range significantly.

This post is after the patch 27.0.2 where railjack got its vacuum range increased.

[Kounavia]

pustrel and cubic diode costs are way to high for everything for how little you get per mission and thats if you don't spend any on revolite during the mission

[S33K3RsDude]

I'm sure there must have been internal discussions about using resources to craft Revolite, Flux Capacity and ammunition. What arguments convinced you to do it? I really don't think it's a good idea. Especially because it goes against everything else in the game. Warframes don't have to craft energy, they collect energy orbs or use one of the myriad of ways of energy regeneration you've given us. If energy for using abilities had to be crafted frames that use lots of abilities would get no resources at all. Using your resources to craft energy and ammunition fits RPGs and rogue-likes/rogue-lites, but Warframe is neither nor, and it shouldn't be. I think enemies should drop either a different set of resources, that isn't needed for crafting out-of-mission and can only be used mid-mission in the Forge, or they should straight up drop ammo and energy like in the rest of the game. It feels really bad simply to craft Revolite, knowing you're spending resources. It discourages the player from using active avionics and the secondary weapons or the artillery. This would also entirely remove all the current problems regarding the refining mechanic. I think it's worth considering the idea of energy and ammo drops and dropping the Forge entirely. Warframe is about the action and going to the Forge to press a button is the opposite of action. It's really not a fun mechanic.

Secondly, the cost for repairing items compared to building researched items seem to be in the wrong order. At the moment repairing costs twice as much as building from scratch. Not only does that make no sense immersion wise, but it also seems counter-intuative. Surely you want people to individualise their Railjack by using the parts they aquire from missions. The way it is now most people won't even bother with them because the repair costs are so high. I would have imagined the repair costs should be lower than the build costs, not higher.

I'm not sure if my next two points necessarily belongs to economy, but here they are: At the moment aquiring the most resources per mission requires the players to abandon the Railjack after the mission objectives are completed and scouring the map for resources in Archwing-mode. This process can take as long, if not longer, than the actual fight and while it is quite interesting the first 3 times it quickly gets extremely boring and tedious. After all Warframe is about the action, not about harvesting or space mining. Since you secure the sector in every mission and drive out all Grineer forces, it would kind of make sense for all the resources to be collected automatically at the end of the mission. Of course you could also increase the drop amounts from enemies and reduce the drop amounts from in-mission resource-nodes until it is more efficient to start a new mission over scavanging the entire map, but I'm not sure if enemies drop all of the resources.

This one I'm not sure about, i didn't manage to test it properly, so I just want to mention it: Some people said that items picked up by players in Grineer ships and bases are not shared with the squad. If that statement is false than I applaud you for thinking of this during development, well done. If not: Railjack focuses heavily on squad-cooperation. If items, especially the blueprints of the new weapons as well as the Railjack-related resources where not shared, that would be punishing the pilot and the gunner/engineer for doing their part and remaining in the Railjack while the others bord the Grineer. Since Intrinsics are a thing the roles of pilot, gunner and so on are sort of finally determined, so you couldn't even argue people can switch roles every once in a while. Teamwork should lead to shared rewards.

[0Midas0]

20 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

The refine button is right above the consumables screen in the middle. Easy to miss I'm afraid.

Yeah, I found it. It definitely is easy to miss because it just looks like a title, like you're in the 'refine' menu. 

If it doesn't auto-refine at the end of a mission and really just tosses all that stuff out, that is so abysmal it's mindblowing.

[OrangeAnt]

The resource costs for uppgrades to the railjack feels absurd. Especellay for someone like me, who is practically the only one playing in my clan. I've played strictly only railjack now for about 10-20 hours and I've got about 3,6 k pustrels and cubics (Also, i farmed for these, not just going from mission to mission). That's the cost for reparing a mk1...I found a mk2 recently that required 8 k of each of these...

I can understand some of the design philosophy behind using resources to craft ammo of different sorts. Since it would make sense that the drydock should be the main place for stocking up before a run and since you get more resources from refining, it makes sense (kind of). However, with that in mind it should make sense that you shouldn't need to forge much more ammo when already on a run, at least on the "easy" ones, but sadly you kind of have to. I feel like this defeats the purpose of this design (assuming this was the intent) and makes it much more tedious than what would be optimal. 

With that said, I think it would be much more fun if this had a lighter grind level. It already is fun, but I find myself not forging anything else but revolite just so that we don't run out of resources when things get too hot. Even if resource management is part of the fun, I feel like it shouldn't hinder you from using your railjacks full potential (for instance). 

My conclusion is that less grind and resource management would mean more fun and smooth gameplay. This however is tied to the overall difficulty of railjack, but which I wont talk about here except that in its current state, "starting off" is way too difficult even for a full crew.

[SpiralSilver]

Resource costs (especially pustrels) are simply insane, inconceivable even. I didn't play all day every day, but I've done a fair amount of missions and just finished the Earth ones, and only now I have enough pustrels for ONE new part, which will become obsolete as soon as I drop a better one on Saturn. On the other hand this same piece requires 150 isos and I got over 1000 on these same missions, wich is enough to build everything that is avaible up to right now. It also bothers me that the repair drone, that bypasses both wait times and exorbitant resource costs, is only avaible with plat. It really isn't like you to pull off monetization tactics like this one nad I hope it wasn't intentional, I hope you will rebalance the economy before christmas.

[Borg1611]

Having now soloed all but the last mission on Earth, I have to say that the looting system in Railjack is not only the worst looting experience in the history of Warframe, but a contender for worst looting experience of any game ever created. This is 99% due to your decision to use a very limited range vacuum looting system in a gigantic space map. 

Imagine you're soloing a mission and spend a lot of it in a Crewship, which seemingly doesn't pick up loot at all. You just spent a large amount of time killing 60+ fighters, 4 crew ships and possibly did a third objective in a base of some kind. The entire time you were killing fighters with a crew ship, you picked up ZERO loot from your long effort. If you did it in Archwing, you'd have to essentially fly right through the loot, after waiting for the fighters to go through their long death animation. Since most people will shoot down a fighter then move on, even in Archwing you likely don't pick up half or more of the loot the fighters are dropping. If you did it in a crewship, you could spend the next half hour of your life trying to fly around finding the loot you should have earned as you killed the ships. It's really, really bad.

Many people may not even find the rewards you get from it worthwhile to begin with, but due to the horrendous looting system, you easily miss out on a lot of the things you should have gotten from the things you spent your time killing. 

[Otaiken]

Repair costs are ridiculous.

What's even worse is the repair drone for 50p.

What DE might not realize is that they just put a very clear price on the grind and time of repair.

So at MK2 the price of the time it takes to grind out 2x8k of basic and over 100 of rare resource is just 50p and that is with 20p for the rushing. And it only gets worse in higher tiers since repair costs inflate while drones still cost the same. I'm sorry but that is a bit insulting. Plat farming or paying money is they way to go here clearly. But this doesn't make me want to spend plat, this makes me annoyed at DE.

I don't want to trade to get through railjack progression DE, I want to play the railjack.

Edited December 15, 2019 by LocoWithGun

[BornWithTeeth]

Yeah, to carry on...

 

- DE, the frustratingly bottle-necked resource gathering makes the repair drone malarkey look an absolute staggering truckload more malarkey-licious. 

- What’s this I’m hearing about loot drops not being shared among the squad? Can someone confirm that? If that’s the case, then it’s an unintended bug, right?

- Speaking of unintended outcomes, can we get a nice concrete, explicit, exact, fully detailed and fully mechanically involved explanation of how the refining mechanic in the forge works?
 

DE, we know you like to play the cards close to your chest, but this kind of obscure approach to critical core mechanics is only going to hurt the player experience of Empyrean.