(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

[Spoogity]

My biggest and most grinding complaint so far is one part of the railjack when you first build it, requires 60 carbides to build, and so does a second piece totalling 120 for a giant space ship. A single gun for the VERY SAME SHIP requires 7000 carbides and is a fraction the size of the entire ship itself. And it's not just that. Very little copernics needed to build giant ship, THOUSANDS needed to make a reactor. I know this game prides itself on its insane grind (Vauban Prime Oxium) but this is legit getting out of hand.

[ImaNukeYourFace]

Wreckage drop rates are way too low for Vidar/Lavan and way too high for Zetki

Zetki has a 100% chance to get one wreckage of any type from an Outrider (a fairly common enemy), plus a 5% chance to drop a weapon from elite Crewships in a void node. This is a 12.5% chance per outrider at a specific wreckage of any type, plus a 1% chance per crewship at a specific weapon.

Vidar has a 5% chance to drop one weapon from a crewship, and a 6% chance to drop a reactor, engine, or shield array once per mission (does NOT drop from bonus rewards). This is a 1% chance per crewship at a specific weapon and a 2% chance per mission at a specific reactor/engine/shield.

Lavan has a 5% chance to drop one weapon from a non-elite Crewship, and a 6% chance to drop a reactor, engine, or shield array once per mission. This is a 1% chance per non-elite crewship at a specific weapon and a 2% chance per mission at a specific reactor/engine/shield.

Since the objective of the different houses is to weigh costs and benefits between them, allow us to actually get gear from more than one house so we can play with this mechanic please.

Edited December 18, 2019 by ImaNukeYourFace
Sighted regular exo crewship in void, but discovered bonus reward droptable is different from regular end-of-mission droptable

[Rogunz]

The official drop tables explain a lot about why the rewards in railjack are so awful and why better missions don't have better rewards.

Zakti gear is supposed to be the "best of the best" but it's the only gear we get to use. Non-zakti weapons are a rare drop off of crewships and non-zakti parts are only a rare mission reward. Since everything has random stats that means that unless you are extremely lucky the zakti gear you get is going to have better stats than the other houses even for stuff they aren't supposed to be good at.

This is especially a problem for reactors since avionics capacity is so important for actually improving your railjack. Vidar reactors having a 2% drop rate off of long railjack missions means that very few people are going to actually have room to make use of their avionics.

 

Everything about Avionics feels makes them feel a lot worse than mods. The seperation of them into 3 versions/ranks and hiding the good versions behind .15% chances mean that dirac is completely worthless since you can't spend it. You're never going to be able to get mods that can rank up unless you specifically go out of your way to farm the content that drops them and often isn't going to give you any other rewards.

I'll get absolutely nothing from earth at this point since I'm working on mk3 gear and have plenty of every resource but titanium. Despite that I have to go there and farm kosma cutters for the .15% chance of getting bulkhead if I ever want my railjack to have a good amount of HP. Even the uncommon version force me to farm them on earth from the elite kosma tarkis but missions are too low level for them to spawn.

If you really want harder missions to have better rewards the best versions of every mod should be available in the veil. It's fine to have them be rare drops earlier on but good versions of core mods like hyperstrike and bulkhead should be easy to obtain at that point.

 

The veil cache rewards are terrible and the only reason you would ever want to look for them is if you missed out on the spectra vandal. Getting 3 or 4 of a "rare" resource that you have hundreds/thousands of or a handful of dirac is the same as not getting a reward at all.

[Zyion]

The cost to repair wreckage is far too high. After having completed all of the Railjack nodes (most of it with a resource booster) and not spending any resources, I barely have enough Titanium to repair one Mk III wreckage. With the cost so ridiculously high, no one is going to want to repair any wreckage short of those with god rolls. I'm at the end of the current Railjack content, and I can't even experiment with builds because the cost is just too high.

For comparison, it takes more time to collect the resources to repair one Mk III wreckage than it does to complete multiple Liches or collect and unlock multiple Rivens.

[Telogor]

Holy crap these resource costs are insane.  From killing and looting an entire Veil Proxima map, I got 653 Titanium in well over half an hour of  high-level, difficult play.  Meanwhile, every single MK III item requires 12-15 thousand titanium.  This kind of progression works okay in Focus because you're constantly passively gaining Focus points, and you can equip all your unlocked nodes in a tree and all your unbounds at the same time (provided you have enough pool).  In Railjack, however, all that goes out the window.  You need 5 different pieces of MK III gear to have a high-tier Railjack, but what happened to situational weapons or experimenting with builds or trying out new salvage?  You're full-looting ~120 Veil Proxima missions just to have a viable Railjack for future New War quest content.  But what happens when you need different guns or want to upgrade your parts (because stupid RNG stats are a thing)?  It's another 24-30 missions that each take over a half an hour to complete.  That's over 12 freaking hours of time in-mission on the hardest "normal" difficulty you've thrown at us so far for EACH PART WE BUILD.  The rewards here are insanely low, and it just feels like a huge money grab because you have the 50-plat grindpass drone in the market.  It's the slimiest $&*^ move I've ever seen from Digital Extremes, only surpassing the Hema research because there's a way to get around this grind by paying.  What's next, you're going to put pay-to-win items in plat-only lootboxes?

Most Railjack resource demands are fine.  Most rare ones (Fresnels, Komms, Kesslers, Isos, Aucrux, etc) are appropriately balanced.  My issues are Carbines, Copernics, Diodes, Pustrels, Titanium, and Asterite (1440 for a Vidar Reactor MK III, when I get like 20 per mission?!).

I used to think that Dirac was way too rare, but after grinding I have more than enough, even before the increase to Dirac gain from scrapping.  Is there any way we could use Dirac to make up for a lack of another resource when repairing parts?  Since you get the resource from scrapping parts, it only makes sense that you could use it to repair parts.

I feel like you need to introduce things much better in the game.  Specific to this feedback thread, the Forge sucking up resources that you then need to refine to get them in your inventory needs to be explicitly stated to the player.  I don't want to know how much of these stupid resources I've lost to the forge.

[Ikusias]

Entire economy for Empyrean is a flaming mess:

- MK I - II - III progression completely wrecked and bypassed due to RNG^3

- bullcrap RNG on necessary avionics with no lower extreme a MK II or III reactor / engine /shield could end up drastically worse than an MK I while costing proibitively more

- investing in any part below MK III feels like a huge waste as enemies scale faster than railjack damage output

- Resource grind for repairing wrekage is out of control, requiring 10 to 100 times the resources needed for the entire freaking railjack

- predatory pay to progress practices with repair drones and dirac bundles

[Kainosh]

I need a way to cancel my repair contributions.  Similar to how we can cancel and refund in our Foundry. 

[Grig9700]

So, I hae a habit of tackling railjack solo, I enjoy spending time fighting my way through it, having to manage and juggle everything at the same time. It's genuinely fun. Issue is, when I'm done with a mission, say like just now where I took on Spiro Gap on Saturn Proxima. I spent one and a half hour battling my way through it and wow, damn that was fun, but now comes the task of flying around for 30 minutes trying to find where my loot is and... well... I can't find it. So all I got for that entire mission was 4 avionics and less than 300 of each resource... I find that, eh, moderately annoying.

I could certainly spend even more time searching for the cluster that should contain almost all of my loot but I just don't have the energy for that. Is there a way to like, I dono, show where all the loot is on the map once the mission is completed? Sorta like how we can see where the sentinel cores are after fighting an Eidalon (they usually show up almost no matter how far away they are). I'd personally really appreciate it though I certainly understand why you wouldn't want it to be the case mid battle, what with how full of stuff the screen already is. But after? When there isn't anything else around? It'd be super helpful.

Thanks for reading and hope ya'll have a wonderful day and some amazing holidays ^^

ps. I'm in love with empyrean~

[xxswatelitexx]

Railjack resources needs to be found outside of Railjack to better supplement gameplay.
When you have resources exclusive to one mode it forces progression by only that mode.

By having resources found in other modes - it allows you to play standard game and lets you progress in other modes. 
Especially when it comes to repairing and constructing railjack parts.

[MSEP1]

I’m back! Time to talk about Avionics. I’ve already given my thoughts on why battle and tactical avionics need better drop rates. Integrated Avionics need better drop rates as well for a couple reasons: 

1. These are basic mods. They are the backbone of upgrading the railjack and progressing. If we cannot acquire them, we cannot upgrade or even use this system to its full affect.

2. Imagine locking undamaged serration behind Conditioned Overload levels of RNG without the ability to use looting abilities. That’s basically the way Vidar/Zekti Hyperstrike feel. Thankfully, Lavan exists, but it’s still pretty rare. 

3. Imagine locking vitality behind Vengeful Revenant’s level of RNG. That’s Bulkhead. 
For Vengeful Revenant, it doesn’t matter as much because it’s just a stance and other comparable ones exist.

How could we fix this?

1. Boost overall drop chances for avionics. Remove mods being able to drift away in space. Buff vacuum radius.

2. Add more avionics to enemy drop tables. (Some cannot be reliably farmed because elite variants of enemies don’t spawn because of level caps on missions). This makes them more in line with regular mods that can drop from tons of enemies.

3. Give us another way to acquire avionics. (Spy missions, excavations, defense, Clan research, Syndicates, Baro Kiteer, etc.). This makes avionics more like standard farmable mods.

Thanks! Keep up the good work!

[KendoTsukikage]

it's been almost a week and this railjoke content had been the highest bugframe addition DE has put out, planes was laggy and bad but this one takes the cake.  Not only are you trying out new content, you are play testing it, and the reward....wasted hours in missions that can not be completed and because of that, wasted xp or intrinsics or w/e, and wasted drops and resources.  No talk of giving us, the free play testers, any kind of reimbursement of any kinda, past earned, or a 7 day booster of each for future grind once everything gets fixed based of the bugs we freely tested for them.  Free for DE that is...........

They also said something about Dirac being super useful and the drops are small...... if I could turn Dirac into Titanium for any cost, it would be worth getting Dirac lol... Titanium is the rarest of materials.  So rare that people have farming the very old arcwing quest to get it faster than railjoke missions...that's really baed!!

GG DE, ty for using PC as your bug testers and torture dummies, while giving nothing back for our huge service to "rushing" out the PS4, Nintendo and Xbox content so you can sell that new in game stuff on all platforms........what a time to be a founder, and even one who would have put the full $250 in if I had known warframe would still be awesome this long.... GG

[SSI_Seraph]

Can we have some actual info on the RNG ranges because this is kinda wild tbh

 

Also vidar and lavans that end up being worse than a zetki while having that 2% dropchance gating 😅

Edited December 19, 2019 by SSI_Seraph

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Is Direc supposed to be as rare as Argon crystals? Because with the amount needed to level up stuff I figured that I’d be seen about 50 per mission. But so far I’ve only had it drop about 2 times for me.

[IIDMOII]

The repair costs are too high and drop rates too low on looted components. Resource acquisition and mission rewards are all too low in comparison.

The exorbitant cost and paltry loot distribution doesn't jive with randomized stats. It's too big of a cost for something that's intended to be upgraded again with better rolled duplicates.

It seems like a gamble repairing something at those prices only to loot a +10% version the very next mission. Randomized stats only work in games where the player is constantly showered with loot. 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by IIDMOII

[Titanium_Element]

DE, Please stop this intense RNG based rewards system for Railjack, in fact, for the entire game not just the railjack.

As a five year veteran, I can tell you in my opinion that the new reward system is BROKEN.

Back the days I spend my time play the game, getting progress bit by bit and I am happily satisfied, even there was not a lot of contents and I'm always looking for more. 

Now I enter the Railjack mode feeling like gambling, even I can play this mode for like 1000 hours to finish everything.

The problem is not RNG. The problem is RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG on... you get my point.

The reward system change began since we got Riven. Player was been complaint about it since day one it drops, now it is still not in a good state, just acceptable.

And then you throw us kuva weapons. RNG based gameplay and rewards. Not good at all, but still acceptable.

Now, about the Railjack. Do you guys have any idea what kind of luck or "grind"(we are really not grind towards that, just test our luck over and over) the players need to do in order to get even one good ship part?

For example,Lets talk about a essential ship part: Reactor.

The best reactor in the game so far is [Vidar Reactor MK III] since it provide the most avionic grids so you can put more avionics in your ship to really "mod" it.

This reactor only drops at Veil Proxima as a mission reward with chance of 2% and will not drop randomly by enemies.

A fairly good team spend about 15 mins to clear a veil Proxima mission to recieve rewards. This is not considered with terrible network issue, loading time, and rewards lost by accident.

This means to get a single [Vidar Reactor MK III] , players need to spend 12.5 hours by average.

And next thing is when people get the drop, it comes with 2 randomly generated stats + 1 randomly generated trait with random stats.

If you want a god roll,  or the worst case what you get could be even worse than a MK II reactor, you know what that means? About another 12.5 hours gambling!

Not what you want again? Another 12.5 hours!

Not what you want again? Another 12.5 hours!

Not what you want again? Another 12.5 hours!

Does any one see this problem now?

What else we got in this update other than ship parts RNG?

RNG new weapon drop.

RNG to find the new story at veiled proxima.

RNG to get yet another weapon's parts on top of RNG to do the story quest first.

What's gonna be in next update?

RNG based warframe parts that provide different stats?

Please, just stop this.

I'm not sure about how many percentage of the players fell this way.

But I'm really sick and tired of this.

 

[Silent_Melody]

theres no rewards for outside of railjack we gett ferrite caches and 3k credits bundles for finishing a mission what is that? like 90% of the rewards are only meaningfull within railjack i thought this gamemode was supposed to connect the game more the way it is now it feels like it has nothing to do with the rest of the game at all give proper rewards for finishing a mission maybe endo or kuva but credits and ferrite? even on the last planet where we fight the highest level i get few thousand credits as rewards its just a waste of time for anyone who has finished the railjack content already and ye people alredy ran through it its not replayable and adding more and more rng wont make it so its just getting tedious

[ZepBladez]

Even on high level missions, the resources gained per mission vs the resources needed for MkII and MKIII weapons is far too high. Especially considering the relatively long mission times and lack of endless missions or other mission types that give higher resource payouts.

My average time to collect the resources for a single MKIII weapon is almost 6 hours, which is awful. I know it's supposed to be the end-game top-tier missions, but the missions should be torture with the difficulty, not the repetition.

My vote would be to either lower the weapon costs, or add greater mission variety that adds greater challenge for much greater payouts.

[Zorenox94]

Why did you make impossible to scrap or use a repair drone to a blueprint where you already put some resources? Now I have all of my blueprints stopped because i can't rush them with platinum. That's a good way to prevent players from using platinum, I bet that's what you wanted. Not to mention that there's a limit on the number of blueprints someone can have.
(Sorry, but I'm angry about this)

[Circle_of_Psi]

My Feedback for Railjack:
⦁    Remove the cost of Revoltie (No one likes to have to "pay" to repair, it is far too esay to run out of revolite due to bad players, period, there is no git-gud about it).
⦁    Scraping gives WAY more Dirca (250/75 is too low).
⦁    Lower cost for eveything to repair on savlage items & remove the timer (no one likes pay to win/pay to rush).
⦁    Lower cost of intrinsics to get to the Veil. As well lower the requried amount to max trees.
⦁    Incresss intrinsics on higher missions and let it sacle on player amount (4 players, gives more). 
⦁    Buff default Railjack stats overall by 50%

[MSEP1]

Let’s talk about wreckage costs (specifically MK3 variants). So the “rarer” resource costs seem fairly reasonable (fresnels, Komms, keslers). The common resource costs (Pustrels, titanium, carbides, etc.) seem like they have an extra 0.

So I’ve been playing empyrean since launch a week ago. I probably have around 15 hours invested in it. I’ve repaired two mk1 components and crafted a few sigma components. Aside from those, I have amassed around 3000 pustrels (probably 6000 including ones I’ve spent). How much does a MK3 weapon cost? 8000.

Compare that to a regular Warframe weapon which you only craft once, has no RNG stats, and doesn’t have a better variant. You typically can get everything you need within 4-8 missions lasting 5 minutes each. A railjack weapon can take you 20-40 missions lasting half an hour each to grind the resources. This doesn’t seem reasonable, especially when you can pay to skip it. That seems kind of dubious.

I propose cutting the costs of wreckage to  50% of the current values or significantly buffing the drop rates. Alternatively, other standard Warframe resources (ferrite, plastids, salvage, etc.) could replace some resources to give us a use for the millions some of us have. This would encourage people to actually invest in parts they find instead of ignoring them until they get a good roll on stats.

[Veritable_Vox]

For the love of the lotus, please up the drop/acquisition rate of some items, namely:

1. Reactors. Such an important piece of the railjack but you only get them as a fairly rare zetki drop, or a crazy rare end of mission reward for vidar/lavan. Plus after the RNG drop, you suffer terrible RNG rolls. I have yet to see a single reactor roll above 50 avionics capacity.

2. Materials. Some new crafting materials you can find in abundance, no shortage of pickups to be had, but some are oddly rare for how many we need to repair and craft railjack equipment. Mostly titanium is the worst offender, requiring 12-15k for most projects, yet the rate of acquisition is abysmal. After that its asterite (significantly) and perhaps pustrels (a little bit). After a week of playing I barely have enough titanium and asterite to repair more than a single item.

3. Avionics. Some of the worst RNG I have ever seen in this game is with avionics drops. "Void Hole" in particular is a fantastic looking battle avionic, but is locked behind being an absurdly rare drop chance (1%), from a low chance mod drop rate (10%), and a rare enemy spawn to boot (maybe 3-5 out of 100 per mission). That makes the odds of getting it .02% to .03% PER MISSION, on the highest difficulty railjack has to offer (roughly 3000-5000 max difficulty missions to 100% guarantee a drop). Many other avionics suffer the same incredibly low RNG, such as shatter burst, munitions vortex, blackout pulse, even basic integrated ship avionics. Perhaps increase the drop chance, the drop rate, make it drop from more types of enemies, or make the more rare avionics a rare mission reward.

 

I can live with occasional bugs that get fixed over time, I can deal with farming missions a few dozen times to get what I want, but the current rate of acquisition (and RNG) of so many new items is just a huge HUGE turn-off for this whole Empyrean experience. Please fix this.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Veritable_Vox

[H.Katsura_999]

Kudos on the titanium drop change. Farming it became easier but I think we overlooked something.

Before, this sucker was accumulating at the same rate as the other materials but now it became the bottle neck. 

I have all the titanium in the world but I still cant use it to craft parts. Because apparently this ones didn't get doubled, and they come from the same asteroid cache.

A good 30min run on earth will net you ~2k titanium (3 hours of playing will yield approx. 12,000~ish)

But Asterite will yield ~130 for 30 mins. (3 hours will yield 780~ish)

Meaning I still need to spend another 3 hours just to get the correct amount of Asterite with a total of 6 hours of none stop soul burning farming.

I've done it. 6-7 hours was the time I needed to craft 1 part pre-titanium buff.

Titanium buff was nice but dang it didn't change the time needed to farm the needed materials to craft 1 part.

Edited December 19, 2019 by H.Katsura_999

[Karonuva]

Wreckage (Especially tier 1 and 2) feels like a waste of time and resources and a bummer at the moment, they cost arms and legs to repair while also being on a 12hr repair timer (the 40 plat repair drone doesn't help, really sour taste from that p2w crap) when the clan research items are always better AND cost less resources to build. If you want people to experiment with Wreckage, and it is meant to make our railjacks feel special and unique, you need to:
1. Cut crafting costs down significantly (more than by 50% since new wreckage drops often)
2. Completely remove the 12hr timer. Crafting timers work for warframes and weapons because they aren't turned obsolete a mission node away, they don't work with expendable gear.
3. Remove the repair drone or cut its cost down considerably, or make it cost credits instead.

When there's a lot of variance, frequency and RNG in the gear drops you can't have timers associated with them. nor can you have insane resource investment in them either. Let people instantly use and experiment with the loot they get. My comparison would be how bungie changed legendary drops in destiny 1, the weapons came usable out of the gate but also had resource investments to fully unlock the weapon perks and stats, and they changed weapons to come with the perks unlocked out of the gate too. They did this to promote players trying the new stuff they got without being deterred from having to invest rare resources and time spent XP grinding just to be able to properly use the weapon at its intended. This is the same issue Wreckage has. Warframes work with resource investment and crafting timers because they're one and done, Wreckage doesn't work with timers and huge investment because it is extremely impermanent gear.

People won't want to invest resources into something they know they'll replace soon anyway. And people won't want to repair things because they are on a timer (a timer so long they'll get something better to drop WHILE the thing they just repaired is on the timer) and they can't use the gear they just got anyway. (This is why the expensive repair drone feels extra insidious)

Edited December 19, 2019 by CephKaron

[(PSN)Edanite]

So. To throw this here since I'm not sure where it goes.

I've started to notice that my mission rewards screen is showing booster boosted drop information but when I check the relevant rewards it turns out to be uneffected by the boosters.

For example;

My rewards screen showed 12 intrinsics yet when I checked my intrinsic profile it showed I only recieved 6 intrinsics.

I begun at 0.

My friend claims to have noticed this happen as well and further claims the reward screen is showing false results for all new resources.

So my question is does the boosters effect intrinsics?

If yes then is the booster not working as intended or is the reward screen showing far more then it should after the fact?

I've only noticed this after the hitfix today so I don't know for how long this has been happening.

[Midas]

2% drop rate of vidar reactors from mission rewards = no bueno.

Please increase this!