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Please Increase Empyrean Player Count to 8


DariusMcSwag
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The Empyrean update is massive. Players have a vast amount of space to explore and traverse all while having to juggle multiple roles at once. I have seen multiple complaints about the amount of stress that Empyrean brings to Warframe, and I believe that the solution to many of Empyrean's problems is to increase the player count. Here is a list of ways Empyrean could be improved by increasing the maximum player count to 8.

 

1 - Crew Size

Currently many players have to juggle multiple roles when playing this update. Something is always going wrong that could have been solved by adding a couple of extra hands. Many failed missions have been a result of this. By increasing the crew count to a maximum of 8, it decreases the amount of stress on a player and allows the team to more effectively multitask.

Pilot - 1

Gunners - 2

Engineers/Tactical - 2

Away Team/Support - 3

 

2 - Railjack Cost

Many have complained that a Railjack takes too long to make and costs too much to build. By effectively doubling the player count to 8, it decreases the amount of personal Railjacks needed in order to play Empyrean, which means that more players would have access to Empyrean overall.

 

3 - Objective Multitasking

Empyrean introduces multiple objectives to complete in a single mission, and sometimes these objectives are vastly spread apart. By increasing the maximum player count to 8, a full crew could complete objectives more efficiently with a better overall experience. An away team could board a Capitol Ship like a traditional 4 person mission without having to worry about babysitting the Railjack. This would also give Grineer Crew Ships more use in a mission since they could be fully crewed.

 

4 - Resource Collection

One of the best things to come out of this update is the shared resource mechanic (which should be applied to literally everything else) and is essential to the Railjack experience. However, Railjack missions are vast in size, with many nooks and hidden away locations to explore. It is commonplace to loot after a crew has completed a Railjack mission, and this can be very time consuming. By increasing the maximum player count to 8, a team could more effectively explore these areas and better balance out the amount of time spent in a given mission.

 

5 - Clan Engagement

Warframe is best when played with friends, and clans help expand this experience. Raids were special because for once in Warframe, you could play with 7 of your friends rather than just 3. Empyrean is at its heart a co op experience, with it being heavily tied to clans, and I believe that more clans would engage with Empyrean if they could have bigger groups.

 

Empyrean has plenty of potential moving forward, but the experience could be made so much better by letting more people engage with it. Railjacks feel like they are meant to house more players in them, and the gameplay reflects that.

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6 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

I always thought the railjack was way too big for only 4 players, even if there were AI's that would be added later.

Also, giving us 8 players also opens up a great way to bring raids back in the form of RIALJACK RAID MISSIONS.

I completely agree. I never got to play Raids all that much, but I remember how fun it was to have all of those players at once. However I think they shouldnt set a minimum player cap like Raids though.

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I agree but I think the point 3

1 hour ago, DariusMcSwag said:

3 - Objective Multitasking

Empyrean introduces multiple objectives to complete in a single mission, and sometimes these objectives are vastly spread apart. By increasing the maximum player count to 8, a full crew could complete objectives more efficiently with a better overall experience. An away team could board a Capitol Ship like a traditional 4 person mission without having to worry about babysitting the Railjack. This would also give Grineer Crew Ships more use in a mission since they could be fully crewed.

is exactly what DE aimed at. They don't want some people to go there while the Railjack has fun 15km behind. They want you to escort your Railjack until the objective, I think.

Edited by Chewarette
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It's not that hard, ya'll. If you are struggling, come back to it later.

 

8 people would make it trivial and probably insert a ton of extra bugs. 

 

People complain on this forum about pretty much everything. If you are MR6 and dive in, you have to be aware of your limitations and that they go away with time, that or you need to git gud. Whichever you prefer.

 

Improve your ship, improve how you play, actually forma and prepare your archwing. Bring your best weapons and a frame suited to the fight.

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I think at the moment, you might feel it is understaffed and hectic running around the ship doing multiple things (repairing,gunning,Piloting, building) but i believe that's the main idea of it. They made it so that if you get tired of doing on job, you can have something else to focus on. The only problem i can see at the moment is balancing as they made the easiest level on earth too difficult to complete with default armaments and a fully decked out archwing/gun. 

What i think is the lower levels of earth should be moderately challenging to do with default setup and archwings so that a player would consider decking out /upgrading their railjack to take on the future higher levels of the empyrean, not nightmarish hard like it is now.

I did consider posting a comment about making it a 8 player game mode but on second thoughts, think it is alright with 4. Would prefer if we could deploy multiple tenno specters to run around and do the repairs around the ship and delay enemy boarders though.

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Strongly disagree. Even with just four players, I often find myself sitting on my hands waiting for something to happen. You don't need two gunners all the time, you rarely need more than one person running repairs and that one person could also be a gunner in-between, you don't need three people on an away party and - crucially - you don't need all of these things at once. Dropping 8 players into the ship ensures that at least 5 of them will just bail out and duke it out in their Archwings. I mean no disrespect, but this is precisely the kind of "Rambo" behaviour I want to avoid in Railjack, and it's symptomatic of people sitting on their hands waiting for something to do.

People keep going on about Guns of Icarus. Why don't you guys go play some Barotrauma for a bit and see what actual large crews are like. See what happens when your Medic has nothing to do and gets bored of being beaten to repair objectives by the Engineer. See what happens when Security gets bored, and when people start putting on clown suits. The last thing you want in a game mode like this is bored crewmembers looking for something to do. If the mode appears hectic, it's this way by design. If DE didn't want players having their hands full, they could have NOT included hull breaches or crafting or boarders.

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I'd love 8 players jsut so we can have multiple railjacks.  With that, make it a bit darker, so I can see awesome pewpews flying all over the place.  Buuuuut, 8 players on 1 railjack?  No thanks.

Also, already too much lag (Granted hopefully this gets resolved).

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This, though 8 players would be too much. 6 players would be perfect. 4 is just. I should explain though, I don't PUB, I play with clan mates, so disconnects and other bugs people are worried about here aren't a problem for me. I would be perfectly fine with bigger squads being locked to clanmates only. Would give us a chance to actually play together too... Someone mentioned "lone wolfing", but my friends and I area already doing that. We rarely play Warframe together, it's basically a single player game for us. 4 players on Railjack and open world is just too limiting for co-op. It feels empty and sucks when more than 4 people are trying to play. These are a lot differet than the traditional exterminates or even survivals. You could theoretically spend all day in Railjack or Orb Vallis. Let me do that with all my friends please? 

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On 2019-12-17 at 4:19 AM, Steel_Rook said:

Strongly disagree. Even with just four players, I often find myself sitting on my hands waiting for something to happen. You don't need two gunners all the time, you rarely need more than one person running repairs and that one person could also be a gunner in-between, you don't need three people on an away party and - crucially - you don't need all of these things at once. Dropping 8 players into the ship ensures that at least 5 of them will just bail out and duke it out in their Archwings. I mean no disrespect, but this is precisely the kind of "Rambo" behaviour I want to avoid in Railjack, and it's symptomatic of people sitting on their hands waiting for something to do.

People keep going on about Guns of Icarus. Why don't you guys go play some Barotrauma for a bit and see what actual large crews are like. See what happens when your Medic has nothing to do and gets bored of being beaten to repair objectives by the Engineer. See what happens when Security gets bored, and when people start putting on clown suits. The last thing you want in a game mode like this is bored crewmembers looking for something to do. If the mode appears hectic, it's this way by design. If DE didn't want players having their hands full, they could have NOT included hull breaches or crafting or boarders.

Also, I suspect that NPC crewmembers and the Command Intrinsic are going to stack with the current four players.

So there's going to be a real chance that you might end up with 8 players, plus an AI engineer, some AI marines to resist boarding, and an AI gunner or two.

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On 2019-12-17 at 2:17 AM, Chewarette said:

I agree but I think the point 3

is exactly what DE aimed at. They don't want some people to go there while the Railjack has fun 15km behind. They want you to escort your Railjack until the objective, I think.

I think if they make it so the "exposed radiators" absolutely must be hit with Railjack cannons to be damaged, that'll change reeeeeal quick.

As to the OP - I really don't think 8 are needed. I've been farming the final mission of Earth for resources with only 2 people, and have been doing just fine. I even did it solo a few times.

There really is not so much to do in one mission that you need more than 4 people. Jump to 8 and you'll definitely have at least 2 people with nothing to actually do, so they just sit by Navigation playing their Shawzin for emotional support.

I do agree that the Railjack could fit a larger crew if the missions called for it, especially with a dedicated away team, but I feel like that just means we can get Railjack raids added to the game later.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I think if they make it so the "exposed radiators" absolutely must be hit with Railjack cannons to be damaged, that'll change reeeeeal quick.

As to the OP - I really don't think 8 are needed. I've been farming the final mission of Earth for resources with only 2 people, and have been doing just fine. I even did it solo a few times.

There really is not so much to do in one mission that you need more than 4 people. Jump to 8 and you'll definitely have at least 2 people with nothing to actually do, so they just sit by Navigation playing their Shawzin for emotional support.

I do agree that the Railjack could fit a larger crew if the missions called for it, especially with a dedicated away team, but I feel like that just means we can get Railjack raids added to the game later.

It's not about "need" it's about want. I want to fly around with all of my friends. Plus, it would be fun; add some dynamics to it. I agree that 8 is too much, but 4 is definitely too little. 

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On 2019-12-17 at 7:42 PM, ES-Flinter said:

What comes next? Weaker and less enemies, if someone plays solo???

Realistically speaking... Yes? I mean, that's more or less what Warframe already does for ground combat. Granted, enemies aren't weaker when you play solo, but they come in MUCH smaller numbers and a number of objectives are made easier, as well. Take the Interception game mode. That's CLEARLY designed to be played with a team, splitting up and covering  towers simultaneously. When played solo, however, fewer enemies attack and you as the solo player capture towers more quickly. In fact, there's almost no real reason to guard towers as a solo players. It's more practical to race the AI and capture towers faster than they can capture them back. Do that fast enough and you can eventually lap them, controlling all four towers and fighting around only a single one of yours, preventing the AI from capturing any.

It makes sense to scale difficulty based on the number of players on the team, and Warframe does this already.

 

17 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Also, I suspect that NPC crewmembers and the Command Intrinsic are going to stack with the current four players. So there's going to be a real chance that you might end up with 8 players, plus an AI engineer, some AI marines to resist boarding, and an AI gunner or two.

Eight players aside, I sincerely hope that the AI crew update will apply to teams as well. My fear right now is that DE will go with a Ghost Recon: Wildlands design, where you have AI help ONLY if you're solo and ALL the AI helpers go away the moment even a single other player joins. I had a long thread about the middle ground between "solo" and "a full team of four." For me right now, AI crew would be most helpful for when playing with one other person - the one friend I have who'll actually play Railjack with me. I ran a few missions last night, and we spent almost the entire time with just the two of us because the Railjack playerbase is crashing and there aren't enough people to fill out teams. An AI crew to handle repairs or fire the side guns would have been REALLY nice at that point, because we needed my friend at the helm and me in the Archwing Catapult dealing with Crew Ships.

My hope for AI crews is one of two things. Either DE go with the Interception design where AI crew performance degrades the more players are on the team, or with the Payday 2 design where bots buff all players in the lobby, but are replaced (and the buff lost) as players join. Or, you know, just let us use bots AND players at the same time so the Command intrinsic isn't pointless on a full team 🙂

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8 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I ran a few missions last night, and we spent almost the entire time with just the two of us because the Railjack playerbase is crashing and there aren't enough people to fill out teams.

I've been noticing this too, and it's disheartening, because... hell, I'm enjoying the content, even if it's not perfect.

Even if it's just the missions outside the Veil with this problem... it's gonna be a big problem going forward with this content, and people will just end up going solo always simply because it's more convenient. It'll be a big barrier to any newer players who come along to try Railjack, and run into a wall when trying to start out with it.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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1 minute ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I've been noticing this too, and it's disheartening, because... hell, I'm enjoying the content, even if it's not perfect. Even if it's just the missions outside the Veil with this problem... it's gonna be a big problem going forward with this content, and people will just end up going solo always simply because it's more convenient. It'll be a big barrier to any newer players who come along to try Railjack, and run into a wall when trying to start out with it.

Yup. I don't know what it's like in the Veil because my ship isn't powerful enough to last there, and I want to play MY ship. It's what the grind is for, after all. But trying to play Earth nodes is just pointless most of the time. I can sit at my bridge for 15 minutes and nobody will join most of the time. I don't have a full crew of four to bring with me and there don't seem to be enough pubbies to pad.

And I mean, not enough players in low-level zones is a common problem in MMOs, but Railjack is a bit unique. You NEED a ship in order to run missions, only high-level players will realistically have one, and high-level players will typically be playing high-level Railjack zones. So who's left providing ships for low-level zones? I understand DE not being able to deliver everything, but delaying AI crews and barring solo players and small teams from Railjack all but entirely will hurt the system's long-term viability. Not being able to find teams is the kiss of death for any team-only activity. If you let the playerbase crash hard enough, it may never recover.

Again - look at PvP.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Steel_Rook:

Yup. I don't know what it's like in the Veil because my ship isn't powerful enough to last there, and I want to play MY ship. It's what the grind is for, after all. But trying to play Earth nodes is just pointless most of the time. I can sit at my bridge for 15 minutes and nobody will join most of the time. I don't have a full crew of four to bring with me and there don't seem to be enough pubbies to pad.

But isn't that the real problem? That to many player want to use their own railjack, instead of just joining an other.

The last time I played was sunday, but if I remember it right I didn't had any problems to join a group.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Steel_Rook:

It makes sense to scale difficulty based on the number of players on the team, and Warframe does this already.

It makes sense, but isn't it also the wrong way? Until now it makes more sense to play most of the mission solo, because they are easier than public mission. Maybe it would be wiser to not reduce the amount of enemies for solo games. It would change the playstyle of many player, because they would at first try to think, if they can handle the mission solo. People who know that they are to weak to do it solo, will just switch to public.

What do you think will happen, if Railjack mission will become easier for solo player. Until now, we have to many host, because people want to use their own railjack. After the downgrade, there will be no host left for railjack. 

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