DE's questionable lRoadmap

[kapn655321]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Wow you really are young

And you're really on here just to lash out on people.
That's a gross way to live.
Bye now.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

30 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

And you're really on here just to lash out on people.
That's a gross way to live.
Bye now.

What's up with people accusing me of stuff they're doing themselves...THAT i Reply to

Edited December 29, 2019 by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, cmacq said:

They didn't "promise" anything. Some people have a real problem with how they look at roadmaps. They are not promises they are guidelines to show us what they intend to work on and should be taken as such.

Exactly. The roadmap is DE being transparent with it's players and simply sharing what they are working on. DE's mistake is in thinking most players understand what a roadmap is. Roadmaps are targeted goals, not actuals. 

In all honesty, DE should just stop being transparent with us. I hate saying that but it's just that some players don't know how to handle information anymore. All it does is add unnecessary stress to the staff and results in rushed content like Railjack. Also, some players behave as if their world collapsed because an update didn't happen at the first second of the first day. I understand young kids feeling that way but even adult content creators have done the same. I know that by not sharing the roadmap, players will complain about not knowing what's coming and will try to create a stupid controversy but I'd rather have that than people complaining about roadmaps and release dates.

[DerGreif2]

8 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

better to just keep quiet, head down and work on projects, then release once they are ready.

No. HELL NO! I want to now on waht kind of stuff they working on. In the current state (no events or anything new) and then just one one or maybe 2 "big" (if you want to call it) updates in a YEAR they will get nowhere. I would rather want more little things that things like Fortuna for example. It would be much better if they would invenst the time in small things that would came aout every 2 months instead of "here we worked on an update for a year or more that failed after a few weeks and now you have to wait a year again before you get anything you MAY like". Because thats how it is in the moment. DE needs to make a lot smaller and faster updates that is for all different kind of people. Right now they just pushing out content for one group of players. I really like the core of Warframe. I want new map sections, new enemies and so on! I really was pround when DE updated Jupiter with a new layout, enemies, a new mission type and a new boss! THATS WHY I AM HERE! Then now they lauched some kind of Archwing 2.0? And they where working on it for how long?

Also when was the last time we got a new event with a few new missions? A real event! Like time limited with new mods, armor and maybe skins! When was the last time? I cant remember honestly. And when they working on a project that we will not see for a year or longer... I really dont want them to go dark so that we have... nothing because we dont even get little events anymore.

[Teridax68]

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The thing is, you go and place your own expectations on the roadmap list. What I'm doing is simply looking at them point for point, what did we get, what did we not get. Opinions on the execution of said roadmap points is of no actual matter, because no matter how little you liked an addition or not, it was released without any specific promises on what they'd entail beforehand. That very much comes down to self-hype, there is no myth. When people build up their expectations without even having any promises or design spoilers to build that hype on it is all self made.

All of this is completely untrue: DE even released a forty-minute demo showing Kuva Liches and Railjack, which turned out to be a complete fabrication. There is clearly a problem of DE setting up player expectations here and failing to meet them, without players somehow collectively arriving at some conclusion without anything to lead into it. Conversely, you are clearly not looking objectively at DE's delivery, as noted by your prior responses, as even without attributing opinions on how much one likes or dislikes an update, the fact of the matter is that DE did not deliver many of their announced features in the manner they had framed them.

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And the kingpin system you talk about is an old old idea of it that just didnt work out. We still got the kingpin system, there will be no other kingpin system, this is what they went with in the end. Basing it on something that was mentioned 3(?) years ago when it wasnt even really in the works just isnt viable. All they did back then was spitball ideas regarding the system. And please stop using the word "promises" when you are talking about content that was just gimpsed a long way back and mentioned in some ideas. Those are not promises. The whole system has taken a massive ride through several different itterations, it is still no less the kingpin system. What can be argued is if it is good or not, it is still the system though.

This is just more apologetics, though, as you yourself are admitting that DE didn't deliver something they'd explicitly announced. Forget about the Kingpin system from three years ago, they didn't even deliver the Kuva Lich system from the Empyrean demo. I can in fact talk about promises here, as this is stuff DE said they'd release: while it's fine and natural for a feature to change over time due to evolutions in the development process, that is different from selling a visibly unfinished product that looks nothing like what was advertized, with no justification given.

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm also not sure what my paragraph says about objectivity. I'm simply saying the lich system isnt good, but it does work with the mechanics we were given. That doesnt mean it is perfect or even enjoyable. The mechanics setup works for it when it comes to parazon, kill commands, spawning the lich, killing the lich and so on. The journey however between spawning and killing him is tedious, unfun, meta-GM cheesy and several other negative things. The liches arent coming in big enough variety, the damage types and kits for liches are too few etc. The list of what is wrong with the lich system could turn into an essay. That still doesnt mean the fundamentals of the system are bad or that the system doesnt work.

But that doesn't mean the fundamentals aren't bad or that the system does work, and in both cases you are using your sole opinion in defense of that. Meanwhile, there is a far larger body of criticism that points out far more eloquently what's wrong with the Lich system, and how the system that was promised in the demo makes more sense in addition to delivering better on DE's stated goals for the game.

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And what exactly do I need to spell out regarding my opinions on the rest of the content? If I say the rest of the content additions have been spot on it would be kinda an obvious indication what I think of them. If something is spot on it tends to be good to the point where there is little criticism needed. Have they been flawless? No, they've all had their kinks, but those things have gotten fixed fast.

You don't have to spell out anything, your opinion on the matter is clear, as is the bias therein. You believe that DE's content updates this year are positive overall, with only surface-level flaws to be dealt with. This is in contrast with overall player opinion of these updates, itself supported by a declining player count. Again, I don't really see how you expect to be convincing here, given that you are arguing solely based on what you personally think of these content releases.

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And no matter, in the end the point of it all is just "what did they release and what didnt they release?", nothing else.

Sure, but even within that point, it is worth discussing whether the updates DE released this year matched up to what had been promised (or announced, I don't care for the mental gymnastics either way) in the roadmap. The point being made here is what much of what was on that board had been released in name only, with a completely different implementation, such that it cannot be said the promised/announced feature was released at all. Beyond that, though, I do think it is worth discussing the quality of these updates, because a repeated criticism has been that much of the content we've received has been rushed, often to the point of sacrificing the original intent of the feature entirely. The deeper issue here isn't that DE is failing to meet their own ludicrous production schedule, but that they are so obsessed with rushing out big-name updates as fast as possible that they are failing to realize why players cared about these updates in the first place, and in so doing have prevented themselves from adding truly enjoyable and long-lasting content to the game. Even you admitted the Kuva Lich system did not contribute positively to player enjoyment.

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd also love to see all those people you claim that think the new melee system is bad, aside from the few people at start that couldnt be bothered to adapt and gave up on it. It has been a major success since it has actually brought us far more melee choices, builds, far better balance and so many smooth stances. Most of the complaints early on was about how some people couldnt do their pointless long hours of endless, thus the system must have been broken. Complaints about content that DE have never bothered to balance around to begin with. I agree though, some weapons have gotten worse, but it is far outweighed by the number of useful and really good weapon options we've gotten. Sadly they didnt balance exalted weapons well, but that is something they can always fix.

I'm sorry, have you checked the forums at all lately? Those threads are still ongoing, so your claims here are utterly false. There are still numerous problems with Melee 3.0 and the metagame that has emerged around it, including a reduction in melee choices and builds, worse balance overall, and an enduring degree of clunkiness in stances and moves, e.g. heavy attack. These are all verifiable criticisms, by the way, so once again, I struggle to understand why you expect anyone to value your points on your opinion alone here.

[kapn655321]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

even adult content creators have done the same.

It's also bolsters their (the content creator's) income to be hyperbolic
and hysterical about it.. which sets some degree of precedent. Not to
say they aren't disappointed, but almost certainly over the top as often
as is possible.

People, especially fans of videogames that keep you chasing rewards
and efficiency, have a REAL keen eye, or outright frustration with set
goals not being turn key. Furthermore, some folks may just see it as
the kind of positive encouragement they would want as developers.
"Nothing is good enough. Work harder. We want the best from you."
...which is certainly a message that can read the wrong way.

These only explain parts of the experience of why things get heated.
On occasion, people have sunk a lot of money into the game, expecting
a result.. which while inadvisable, doesn't stop the sentiment. One
could argue that having given a platform for people's feeling to be in
such a vulnerable position, that DE are at fault in some way.

People may well just think me naive and optimistic to think that DE
don't want to make a bad videogame. However, I find it self evident
that they want to make it right, by not exhausting their creativity and
income on things that turn out not to make good enough sense to
continue or force.

Our player base has very mixed opinions as should be expected.
No one camp is wrong about their desires, but either side does get
very emotional. ..Reason being, this game is so very Very nearly,
incredibly awesome. Whether it or anything will ever be able to
achieve that, I don't think we should set ourselves up to expect,
demand, or anticipate it.. or we'll go nuts. Same to DE. They've
got to be able to pace themselves to keep this game something
they Want to do, and not something they work overtime at resenting.

They've wanted a system like railjack for many years. If it's late
because stuff happened, or they just could not bring themselves
to do another 12 hour day in front of the screen... then we don't
have to pay em' if we don't wish to. That's worth something to me.

 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

17 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

They've wanted a system like railjack for many years. If it's late
because stuff happened, or they just could not bring themselves
to do another 12 hour day in front of the screen... then we don't
have to pay em' if we don't wish to. That's worth something to me.

I know you won't see this

But railjack was not delayed

It was rushed...it's launch was worse than POE 

BUT i am 100% certain they will fix it...when everyone stops playing the game mode

That's my whole argument about DE...they could at least try to find the bugs before release the update

Edited December 29, 2019 by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk

[HintOfMalice]

8 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

my fifteen friends who are betting on it know it.

Best thing to come out of the Kuva Lich system

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

10 hours ago, peterc3 said:

10 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

roadmaps just don't work, because when something doesn't release you face backlash. better to just keep quiet, head down and work on projects, then release once they are ready.

Then tell people who are whining for timelines that they aren't being reasonable. Otherwise you are just knocking DE for listening to the community.

DE needs to stop showing things 2 years before there out.  2 years of hyping and talking and even a fake release date. 

Look at Empyrean, they hyped it for over two year,  when players are looking forward to something but have to wait that long. Hype turns to inpatients. ..and the hype dies down  and when we get it  , we're dissaponted ...

[MirageKnight]

On 2019-12-29 at 9:31 PM, Teridax68 said:

This is just more apologetics, though, as you yourself are admitting that DE didn't deliver something they'd explicitly announced. Forget about the Kingpin system from three years ago, they didn't even deliver the Kuva Lich system from the Empyrean demo. I can in fact talk about promises here, as this is stuff DE said they'd release: while it's fine and natural for a feature to change over time due to evolutions in the development process, that is different from selling a visibly unfinished product that looks nothing like what was advertized, with no justification given.

If anyone should be apologizing for the all the objectively unfinished (and by extension buggy and questionably balanced) content that the most recent major updates have foisted on us players, it should be DE - and no one else. 

DE's comprised of adults. They can (hopefully) take care of themselves. They don't need an army of fans to protect them. They're old enough to be able to accept and acknowledge mistakes and missteps and say "Hey we done screwed up, we're sorry, and we'll try and fix things as best we can."

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

12 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

roadmaps just don't work

What kind of business do you work for? Roadmaps absolutely work if you implement actual time management. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

What kind of business do you work for? Roadmaps absolutely work if you implement actual time management. 

I work for Nunya Business, we're a very private company.  

I have yet to see a game with an official roadmap that got everything out on time. feel free to throw an example my way if you have one, but based on the evidence I've seen in the past, roadmaps are usually a bad sign; a sign of promises never to be fulfilled.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I have yet to see a game with an official roadmap that got everything out on time.

You're moving the goalposts now, because it's rare to get everything out on time. The problem is that DE got nothing out on time.

[Aggh]

12 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

they need more staff. they must know this. I know it, the community knows it, my fifteen friends who are betting on it know it. the current workforce they have was never going to get even half of the things on that list done in time. they need to recruit, and yes, that takes time and means paying more wages, but they would get it all back and more as increased productivity and more helping hands means we would get smoother updates that keep people playing for longer. in the long term, they would profit.

roadmaps just don't work, because when something doesn't release you face backlash. better to just keep quiet, head down and work on projects, then release once they are ready.

 

DE is already quite large for a mid size studio with a single game in development.  Until they can ship another successful game a major staff expansion is probably too much of a risk.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Aggh

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Bethesda used to be a great developer, remember?  They put out fantastic games.  Then they started toeing the waters to see what they could get away with and now we have Fallout 76.  

DE got rid of one slot machine mechanic one time and you people are still praising them for it.  How many have they added in since?  Content has been getting shipped less and less complete with more and more game breaking bugs, with less things being fixed and more promises being unfulfilled.  It's been going downhill and official player count shows that.  Population in trade and recruit and my alliance shows that.  Fissures only being half populated show that.  Even railjack nodes are under populated considering it just came out.

Holding them accountable but sticking around instead of abandoning the game is the only thing that's going to get any improvement.  People spouting how DE can do no wrong will see more of this and more player loss.  People holding them accountable by saying screw it and uninstalling will see player loss.  People caring about the health of the game are the only people with any room to talk.  Now we're both on a horse.

[General-Pacman]

"Promised" is a strong word. What they did was show a roadmap with their intended features for the year, wich they obviously couldn't achieve. But i'm pretty sure they never said something like "We promise you, ASSURE YOU, that everything in this board will be up and running by the end of the year". And as someone already stated, if you seriously thought they would make all of that before the year ended, you are either new around here or you never payed attention to the development process of this game. This kind of delays and half-baked updates are nothing new on Warframe.

Edited December 30, 2019 by General-Pacman

[MirageKnight]

On 2019-12-29 at 10:58 PM, General-Pacman said:

This kind of delays  and half-baked updates  are nothing new on Warframe.   

So wait...just because it's normal for DE to do this...that makes it completely acceptable? Because we 're USED to this kind of behavior? 

No other developer / publisher gets away with this. Not Bethesda, not Ubisoft, not EA, no-one else. When the big boys do this, people practically riot and for good reason. Yet for some reason, DE has a "Get out of Jail Free" card and this is just so many levels of wrong.You know what? I'm just going to leave these here. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

At least these two well known content providers tell it like it is...and when a certain Irish YouTuber gets heavily critical of DE, you know something's wrong.

Edited January 3, 2020 by MirageKnight

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

All of this is completely untrue: DE even released a forty-minute demo showing Kuva Liches and Railjack, which turned out to be a complete fabrication. There is clearly a problem of DE setting up player expectations here and failing to meet them, without players somehow collectively arriving at some conclusion without anything to lead into it. Conversely, you are clearly not looking objectively at DE's delivery, as noted by your prior responses, as even without attributing opinions on how much one likes or dislikes an update, the fact of the matter is that DE did not deliver many of their announced features in the manner they had framed them.

This is just more apologetics, though, as you yourself are admitting that DE didn't deliver something they'd explicitly announced. Forget about the Kingpin system from three years ago, they didn't even deliver the Kuva Lich system from the Empyrean demo. I can in fact talk about promises here, as this is stuff DE said they'd release: while it's fine and natural for a feature to change over time due to evolutions in the development process, that is different from selling a visibly unfinished product that looks nothing like what was advertized, with no justification given.

But that doesn't mean the fundamentals aren't bad or that the system does work, and in both cases you are using your sole opinion in defense of that. Meanwhile, there is a far larger body of criticism that points out far more eloquently what's wrong with the Lich system, and how the system that was promised in the demo makes more sense in addition to delivering better on DE's stated goals for the game.

You don't have to spell out anything, your opinion on the matter is clear, as is the bias therein. You believe that DE's content updates this year are positive overall, with only surface-level flaws to be dealt with. This is in contrast with overall player opinion of these updates, itself supported by a declining player count. Again, I don't really see how you expect to be convincing here, given that you are arguing solely based on what you personally think of these content releases.

Sure, but even within that point, it is worth discussing whether the updates DE released this year matched up to what had been promised (or announced, I don't care for the mental gymnastics either way) in the roadmap. The point being made here is what much of what was on that board had been released in name only, with a completely different implementation, such that it cannot be said the promised/announced feature was released at all. Beyond that, though, I do think it is worth discussing the quality of these updates, because a repeated criticism has been that much of the content we've received has been rushed, often to the point of sacrificing the original intent of the feature entirely. The deeper issue here isn't that DE is failing to meet their own ludicrous production schedule, but that they are so obsessed with rushing out big-name updates as fast as possible that they are failing to realize why players cared about these updates in the first place, and in so doing have prevented themselves from adding truly enjoyable and long-lasting content to the game. Even you admitted the Kuva Lich system did not contribute positively to player enjoyment.

I'm sorry, have you checked the forums at all lately? Those threads are still ongoing, so your claims here are utterly false. There are still numerous problems with Melee 3.0 and the metagame that has emerged around it, including a reduction in melee choices and builds, worse balance overall, and an enduring degree of clunkiness in stances and moves, e.g. heavy attack. These are all verifiable criticisms, by the way, so once again, I struggle to understand why you expect anyone to value your points on your opinion alone here.

Which video are you refering to? I recall one old demo of RJ from last year, tossed together just before they went on stage. I cant recall any that has included the Liches. Those will also be added to the final Empyrean system, just as many other things. What we have now is the first mission phase to test it out and give feedback. We've known for over 6 months that liches and RJ would not be a thing tied together during 2019, liches unexpectadly came earlier though. I'd still like to see that video with liches in railjack.

If you wanna bring in facts atleast provide that video you talk of with liches in railjack.

The system is at its foundation very similar to SoM, which is what you said they promised it would be. The most notable negative feedback has been on the auto-death mechanic instead of getting what they wanted to sell us, actual difficulty. And the few complaints that it was group unfriendly and too easy to hinder others progress. Most of it has gotten fixed, the auto-death meta-GM cheese is still there however. Sure they had some idea long ago regarding really lengthy lich take downs that lasted for days. But that was also reconsidered long ago.

I dont need to be convincing. That is the whole point of different opinions. Different opinions doesnt change the fact (and that is actual fact) that the content was released as promised. Player to player expectation is a whole different story that is rooted in different tastes. If we are to go by taste alone, then no piece of content is ever released because some part of the playerbase will always dislike it. That is the case for all games and all content releases, you just cant make 100% of the community happy. We've also been though several threads regarding player drops, which have all turned out to be poorly understood metrics based on completely different standards to scew the numbers. That is not for this thread anyways.

Liches were rushed, the rest no. Everything else has worked from day 1 as it should this year without any visible design flaws. Empyrean cant really be included since it has been known for quite a while that the first playable part of it would be limited and buggy in order to get feedback on what they had. Which is pretty damn important seeing as how it is planned as a systemwide change for the game. Release it all in one go and too many things will break. So we have the basics of it to try balance, progress, find major bugs and so on. I'm curious which content release hasnt worked from day 1 this year? Disruption? Exploiter? Fractures? Disruption expansion? Ropalolyst? Grendel missions?

Those threads still going are mostly by the same people. The same type of people that post the same copy/past thing in every patch notes thread. Whoever thinks there is a reduction in melee choices have no clue. You have several weapons working for combo builds just as you have several weapons working for heavy attack builds, both types of building are also viable for everything. Also, who honestly thinks the new stances are clunky? The system has never been smoother with faster combos and the options to cancel mid combo if needed. The only part I do agree on is that heavy attacks are clunky, hence why I go for combo builds. But that is also a personal preference and taste, since heavy attack builds are also praised by many and as competative as combo builds when done right.

And again, that lich in railjack video would be nice to watch.

[General-Pacman]

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And again, that lich in railjack video would be nice to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3nm8RocAv4

This is the railjack gameplay shown at Tennocon 2019. If you check it in the minute 32:10, you can see the start of the lich boss fight.

Now, regarding the topic at hand, i see two major problems regarding this:

On one hand, DE were clearly waaay too optimistic regarding the features they could achieve during the year. Sadly, this is nothing new here, nor in the gaming industry in general; although one would expect them to know better at this point, specially after 6-7 years of  working on Warframe.

On the other hand, is pretty obvious that players nowadays don't have a clue on how to deal with information. That roadmap was simply a list of the features they intended to work on, nothing else. Writing a bunch of stuff on a board does not represent a promise or contract of any kind (and i'm pretty sure they never  used the word 'promised' or 'confirmed' when talking about this).

I did this same comment on another, similar thread, but after seeing all of those proposed features on the board, if anyone seriously thought they could complete all of those features in a year, they are either a new player, or they haven't payed attention to the development process of this game.

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by General-Pacman

[Teridax68]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Which video are you refering to? I recall one old demo of RJ from last year, tossed together just before they went on stage. I cant recall any that has included the Liches. Those will also be added to the final Empyrean system, just as many other things. What we have now is the first mission phase to test it out and give feedback. We've known for over 6 months that liches and RJ would not be a thing tied together during 2019, liches unexpectadly came earlier though. I'd still like to see that video with liches in railjack.

I see we're now being selective with our memory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEgRfCef3Q4

This is the video I'm referring to, by the way. It is from this year, and was meant to be a pretty concrete showcase for what we were meant to expect with Railjack and Kuva Liches. As it turned out, the "demo" was a bullshot from start to finish, as the game's recent updates have confirmed. This is also why I'm using terms as harsh as lying, because DE did lie to us with that demo, by presenting us with a product that never existed, all for the purpose of generating hype.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

If you wanna bring in facts atleast provide that video you talk of with liches in railjack.

Or, alternatively, you could've done a modicum of research, as the video is quite famous and was in fact the main hype generator for Railjack this year (it also has the trailer for Duviri). Wilful ignorance of evidence does not invalidate said evidence, it just shows you are approaching this argument in bad faith.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

The system is at its foundation very similar to SoM, which is what you said they promised it would be. The most notable negative feedback has been on the auto-death mechanic instead of getting what they wanted to sell us, actual difficulty. And the few complaints that it was group unfriendly and too easy to hinder others progress. Most of it has gotten fixed, the auto-death meta-GM cheese is still there however. Sure they had some idea long ago regarding really lengthy lich take downs that lasted for days. But that was also reconsidered long ago.

How is it in any way similar to SoM? The negative feedback has also spanned the gamut, from the auto-death mechanic to the multiple layers of grinding, to the random stats on Kuva weapons, to the duplicates, to the complete lack of originality in the grinding, to the lack of originality and dynamism of the Liches themselves. None of this has been fixed, and ultimately Kuva Liches are not the dynamic, personalized, persistent enemy we were told of.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

I dont need to be convincing. That is the whole point of different opinions. Different opinions doesnt change the fact (and that is actual fact) that the content was released as promised. Player to player expectation is a whole different story that is rooted in different tastes. If we are to go by taste alone, then no piece of content is ever released because some part of the playerbase will always dislike it. That is the case for all games and all content releases, you just cant make 100% of the community happy. We've also been though several threads regarding player drops, which have all turned out to be poorly understood metrics based on completely different standards to scew the numbers. That is not for this thread anyways.

But that is the problem: you are trying to convince me, or whoever else, that the content Warframe had this year was delivered "as promised", a claim I am contesting with evidence to support my point. Your personal belief that the content was delivered as promised, and your simultaneous attempts to muddle what it even means to promise or deliver within the context of Warframe, are both unconvincing, as they are not only unsupported, but contradicted by evidence and a larger consensus of opinion. This isn't just a case of being unable to make 100% of the community happy, this is the case of this year being especially disappointing to the community, as marked by such an exceptionally large decrease in player numbers that Warframe dropped off the top 10 most played games on Steam. All of the signs here are pointing to a lack of success, so sticking your head in the sand and dismissing them as "poorly understood metrics", as if you understood any better, is unhelpful to everyone, including the developers themselves.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Liches were rushed, the rest no. Everything else has worked from day 1 as it should this year without any visible design flaws.

This is a complete lie, as all three released warframes needed serious adjustments, as did the melee rework, as did Exploiter (the mission wasn't even functional when it launched, with one phase getting bypassed completely and the other having an approximately 50% chance of crashing the session), as did Nightwave, as did even the Ember and Vauban reworks. The only content releases that visibly weren't rushed this year were the Jovian Concord and the Wukong rework, and those are coincidentally the only two updates this year that have been near-universally lauded.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Empyrean cant really be included since it has been known for quite a while that the first playable part of it would be limited and buggy in order to get feedback on what they had.

Of course it can be included, the mode has clearly been rushed to a degree where it is doubtful feedback given now would even be usable, given that the mode is heavily incomplete, but also set in a direction DE intends to keep in spite of tremendous backlash. Empyrean wasn't forced out to receive feedback, it was just dumped to meet a schedule before the end of the year, yet again at the expense of quality and longevity. 

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Which is pretty damn important seeing as how it is planned as a systemwide change for the game. Release it all in one go and too many things will break. So we have the basics of it to try balance, progress, find major bugs and so on. I'm curious which content release hasnt worked from day 1 this year? Disruption? Exploiter? Fractures? Disruption expansion? Ropalolyst? Grendel missions?

But how is Empyrean going to be a "systemwide change for the game" when it's just an additional set of Archwing missions gated behind a massive, clan-based grind wall? This is the flaw I'm pointing out, as the Railjack we got is fundamentally different from what was announced.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Those threads still going are mostly by the same people. The same type of people that post the same copy/past thing in every patch notes thread.

Which people? We're going into full-on conspiracy theory nonsense here.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Whoever thinks there is a reduction in melee choices have no clue.

Says who? You?

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

You have several weapons working for combo builds just as you have several weapons working for heavy attack builds, both types of building are also viable for everything.

Heavy attack builds are dominant, and the new system is structured in such a way that heavy attack and combo builds will always be at odds with each other, with one dominating over the other.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Also, who honestly thinks the new stances are clunky? The system has never been smoother with faster combos and the options to cancel mid combo if needed. The only part I do agree on is that heavy attacks are clunky, hence why I go for combo builds. But that is also a personal preference and taste, since heavy attack builds are also praised by many and as competative as combo builds when done right.

You just answered your own question on clunkiness, plus there are many ongoing complaints you can easily look up here concerning how the stances still use fixed animations, and hide the fact only by throwing the player in a direction at a speed approximating normal movement. Some of the moves still have the player lurch in some direction or otherwise perform a clunky move, so DE clearly didn't really learn their lesson.

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

And again, that lich in railjack video would be nice to watch.

Then watch it. At this point, I am the second person to serve you the video on a silver platter, a video you should have made the minimal effort to research, as with all the other evidence you are pointedly pretending to ignore.

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3nm8RocAv4

This is the railjack gameplay shown at Tennocon 2019. If you check it in the minute 32:10, you can see the start of the lich boss fight.

 

Yeah figured it was that one.

Which just shows that people clearly dont follow what DE says except when it suits them. We knew shortly after that demo, that the specific part shown there would not be part of RJ this year and that liches would possibly be seperated for now, which is exactly what happened. The demo they showcased is more what their finalized version of railjack will have to offer, which is coming in 2020 with crewmember npc's and everything.

It is also kinda funny that the person that tries to prove something regarding the missed parts on the roadmap is using a demo video from half a year later as an example of what was missed from the roadmap. A roadmap where the kingpin system wasnt much more than a few letters and an aftertought. That should give them enough insight and understand about how priorities can shift.

Also, the kingpin system shown in the video isnt much different from what we have. Yeah sure, the lich claims to be 72 days old, but it is still killed at the 7th encounter. Would I want a system that lets me face my lich 7 times over 72 days? Hell no. Do I need a system with an arbitrary number such as 72 days that have no actual impact on the system? Nope.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Then watch it. At this point, I am the second person to serve you the video on a silver platter, a video you should have made the minimal effort to research, as with all the other evidence you are pointedly pretending to ignore.

See my other post.

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah figured it was that one.

Which just shows that people clearly dont follow what DE says except when it suits them. We knew shortly after that demo, that the specific part shown there would not be part of RJ this year and that liches would possibly be seperated for now, which is exactly what happened. The demo they showcased is more what their finalized version of railjack will have to offer, which is coming in 2020 with crewmember npc's and everything.

This is nothing but magical thinking, though, because even now the fundamentals of how RJ works are different from what the demo has shown. RJ wasn't announced as this grindwalled, "endgame" content, and its nature as that now is completely contrary to its stated purpose as an added dimension to our navigation and missions.

Quote

It is also kinda funny that the person that tries to prove something regarding the missed parts on the roadmap is using a demo video from half a year later as an example of what was missed from the roadmap. A roadmap where the kingpin system wasnt much more than a few letters and an aftertought. That should give them enough insight and understand about how priorities can shift.

Except the demo is congruent to the roadmap, and was meant to be a more fleshed-out version of what the roadmap proposed. It also incidentally happened to be a complete lie, hence the disappointment.

Quote

Also, the kingpin system shown in the video isnt much different from what we have. Yeah sure, the lich claims to be 72 days old, but it is still killed at the 7th encounter. Would I want a system that lets me face my lich 7 times over 72 days? Hell no. Do I need a system with an arbitrary number such as 72 days that have no actual impact on the system? Nope.

So we got the kingpin system that was promised... because you don't actually want to deal with the actual kingpin system that was promised? How does this Looney Tunes logic even begin to make sense?

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is nothing but magical thinking, though, because even now the fundamentals of how RJ works are different from what the demo has shown. RJ wasn't announced as this grindwalled, "endgame" content, and its nature as that now is completely contrary to its stated purpose as an added dimension to our navigation and missions.

Except the demo is congruent to the roadmap, and was meant to be a more fleshed-out version of what the roadmap proposed. It also incidentally happened to be a complete lie, hence the disappointment.

So we got the kingpin system that was promised... because you don't actually want to deal with the actual kingpin system that was promised? How does this Looney Tunes logic even begin to make sense?

We dont know because they've never said RJ will have this or that. We know it is planned to go system wide, that is all. Never have they gone into detail about itemization or anything. It was afterall a demo, not all of it was finalized back then. Just as how you can see the teleport function is its own thing in the gearwheel etc. Demo = lots of placeholder things and unfinsihed features.

The roadmap changed, that is all there is to it. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing of it was a lie either, because all they did was show a demo. I cant see anything specific in that demo that is different from what we got on live, aside from liches being seperated and released earlier instead of together with RJ's final phase in 2020. What differences do you see?

What Kingpin system was promised that is different from the one we have now? The video has no indication of anything different aside from a Lich that is just a sponge with no visible abilities at all really. although the spongyness can also be explained through lack of gear for the frames in the demo. If you look at the video you'll see a 72 day old lich that has evolved 3 times and been encountered 7 times by the time of his demise. The only real indication of a difference is that the system they used there was a faaaaaar outstretched one compared to ours, stretched for no real reason since the effective battle time versus the lich would be nearly the same i.e 3 levels, 7 encounters, dead lich. But it would be spread out over pointless many days as the demo shows, if those days actually are anything but fluff. And if they are only fluff statistics, then the system showcased is exactly what we got, give or take the auto-death mechanic since the presence of it or not isnt shown or indicated in the video. So what exactly was promised that we didnt get besides not being a real challenge?

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

We dont know because they've never said RJ will have this or that. We know it is planned to go system wide, that is all. Never have they gone into detail about itemization or anything. It was afterall a demo, not all of it was finalized back then. Just as how you can see the teleport function is its own thing in the gearwheel etc. Demo = lots of placeholder things and unfinsihed features.

The RJ gameplay in that demo clearly differs from what we got, though, so it's not even a question of what was told, but of what was shown, which is far more damning.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The roadmap changed, that is all there is to it. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing of it was a lie either, because all they did was show a demo. I cant see anything specific in that demo that is different from what we got on live, aside from liches being seperated and released earlier instead of together with RJ's final phase in 2020. What differences do you see?

Off the top of my head:

• Players can fight in Railjack without getting shredded.
• Railjack is visibly connected to ground missions.
• Entirely separate teams can dynamically receive new objectives to contribute to Railjack missions.
• Boarding crew enemies aren't bullet sponges.
• There are more RJ missions besides merely fighting ships.
• There is strictly no mention of RNG-statted loot, or even stratified loot.
• The persistent resource sink took the form of temporary enhancements, rather than repairs.
• There is no resource-juggling for Railjack crew, who instead gets to participate much more actively in RJ missions.
• There's none of that Requiem nonsense when fighting the Kuva Lich.
• The Kuva Lich actually acquires the ability used to spawn it, and comments on it.
• Liches have multiple classes and specializations affecting how they invade the System and approach the player.

So effectively, the Railjack we saw is significantly more open, dynamic, and functional, and presents compelling incentives to the player that do not rely on artificially-induced grind. It also looked like it would genuinely connect the game together, which the current RJ is incapable of doing. It's not even that the roadmap changed, it's that DE clearly didn't deliver on what they'd set out to do, and so without any justification. DE clearly showed or announced one product, and delivered another. Given that the demo has nothing to do with reality, and by DE's own admittance was entirely staged, it is in fact a lie. The word may scare you, as with terms such as "promise" or "evidence", but the fact remains that DE produced that video with the intent to deceive its playerbase, regardless of what good intentions they may have had.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What Kingpin system was promised that is different from the one we have now? The video has no indication of anything different aside from a Lich that is just a sponge with no visible abilities at all really. although the spongyness can also be explained through lack of gear for the frames in the demo. If you look at the video you'll see a 72 day old lich that has evolved 3 times and been encountered 7 times by the time of his demise. The only real indication of a difference is that the system they used there was a faaaaaar outstretched one compared to ours, stretched for no real reason since the effective battle time versus the lich would be nearly the same i.e 3 levels, 7 encounters, dead lich. But it would be spread out over pointless many days as the demo shows, if those days actually are anything but fluff. And if they are only fluff statistics, then the system showcased is exactly what we got, give or take the auto-death mechanic since the presence of it or not isnt shown or indicated in the video. So what exactly was promised that we didnt get besides not being a real challenge?

What about the Kingpin system as promised is similar to what we have now? I've elaborated on the differences already in a prior response to you here, so really, your whole paragraph of attempted rationalization does nothing to downplay the fact that we clearly did not get what was in that demo.