The Armor Change And How It Barely Does Anything

[DrBorris]

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth, but ever since DE talked about the armor S curve two Devstreams ago I have been skeptical. And given that the S curve they showed is representative of what we will be getting... yeah, this is barely going to dent the issue.

The most important thing to remember about armor is that it is a separate multiplier on top of health, health already being a stat that scales exponentially (although all factions share the same health scaling). This means that before, the exponential scaling of health was MULTIPLIED by the exponential scaling of armor. Comparing armor to shields, shields do scale exponentially, they actually scale considerably faster than armor, however shields are only ADDED to a Corpus's health value. Just this difference on its own is what led to the massive difference in enemy effective hit points (EHP) that we all know. And while DE is nerfing the rate of armor scaling at level 75ish, the fundamental effects of having a scaling stat multiply the value of another scaling stat still exist.

Enough confusing words, pictures tell the story better. We'll start with one we all recognize, comparing the EHP of all the factions (with the new Armor scaling).

Here we can see the relatively substantial nerf, but it also makes it clear how far armor is still out-scaling shields.

Next is a graph that shows how much more EHP an enemy with armor has than one with shields.

Again, we can clearly see how this is an improvement, but the rate at which Grineer are scaling faster than Corpus only starts to slow down after Grineer already have over 500% more EHP. Even when the diminishing returns of the new armor scaling kick in Grineer will still get more EHP per level than Corpus.

There is also the note that the vast majority of high level content sits only around level 100. As we can see from every chart above, at level 100 the difference between the then and now is negligible. Sure, once you get to the 150s the difference is pretty big, but how often were you playing at those levels? If you were hoping this may dent Kosma (Railjack) enemies a bit, I am sorry to say that Kosma enemies only have increased health therefore the armor changes will do little.

And one final note on the way DE presented the changes to armor scaling. What DE showed in the Devstream was just the multiplier that armor gave to health, all that graph represented was a magical number that exists in the background and does not directly impact gameplay. While this was relatively clear to see when you took a good look at the chart, it was a bit deceptive in that it probably led a lot of people to believe that this was the new EHP scaling for Grineer. Basically what DE showed looked a lot better than it actually was.

 

These armor scaling changes may be fine, we already have our ways of killing level 100+ enemies, but I think it should be clear that the change being made is only making armor scaling 'absurd' from being 'broken absurd'. The change will have little to no noticeable impact on the average player.

[DeMonkey]

46 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Enough confusing words, pictures tell the story better.

A formula would help as well.

E.g. 

Shields = (x*n) plus (y*n)

Armour = (x*y) times (y*n)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens, and whether it'll come about that maybe, just maybe, having stacking multipliers across everything in the game creates... an absolute mess.

[Loza03]

Don't forget the Corpus are getting shield-gating too. That's going to practically increase their EHP, since they by default have part of their health have innate 25% damage resistance, and the other part have temporary 95% damage resistance if you fail to hit their heads. That's going to even the odds some more, if just a little.

 

Regardless, I'm as much excited for the precedent this sets. Damage is no longer sacred, some immutable and problematic thing eating away at the game's very core. It's excellent that the Corpus are being buffed across the board as the Grineer are nerfed across the board. It's step one, and only time will tell if there's three steps still to take or a hundred, but the journey has at last begun.

[gluih]

There are a few different approaches, that would make a lot more sense, than what is being done.

You could just give enemies a flat amount of armor. And then you just let hp scale as much as you want.

If you want armor to be more relevant at higher levels, than it is at lower levels, you can increase it linearly and still adjust hp to whatever you want.

In the end effective hp should be roughly the same for all faction. Maybe armor should be a little higher, because there are so many ways to work around it.

[Loza03]

It's occurred to me that DE can probably change the cutoff point. If 75 proves to be too ineffective, they can likely move it down.

[DrBorris]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

A formula would help as well.

E.g. 

Shields = (x*n) plus (y*n)

Armour = (x*y) times (y*n)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens, and whether it'll come about that maybe, just maybe, having stacking multipliers across everything in the game creates... an absolute mess.

The way all of factors come together makes it pretty hard to make heads or tails of what is going on from the equations alone.

• First there is the first half of the new armor scaling equation (the old full armor scaling equation). Current Armor = Base Armor × ( 1 + ( Level ) ^ 1.75 × 0.005 )
• Then we get the new second half of the armor scaling equation that takes full effect at level 75. Current Armor = Base Armor × ( 1 + ( Level ) ^ 0.7 × 0.45 )
• Then Armor Multiplier formula, which is unchanged. Armor Multiplier = ( Current Armor + 300 ) / ( 300 )
• Now we get to the health scaling formula. Current Health = Base Health × ( 1 + ( Level ) ^ 2 × 0.015 )
• Multiply Armor Multiplier by the Current Health to find the EHP of an enemy with armor.

Shields are a bit simpler, but here we go again...

• Use the same health scaling equation. Current Health = Base Health × ( 1 + ( Level ) ^ 2 × 0.015 )
• Then the shield scaling equation. Current Shield = Base Shield × ( 1 + ( Level ) ^ 2 × 0.0075 )
• And just add those two together to get the EHP of an enemy with shields and no armor.

I bolded and italicized the important values within the scaling equations.

• The bold numbers basically represent how curved the scaling line will be. As the bold number increases above 1 the line will curve higher and higher. If the number was equal to 1 the line would be straight (not applicable here, but I have a wild hair idea about an Affinity scaling rework). And if the bold number is less than one the line will curve down.
• The italicized numbers are just a representation of how "strong" the scaling is. The higher the italic number, the faster that stat will start bending in either direction. It is also just a blatant multiplier. There are better and more mathy ways to explain all this, but I am trying to keep it as grounded in gameplay as possible.

The armor scaling equation change is pretty self explanatory, but one of the weird aspects of scaling that has always struck me is shields. While both shields and health have the same curvieness (bold number), shields scale at half the speed that health will due to the italic number being half. For the most part Corpus enemies have far higher base shields than health, but it always stuck me as odd that as Corpus get higher in level, their ratio of shields to health will get smaller and smaller (more of the EHP bar is taken up by health). I can see how asking for DE to buff enemy scaling could be seen as heresy, but I would actually like to see the shields scale faster than health does. Maybe decrease base shield amounts (this would help new players) to compensate a bit, but it makes more sense for higher level Corpus to make more use out of their special "health" modifier.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, gluih said:

There are a few different approaches, that would make a lot more sense, than what is being done.

You could just give enemies a flat amount of armor. And then you just let hp scale as much as you want.

If you want armor to be more relevant at higher levels, than it is at lower levels, you can increase it linearly and still adjust hp to whatever you want.

In the end effective hp should be roughly the same for all faction. Maybe armor should be a little higher, because there are so many ways to work around it.

I thought about this too but I wonder, due to the nature of the factions, if ehp is supposed to be greater with Grineer. They're grittier and much more hardened than the Corpus and their high tech. Robotics ehp should definitely have that combination of armor and shielding thought, just like in the Index.

[Hokibukisa]

Corpus need a nullifier nerf next.

[Dracus_Dakkrius]

8 hours ago, gluih said:

There are a few different approaches, that would make a lot more sense, than what is being done.

You could just give enemies a flat amount of armor. And then you just let hp scale as much as you want.

If you want armor to be more relevant at higher levels, than it is at lower levels, you can increase it linearly and still adjust hp to whatever you want.

In the end effective hp should be roughly the same for all faction. Maybe armor should be a little higher, because there are so many ways to work around it.

These are all great ideas. I don't think eHP should be necessarily the same for all factions, because different factions might have other advantages/disadvantages to compensate, but they definitely should scale at the same rate, which I think is what you meant. e.g. If a Grineer Lancer has twice as much eHP as a Corpus Crewman at level 1, then a Grineer Lancer should have twice as much eHP as a Corpus Crewman at level 100.

Also, another way to address the problem of eHP bloat due to enemy armor scaling is to change armor's Damage Reduction formula. This is a lot more tricky, though. Consider the following formula: Damage Reduction = Armor / (Damage + Armor). If player damage and enemy armor scale at the same rate (I know it doesn't perfectly work out like that, which is why I am wary about this solution), then the eHP of armored enemies should scales at the same rate as unarmored enemies. Allow me to demonstrate with math:

eHP = Health / (1 - Damage Reduction) = Health / (1 - Armor / (Damage + Armor)) = Health / (Damage / (Damage + Armor)) = Health * (Damage + Armor) / Damage

Consider a Grineer with 200 Health and 100 Armor, and a player that deals 50 damage.

eHP = Health * (Damage + Armor) / Damage = 200 * (50 + 100) / 50 = 600 eHP

Now suppose that Health, Armor, and damage double due to enemy level scaling and player weapon mods. So the Grineer has 400 Health and 200 Armor, and the player deals 100 damage.

eHP = Health * (Damage + Armor) / Damage = 400 * (100 + 200) / 100 = 1200 eHP

As you can clearly see, eHP has only doubled, as you would expect.

Though, another consequence of this formula is that slower-firing high-damage weapons will penetrate much more armor than faster-firing low-damage weapons. I don't know if that's something the community wants.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Ok, the problem with your graphs is that at some point for new grineer the curve stops and goes in a straight, diagonal line.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Right now a Plinx, which is possibly the best looking mastery fodder in the game, can handle up to level 100 before it kinda...fails... to make a dent. 

As it stands here, that same weapon should be able to handle at least up to 140.

The status changes however do mean that weapons like the Mara Detron and Kuva Brakk may no longer be the overpowered hand cannons they are currently. 

[HolySeraphin]

 

21 hours ago, DrBorris said:

The most important thing to remember about armor is that it is a separate multiplier on top of health, health already being a stat that scales exponentially (although all factions share the same health scaling). This means that before, the exponential scaling of health was MULTIPLIED by the exponential scaling of armor. Comparing armor to shields, shields do scale exponentially, they actually scale considerably faster than armor, however shields are only ADDED to a Corpus's health value. Just this difference on its own is what led to the massive difference in enemy effective hit points (EHP) that we all know. And while DE is nerfing the rate of armor scaling at level 75ish, the fundamental effects of having a scaling stat multiply the value of another scaling stat still exist.

Although they said they're going to increase health values they also wrote this in the forum post:

"Before: Armor, Shields and Health on an Exponential Curve
After: Armor Shields and Health on an S curve "

[HolySeraphin]

21 hours ago, DrBorris said:

And one final note on the way DE presented the changes to armor scaling. What DE showed in the Devstream was just the multiplier that armor gave to health, all that graph represented was a magical number that exists in the background and does not directly impact gameplay. While this was relatively clear to see when you took a good look at the chart, it was a bit deceptive in that it probably led a lot of people to believe that this was the new EHP scaling for Grineer. Basically what DE showed looked a lot better than it actually was.

Rebecca mentioned a few devstreams ago the actual armor values before and after the change (I think it was 2 devstreams ago). I made the math and if the proposed changes to armor are still the same then a lvl150 lancer has around 47% less effective health with the new math and a lvl100 bombard has around 25% less effective health

[DrBorris]

3 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Although they said they're going to increase health values they also wrote this in the forum post:

"Before: Armor, Shields and Health on an Exponential Curve
After: Armor Shields and Health on an S curve "

I'm... I'm not sure how I missed that. However, the points about armor scaling still stand. The third graph I showed, the one that compares Grineer and Corpus EHP, would remain identical even if DE made it so health did not scale at all. So the issue of Grineer units being extraordinarily tanky as compared to Corpus/Infested still stand.

[Steel_Rook]

20 hours ago, DrBorris said:

• First there is the first half of the new armor scaling equation (the old full armor scaling equation). Current Armor = Base Armor × ( 1 + ( Level ) ^ 1.75 × 0.005 )
• Then we get the new second half of the armor scaling equation that takes full effect at level 75. Current Armor = Base Armor × ( 1 + ( Level ) ^ 0.7 × 0.45 )

Interesting... So these are the formulae being used? I'm assuming you pulled those off the Dev Stream? I wonder why DE would call those functions exponential when the variable (level, since this is a level-scaling function) is not in the exponent. Is f(x) = x^2 exponential just because an exponent is involved? I would argue that no - it is a power function with a fixed power. The same applies here. Power functions all have parabolic graphs. If the power is greater than 1 by absolute value, the parabola is oriented vertically, i.e. on the y axis. Otherwise, the "power" turns into a root, and the parabola becomes oriented horizontally, i.e. on the x axis. Depending on the root base, you may lose all of your negative values, but since we're not USING negative armour values in Warframe this doesn't matter.

Long story short, armour progression in Warframe is NOT exponential but rather parabolic. What DE seem to be proposing here is swapping the vertical parabola for a horizontal parabola at level 75. And it's not even level 75. The two functions cross over at level ~72.641, meaning the logical point of transition to the new progression would be level 73. I suppose they could transition at 75, but it's going to be a larger jump in armour between level 75 enemies and level 76 such. Might not be large enough to notice, but I see no reason to bother. It's not like this is exposed to players in-game anyway.

So basically, DE swap from one parabola for another. The armour value will continue to grow into infinity, but the speed of grown, i.e. the first derivative, will constantly drop. I don't feel like doing derivatives presently to try and model acceleration, but I can tell just by eye that first derivative will have the variable raised to the power of -0.3 and the second derivative (the acceleration) will have a -0.3 multiplier and a -1.3 power to it, so it'll likely be a negative value overall. Which is exactly what you'd expect from a "sideways parabola."

Crude but clever. And also not an "S-shape curve," but I guess close enough to it colloquially.

*edit*
f(x) = 1 + 0.45x^0.7
f'(x) = 0.315x^(-0.3)
f''(x) = -0.0945‬x^(-1.3)

Thanks, online derivative calculation services! So yeah - like I said, positive speed, negative acceleration for all positive values of x. Armour will always increase, but ever slower the higher enemy level gets.

 

14 hours ago, Dracus_Dakkrius said:

Also, another way to address the problem of eHP bloat due to enemy armor scaling is to change armor's Damage Reduction formula. This is a lot more tricky, though. Consider the following formula: Damage Reduction = Armor / (Damage + Armor). If player damage and enemy armor scale at the same rate (I know it doesn't perfectly work out like that, which is why I am wary about this solution), then the eHP of armored enemies should scales at the same rate as unarmored enemies. Allow me to demonstrate with math:

eHP = Health / (1 - Damage Reduction) = Health / (1 - Armor / (Damage + Armor)) = Health / (Damage / (Damage + Armor)) = Health * (Damage + Armor) / Damage

So essentially:

EHP = HP + HP*(A/D) = HP*(1 + A/D)

I'm not sure that's a good idea. For one thing, you're introducing another variable to the equation that's going to alter its behaviour substantially. For another thing, you're introducing it as a denominator, which means you're creating a rational function, and those tend to spike HARD. I guess Warframe rounds damage to the nearest whole integer so we don't have to worry about excessively small amounts of damage increasing armour values drastically. Leaving basic math issues aside, though:

You're introducing absolute values into the function - specifically values which scale by level. The whole point of using percentage damage resistance rather than absolute value damage resistance is to ensure that armour retains the same mitigation value regardless of the granularity of damage taken. Whether you take 5 shots for 1 damage or one shot for 50 damage, your armour is still effective. By baking damage into the armour calculation, you end up causing EHP to vary WILDLY with incoming damage and so drop DRASTICLALY the higher the enemy levels become since enemy damage also has a parabolic progression. You're going to run into the same issue that absolute value damage resistance runs into, which is that the values needed to make it meaningful against high-level enemies make low-level enemies entirely inert to a comical degree.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Steel_Rook

[Dracus_Dakkrius]

5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

So essentially:

EHP = HP + HP*(A/D) = HP*(1 + A/D)

I'm not sure that's a good idea. For one thing, you're introducing another variable to the equation that's going to alter its behaviour substantially. For another thing, you're introducing it as a denominator, which means you're creating a rational function, and those tend to spike HARD. I guess Warframe rounds damage to the nearest whole integer so we don't have to worry about excessively small amounts of damage increasing armour values drastically. Leaving basic math issues aside, though:

You're introducing absolute values into the function - specifically values which scale by level. The whole point of using percentage damage resistance rather than absolute value damage resistance is to ensure that armour retains the same mitigation value regardless of the granularity of damage taken. Whether you take 5 shots for 1 damage or one shot for 50 damage, your armour is still effective. By baking damage into the armour calculation, you end up causing EHP to vary WILDLY with incoming damage and so drop DRASTICLALY the higher the enemy levels become since enemy damage also has a parabolic progression. You're going to run into the same issue that absolute value damage resistance runs into, which is that the values needed to make it meaningful against high-level enemies make low-level enemies entirely inert to a comical degree.

I'm aware of all the behaviors of this formula you've outlined. I'm just curious if these behaviors are something the community would be able to accept. DE seems extremely hesitant to stop enemy armor from scaling with mission level. If we can't convince them to stop armor scaling, then we have to at least convince them to change armor's damage reduction formula. The formula I've given the best I've been able to come up with. It's a formula that a number of other games use, from Mirrowind to Starsector to Path of Exile, and it's worked out okay for all those games. I would welcome other other suggestions if you have them.

[Steel_Rook]

24 minutes ago, Dracus_Dakkrius said:

I'm aware of all the behaviors of this formula you've outlined. I'm just curious if these behaviors are something the community would be able to accept. DE seems extremely hesitant to stop enemy armor from scaling with mission level. If we can't convince them to stop armor scaling, then we have to at least convince them to change armor's damage reduction formula. The formula I've given the best I've been able to come up with. It's a formula that a number of other games use, from Mirrowind to Starsector to Path of Exile, and it's worked out okay for all those games. I would welcome other other suggestions if you have them.

Do you have some references for those? Wiki pages or such? This is the first I've heard of tying damage resistance directly to damage, and I'm curious to see how those games handled these issues.

More to the point, though, I feel a change like this would require a substantially smaller spread of numbers to prevent high-level enemies from entirely ignoring player armour altogether. You have to remember that while high-level Grineer might have 7K armour, a lot of Warframes have about 200. I don't have decent data on enemy damage numbers, but a level 100 Heavy Gunner, for instance, has to be doing several thousand damage per shot.

[Dracus_Dakkrius]

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Do you have some references for those? Wiki pages or such? This is the first I've heard of tying damage resistance directly to damage, and I'm curious to see how those games handled these issues.

From: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Combat#Armor

"Physical damage is divided by Min(1 + Target's Armor Rating / Damage ; 4) to calculate Health loss of the target (i.e. damage cannot be reduced to less than 25% of the original amount)"

From: https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Armor#Mechanics

"Damage multiplier = weapon damage/(armor + weapon damage) ... Armor cannot reduce damage below 15% of its immediately previous value."

It is interesting to note that armor in Starsector is locational, and damage dealt to armor reduces armor. As a result, subsequent hits in the same location will inflict greater damage. Though, "the armor value used in the damage reduction calculation cannot be less than 5% of its normal peak value."

From: https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Armour#Relative_Physical_Damage_Reduction_.28Base_Formula.29

"Physical Damage Reduction = Armour / (Armour = 10 * Raw Damage) ... Physical Damage Reduction is capped at 90%"

I think Path of Exile is probably the most relevant game here, since it is often compared to Warframe.

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

More to the point, though, I feel a change like this would require a substantially smaller spread of numbers to prevent high-level enemies from entirely ignoring player armour altogether.

You're right about that. One of the reasons the formula works for Path of Exile is because player weapons of similar level have similar base damage and attackspeed. Meanwhile, Warframe's weapons are all over the place. With my formula, bows and snipers will be armor killers while shotguns and assault rifles will run into trouble. I can't be the one to decide if this is a desirable shift in the meta.

Though, the ability for some enemies to nearly ignore player armor with big hits could be a selling point. Highly armored Warframes can can still shrug off small arms fire, but now have to worry about bigger attacks like every other Warframe. This makes way for DE to dial back the higher end of enemy damage so that these enemies present a more equal threat to high armor and low armor Warframes.

Also, since enemy damage scales with level, player armor will have to scale like health and armor do. So, Warframe rank up bonuses will include bonus armor, and existing armor mods will need higher bonuses too.

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I don't have decent data on enemy damage numbers, but a level 100 Heavy Gunner, for instance, has to be doing several thousand damage per shot.

I can't find any data on enemy base damage numbers either, but I do have formulas on enemy level scaling: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling#Damage

Supposing that a Heavy Gunner deals 25 damage (the base damage of the Gorgon) per shot at level 8 (her base level), then her damage at level 100 should be:

Current Damage = Base Damage * (1 + (Current Level - Base Level) ^ 1.55 * 0.015) = 25 * (1 + (100 - 8 ^ 1.55 * 0.015) = ~440

Edited March 2, 2020 by Dracus_Dakkrius
somehow emojis got into my math and I didn't notice until now

[Redfeather75]

I am hopeful that it'll reward me for being more thoughtful in how I mod my weapons. No more one loadout to rule them all. My favourite gun right now has the same loadout for everything.

[Naey52Channel]

I want new enemy health shield armor and damage in future update

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

the problem isnt armor but damage of enemies..... change my mind

[Chewarette]

6 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

I am hopeful that it'll reward me for being more thoughtful in how I mod my weapons. No more one loadout to rule them all. My favourite gun right now has the same loadout for everything.

You'll just switch your Corrosive stuff to whatever is the next meta, may it be Toxin or whatever else. Gas+Magnetic may be an interesting combination in the end, if shields are really a problem.

[trndr]

On 2020-02-29 at 8:20 PM, DrBorris said:

Now we get to the health scaling formula. Current Health = Base Health × ( 1 + ( Level ) ^ 2 × 0.015 )

Seems you're forgetting health also will be on an s-curve. 

How much of a difference these changes do, only time will tell, but worst case is Corrosive Projection + Gas weapon required for both grineer and corpus. 

[ShortCat]

On 2020-02-29 at 5:15 PM, DrBorris said:

The most important thing to remember about armor is that it is a separate multiplier on top of health, health already being a stat that scales exponentially (although all factions share the same health scaling). This means that before, the exponential scaling of health was MULTIPLIED by the exponential scaling of armor.

There is a fallacy in this thought process, because calculated eHP do not matter if you can bypass or greatly reduce armor scaling with anti-armor loadouts. Slash or Viral/Slash set-ups entirely ignore armor scaling and face only HP scaling; while armor strip set-ups do not fight the combined eHP value, but reduce it in big chuncks. At the content range we are operation right now, neither of those options struggle to achieve reasonable TTKs. Stop looking at raw eHP values in a vacuum.

Armor hardly makes enemies significant more resilient, as new Kosma units show. Their durability comes primarily from increased base HP, not armor.

[Avienas]

50 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

There is a fallacy in this thought process, because calculated eHP do not matter if you can bypass or greatly reduce armor scaling with anti-armor loadouts. Slash or Viral/Slash set-ups entirely ignore armor scaling and face only HP scaling; while armor strip set-ups do not fight the combined eHP value, but reduce it in big chuncks.

Exactly, people are going freaking nuts over too many elements since yes, just like with the whole arcane guardian b.s., once armor reaches a certain point its worth degrades and its only because enemies had exponential growth that made it ridiculous while warframes in the other matter had to be a whole lot more screwed on the notion of armor stacking for durability.

Plus plenty of ways will yeet out armor and drastically drop the E-health, but enemies will still be pudge storms because of the health base they started with scaling into just as much of a retarded oblivion that you could have a fully modded kuva bramma and still take a few nuke shots to yeet even veil boarder grineer when they have 100% armor fully stripped.

Quote

At the content range we are operation right now, neither of those options struggle to achieve reasonable TTKs. Stop looking at raw eHP values in a vacuum.

Sadly people keep thinking shooting high level enemies and yeeting them super fast in the simulacrum is an easy way to ascertain if they have a effective build in regular content, which does not help that plenty keep thinking warframe is 100% hoarde shooter, when it was more like d.e. did not really polish it at all and it just degraded into such since stealth focus became ded, d.e. never focused on making enemies smarter and pretty much how they did difficulty was just have more mob enemies & making them more durable.

Quote

Armor hardly makes enemies significant more resilient, as new Kosma units show. Their durability comes primarily from increased base HP, not armor.

Exactly, its the base values that what determine how ridiculous enemies are to begin with, Which in one of my previous postings in a few threads, can pretty much be summed up as:

`600 armor is already 50% D.R. so anything above that will be already quite durable, but other factors involved in that D.R. can make it absurd.` 

...which in warframe`s case would be using other D.R. instances, but in a enemy`s cases, it tends to either be an absurd health base, if its not some weird passive that yeets damage taken(think Lephantis/Hemocyte for one example).

I mean for cripes sakes, a Kosma elite lancer has 200 ferrite armor instead of the 200 alloy armor a reg elite lancer has. But freaking has 2500 base health instead of 150 base health. Literally a 16.6~ times the freaking base is absurd which means the lowest grunt unit already has 4000ish e-health at level 1, compared to a reg elite lancer`s 250. Which is only justified that there is a whole lot less units but the durability is just ridiculous to where i rather run viral on my rail-jack busting weapons, then concern myself on corrosive for armor stripping when the health base is just that absurd.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Avienas