Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

[Damocles]

Here are my thoughts: The math is completely flawed, and DE's practice of nerfing and buffing 2 things at once is not a scientific approach
 

• Corrosive is no longer viable considering Viral out performs Corrosive against armor, while also benefiting against every other faction and enemy type
• Multiplying status by 3 (some arbitrary number DE decided) but dividing by pellets broke every high pellet count shotgun in game

Here are a few examples of broken shotguns:

1. Exergis: literally didnt change anything because it had 3 pellets per shot. I ain't no Einstein but 3/3 = 1x status
2. Tigris Prime is worse than Sancti Tigris, which has more crit than prime, and now more status too because Prime had been divided by a higher pellet count of 12 vs 10
3. Strun Wraith... It had 1 thing going for it before the changes: status at 40%! 40% at 10 pellets means you expected 4 proccs per shot. Now it's 12%, or 1 procc per shot simply because it had a high pellet count. Math isn't hard either, 3/10 is about 1/3 or less than the original values
4. Boar series, 3/8x status chance. Not a big deal since it was an automatic weapon, but in terms of performance, it was never a good gun to begin with. Now it's simply worse
5. Artemis Bow. Although it's not a shotgun (or a gun at all) it also took the full hit of the status changes. 1x divided by 7 arrows. All the negatives of the changes, but none of the 3x buffs. It was in the same place as the redeemer and cernos prime (weapons that took a multishot nerf but none of the buffs). They got their fixes later on. Cernos having 3 pellets took no hit to its performance, redeemer having 10 pellets is just as dead as the strun series, whilst Artemis bow is still dead to this day. I dont expect 3/7x to fix the bow itself. But to be real with you guys, exalted weapons all suck thanks to having no real benefits over normal weapons, but keeps the energy drain and mod restrictions.

What DE should have done:

• Original Status chance = new status chance: Benefit of the doubt, multiply status chance by pellet count instead of 3x (this would be fair grounds for all pellet counts) since you're going to divide them back down by pellet count anyways. This is only to restore the ORIGINAL weapon design. Since these shotguns aren't automatic, the multiprocc advantage is really all they have compared to automatic weapons
• Let corrosive reach 100%. Because the armor reduction is (Armor/(Armor+300)). The majority of the Damage Reduction (DR) happens around the first 30%. Meaning that last 20% is the majority of the armor (more than 50% of the functional DR). If you're astute at math, then you'll derive the function and find the slope (or value per armor) near the first couple hundred (the region of within 30%) to have a significantly higher slope (DR) than any other armor value along the graph. Had corrosive removed DR instead of Armor, 80% would have made sense. (disclaimer, the math is bit more complex)

What does both of these problems have in common?

They're both nested math. It sounds perfect when advertised on forums. Good looking on paper. But it doesnt perform since you hid Armor math and Division by pellets. Had you converted the ORIGINALLY INTENDED status chance values directly to status per pellet, both the math, the UX, the UI, and the community would have benefited. As they are now. Shotguns are dead, and it was hard to see @[DE]Rebeccamod the corinth for status on stream... (300% of a small number is still a small number)

Had corrosive stayed as intended, it would have competed against viral, and perform better against armor. Now Viral simply outperforms everything (except shields). Also the armor scaling should never have been tweaked. The problem with armor scaling was that it reached (asymptotically) to 100% DR. Instead of wasting @[DE]ScottPs time making the S curve, you could have just multiplied the entire inverse function by 0.9 to cap the DR to 90%. The enemies still scaled because health still increased by the level, and DR simply multiplies health.

So please, for the love of god, HIRE A MATH DIVISION FOR DE. Broken math makes broken games.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

• Multiplying status by 3 (some arbitrary number DE decided) but dividing by pellets broke every high pellet count shotgun in game

Here are a few examples of broken shotguns:

1. Exergis: literally didnt change anything because it had 3 pellets per shot. I ain't no Einstein but 3/3 = 1x status
2. Tigris Prime is worse than Sancti Tigris, which has more crit than prime, and now more status too because Prime had been divided by a higher pellet count of 12 vs 10
3. Strun Wraith... It had 1 thing going for it before the changes: status at 40%! 40% at 10 pellets means you expected 4 proccs per shot. Now it's 12%, or 1 procc per shot simply because it had a high pellet count. Math isn't hard either, 3/10 is about 1/3 or less than the original values
4. Boar series, 3/8x status chance. Not a big deal since it was an automatic weapon, but in terms of performance, it was never a good gun to begin with. Now it's simply worse
5. Artemis Bow. Although it's not a shotgun (or a gun at all) it also took the full hit of the status changes. 1x divided by 7 arrows. All the negatives of the changes, but none of the 3x buffs. It was in the same place as the redeemer and cernos prime (weapons that took a multishot nerf but none of the buffs). They got their fixes later on. Cernos having 3 pellets took no hit to its performance, redeemer having 10 pellets is just as dead as the strun series, whilst Artemis bow is still dead to this day. I dont expect 3/7x to fix the bow itself. But to be real with you guys, exalted weapons all suck thanks to having no real benefits over normal weapons, but keeps the energy drain and mod restrictions.

Oh god, not this again.

There is no nerf by pellet count because every weapon was applied an identical formula. It is an identical inter-weapon relationship by pellet count as they had previously which is counterbalanced between weapons by their various other statistics. The result: A statistically insignificant trendline of -0.42%. What was a direct negative correlation to the potency of the result, is the previous status chance, with a trendline of -131%.

1. The Exergis reached over 100% before and continues to do so. Due to status over 100% not being useless, it now outputs about 22.4% more procs per second on a generic 4*60% mod setup than it did prior. It's the only shotgun that got this luxury out of those that hit the baseline 100% level, yes, but it also didn't excel at status before (1.6 procs per second, oh boy), where the higher-pellet shotguns over-performed (up to 22.5 procs per second on the Boar Prime, lawdy) due to breaking the maths.
2. The Sancti Tigris was always supposed to be better net status over time than the Tigris Prime, except when the maths are broken. At the naked status chance it equated to 0.255 procs per second where the Tigris Prime equated to 0.249; not much, but ~2.6% better. The new baseline is 0.672 procs per second to the Prime's 0.6457, so its marginal benefit has improved... marginally. It just doesn't magically get worse if the status chance hits a magic threshold.
3. At your basic 340% status chance level of modding, the Strun Wraith is outputting 40.8% of its previous status proc potential. Maths aren't hard, though. The worst offender is actually the Kuva Drakgoon, which is only hitting 30.6% of its previous proc output. In fact, the Strun Wraith kept the highest proportion of all the shotguns which became nerfed at the 340% baseline.
4. The Boar Prime outstripped the most status hose-iest auto I could think of by a factor of two, once it hit magic threshold. It, along with the other 100% shotguns (bar Exergis), got reduced in order to normalise it as it should be. The regular Boar on the other hand, as with everything else in a build that didn't hit 100% chance previously, now enjoys far greater status potential than it had, assuming you weren't piling on so much extra status beyond the basic 340% that it, too, hit magic threshold despite its lower base chance.
5. A broken clock is right twice a day, and this was one of yours.
   Artemis Bow's status is in the gutter, but Ivara's not allowed to have nice things anyway. It's already a weak competitor to its closest standard weapon variant, compared to other exalteds (Regulators 625%, Artemis 268%) and now it's worse because of Split Flights not being permitted on Artemis yet fine on that closest standard, bringing the potency to a sad 120% once stacked. Why? Because of an augment which is functionally a nerf you pay for. Can't even avoid getting screwed over by it when you don't slot it, now!

[SprinKah]

Make BLAST capable of knocking enemies down again!

Something like this I think should be reasonable!

- 5 total procs

- 1 proc = accuracy loss + knockdown single enemy

- 3 proc = 3 accuracy loss stacks + knockdown enemies in an AoE

- 5 procs = 5 accuracy loss stacks + knockdown enemies in an even WIDER AoE

People think knockdowns is a problem but not really, it was a problem when IMPACT was able to cause knockdowns. BLAST isn't a mandatory status effect, you can CHOOSE to build for it or not, UNLIKE Impact, which is innate on most weapons.

Old BLAST helped a lot of weapons, mostly shotguns and launchers, which are mostly very slow weapons to be viable. Now it doesn't do anything BUT hinder your chanced of procing other status effects. The accuracy loss at 10 procs doesn't even do anything,enemies still shoot at you like normal, literally no change. Plus, it's a pretty useless effect for a combination status effect like procs. Enemies would most likely be dead by the time you got 10 Blast procs in...

 

Also, again, it makes sense that Blast knocks down enemies, I was baffled when they made IMPACT able to knockdwon enemies instead of Blast...It should've been like this...

Blast = explosions, shockwave = stagger, knockdowns

Impact = concussion, dizzyness = accuracy loss

Let's be honest here, NONE OF US, wants Impact to cause stagger at all really.... It is also an INNATE status effect, there's no removing it...I mean, SOME staggering is okay because we're literally shooting enemies with bullets at the end of the day...

Edited April 6, 2020 by SprinKah

[CopperBezel]

7 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

Half of the status benefited from raw number of procs : slash, fire, toxin, electricity, gaz and corrosive. Which made shotgun good with half of status effects.

Well, no, they did not, which is why I phrased it specifically the way I did. All damage-over-time status effects (which are what you have listed there) cared only about the projectile status chance and not the number of procs. Two heat procs with 100 damage behind them or one heat proc with 200 damage behind it were (and are) exactly the same effect. The number of procs doesn't matter. Meanwhile, one Corrosive proc is one Corrosive proc and two are two, no matter the damage value behind them. A gun with more pellets could stack more Corrosive but had no benefit for any other status. 

That left only Corrosive stacking on sheer number of procs with no regard for magnitude, and the only status for which shotguns had an innate advantage. Now Viral, Radiation, Impact, Blast, Puncture, and Cold all stack the same as Corrosive, which has been adjusted with a bigger initial effect and a cap but is still based on a raw count of procs, and now all statuses stack with something.

[MacIntoc]

@CopperBezel

If you have 2 pellet that proc 1 corrosive each, you'll get 1*26%+1*6% armor reduction. If you have 1 pellet that proc 2 corrosive, you'll get 1*(26%+6%) armor reduction.

If you have 2 pellet that proc 1 fire each, you'll get 1*n+1*n DoT. If you have 1 pellet that proc 2 fires, you'll get 1*(n+n) DoT.

I don't understand the difference of stacking except that DoT procs always do 100% of there effect for each stack and are not capped @10 stacks.

Edited April 6, 2020 by MacIntoc

[CopperBezel]

There was no such thing as a pellet that procced two Corrosive or Heat before Revised, and it's a bit outside the scope considering that the only weapons that typically can go significantly past 100% status chance are melees. It'll also never happen on a shotgun. Remember that we're comparing status before and after revised and how it applies to shotguns, which are assumed to have a large number of projectiles relative to other weapons, but deal similar DPS. A shotgun puts out a similar amount of damage in a larger number of smaller packets. In the same way, a machine gun puts out relatively more, smaller packets than a semiauto, etc. 

So we're not, and never were, talking about a single pellet proccing two Corrosive or two Heat. Neither was Steve, which is what I was explaining to GearsMatrix in the post you quoted. So this is wrong:

29 minutes ago, MacIntoc said:

If you have 2 pellet that proc 1 fire each, you'll get 1*n+1*n DoT. If you have 1 pellet that proc 2 fires, you'll get 1*(n+n) DoT.

There's no situation in which you're trading between a gun with 2 pellets of n damage and 100% status and a gun with 1 pellet of n damage and 200% status, and that's the only situation in which this is correct. A normally "balanced" tradeoff is between 2 pellets of n damage and 1 pellet of 2n damage, and this is assumed to be a significant difference between a shotgun and a rifle. If I have two pellets that proc Heat with n DoT each or one pellet that procs Heat with 2n DoT, the result is the same. One of those is one proc, the other is two procs, but it doesn't matter, because the DoT is defined only by the amount of damage that lands on procs, with no regard for how many individual procs it's broken up into.

So the difference of the stacking is exactly as simple as I said, one kind stacks by raw count of procs and the other does not. The number of actual projectiles that actually hit and trigger a status effect is the only thing that contributes to the stack. If you hold status chance the same, double the rate of fire, and halve the damage, DoT effects will be exactly unchanged, the same as the raw damage will, but effects that stack by raw number will be doubled. Correspondingly, you could increase the number of packages and reduce the status chance, and as long as the same raw number of pellets inflicted status, even though the status chance was reduced, the non-DoT stacking effects would be completely unaffected, while the DoT effects would be reduced in average damage exactly in proportion with the status chance. 

In the real game, these bullets or pellets are more likely to have a 50% status instead of 100% or whatnot, but the relationship is exactly the same. A weapon that breaks a shot into more pieces multiplies the stacking on the non-DoT status effects, but has no effect whatsoever on the amount of damage that's converted into DoTs. (Remember, a shotgun is a weapon that breaks a shot into more pieces.)

So there's no fuzzy business - Corrosive is strictly and absolutely the single and only status that ever worked this way until Revised, no exceptions whatsoever. That is no longer the case, as all status effects that are not DoTs have some stacking quality. 

[Damocles]

On 2020-04-05 at 8:23 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

At your basic 340% status chance level of modding, the Strun Wraith is outputting 40.8% of its previous status proc potential. Maths aren't hard, though. The worst offender is actually the Kuva Drakgoon, which is only hitting 30.6% of its previous proc output. In fact, the Strun Wraith kept the highest proportion of all the shotguns which became nerfed at the 340% baseline.

How did you arrive at 340%? The facts are, previously you only needed 150% to reach 100% status chance per pellet. Now that it became 12% base, a 150% status chance from mods now only provides 30% status chance per pellet. 70% of the pellets no longer procc. Since strun wraith used to be that 1 shotgun that reliably proccs a bunch of status and lacked crit/sustainable damage, strun wraith is no longer a viable weapon in my opinion

[TheLexiConArtist]

48 minutes ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

How did you arrive at 340%? The facts are, previously you only needed 150% to reach 100% status chance per pellet. Now that it became 12% base, a 150% status chance from mods now only provides 30% status chance per pellet. 70% of the pellets no longer procc. Since strun wraith used to be that 1 shotgun that reliably proccs a bunch of status and lacked crit/sustainable damage, strun wraith is no longer a viable weapon in my opinion

340% as in, 4*60/60 mods (added to the base of 100%). It's a core baseline that covers hitting 100% previously on everything above a 29.4% base status chance. Yes, the Strun Wraith needed only 250% but that's arguing specific build semantics instead of taking an overall view.

 

The fact is, proccing every pellet through cheating the proportion maths broke the sensible scale of procs per second. They did too much with, and too little without. Now, they're normalised, and pretty much on par with what a rifle's equivalent would be.

As I've shown, the penalty correlation for the outcome of this change was based on the previous status chance, so by natural extension of that, yes, the Strun Wraith will have gotten the shorter end of the buff stick in general (other than as a 100% shotgun, which all got reduced output as a result of fixing the maths).

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Le 24/03/2020 à 18:03, [DE]Megan a dit :

Gas Changes:

• Gas Effects will continue to tick radial Damage-over-Time for the average of the remaining Effect duration if their host dies. 
• Gas Status Area-of-Effect radius increases with the number of stacks, to a max of 10 stacks.
• Removed Gas damage resistance from Toxic Ancient Auras. 

 

I may be missing some smart use but Gas seems to still be trash status even after the changes quoted above.

It stopped working against Corpus (due to Toxin dot), and is now just good at killing trash tier infested, that are not an issue and can be almost as easily get killed by Fire, Fire which also provide some CC.

Furthermore those units are fast moving, so a static cloud ain't great unless you use Vauban Vortex or Khora ensare, and then your slash melee will have enough range to rekt lvl 150 Chargers or Leapers in a few seconds.

EDIT : I've tried against x8 lvl 150 Leaping Thrasher in a Vauban vortex, and the difference of the TTK with a corrosive / fire kuva Kohm vs gas is barely noticeable

 

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by MonsterOfMyOwn

[MacIntoc]

On 2020-04-06 at 11:25 AM, CopperBezel said:

So we're not, and never were, talking about a single pellet proccing two Corrosive or two Heat. Neither was Steve, which is what I was explaining to GearsMatrix in the post you quoted. So this is wrong:

So how do you interpret the 215% status chance that a Miter can reach with its charged shot and the 5 mains status mods, without multishot ?

On 2020-04-06 at 11:25 AM, CopperBezel said:

There's no situation in which you're trading between a gun with 2 pellets of n damage and 100% status and a gun with 1 pellet of n damage and 200% status, and that's the only situation in which this is correct.

That's not what i stated. I mathematicaly writed that DoT are stacking their effects the same way as corrosive does. The only difference is that corrosive make a fraction of the first effect where DoT always make 100% of the first effect.

That not mean that "one kind stacks by raw count of procs and the other does not". Both stacks by raw count of procs. Even if "raw count" is capped @10 except for DoT.

On 2020-04-06 at 11:25 AM, CopperBezel said:

The number of actual projectiles that actually hit and trigger a status effect is the only thing that contributes to the stack. If you hold status chance the same, double the rate of fire, and halve the damage, DoT effects will be exactly unchanged, the same as the raw damage will, but effects that stack by raw number will be doubled. Correspondingly, you could increase the number of packages and reduce the status chance, and as long as the same raw number of pellets inflicted status, even though the status chance was reduced, the non-DoT stacking effects would be completely unaffected, while the DoT effects would be reduced in average damage exactly in proportion with the status chance. 

That's because armor value is relative and weapon's damage value is flat. So corrosive have naturally a better scale than weapon's damage, that's all. But i don't think that DE is ready to give us a mod like "+5% target's health as damage".

On 2020-04-06 at 11:25 AM, CopperBezel said:

In the real game, these bullets or pellets are more likely to have a 50% status instead of 100% or whatnot, but the relationship is exactly the same. A weapon that breaks a shot into more pieces multiplies the stacking on the non-DoT status effects, but has no effect whatsoever on the amount of damage that's converted into DoTs. (Remember, a shotgun is a weapon that breaks a shot into more pieces.)

If the munition reach 100% status chance so each pellets reach 100% status chance. If you want to play with old status mechanics : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H330pOFOs56h2U2ZQyFoZpeaP3ovHaur2moHnmsOjMM/edit#gid=20808487

 

 

Finally, i still don't understand why you say that shotguns was good only at corrosive (and now all status's effects but DoT) and why DoTs doesn't benefit from raw number of procs.

[CopperBezel]

Look, I'm really having a hard time attempting to respond to that because your responses have a very loose connection to most of the things you quoted and I think you're misreading ... quite a lot of things honestly? 

DoTs care only about the amount of damage you give them, and do not care about the number of proc events it's broken into. This means that a larger number of projectiles at the same status chance does not change their effect. Corrosive and the other newly stacking statuses do not care about damage, and instead, a larger number of projectiles at the same status chance is a direct multiplier on the size of the stack you're creating. It's not any more complicated than this. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

22 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

DoTs care only about the amount of damage you give them, and do not care about the number of proc events it's broken into. This means that a larger number of projectiles at the same status chance does not change their effect. Corrosive and the other newly stacking statuses do not care about damage, and instead, a larger number of projectiles at the same status chance is a direct multiplier on the size of the stack you're creating. It's not any more complicated than this. 

Clarifying better:

DoT statuses are a product of the damage base of the pellet which procced, and the number of such procs accumulated.
Ergo, 10 pellets of 100 damage with 50% status chance is the same average output as 20 pellets of 50 damage with 50% status chance, as it is 10 pellets of 50 damage with 100% status chance on each.
A*B/C where A is pellet count, B is damage base, C is the status chance reciprocal (1/x).

Non-damage statuses are a product of the number of procs accumulated exclusively.
Ergo, 10 pellets at 50% status chance nets the same output as 20 pellets with 25% status chance, or 5 pellets with 100% chance. Damage base of these pellets is wholly irrelevant.
A/C where A is pellet count, C is the status reciprocal, and damage-base as B is not used.

Typed distribution of damage values affects both kinds of status as a further factoring of net procs (pellets / chance) in order to ascertain how many of the net procs per shot will be a certain specific status type.

 

So, for example, a Tigris Prime is comparable or even slightly superior to a Boar Prime in terms of damage procs (~4x fewer net procs but each proportionally ~4.6x more potent), but weaker in terms of non-damage procs (~4x fewer net procs, damage irrelevant).

[Andele3025]

On 2020-04-06 at 2:23 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Oh god, not this again.

There is no nerf by pellet count because every weapon was applied an identical formula. It is an identical inter-weapon relationship by pellet count as they had previously which is counterbalanced between weapons by their various other statistics. The result: A statistically insignificant trendline of -0.42%. What was a direct negative correlation to the potency of the result, is the previous status chance, with a trendline of -131%

Dividing by pellet count instead of reverse calculating the per pellet chance is literally a nerf by pellet count.

A tigris prime with 3x net status should have a per pellet chance of 25%, not 11%, which is a nerf by pellet count as a gun with 3 pellets remained the same as pre nerf once modded for status.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Dividing by pellet count instead of reverse calculating the per pellet chance is literally a nerf by pellet count.

A tigris prime with 3x net status should have a per pellet chance of 25%, not 11%, which is a nerf by pellet count as a gun with 3 pellets remained the same as pre nerf once modded for status.

Exergis (3-pellet) baseline: 260.44% net procs per second than old maths.

Tigris Prime (8-pellet) baseline with actual per-pellet chance: 259.14% net procs per second than old maths.

Tigris Prime (8-pellet) baseline at your per-pellet suggestion: 573.32% net procs per second than old maths.

We get it, you're unhappy that your broken 100% status output was fixed, but this fake news is getting old. You're not convincing anyone into giving you an equally busted result.

[(PSN)Irmao2Vigilante]

Pease, most of posts so far showed :

1 - Viral needs change

2 - it was a huge nerf on many shotguns - the word "buff" denotes to make something more powerful, most shotguns became weaker than before so the correct word is nerf. No speech can change facts even speech who distorts math and probability modelling. DE didn't regard for:

a) Pareto frontier and dominance - and as consequence huge loss of diversity in many game aspects - (They will disregard both concepts again on the healing workshop and kill vazarin most likelly)

b) probabilities and mechanics

3 - For God's only knows why, DE decided that status are more dangerous than Kuva Bramma. I ll tell you all, Kuva Bramma ruins most star chart missions, because it turns them into a quick run to extraction points no abilities and nothing more. Most of my clan mates and I abort mission when in a random party someone brings that cursed bow. Strange enough that's not a problem for DE, but shotguns applying status is. Maybe they imagine that Kuva Liches would kill Inaros with Bramma

4 - DE has to speak up, exam the posts and address - all issues are exposed. Sometimes i wonder if DE's is using other non-official accounts to exhaust players. Plus, this thread is more than 1 month old. They got themselves caught with all Scarlet Spear Bugs, choose to start workshop how to nerf healing (with little regard of how many hours players took to achieve certain levels). This topic seems long forgotten

 

Warframe is 7 years old, new mechanics, new storytelling will keep the player base, expect people to not grow really strong after so many hundreds or thousands of game hours is not healthy. I want to be more constructive with DE and warframe, but sometimes as a player, I also feel i receive a lot of frustrating news from DE last 2 months or so. I know DE works hard and the team talented, but call "nerf" as "buffs", call "normal abilities" as "bugs". Call the farm of Grendel reasonable. Nerf shotguns, Nerf healing and Vazarin because they work very well in Scarlet Spear... and so on

 After all COVID-19 mess, maybe DE can take the team to a resort or hotel, give them some rest and then remember they did a few things really great:

1 - Hero moments - Exploiter Orb - Can those hero moments improve all bosses and even explain how Leech Krill Survives Mars?

2- Nightwave (the current one is 6months old or more)

3- Second Dream, War within, Harrow, Umbra - Why focus the story only on Lotus? Why not have story webcomic styled in game telling about frames, their original operators ?- instead of just fragments on warframe wiki?

 

and many more things...

 

 

[(PSN)Irmao2Vigilante]

now i remembered,

Melee 3.0 nerfed many mods - e.g. blood rush, maiming strike etc. at least they some work on weapons stats to make it good. Shotguns needs this sort of care - not just pick a box and shake it hoping everything will be alright.

[thurmack]

The jump to 100% status per pellet was mathematically and logically ridiculous. I'm glad they fixed it.

I'm not sure the tripling of status adequately compensated, though, since I wasn't really using shotguns before (except the Kuva brakk) and I'm not using shotguns now (because Kuva nukor). Maybe they need some kind of additional buff. DE will be able to see if shotguns are still in use with their analytics, and will probably put something in if they are all being ghosted.

But still very glad they removed what amounted to a calculation bug.

Edited April 14, 2020 by thurmack
Clarification

[Vahenir]

I'm pretty sure beam shotguns are still broken in that they only apply one status per tick at most and were outright nerfed because of it. I'm still hoping for a fix so i can get back to using the phantasma sometime, but this feels like one of those things that have basically gone unnoticed and thus ends up left in place for the forseeable future.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

The shotgun change is a mathematical disaster. In essence, shotgun status is exactly like burst rifle status, where each pellet has a status chance. This means, you can treat each pellet like a bullet and consider the pellet count like a pseudo fire rate. This may not seem right at first, but bare with me on my explanation.

Each pellet has its own status chance. If we consider this, then we can also consider the damage from each proc to be pellet based. Take the tigris prime. It has a status chance of .1125 now. Lets say we fire for 1 second. That's 2 shots. With a Hell's Chamber build and 4 dual stats with a motus step, that's almost exactly 13 procs. With damage weights being changed, that's 4-5 procs of slash damage. Each slash proc does 35% base damage, but NOT of total, of EACH PELLET

That means, Each proc does 35% of 195 damage. This is terrible numbers, coming from a complete lack of knowledge of mechanics.

If each pellet will have an independent status chance, then the status chance should be balanced towards the dps of each pellet, exactly like a rifle. Think of shotguns like an EXTREMELY fast burst rifle. Each pull of a trigger shoots an instantaneous burst of bullets each doing total base damage/pellet count. With this, you should've just balance it as a burst weapon.

I know WHY you made this change. Your engine cannot support the formula of the old status chance, because when you have status chance over 100%, then the engine gives you imaginary numbers. With this, a change was required in order to allow for status chance over 100%. Would it not have been better then to instead make the formula capped and simply add the numbers at the end?

Concept Formula: Use the new formula AND the old formula together.

Now, how do you implement this without it messing up status chances above or below 100%?

A Threshold. 

There's 2 kind of thresholds. The one that drops to 0 at the mark and one that drops right after the mark.
The one I want is a threshold that acts like a lightswitch. This is the proposed formula

It looks complicated, because it is. This formula ensures 2 things. A, the current formula you use is maintained if it is the better amount. B. the old formula takes over when it supersedes the new one. C. the formula doesn't create imaginary numbers after 100% D. The extra status chance is given to the player

With the changes to status effect in general, slash based shotguns got a heavy nerf, since their damage weight is now competing equally with dual stat elementals, the primary source of status chance. On top of that, all DoT procs got a nerf with the exception of Heat after its recent buff. This includes gas shotguns, which are now the butt of any goof joke build. This new formula brings shotgun status back to its former glory, with the status changes mitigating the increased power from over 100% status chance.
Here is the formula applied to the Tigris Prime, a weapon hit extremely hard by these changes. m is the status multiplier from mods.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ndrq3ewsmm

The formula uses the best of both. If the chance per pellet with the new formula is greater than the old, it is used. If the old formula is greater than the new, IT is used. I highly suggest this as a possibility for the true status chance formula for shotguns.

[MacIntoc]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I know WHY you made this change. Your engine cannot support the formula of the old status chance, because when you have status chance over 100%, then the engine gives you imaginary numbers.

I don't think so. If they wanted to keep the old method, they would have used this formula to calculate the pellet's status chance :

Pellet's Satus Chance=Floor(SC)+(1-(1-(SC-Floor(SC)))^(1/P))

SC=>total weapon's status chance
P=>base pellet count

[(PSN)Crixus044]

5 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

I don't think so. If they wanted to keep the old method, they would have used this formula to calculate the pellet's status chance :

Pellet's Satus Chance=Floor(SC)+(1-(1-(SC-Floor(SC)))^(1/P))

SC=>total weapon's status chance
P=>base pellet count

This works as a different revised formula, but wouldn't work as well. But like I said, old formula had to be changed,  either your way, my way, or DE's way.

It's kinda like the revised formula I did but you made the scaling even more radical

That won't work because all the status chance above 100% would be nigh useless until you reach 200% since it would be distributed by the pellet count. I suspect they considered this. This is where my formula comes in handy. It benefits status chance under 100,  benefits reaching 100% and benefits above 100%.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

You might want to look at Modified Munitions. They add 60% Status Chance for 9 Capacity while 60/60 mods also add 60% but also add a element damage and cost 7 Capacity.

Also, Marked Target doesn't seem to work while in Archwing mode but works on ground.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

On 2020-04-08 at 2:07 PM, CopperBezel said:

Look, I'm really having a hard time attempting to respond to that because your responses have a very loose connection to most of the things you quoted and I think you're misreading ... quite a lot of things honestly? 

DoTs care only about the amount of damage you give them, and do not care about the number of proc events it's broken into. This means that a larger number of projectiles at the same status chance does not change their effect. Corrosive and the other newly stacking statuses do not care about damage, and instead, a larger number of projectiles at the same status chance is a direct multiplier on the size of the stack you're creating. It's not any more complicated than this. 

the number of procs determine the number of dots, if u have low damage but ether high fire rate, or high status, the amount of dots will increase causing more dps

if u cant rap that around ur head then idk what to tell u 

if a weapon lost status by 70^ then they lost 70% of thier dps if they were built for heat status or slash status or hell even toxin 

if i have a gun that does 1000 damage and only does heat 

and i have a gun that does 100 damage x 10 and does only heat 

and both weapons have the same fire rate and 100 status they will do equil dps

[CopperBezel]

Oh my god, no. Please, I'm not even the only one who's explained this. "Number of DoTs" is literally meaningless. You can't not understand that. You could, however, easily misunderstand my post and be arguing with me for that reason. But I'm guessing that the reason you're arguing is also not related to the original reason for raising the distinction, so....

[(PSN)Irmao2Vigilante]

So, some of the main points so far:

1. Huge nerf on shotgun with 30% status chance or greater and number of pellets > 3. DE allowed the previous method for so long and they launched new shotguns fully aware of the method and even create diversity based on it. The change on methodology affected balance and diveristy previously defined. The equation choosen to attempt to rebalanceotgun sh only worked when pellet number is smaller or equal 3. Overall, there is a huge loss of diversity for shotguns as many more burst and auto weapons outclass most shotguns as status weapons. (Pareto Front reduced)
2. Beam Shotguns like Phantasma didn't use the previous method so the changes made them stupidily weak. Therefore, as they behave as beam weapons, to revert the changes seems reasonable
3. Viral is overpower and magnetic is really weak because all enemies have health, once shield is neutralized enemies are quick disposed due multiple stacks of viral whereas magnetic only work on shield and not health
4. Fire is doing too many things
5. DE hasn't addressed this thread for more than 45 days, so why i'm still caring about it?

 

Did i forgot something?